"The Day of Light" is the first of three adventures in the Dregoth Ascending trilogy. We're on schedule and a preview release for public playtesting should be ready before Christmas. So, you'll all have a nice Christmas present to peruse during the holidays.
[copied from athas.org front page]
"The Day of Light" is the first of three adventures in the Dregoth Ascending trilogy. We're on schedule and a preview release for public playtesting should be ready before Christmas. So, you'll all have a nice Christmas present to peruse during the holidays.
Does this mean that the Epic Rules pdf is about done????
I hope that rest of DA will see that light of day sooner than later as well.
Does this mean that the Epic Rules pdf is about done????
Unfortunately, not really. DA part I requires less epic rules than the rest of the adventure, that's why we're releasing it now.
Though I was excited to see it, it needs work.
Care to be helpful and elaborate?
By needing work I mean that the plot does not need the PC's at all, the events will play out regardless what the PC's do. It would work better if they started in Raam and were capable of messing up Dragoths plan, as written a smart Pc would simply sit in a inn and wait it out. The Godhood spell needs work as well, like a switch in the 1st and 2nd stages, Dragoth being able to cut off epic level spells with no hitdice sac, makes little sense, why is he able to do that, when he needs 1000 hit dice wortha cretures to do it to the rest? I mean epic spells should require as many as that. also if one looks at the old dragon met, one needed thousands of hit dice, the spell only requires 1000? So becoming a god is easier than a dragon? That's what I got from reading it. thats really it, as it is, players will feel like your dragin them by the nose, and no player likes that,and at the end, it'll feel like they accomplished very little.Because they don't save the city, think about it, NPC accomplish that, they don't even really save the elves, as some would survive anyway. Also as written for a group of 12-16th level characters, the PC's should be a serious threat to Dregoths army, ya there out numbered but a party of hunters could do serious damage.another item that needs to be addressed is a timeline, as written if the PC's come from Balic( as my group would) the adventures over when they get there.Hmm thats not fun. I don't wanna seem like I;m bagging on it, but it seems unplayable as written, well unless you like have no choice, and feeling like you did nothin
snip...
Punctuation and grammar would be a big plus here!
That looked like one long run on sentence.
;)
By needing work I mean that the plot does not need the PC's at all, the events will play out regardless what the PC's do.
The PCs have a chance to affect the outcome in one way or another in all encounters. This is Part I in a trilogy, requiring some linear events that take place to move the story onward, but you'll note that the PCs are the encounter triggers, e.g. the final dray vs elf battle does not take place without the PCs unless they deliberately choose to avoid the encounter.
It would work better if they started in Raam and were capable of messing up Dragoths plan, as written a smart Pc would simply sit in a inn and wait it out.
This flexibility opens for multiple approaches and is considered to be an advantage. Would you rather like a linear ABC-pattern adventure? Yes, one can sit out the whole series of events outside the northwestern gate if you so desire, but where's the action in that? PCs that do wouldn't be able to affect events in the city, nor would they gain favor in the factions that will be of help in Part II.
The Godhood spell needs work as well, like a switch in the 1st and 2nd stages, Dragoth being able to cut off epic level spells with no hitdice sac, makes little sense, why is he able to do that, when he needs 1000 hit dice wortha cretures to do it to the rest? I mean epic spells should require as many as that. also if one looks at the old dragon met, one needed thousands of hit dice, the spell only requires 1000? So becoming a god is easier than a dragon?
The spell remains as true to the original manuscript as it could. This is the way it was described. To be technical, the xp and gold required to develop the godhood spell would certainly be many times that of any dragon metamorphosis spell - it also requires the use of the Pristine Tower to complete it. The dragon metamorphosis does not require that. Also, the loss of 9th level spells at the end of stage two of the godhood spell is not a result of the 1,000 victims sacrificed - those are needed for further levels of the spell. The loss of divine spell levels happens gradually as the spell progresses, and is not a direct result of each casting of the spell - think of it as a series of rituals being completed. The first ritual initiates the jolt to move the conduits, which then need life energy to be moved several times, and finally the energy of the Pristine Tower is utilized.
That's what I got from reading it. thats really it, as it is, players will feel like your dragin them by the nose, and no player likes that,and at the end, it'll feel like they accomplished very little.Because they don't save the city, think about it, NPC accomplish that, they don't even really save the elves, as some would survive anyway.
Actually, how are they dragged by the nose? The adventure is the most flexible DS adventure ever published. You can explore as much or as little of the city as you desire and apart from the last encounters, everything is practically speaking optional. As for not saving the day and being big time heroes, there is only so much a small group of characters can do in a war against thousands of enemies. In this war they can defeat the supreme commander of the enemy army - if that isn't hero material, I don't know. What NPCs are you talking about stealing the thunder of the PCs? I can't think of a single NPC doing anything that compares to what the PCs can accomplish. Leviath has set the stage - it is up to the PCs to gather up all the loose threads and play out the end scene. Also keep in mind that this is Part I in a trilogy - there will be plenty of opportunities to be big time heroes at the conclusion of the trilogy.
Also as written for a group of 12-16th level characters, the PC's should be a serious threat to Dregoths army, ya there out numbered but a party of hunters could do serious damage.
Why do you think the concept of guerilla warfare is emphasized? The PCs need to be clever - Dregoth's troops are good enough to wear them down over time if they come charging with big swords and spells.
another item that needs to be addressed is a timeline, as written if the PC's come from Balic( as my group would) the adventures over when they get there.Hmm thats not fun.
Check again. Regardless of where the PCs start, the time for the point of arrival is fixed, so all PCs appear at the same time, even if they use magical transportation.
I don't wanna seem like I;m bagging on it, but it seems unplayable as written, well unless you like have no choice, and feeling like you did nothin
It's Athas, suck it up. :P You do have choice, but you can't repel Dregoth and his entire dray army! However, you can save a large amount of Night Runner elves and prevent a lot of nasty things from happening all over the city. Of course, if you want to try to take on Dregoth himself and his cadre of elite units, you're free to make kebab out of your character. ;)
1) 1000 HD is really, really easy to achieve. In 3.5, every human has at least 1 HD (even if that is only a d4). Given that Raam has 40,000 odd people living there and the adventure begins with Dregoth in control of around 40% of the city, it seems silly that he is still hunting for 200 people to sacrifice.
2) A lack of a time line. In theory, a group of PCs have an unlimited time to go running around town doing this and that. Or more particularly, going into an abandoned building and resting for half a day before continuing on whenever they drop below half hit points. There is nothing really goding them into action. A timeline that clearly spells out (at the minimum) the rate that sacrfices are taken to Dregoth will give PCs a sense of foreboding as time slowly counts down to something bad.
3) the silly number of high level characters on all sides of the conflict. Sure it is a high level adventure, but that is not justification for an army being composed completely of 5+ level guys. The DMG gives fairly reasonable guides to city demographics, which mostly reinforce that most people are level 1!
If you want to make Dregoth's army scary, give his side 30,000 1 or 2 HD skeletons not 3,000 6th level fighters (who by the way should all cart around magic gear the PCs will flood the market with and make a fortune off). The former have no loot, give PCs no XP, but still presents a credible challenge to a group of 4 PCs.
4) No real help is given for dealing with the usual issues of high level games, particularly things like commune or contact other plane spells, teleport raiding, scrying, limited wish spells etc. Details on: what can/cannot be discovered with divination magic and why, Dregoth's contigencies for a group teleport raiding his army or supply lines etc
5) none of the NPCs seem to have the right amount of gear for their level. Some of them have nothing really at all for instance, which may tempt evil PCs to do a little XP farming. CRs and ELs should be brought downwards to account for this at a minimum.
6) The boxed text on most of the NPCs is too long. It reads like a long winded speech rather than an actual conversation. It would be better to give a description of the NPC's personality, motivations and mannerisms, and then provide details of the info that NPC has and let the PCs actually interact with the NPC.
7) Nothing is provided to allow for the PCs to take the central reins of control. At best the PCs make some friends. By 12th level, a PC has enough power to start their own merchant house or noble family, or lead a small army.
Some allowance should be made to allow determined PCs to garner political clout in the city, arguably even seize control if they play their cards right (ie assassinate Leriath, keep the nobles and merchants ineffective, save a bunch of people from sacrifice).
regards
Shaun, the cute and fluffy DM
1) 1000 HD is really, really easy to achieve. In 3.5, every human has at least 1 HD (even if that is only a d4). Given that Raam has 40,000 odd people living there and the adventure begins with Dregoth in control of around 40% of the city, it seems silly that he is still hunting for 200 people to sacrifice.
I have come to agree with the number being somewhat small. 5,000 or 10,000 HD would be a better figure, and would also explain why Dregoth bothers with the Night Runners - they have significant HD compared to the average Raamite.
2) A lack of a time line. In theory, a group of PCs have an unlimited time to go running around town doing this and that. Or more particularly, going into an abandoned building and resting for half a day before continuing on whenever they drop below half hit points. There is nothing really goding them into action. A timeline that clearly spells out (at the minimum) the rate that sacrfices are taken to Dregoth will give PCs a sense of foreboding as time slowly counts down to something bad.
This was left up to the DM, though a simple timeline could be added. The original manuscript didn't have one, though.
3) the silly number of high level characters on all sides of the conflict. Sure it is a high level adventure, but that is not justification for an army being composed completely of 5+ level guys. The DMG gives fairly reasonable guides to city demographics, which mostly reinforce that most people are level 1! If you want to make Dregoth's army scary, give his side 30,000 1 or 2 HD skeletons not 3,000 6th level fighters (who by the way should all cart around magic gear the PCs will flood the market with and make a fortune off). The former have no loot, give PCs no XP, but still presents a credible challenge to a group of 4 PCs.
The amount of mid-level NPCs was done to stay true to the original manuscript. I'll let Kevin answer this question more thoroughly if he's reading this. P.S: Dregoth doesn't have near 30,000 skeletons.
4) No real help is given for dealing with the usual issues of high level games, particularly things like commune or contact other plane spells, teleport raiding, scrying, limited wish spells etc. Details on: what can/cannot be discovered with divination magic and why, Dregoth's contigencies for a group teleport raiding his army or supply lines etc
There were no advice in the original manuscript, but maybe a paragraph could be added about divination/commune/scry etc. As for teleport raiding, Dregoth's army is in a city. Supplies can easily be replenished.
5) none of the NPCs seem to have the right amount of gear for their level. Some of them have nothing really at all for instance, which may tempt evil PCs to do a little XP farming. CRs and ELs should be brought downwards to account for this at a minimum.
The reasoning for keeping the equipment levels down (and somewhat in tune with the original manuscript) is to preserve Dark Sun flavor. Athas is a low magic world and I didn't want to flood the adventure with psionic items either. You are probably correct about deflating the CRs.
6) The boxed text on most of the NPCs is too long. It reads like a long winded speech rather than an actual conversation. It would be better to give a description of the NPC's personality, motivations and mannerisms, and then provide details of the info that NPC has and let the PCs actually interact with the NPC.
This is a general 2E adventure design matter. I chose to remain true to the original manuscript. A good GM can read personality, motives and mannerisms from the italized text. You can also find that information in the NPC appendix.
7) Nothing is provided to allow for the PCs to take the central reins of control. At best the PCs make some friends. By 12th level, a PC has enough power to start their own merchant house or noble family, or lead a small army. Some allowance should be made to allow determined PCs to garner political clout in the city, arguably even seize control if they play their cards right (ie assassinate Leriath, keep the nobles and merchants ineffective, save a bunch of people from sacrifice).
The possibility of the PCs taking a portion of the city for themselves is accounted for. The DM is free to make allowances, but the official storyline is that Leviath lives.
I have come to agree with the number being somewhat small. 5,000 or 10,000 HD would be a better figure, and would also explain why Dregoth bothers with the Night Runners - they have significant HD compared to the average Raamite.
on a similar vein, is it 1000 HD of life, or 1000 HD of humanoid life that is necessary for the spell? Rounding up a few wild herds of say antloids or mekillots must surely be easier than beseiging a city?
This was left up to the DM, though a simple timeline could be added. The original manuscript didn't have one, though.
If someone else is writing an adventure rather than me, most of the hard work should already be done rather than 'left up to the DM' to fill in. If the original manuscript does not have a suggested timeline, I personally see this as a failing of the original manuscript that should be corrected.
The amount of mid-level NPCs was done to stay true to the original manuscript. I'll let Kevin answer this question more thoroughly if he's reading this. P.S: Dregoth doesn't have near 30,000 skeletons.
Again, staying true to an adventure written for 2nd ed is not necessarily a good thing. If something else works better (or is more plausible under 3.5) surely it is better to change/rewrite the adventure?
And, why doesn't he have 30,000 skeletons? Surely a few epic spells can raise that many, and enough forward planning would have seen that all his little Dray dudes have amulets of undead control that work only for Dray or such.
There were no advice in the original manuscript, but maybe a paragraph could be added about divination/commune/scry etc. As for teleport raiding, Dregoth's army is in a city. Supplies can easily be replenished.
I would think that this sort of advice is kinda mandatory for DMs who have never dealt with PCs being able to:
Scry out next encounter, teleport into Raam, Cause mischief, teleport back to their stronghold, rest up and repeat ad nauseam.
In other words, the usual problems with high level PCs equipped with simple basic gear and spells.
The reasoning for keeping the equipment levels down (and somewhat in tune with the original manuscript) is to preserve Dark Sun flavor. Athas is a low magic world and I didn't want to flood the adventure with psionic items either. You are probably correct about deflating the CRs.
I personally agree that low magic is good for Athas, but wanted to point this one out given that this is a D&D adventure, not d20 adventure.
This is a general 2E adventure design matter. I chose to remain true to the original manuscript. A good GM can read personality, motives and mannerisms from the italized text. You can also find that information in the NPC appendix.
Once more, I will state that I think the original manuscript is flawed and should be fixed.
The possibility of the PCs taking a portion of the city for themselves is accounted for. The DM is free to make allowances, but the official storyline is that Leviath lives.
I think my biggest problem is motivation. As it stands, PCs (who are much higher level than Leviath) don't really have much motivation for helping the city. Particularly if they are morally dubious.
Finally, I got home and realised I had forgotten several points:
8) Why do the Dray attack the Night Runners? They are in theory hunting down the remaining 200 HD of life that Dregoth needs. The Night Runners are well organised, led by charismatic individuals, highly motivated and equipped with nice gear. They are an actual threat to Dregoth's plans!
From a strategic point of view, surely it would be better to box the Night Runners in the Trade Quarter with superior numbers and expand control into the other areas of the city? Now, if the Dray were hunting high HD elves for use as sacrifices, that would be a different thing...
9) The Dray are not suitably equipped to pacify a population. Where are the wands and scrolls of charm person, sleep, entangle etc? Where are the merciful enchanted weapons for great subdual fun?
10) by FY 11, does the public truly believe the Dragon is dead? Most people have never seen it, only heard horrible tales of it's ability to cause destruction. If a bunch of usurpers in another city claim to have killed the Dragon will it necessarily be believed? By everyone? Yet, most text in the adventure implies that the PCs are well aware that the Dragon is dead and that the Dragon's Levy is public knowledge.
The wording of most speeches should be adjusted to cause some doubt in the PCs. In fact, they may have to use high level divination magic to ascertain that it really isn't the Dragon outside being a naughty boy.
11) The Dray use a bunch of silt skimmers to travel. Where did these come from? Who or what is guarding them? PCs may for example decide that the best way to hurt Dregoth is to take out his Silt skimmers whilst his army is off playing in Raam.
This could potentially cause far more damage to Dregoth's army than any direct assault as his troops are forced to hike around the long way without much in the way of supplies.
regards
Shaun, the cute and fluffy DM
We helped the nightrunners, awarding each party member a favor. wich is priceless. In good standing with Leviath Alliance, disliked somewhat by the merchant alliance. Looking forward to Da Part 2. and btw. Dregoth has a GOOD army, he has spend several decades forimg it and training it. and the braxats are almost extinct :D
Just my take, btw. DA needs a experinced DM .
Aklar 9 Cleric / 5 Elemetalist
Hong Han 2 Fighter / 3 Ranger / 9 Elite Sniper
If someone else is writing an adventure rather than me, most of the hard work should already be done rather than 'left up to the DM' to fill in. If the original manuscript does not have a suggested timeline, I personally see this as a failing of the original manuscript that should be corrected.
Just to prove that you can't please everyone...
I would never use a timeline included in any adventure I run, in fact, I feel a timeline detracts from the utility and playability of any module. Events happen in stories for thematic reasons, not because "at 6pm, the sun goes down" -- and since RPGs are about creating stories, not creating perfect simulations of some alternate reality, a timeline of events does nothing to help me run an adventure particularly well, or make the adventure particularly interesting or engaging to the players, because sterile "event A happens at X time" is emotionally uninteresting and thematically unengaging.
Instead, events happen for reasons of dramatic necessity, not because of scheduling. Things are set up so that the players get a kick out of their play: arriving in the middle of the battle to save the day? Setting up traps and pitfalls beforehand for the enemy to fall into? Working in whatever their thing is...not planning everything according to a careful chart of "X happens at X time" and forgetting the players' desires as participants in a heroic adventure game, people looking for fun, for an emotional kick, in the midst of some detailed record-keeping.
This is why the attack on the Nightrunners does not occur "until" the PCs arrive: it's the PCs big chance to shine, to show heroism (or cowardice), to succeed or fail, so it's occurence is a function of the PCs' arrival on the scene, existing in "loose time" or "narrative time", rather a pre-set event occuring in some straightjacketed timeline.
Even ignoring that, any "timeline" is really going to be jacked the minute the PCs arrive on the scene because their arrival and subsequent actions will start a cascade-event chain-reaction, which continually alters future events, making the timeline mostly useless.
So, no, I far prefer loosely detailed encounters that may/may not happen dependent solely on the location and/or arrival of the story's protagonists in relation to the event.
Scry out next encounter, teleport into Raam, Cause mischief, teleport back to their stronghold, rest up and repeat ad nauseam.
Are you suggesting the PCs, if they do such a thing, are doing something "wrong"? That limits need to be placed upon such abilities by the GM to prevent them from "ruining" his adventure? I hope that is not what is being advocated when you state text should be included for "dealing with" it.
Why? Artificially limiting abilities the characters have legally attained through prior adventuring (such as scrying, teleportation, etc.) are unfair limitation tactics which are nothing more than railroading, as well as insulting to the players.
After all, if you spent nine levels trying to get access to that Teleport spell (or anything else), and then every time you try to use it, the GM hoses its utility, you would get pretty upset -- after all, what was the use of getting access to it if it is ultimately useless now?
So, the advice I would prefer to see in the adventure regarding such high level spells is not how to limit or render them ineffective, but a note of how the players have a right to use these abilities to their heart's content, and how the GM might use the same with his NPCs in response to their actions (but NOT as a way to "punish" the players for having their characters effectively use hard-earned abilities to gain an upper hand).
One idea, regarding your above "problem" scenario: is that Dregoth, or one of his many defilers or templars, could certainly utilize magic to track any PC nuisances right back to their home base. When the characters pop back home the next time to rest up, they have a surprise waiting for them...
One idea, regarding your above "problem" scenario: is that Dregoth, or one of his many defilers or templars, could certainly utilize magic to track any PC nuisances right back to their home base. When the characters pop back home the next time to rest up, they have a surprise waiting for them...
I agree totally, it was what I was planning on doing... but this is not detailed in the adventure at all. The Dregoth anti-teleport raiding squad o' Doom should be statted up and ready to kick the butt of a group of PCs at their most disadvantaged.
As for a timeline... yes there are issues, but a completely location based adventure has issues too, namely that players are theoretically capable of dragging the adventure out for an infinite amount of game time. Which may be fine in other people's game, but I prefer a much more simulationist game style.
If PCs to some extent know that time is of the essence it can add a cool level of tension to a game. Do the PCs keep searching for survivors? Or is it better to go recover the magic stash for the Night Runners? What about trying to earn some money or a favour from the Merchant House? How do they acomplish the most 'good' within a limited amount of time. That is what I am getting at.
HE actually duped us for 250 gp
You didn't expect the elves to just give the Nobles all that gold for some mercenaries? Though, I will admit, the korinth was a nice touch! Hehe, the good old gold that turns into ceramics trick. :P
-sigh- I hate it when people crab about minor aspects of a project that is being done by very generous volunteers and provided free for their enjoyment. You shouldn't look a gift kank in the mandibles.....
Esp since it's not too hard to make your own timeline if you need one so badly.
Just rambling.
Forums are discussion forums right? ;) some people might ask questions and they have the right to do so, let them and answer them if you post a thread on a board, be nice, play nice, ask, answer, it's simple, there is no offense one could take from the questions asked IMO and there should be none in the answers.
Just like it's ok to post opinions, which is what we are doing.
;)
Just like it's ok to post opinions, which is what we are doing.
;)
:D You know what I mean Nyt.
-sigh- I hate it when people crab about minor aspects of a project that is being done by very generous volunteers and provided free for their enjoyment. You shouldn't look a gift kank in the mandibles.....
I don't consider any of the points I made minor. I have about twice as many of those, but they will be emailed to the darksun peoples seperately since they are predominantly typos.
secondly, if someone is going to be producing products which are official, I expect the level of quality to be high. I don't want my favourite campaign setting degenerating into something less.
The Darksun team have produced some very awesome products to date. I am merely expressing my personal views that this product still needs work and these are where I think focus should be given.
:D You know what I mean Nyt.
:fight!:
:bounce:
i do share the feeling with the fluffy dm (care to cuddle? :P :D ) that the lack of time doesnt really shine through.....its not made apparent enough.
for the rest i say kudos for making this thing finally work and get out there!
3) the silly number of high level characters on all sides of the conflict. Sure it is a high level adventure, but that is not justification for an army being composed completely of 5+ level guys. The DMG gives fairly reasonable guides to city demographics, which mostly reinforce that most people are level 1!
If you want to make Dregoth's army scary, give his side 30,000 1 or 2 HD skeletons not 3,000 6th level fighters (who by the way should all cart around magic gear the PCs will flood the market with and make a fortune off). The former have no loot, give PCs no XP, but still presents a credible challenge to a group of 4 PCs.
I agree that the levels as written wouldn't really fit in with my campaign ideas however since this is based off 2e where all characters started at 3rd level, if you reduce these NPC's by 3 levels you get some pretty realistic (by 3e standards) levels.
The basic night runners become 2nd to 4th level and the dray foot soldiers become 4th level with the riders at 6th
Just as a way of comparision, Races of Destiny lists standard city guards as 3rd level warriors, soldiers as 5th level warriors, commanders as 8th level fighters, bravos as 3rd level rogues and cabal guards as 4th level fighter/rangers
I think to fit in with starting at 1st level I will probably reduce all the levels by 3 but increase the numbers encountered somewhat to compensate
players are theoretically capable of dragging the adventure out for an infinite amount of game time.
I agree that it is theoretically possible, but my response to this would be "only if you allow it": the rules of dramatic pacing apply here as well, and once applied, players can no longer can drag out an adventure for an infinite amount of time, because that would be boring as well.
If PCs to some extent know that time is of the essence it can add a cool level of tension to a game. How do they acomplish the most 'good' within a limited amount of time.
While this is true, keep in mind that the gamemaster can easily create the illusion of limited time without actually limiting the player's time. All he has to do is tell the players they are laboring under some sort of time constraint, and not tell them that his statement isn't true. Consider: How often does "you have fifteen minutes" actually take fifteen minutes in a movie or television show*? This "given time" is either shortened or extended as necessary for the purposes of dramatic tension.
* Or even especially, a novel, given that it cannot convey "time" except as a function of the author describing its passage.
Ultimately, "I guess we didn't get here in time to stop the sacrifice," is less fun than is, "You arrive when the mad high priest is about to plunge the knife through the victim's chest!"
Nothing happens in the game world without the gamemaster saying it has happened, so the sacrifice event (or whatever) can be delayed until the players' arrival, and the arrival timed to their heroic-style preferences.
(For those worried that your players will "discover" this time-warp "trick" and "use it to their own advantage" -- that's a fairly large danger-sign of group dysfunction. You are either all trying to have a good time together and supporting one another's stylistic considerations and methods, or you aren't, and you are being a bunch of jerks out to have fun at the expense of others.)
While this is true, keep in mind that the gamemaster can easily create the illusion of limited time without actually limiting the player's time. All he has to do is tell the players they are laboring under some sort of time constraint, and not tell them that his statement isn't true. Consider: How often does "you have fifteen minutes" actually take fifteen minutes in a movie or television show*? This "given time" is either shortened or extended as necessary for the purposes of dramatic tension.
1) I would rather not have to lie to the PCs, and
2) I think the product would be more solid and DM friendly with a more definite timeline rather than relying completely on a DM to spur things along.
The timeline can be stretched from dramatic tension where appropriate. It will also need to be altered to account for PC actions.
But a side bar to give a general indication of when events are taking place will be more help than hindrance, and advance the idea that Dregoth has a distinct plan in motion.
regards
Shaun, the cute and fluffy DM
1) I would rather not have to lie to the PCs
Terminology clarification: you mean "lying" to the players, not the PCs, correct?
(Even then, I seriously doubt you never "lie" to you players -- in fact, given the way most games play, it would be impossible not to lie to the players and have a functional game. For a blatant example, consider Ravenloft -- one of the main tools of the GM to maintain atmosphere is "lying to" or misleading the players. Another example would be the use of illusion magic, which you must lie to your players about in order to use -- you don't say, "This is an illusion, but treat it like you don't know that.")
2) I think the product would be more solid and DM friendly with a more definite timeline rather than relying completely on a DM to spur things along.
I am sorry, but I just utterly disagree. I have never seen a timeline in an adventure (or other product) that has been anything but a liability to that product.
I consider timelines (and have always found them to be) DM-unfriendly, because they place unspoken limitations on the GM, must quickly be abandoned in practice, and tend to produce very bad adventures (most GM's unfortunately tend to believe they MUST...FOLLOW TIMELINE...EXACTLY...*GASP*COUGH*... which leads to (or reinforces) all sorts of bad play and bad ideas about how play "should" happen).
Of much greater utility is the inclusion of a set of motivations and overall plans of the parties involved in the conflict, instead indicating what the involved parties want, and what they will be trying to accomplish (along with probable methods). None of these lock a GM into the idea that "at X time B must happen"; additionally, they provide a greater range of flexibility and utility than do timelines.
ADDENDUM: You mentioned running into typos in the document. I did some of the proofreading, so I would appreciate it if you could send me a copy of the typos you discovered so I can see what I apparently missed. Thanks!
ADDENDUM: You mentioned running into typos in the document. I did some of the proofreading, so I would appreciate it if you could send me a copy of the typos you discovered so I can see what I apparently missed. Thanks!
Same is true for me. Please send me an email about the things we missed.
I consider timelines (and have always found them to be) DM-unfriendly, because they place unspoken limitations on the GM, must quickly be abandoned in practice, and tend to produce very bad adventures (most GM's unfortunately tend to believe they MUST...FOLLOW TIMELINE...EXACTLY...*GASP*COUGH*... which leads to (or reinforces) all sorts of bad play and bad ideas about how play "should" happen).
Of much greater utility is the inclusion of a set of motivations and overall plans of the parties involved in the conflict, instead indicating what the involved parties want, and what they will be trying to accomplish (along with probable methods). None of these lock a GM into the idea that "at X time B must happen"; additionally, they provide a greater range of flexibility and utility than do timelines.
When I read through the adventure, I found myself feeling that the adventure was too drawn out, that the pacing was too slow, the game as written too static. I could already see any group of players I ran for deciding that they should "do every encounter, see every bit of the city" before ending the game to maximise their XP gain. There is no indication of how long Dregoth's occupation lasts... hours, days, weeks? About the only reference to time was an indication of how long it took to search a hex of the city.
Some in built restriction to prevent such monty haul tactics was what I wanted, hence why I asked for a timeline. Unlike you I have played in games that had good time lines that added to the overal coolness of the game. However, your suggestion is probably better (as you get added flexibility). If I remember the adventure correctly, it does already have this info to some extent. I will re-read and reassess.
ADDENDUM: You mentioned running into typos in the document. I did some of the proofreading, so I would appreciate it if you could send me a copy of the typos you discovered so I can see what I apparently missed. Thanks!
If I recall, it was only four typos in the entire document. Which, is better than some published material by people who want money for their work. I did not check the monster stats so can't comment there. Should be able to do this tonight.
The introducing paragraph mentions any part of that timeline may be stretched by the DM for convenience, and that if the players's characters fail in their mission or die, plenty of other world renown NPCs will save the day near the end of the timeline, before the "evil plan" comes to be.
ADDENDUM: You mentioned running into typos in the document. I did some of the proofreading, so I would appreciate it if you could send me a copy of the typos you discovered so I can see what I apparently missed. Thanks!
I had no email address for you, so ask Jon or Elonarc for typos I emailed to them.
regards
Shaun