When Rajaat made his 15 Champions do you think he had the "champion making process" perfected from the get go, or is there a possibility that he had "test subjects" prior to Borys and the gang? If so, would or could have these "Alpha Champions" survived? Be it due to the Warbringer casting away these failures, them escaping destruction at there creators hands, or that they were locked away in a magical prison or banished to another dimension.
Thoughts?
If you do illegal research on thinking beings, you should be ready to euthanise your failed creations.
Same for Rajaat: if he did make such unwanted creations at first, then they are no more.
But I think he didn't make prototypes per say. I think that by the time he created his first Champion he was so good with magic he didn't need prototyping. But I do think that the Champions were not all created at the same time and that each new one created benefited from Rajaat's experience and the long years that passed, so that he improved on the perceived mistakes he made with each one of them.
if he did make such unwanted creations at first, then they are no more.
But I think he didn't make prototypes per say. I think that by the time he created his first Champion he was so good with magic he didn't need prototyping. But I do think that the Champions were not all created at the same time and that each new one created benefited from Rajaat's experience and the long years that passed, so that he improved on the perceived mistakes he made with each one of them.
I don't find that Rajaat attempting the creations of champions prior to his prized 15 all that improbable. I have a hard time accepting that he nailed the process with out some sort of experimentation. I'm not proposing that he tried dozens of times and in turn had dozens of failures, but I'd say he had at least met with several "imperfect creations". Of those creations I'd say it would be an interesting concept that one of them had survived and escaped to a remote area of Athas.
Its always extremely silly when scientists in works of fiction act in the way you're describing: creating imperfect genetically-engineered humans and then emprisonning them under the lab, forcing the scientist to hire someone to feed daily and wash the unwanted creature, digging in the wallet for the lab's research.If you do illegal research on thinking beings, you should be ready to euthanise your failed creations
I agree with this to an extent in regards to the modern day world. I don't think Athas has a civil humanities commission protecting the rights of sentient beings though. :P
Plus, didn't Dregoth pretty much do this same exact thing with the first generation dray?
Also euthanasia of failed genetic experiments is not moral or ethical thinking in play: its simple number-crunching and protection from the authorities. The kind of evil person in fantasy fiction that loves to torture and "muahahahah" all day long is not an archetype of the real world. Even a scientist without a conscience, without a shred of morality and willing to break all ethical barriers would still side with efficiency in all matters, including getting rid of stuff - humans included - that is of no use anymore.
There's a difference: Dregoth sees himself as a god to the beings under him and has such will act in godly ways, including sparing lives when he shouldn't.
The same god that is trying to incite the dray of Kragmorta to attack New Guistenal in order to kill them and raise them as undead? Sounds more as if he's trying to correct the mistake of letting them live all this time and reap the benefits of adding them to his undead horde more than anything.
Also euthanasia of failed genetic experiments is not moral or ethical thinking in play: its simple number-crunching and protection from the authorities. The kind of evil person in fantasy fiction that loves to torture and "muahahahah" all day long is not an archetype of the real world. Even a scientist without a conscience, without a shred of morality and willing to break all ethical barriers would still side with efficiency in all matters, including getting rid of stuff - humans included - that is of no use anymore.
I was more addressing the "If you do illegal research on thinking beings" portion of your reply than anything else.
Anyway, I view it more as that one of these "alpha/proto champions" could have escaped before Rajaat had a chance to dispose of it. At that point I think the Warbringer couldn't be bothered with tracking it down due to having more important matters to attend to.
Anyway, Rajaat had the power of a God and is basically beyond stats, and he gave divine power to the Champions. I don't think that it is a repeatable process.
However I imagine that not all powerful beings in the Cleansing Wars were Champions. Personally, I imagine the Sorcerer-Monarchs being like Sauron, and Rajaat being like Morgoth. In both fantasy worlds, there are lots of 'lieutenants' that could have powerful magics bestowed upon them by Rajaat and the Champions. They could be very old, (and very undead), but like Athasian undead, I think each one would be a bit unique, and there would be no assembly line process to make them.
That is your idea?
Rajaat had the power of a God and is basically beyond stats, and he gave divine power to the Champions. I don't think that it is a repeatable process.
I wasn't asking if the process could be repeated. What I was stating was that it could be speculated that Rajaat had tried the "champion making process" on a being(s) prior to the original 15/16 champions.
Wasn't Hamanu the last Champion Created?
Why do you mention Hamanu? Yes he was the last. Rajaat saw imperfections in each of his works, and eventually saw new ones in Hamanu, his last champion. That's why he made Sadira.
Anyway, Rajaat had the power of a God and is basically beyond stats, and he gave divine power to the Champions. I don't think that it is a repeatable process.
Sysane did not mention another being creating new champions but Rajaat making prototype champions before he made the current champions, and that those might still be alive today.
However I imagine that not all powerful beings in the Cleansing Wars were Champions. Personally, I imagine the Sorcerer-Monarchs being like Sauron, and Rajaat being like Morgoth. In both fantasy worlds, there are lots of 'lieutenants' that could have powerful magics bestowed upon them by Rajaat and the Champions. They could be very old, (and very undead), but like Athasian undead, I think each one would be a bit unique, and there would be no assembly line process to make them.
Me and NytCrawlr had this conversation the other day about exactly that, and we came up with this:
When Rajaat started the preserver Jihad (770 years before the Cleansing Wars) he had what the TSR books refer to as defiler warlords acting as generals for his armies. Some text refers to Myron being one of those defiler warlords at the time and becoming a champion later on.
So we can assume that Rajaat had followers with high levels, that he gave them immortality, and swords to three of them. I say give them immortality because that's the only way for Myron to live long enough to become a champion. So some of the listed champions were once defiler warlords, while others were not. It can be assumed that there were defiler warlords during the Preserver Jihad (which also lasted through part of the Cleansing Wars) that didn't make the cut and that Rajaat didn't turn into champions. Now maybe only the three sword wielders were made immortal, but if every defiler warlord was made immortal, then its alltogether possible that those immortal defiler warlords lived through part of the Cleansing Wars and fought side by side with Rajaat's champions.
Merek the Wrong - who served under Hamanu but wasn't fighting trolls but preservers instead - probably was such a defiler warlord.
Why do you mention Hamanu? Yes he was the last. Rajaat saw imperfections in each of his works, and eventually saw new ones in Hamanu, his last champion. That's why he made Sadira.
I mentioned Hamanu becuase I wanted to discredit my entire post with an unrelated comment. Actually I think I misunderstood some of the post a bit. Please don't evicerate me for that... thanks.
Sysane did not mention another being creating new champions but Rajaat making prototype champions before he made the current champions, and that those might still be alive today.
I thought he was talking about a prototype champion process being used to create NEW champions... I think I was reading it wrong...
Me and NytCrawlr had this conversation the other day about exactly that, and we came up with this:
When Rajaat started the preserver Jihad (770 years before the Cleansing Wars) he had what the TSR books refer to as defiler warlords acting as generals for his armies. Some text refers to Myron being one of those defiler warlords at the time and becoming a champion later on.
So we can assume that Rajaat had followers with high levels, that he gave them immortality, and swords to three of them. I say give them immortality because that's the only way for Myron to live long enough to become a champion. So some of the listed champions were once defiler warlords, while others were not. It can be assumed that there were defiler warlords during the Preserver Jihad (which also lasted through part of the Cleansing Wars) that didn't make the cut and that Rajaat didn't turn into champions. Now maybe only the three sword wielders were made immortal, but if every defiler warlord was made immortal, then its alltogether possible that those immortal defiler warlords lived through part of the Cleansing Wars and fought side by side with Rajaat's champions.
Merek the Wrong - who served under Hamanu but wasn't fighting trolls but preservers instead - probably was such a defiler warlord.
Very cool, I think there is room to develop the green age as a great setting for a wargame system. There are also hints that there is a Tolken-esque depth to the mythology behind Rajaat and the heroes who fough against him. Aren't the Kaisharga(sp) fron Ur-Draxa undead generals from Borys' army?
-Justin
I mentioned Hamanu becuase I wanted to discredit my entire post with an unrelated comment.
Now thats funny :evillaugh
Aren't the Kaisharga(sp) fron Ur-Draxa undead generals from Borys' army?
They are generals of his army in Ur-Draxa, but I don't think they were the ones invovled in Borys' war with the dwarves.
I mentioned Hamanu becuase I wanted to discredit my entire post with an unrelated comment. Actually I think I misunderstood some of the post a bit. Please don't evicerate me for that... thanks.
LOL. There will be no head-biting or face-stabing.
I wrote the question because I was actually confused as to your meaning. Now I can see you were confused as well...Borys fought dwarves during the Wars. Then the Wars stopped and Borys was made into the Dragon. Right after, the Lens was stollen by two dwarven knights. Borys mentions that he created his kaishargas for the express purpose of dispatching the two knights, if they ever were to be found one day. Borys mentions that he can't destroy the knights on his own, even if the curse is lifted. The kaishargas are there for that moment, which does happen in the novels. There is no indication that the beings selected to undergo the kaisharga transformation process were nothing more than select Ur-Draxa citizens.
Sysane, you ask if weither or not there could have been prototypes to the champions, but what if Rajaat never made any but instead experimented broadly to see what he would later need to include in the champion transformation process?
Rajaat confers immortality on some, if not all, of the defiler warlords that serve him during the Preserver Jihad and oberves the effects: can they grow in power fast enough so as not to get killed by the opposition? Does immortality turns them insane? Do they need an embedded drive to accomplish their mission? Is there a need to program a form of control so they cannot turn against him?
The answers to those questions, gathered in the 770 years of the Jihad that elapsed before the beggining of the Cleansing Wars, could have served to help Rajaat determine the requirements for the champion process he wanted to establish.
We could say the lure of power was so strong in the defiler warlords that it convinced Rajaat he didn't need to program a form of control in his champions, that the unlimited power and the right goals would keep them in check.
Considering the evidence of an immortality process (Mon Adderath), it is quite possible Rajaat made some of his warlords, champions etc. immortal = immune to aging.
Good point. Irikos most likely under went this immortality process.
I know that some subscribe to the theory that the Champions were immortals as well, but my belief is that it was Rajaat who began the Champions on their way to dragonhood. Game mechanic wise I feel he brought them all to stage one of the dragon metamorphsis. I don't think it was till centuries later that Borys & Dregoth truly understood what the Warbringer had done to them which they later shared with the rest of the would be SKs.
Sysane, you ask if weither or not there could have been prototypes to the champions, but what if Rajaat never made any but instead experimented broadly to see what he would later need to include in the champion transformation process?
Interesting point. It could be that the immortality process that Rajaat created was the prototype to creating the Champions/Dragons.
Still, I do think that he may have experimented on some subjects prior to the SKs in order to refine the first stage of the dragon metamorphsis.
Myron was one, and we know he later became a champion, so Rajaat awarded him even more power than he had in the past.
Irikos, besides the blunder of mentionning he eradicated orcs, was also there in the pre-champions times and later became a champion.
Rajaat really liked those two, having given them two of the three swords prior to making them champions...
Tell me if I don't make any sense...
I also don't subscribe to the belief that Irikos was a champion more than I feel that he was an immortal defiler warlord.
I also don't subscribe to the belief that Irikos was a champion more than I feel that he was an immortal defiler warlord.
That's a little...ambiguous. BoA says his duty was to kill orcs (a TSR mistake but a sure indicator he was a champion), also the same book says he was around before the time the champions were first created, just like Myron (PAoA), so that's why I suggest those two were defiler warlords before the Cleasing Wars and transformed into champions by the time of the Wars.
That's my theory, in a nutshell. Like you can see it doesn't interfere with the idea of actual prototypes.
Sorry, I made myself unclear. I wasn't saying all of this to indicate your theory is wrong. I was kinda exposing my own, which doesn't inherently exclude yours. I should start a new thread
No prob. I thought you brought this into it to rebuke my theory.
That's a little...ambiguous. BoA says his duty was to kill orcs (a TSR mistake but a sure indicator he was a champion), also the same book says he was around before the time the champions were first created, just like Myron (PAoA), so that's why I suggest those two were defiler warlords before the Cleasing Wars and transformed into champions by the time of the Wars.
That's my theory, in a nutshell. Like you can see it doesn't interfere with the idea of actual prototypes.
I believe that Myron was a Champion which was later pointed out in the revised DS box but it didn't list Irikos as one. I know that 2e BoA stated that he was a champion but that was published prior to the revised DS box set. My line of thinking is if he truly was a Champion they would have confirmed it in the newer material.
Either way, as you pointed out, it doesn't interfere with my theory of prototypes. I just wanted to explain my reasons for not beleiving Irikos was a Champion.
Maybe the truth will never be known!
I like the ambeguity in the names of the Champions. Also, since Hamanu replaced Myron there may have been more than one orc champion as well.
This was going to be my suggestion, that there could have been two champions dedicated to wiping out the orcs. Though, I would have to check the timeline to make sure events transcribe in a chronologically logical order.
As every DM I'm customizing my campaign
In fact I'm just in the process of creating a new champion (actually, this champion would be like Oronis, someone that started as a Champion and regreted its task, and turned totally to a different path, a good one). This champion also rules a city (give you a
if guess the city's name hehehe) that's been hidden long since the first days of the cleansing wars. BTW the city is not a paradise...The city just had its veil removed after some recent after-shocks, and the city's just started to open its gates for foreigners...
Any one has some ideas about how to explain this new champion in a canon-fit way?
Any ideas also for a culture in which we base the new city?
Any one has some ideas about how to explain this new champion in a canon-fit way?
Maybe he was a the first Champion of the pixies and since the pixies were able to flip around dimentionally (my idea) he learned how to deal with dimentional travel as well and was able to escape the notice of Rajaat when he quit his job.
Any ideas also for a culture in which we base the new city?
No idea. Maybe you could base it on the Nascans.
No idea. Maybe you could base it on the Nascans.
er.. who are/were the Nascans?
The people who did the lines at Nazca .
Good Idea... did some research on then... got enough to start writing...
thanks, both of you
The people who did the lines at Nazca .
Now I will have people on Athas to persecute...
You could mix them up with the Paracas culture (there is a desert storm named after them: la Paraca) (they were based in the same area, if not in the same times).
Even if you don't, take a look at their funeral practices...
They had cool necropolises (or necropoleis) where they buried ALL their dead (not only the wealthy ones) with EVERYTHING they would need in the afterlife.
That could result in well equiped undead (or deathless, if you want them co-operating with the Champion to defend the city)...
Now I will have people on Athas to persecute...
You could mix them up with the Paracas culture (there is a desert storm named after them: la Paraca) (they were based in the same area, if not in the same times).
Even if you don't, take a look at their funeral practices...
They had cool necropolises (or necropoleis) where they buried ALL their dead (not only the wealthy ones) with EVERYTHING they would need in the afterlife.
That could result in well equiped undead (or deathless, if you want them co-operating with the Champion to defend the city)...
Why are you going to persecute then? :fight!:
Great tip about the funeral.. I'll take a look for sure. By the way.. if all were buried there.. there must be some undead down there, dwarf ones, for example.
Why are you going to persecute then? :fight!:
Great tip about the funeral.. I'll take a look for sure. By the way.. if all were buried there.. there must be some undead down there, dwarf ones, for example.
I AM the Peruvian Persecutor (see signature).
Those two cultures flourished in the department of Ica, south of Lima
Peru Map
Therefore they are Peruvian.
Therefore I persecute those among them who seek refuge on Athas.
So yeah, about those prototype champions ;)
he might have augmented someone to be his first champion and sent them out to begin their work and if they died he would just make another one and along the way he got better at it.
I mean Borys almost got himself killed by the dwarfs so why is it unconcievable that one of the earlier champions of rajaat got themselves killed by some other race.
Rajaat just used trial and error and due to the fact that he is so strong in his magic even some of his errors where good enough to get the job done.
The thing I just thought about was why didnt rajaat just create an army (lets stay conservative with 50) of champions and set them loose as a pack against all non humans and then just pick them off on his own when he was done.
Also the idea that rajaat liked those 3 champions he gave swords to is kinda watered down , cuz he was gonna have hamanu kill all of them anyway. so he must not have liked them that much , he prolly jsut thought they where good at what they where doing so he made them a little better with a better sword.
The thing I just thought about was why didnt rajaat just create an army (lets stay conservative with 50) of champions and set them loose as a pack against all non humans and then just pick them off on his own when he was done.
Defiling: they couldn't work withing a few miles of each other, certainly not within feets, for long periods of time without running out fast of ground to defile. A champion would have to work alone and far away from others. Besides, the creation of each champion turned the sun a little darker each time, so maybe Rajaat got the drift it might be wise to limit his production of them, or else see the climate change drastically again and endanger the halflings this time.
Also the idea that rajaat liked those 3 champions he gave swords to is kinda watered down , cuz he was gonna have hamanu kill all of them anyway. so he must not have liked them that much , he prolly jsut thought they where good at what they where doing so he made them a little better with a better sword.
Like you say, he doesn't actually like any of them. He even despises humans, pyreens too. They were just extra loyal and competent, why he gave them the swords from amongst the other candidates.
well maybe rajaat never recognized a failure.
Rajaat comes across as a perfectionist to me. It appears he has low tolerance for failure. Hence why he replaced Myron with Hamanu, and that defilier who was researching the outer planes (I can't remember his or his replacements names. Someone will chime in I'm sure). Theres also that little thing called the Rebirth he deemed a mistake and started the whole Cleansing Wars over in the first place.
No, I can't see the Warbringer settling for anything that he would consider flawed.
The thing I just thought about was why didnt rajaat just create an army (lets stay conservative with 50) of champions and set them loose as a pack against all non humans and then just pick them off on his own when he was done.
The 15 or so Champions that Rajaat made have managed to give him plenty of trouble over the years. He may not be dead, but he's not really in good shape. My prefered explanation is that he realized that the more Champions he made the more trouble he'd have keeping control.
Maybe Rajaat could remove the immortality and perhaps other powers (the swords, etc.) that he gave his most trusted lieutenants, but becoming an advanced being was permanent. Again, he didn't like the risk of having more advanced beings walking around than he had to have.
Maybe the sun could only power so many dragons at once (or whatever exactly happens to make the sun go darker when a dragon is made). Rajaat wanted to be able to create other advanced beings later on, so he only made so many the first time around.
Maybe creating the champions was part of another of Rajaats experiments. He wanted to see how quickly the sun could recover from the champion creation process, or if it could recover at all. With this idea, Rajaat could be imprisoned almost by choice. Instead of trying to find some way to keep his powers from having any effect on the world, he would have his champions worry about how to do it by getting them to imprison him. Rajaat himself could draw a lot of his power from the sun, and by being locked away he hopes to help the sun recover faster. This also might explain why he kills a few champions every time he comes out of imprisonment.
Maybe it pained Rajaat to create the dragons because of the obvious negative effect they had on the sun, and he only wanted to make as many as he thought he'd need.
Just some rambling ideas.
myron and irikos and whoever were likely rajaat's favorites/most promising ones back in the preserver jihad, and went from "defiler warlord" to "champion" when the cleansing war began (assuming they survived). Maybe Irikos was made a champion, assigned orcs, attacked bodach, was wasted, and abalache-re was created to replace him. the official timeline is kinda crummy anyway (giuestenal still had water on its shores, for one thing).
troy denning himself said there could easily be more than the original 13 or 15 champions, assigned other races, so go with that.
myron and irikos and whoever were likely rajaat's favorites/most promising ones back in the preserver jihad, and went from "defiler warlord" to "champion" when the cleansing war began (assuming they survived). Maybe Irikos was made a champion, assigned orcs, attacked bodach, was wasted, and abalache-re was created to replace him. the official timeline is kinda crummy anyway (giuestenal still had water on its shores, for one thing).
"Could have been" doesn't necessarily translate to "actually were". In my campaign I just have it that Irikos was an immortal defiler/fighter who was basically an enforcer to Rajaat or a back up to the Champions if they needed assistance in their appointed tasks. I feel that it just down plays the uniqueness of the SKs and cheapens them by stating that a score or so of them existed.
Having it that there was ONLY 15 sounds more ominous and awe inspiring than the realization that there were dozens of Champions of Rajaat IMO.
"Ho hum...... It's Blorak Brownie Smasher, the 65th Champion of Rajaat"
If you sprinkle a few others like Irikos (orcs are already assigned to someone else after all), Pennarin, and new ones like Barien, you get to about 25.
25 is not too large.
And I'm sorry but liking the number 15 is basically numerology. Besides, 13 is the real number after all. Denning had 13, the Setting Box added 2 others. Book of Artifacts added 1.
25 is not too large.
And I'm sorry but liking the number 15 is basically numerology. Besides, 13 is the real number after all. Denning had 13, the Setting Box added 2 others. Book of Artifacts added 1.
So why stop at 25? Why not round up to an even 30 or more?
One could very well justify that every single sentient creature in the MM could have had a champion created to cleanse them as well as having a replacement.
15 is not the actual number: there are more, and "legal" champions at that. I counted them way back, remember?
Besides, I said sprinkling a few more, not adding a score more. Beyond the champions that exist I add 3-4 others. No more.
Ok, I updated the count and its lower than what I said in my prior post. When I counted it all about a year ago I had other people like Merek the Wrong and stuff. Had to remove them.
Legally there is 17 of them, and apparently two of them had the task of eradicating orcs (that's a mistake from the guy who wrote BoA). I must point this count uses the Book of Artifacts and Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, so anyone who rolls up their eyes should stop reading now.
15 numbered champions + Hamanu (who is a replacement for one of those) = 16
+ Irikos = 17
If you count Abbey's work...
+ Pennarin + former Butcher of Dwarves (sounds like the Neksos from TotDL) = 19
If you count everything that was ever created for Dark Sun then obviously there is more than the official 16 champions, if not then there are only 16.
Though I prefer The Neksos from TotDL to be the predecessor to Borys and not actually be Borys, the characterization just doesn't mesh, unless he did an about face in personality and changed his name to Borys later.
Irikos should be counted as an official champion since he is in the timeline and since he did get one of Rajaat's swords, otherwise it's like creating 3 swords and giving two of them to generals and then one to a lieutenant, which is ludricous to me.
Official Champion List
Damn WotC and their redirecter that breaks crap.
It's just dub dub dub crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=198
I like Barien, Mind Flayer Dessicator. Someone might add another.
There is a big difference between the Novels and RPG Books, I try my best to create an Athas that includes both, but I take the Novels more serious then other Products.
My Athas will remain like I feel it should be. This is the best way to go I think. Create your own Athas which follows your feel for this unique World, don't let the "official" Word destroy the flavour, because those Products aren't flawless or Omniscient. I read once that all the published materia was only a propositions for DMs to help them create their own World, so use it only this way, don't stick to the Rules.
If you want 50 champions, well then you have them ;), develope them and show them to us, I'm sure we will find something very usefull in your Work.
Like many of the events in the prism pentad novels, the final fate of Scourge of Rkard could be different depending on a DM's campaign. Should Rikus have been killed defending Tyr or in battle ....
See, you dont have to stick with the canon. That what I made.
Eric: Were there other "Champions" that Rajaat made which have not been "documented"?
Troy: Certainly. But even I don't know who.
That makes me more relaxed now... since I won't be crucified for creating a new a champion and a new city-state
Being it a simple matter of wanting or not to add a new champion, I'll try to stick the most I can to canon material... (so, no space halflings, hamsters, and dwelfs.., sorry to say that dawn).
Do you guys have any suggestion to explain how could a city-state remain for so long not known (since it's free year 11, it would be recently discovered... due to some after-shocks.)
Irikos should be counted as an official champion since he is in the timeline and since he did get one of Rajaat's swords, otherwise it's like creating 3 swords and giving two of them to generals and then one to a lieutenant, which is ludricous to me.
I don't find it at all that far fetched that Irikos wasn't a champion. If you look under the Scorcher entry in PAoA its history supports this theory:
The Silencer was given to the left hand of Rajaat, a warlord named Irikos, who was later killed after destroying the city of Bodach. The second weapon, a long sword called the Scorcher, was given to the right-hand of Rajaat-a warlord named Myron who later became known as Myron the Troll Scorcher, 4th Champion of Rajaat. And the third was the Scourge, which was given to Borys of Ebe. With the Silencer lost following Irikos' death, Rajaat relied heavily on Myron during his war with the preservers of Athas, and with the help of the Scorcher Rajaat succeeded. Next came the Cleansing Wars
This would seem to indicate to me that Irikos was killed shortly before the start of the Wars against the rebirth races and was never charged with the slaying of the orcs(At least not during the Cleansing Wars anyhow). It also pointedly states that Myron became the 4th Champion of Rajaat where Irikos remained just a warlord and the "left hand" of their master. This would also further indicate to me that Irikos was no champion, just and extremely loyal and trusted follower of the Warbringer.
Actual quote from Psionic artifacts of Athas book
See, you dont have to stick with the canon. That what I made.
In your own games, certainly not ...
However, cannon does serve as the common baseline for discussion ... if we were to ignore cannon altogether, then ... well, things'd get out of sync very, very quickly.
Well,
That makes me more relaxed now... since I won't be crucified for creating a new a champion and a new city-state
Being it a simple matter of wanting or not to add a new champion, I'll try to stick the most I can to canon material... (so, no space halflings, hamsters, and dwelfs.., sorry to say that dawn).
Do you guys have any suggestion to explain how could a city-state remain for so long not known (since it's free year 11, it would be recently discovered... due to some after-shocks.)
Depends on where you put it. DS2 found that there was room to flesh things out to the north, south and west ... South an
I think it's almost certain that there were many more champions, prototypes or otherwise, that are never mentioned. Just by the example of the most common picture of Athas, in the Dark Sun logo, only a small patch of the planet appears to be defiled, and the rest is green. And the only area dealt with in the novels and campaign materials are the tablelands and the surrounding areas. There could be prototype or reformed champions hiding out everd West are pretty much out of range, but I suppose you could put one really far to the north, beyond the Lava Gorge, last sea and such. One thing to keep in mind: That way lies the equator. The Tablelands are in the southern hemisphere.
There's also the other side of the Sea of Silt. Reread the geography description in the Wanderer's Journal sometime ... the Sea of Silt is in the middle of the Tablelands ... there's another chain of ringing mountains to the east, and land between those mountains and the Sea of Silt. Never been expanded upon. As a note: I belive you can find contradictions to that geographical description in later products ... it's certainly never renforced anywhere else.
Of course, if you're bound and determined to drop the thing in the middle of the Seven Cities, then you're going to have a bit more explaining to do, you're right.
I was thinking to place the city in the hinterlands, in the Forest Ridge limits (but inside it), on the extreme north of the Ringing Mountais, exactly between "Star Rock" and "Dry Spring"...
This would seem to indicate to me that Irikos was killed shortly before the start of the Wars against the rebirth races and was never charged with the slaying of the orcs(At least not during the Cleansing Wars anyhow). It also pointedly states that Myron became the 4th Champion of Rajaat where Irikos remained just a warlord and the "left hand" of their master. This would also further indicate to me that Irikos was no champion, just and extremely loyal and trusted follower of the Warbringer.
The same text does not say that this Borys of Ebe is a champion, or the Dragon, either. And the text in BoA says he had a sacred duty to eradicate a race and he succeeded. He tackled the dissident city of Bodach afterward. Thuse he did lived during the Cleasing Wars as a champion.
Besides, the way the text is written does not tell you one thing: the Preserver Jihad continued during the Cleansing Wars, for while. Merek the Wrong, under the service of Hamanu laid siege to the preserver fortress of Akarackle.
The same text does not say that this Borys of Ebe is a champion, or the Dragon, either. And the text in BoA says he had a sacred duty to eradicate a race and he succeeded. He tackled the dissident city of Bodach afterward. Thuse he did lived during the Cleasing Wars as a champion.
Besides, the way the text is written does not tell you one thing: the Preserver Jihad continued during the Cleansing Wars, for while. Merek the Wrong, under the service of Hamanu laid siege to the preserver fortress of Akarackle.
Borys of Ebe is well documented as a champion in several other sources. To state yet again that he was a champion would have been redundant. Plus its stated two pages later in PAoA under the Scourges' entry that Borys was a champion. Yet again, why repeat the same info under the Scorcher only to repeat it over and over again in the same source?
As for BoA its obvious that the author of the Silencer entry didn't know much about Athas or DS. The material in PAoA was printed after BoA and was obviously trying to correct the discrepancies of the Silencer write up. I'll go with the material that is a soild DS only source book over a generic all world encompassing one as cannon. I mean come on, BoA actually refers to the champions as "captains" of Rajaat.
Your right about the text not telling you that the preserver jihad continued during the wars, but one thing it did state was that Irikos did die before the start of the Cleansing Wars.
Even if you don't subscribe that he died before the Wars (I'm not a fan of that either), going by the offical time line Irikos died sacking Bodach over 300 years after Uyness slayed the last orc. That doesn't really help the argument that he was the Champion tasked with slaying the orcs if you ask me. If he was, he did a lousy job of it and we know that Rajaat doesn't tolerate failure of any sort. Why would he have not killed him?
If you view that he's a champion in your campaign thats fine. I'm not saying theres any wrong in that. What I am trying to get across is that there's more evidence supporting that he wasn't a champion over that he was.
I'd like too, but we seriously need to create a new thread, because weither or not Irikos is a champion or whatever won't help you in knowing weither or not there were champion prototypes.
From Eric's conversation with Troy Denning:
Jon, so this means that Troy Denning said that there were more Champions which have not been documented by him, I don't think he knows the stuff published after him. See, still as he told me 13 is the number. Anyway I asked him also about a List but he said he would have to search but was busy, but he made one. I just wish I would have it, then we would have some more "official" Champions ;).
Do you really want to discuss this, Sysane?
I'd like too, but we seriously need to create a new thread, because weither or not Irikos is a champion or whatever won't help you in knowing weither or not there were champion prototypes.
I agree, but this thread diverted from the original topic long ago with talk of new city-states and what not. I figured might as well stick where the topic of Irikos started instead of repeating myself in another thread.
Flip, but the contradictions in the official Materia are sometimes too big. The people writing new Books aren't as well informed as they should be, they make faults, plan for the future, forgetting sometimes the past, which is sad. Take Ktandeo for example, officially he is a Halfling (Artifacts of Athas) LOL.
He could have used a polymorph spell as a disguise to pass himself off as human to arouse less suspicion. To be technical he would have been an illusionist (halflings could be illusionists in the Original DS Boxed Set).
Flip, but the contradictions in the official Materia are sometimes too big. The people writing new Books aren't as well informed as they should be, they make faults, plan for the future, forgetting sometimes the past, which is sad. Take Ktandeo for example, officially he is a Halfling (Artifacts of Athas) LOL.
In the case of that book, and the various Monster Manuals, I tend to rate them as much lower priority sources. The novels, especially for non-mechanical aspects of characters created in the novel, take a higher priority as a source... Ktandeo is a human.
Oh, don't say that! I was really getting into that idea :D.
Me too!
.BTW What is now the "official" Word? For the fans he is human, but Kevin Melka has more power right?
BTW What is now the "official" Word? For the fans he is human, but Kevin Melka has more power right?
It's an inconsistency and we leave it as such.
Whats your reasoning for bringing this back from the dead?
I was reading this again.. and didn't want to loose it.
there would have to be a limit to the number of champions he created.... as he gives up a part of his own power when creating them... I dont mean this from a Dark Sun point of view... I mean D&D in general..
most high level spells (and epic spells!)... require the caster to lose some of his power when cast.. made evident by the experience point cost..
I dont have it handy at the moment.. but look up the EXP cost in the Epic Handbook for the spells that simply extend a lifespan.. now imagine the cost for complete immortality.... now imagine the cost for all the other nifty abilities that the champions received... Rajat takes a major hit every time he creates a champion..
Sauron imbued the One Ring with much of his own life force.... (EXP cost)
What was the time frame between the collections of obsidian and slaves made in the Dragon's Levy, in order to keep Rajaat imprisoned?
And what was the time frame guestimated or hinted at, that would have Rajat freed from his initial fractured prison. (hence the need for borys).
What I'm getting at here, is that with Borys metamorphosed, they still had the same problem, rajaat could get free.. however, the time that they had to prepare for each escape possibility, was extreemly lengthened.
What was the difference, a day to a year? 10 years? what was the time between levy's? Does anyone take that into account in Dragon Magic when they are further metamorphosed? Could this be a thing restricted to just champions?
epic spell, if you go by the theory that draining their life yields their XP, so that's one heck of a powerful spell to keep Rajaat imprisoned, considering that it could have a casting DC of 7,000,000+ before mitigating factors.