Some time before, it was commented upon that a revived Greyhawk would need a “hook.” Something to make the setting appealing to a new audience, not just a core audience which would be happy enough with a warmed over, rehash (as long as it had footnotes). ;)
I would like to suggest a very specific idea.
As a setting, Greyhawk has one huge, gaping hole (leaving aside that the Flanaess is just one small portion of an unexplored globe) - there is no described Deep Oerth or “Underdark.” It is a D&D trope that Greyhawk is entirely missing.
Yes. Vault of the Drow. It is tiny and hardly comprehensive.
Yes. Nightbelow. It is not Greyhawk, however much wishing and invocations of Sargent’s name would see it so.
No. Oerth needs an subterranean addition all its own. Or nearly so.
First, to the chief advantage of a comprehensive Deep Oerth. It is everywhere. From the lands of the Ice Barbarians to the Hold of the Sea Princes. From Sunndi to Blackmoor. And all points in between. Deep Oerth has the capacity to touch and effect every corner of the Flanaess. Yet, it is tucked away down there, out of sight. This means no great disruptions to affairs on the surface are mandatory. Such could be had but the influence of Deep Oerth could be far more subtle, but no less telling. You can have your cake and eat it too.
Of exactly - what’s down there? And - what is its impact on the setting? I am not going to speculate. The important point, IMO, is to illustrate how a single idea can energize a new look at and for the World of Greyhawk, specifically the Flanaess.
And, as it turns out, Deep Oerth is very much in easy reach. Two developments touch upon this idea.
First - Stealing Mystara.
Greyhawk stole the Isle of Dread from the Mystara setting. It is done. So, why stop there? Mystara in The Shadow Elves (D&D GAZ13) and The Orcs of Thar (D&D GAZ10) has a very nice underground environment all mapped out. Only the scale and some specifics need to be changed/adjusted to fit Greyhawk. That takes care of the physical environment.
Second - The Rift Canyon
Here is your Greyhawk jump off point into Deep Oerth. It is sitting right there in the middle of the map waiting to be developed. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone were not already developing it for print. :D If ever there was a perfect entre to Deep Oerth, here it is. That would take care of an initial Greyhawk tie in.
All that remains would be to decide -
(1) What is down there in Deep Oerth; and
(2) How does that impact the surface of the Flanaess?
For those who want the Flanaess frozen in amber, the surface is left substantially alone.
For those who want to see substantial development beyond the established confines of the Flanaess, get a shovel.
And Greyhawk’s great hole will be plugged.
Something to think about.
GVD
I would agree however that the underdark presents a rich opportunity to develop an alien setting which touches the Flanness at points. One of the strengths of the Giants series IMO was that the Drow were such a revelation to so many players in the early days. Such surprises would be maintained in a setting which is virtually unknown to the surface. The moment it becomes too accessible and interractive, it can become stale. I think FR suffers from this in part.
A real point of difference between Greyhawk and "other" settings could certainly be some detailed maps in the vein of the D1-3 series, showing the highways and byways under the surface, which other settings have ignored (Mystara excepted - I have never seen this). With some highly detailed locations and a bunch of adventure hooks this would have fantastic potential. Imagine a setting with the atmoshere and detail of Moria (I remember an ICE product detailing this many years ago....excellent)....hmmmmm.
Yep, works for me.
I think in all fairness, new source books could easily be made with a collection of LGJ content and Dragon/Dungeon content. One of the things I hate about not having HC books for Greyhawk is that I have to literally hunt sources down across miscellaneous magazines, some of which are out of print. Why not repurpose that material into a 3.5 updated source book? For example, each chapter of the LGG could be expanded with their own books and include a bunch of crunch from Dungeon and Dragon Magazines and the LGJ.
Some possibilities:
Cities (similar to Sharn: City of Towers and and the upcoming City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
Regions (such as Shining South, Unnapproachable East, and the upcoming Five Nations)
Organizations (good or evil, similar to Lords of Darkness)
I really get frustrated when potentially generic books, such as Champions of Ruin, are written specifically for FR blatantly exlcuding other settings.
Second - The Rift Canyon
There is already a Rift Canyon "backdrop" article in development for Dungeon... although when it will ever see the light of day is another matter...
As for the Underdark, it originated in Greyhawk so most material put out for it already fits in nicely. Still, I love underground settings, so the more the better.
The book should include:
Write ups of every important NPC.
A detailed, large map of the city and the surrounding region.
Smaller maps of important sites within the city.
Important critters...'Greyhawk Dragon' should be written up as well.
A very good description of all of GH's Friends and Foes.
The book could be 300 pages...
IMO, if you want to do such thing, what do you think of connecting the Chainmail setting and the Flannaess? - The Drow presence in the west is greater than in the East, as far as I remember.
Important critters...'Greyhawk Dragon' should be written up as well.
3.0 Monster Manual stats were in LGJ 1. (Living Greyhawk Journal #1's Enchiridion of the Fiend-Sage article by SKR)
Check out the 3.5 update here :
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a
As for greyhawk dragon npcs, here`s an example(though an emigrant to FR!):
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20021218a
Dungeon #70 (September/ October 1998)
Kingdom of the Ghouls Wolfgang Baur AD&D2, levels 9-15
And for hunting down those magazines, check out this WIP index to all Greyhawk articles in periodicals on canonfire:
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=589&sid=d68aa33969082354b6c4ed9c999fd9e8
IMO, if you want to do such thing, what do you think of connecting the Chainmail setting and the Flannaess? - The Drow presence in the west is greater than in the East, as far as I remember.
This has already been discussed on these boards somewhere. The maps match with the Greyhawk continent map from dragon annual2. I believe this is already being done by Erik Mona et al.
Stratis a chainmail setting god has been officialy linked to Herioneous/Hextor being their third brother.
I don`t think that there will be much development of the underdark of GH though, and certainly not with as much focus on drow. That has already been done by FR indepth. There`s plenty of other races in the underdark (check post above), who could be explored.
But i think the surface world is what makes Greyhawk anyways.
It was pretty bad.
I also still keep seeing references to old 1e or 2e books for content about such topics. The point of new material is so that newer players don't have to hunt down these books. Newer players want the information collected, adapted, and augmented for 3.5e. Apparently it's good enough for FR.
By the way, it seems like people are forgetting the Hellfurnaces in regards to entrances, Crystalmists, the Lortmils as entrances to the Underdark. It's been officially stated that there is also a common passageway from Rift Canyon to the Hellfurnaces, too. (Dragon #294)
Don't copy FR, that is one more debate I don't want to hear, even though yes I know the Drow originated in Greyhawk.
If it's a hook you seek, I think the GH timeline needs to be advanced quite a number of years. It' about time the Flanaess had some years of peace and tranquility! I really hope that GH doesn't fall into the trap of having world-shattereing events happen ever couple of decades or so like in the DragonLance setting. What a mess. With DL, in order to sell books and game material, there was another world-shattering event with every new product line. That kinda thing gets old if you ask me.
My line of thinking is, finish the current GH setting before addinga new hook and re-publishing all of the supplements all over again...
just my 2 coppers.
...........................Omote
FPQ
"Deep Oerth has the capacity to touch and effect every corner of the Flanaess. Yet, it is tucked away down there, out of sight. This means no great disruptions to affairs on the surface are mandatory. Such could be had but the influence of Deep Oerth could be far more subtle, but no less telling. You can have your cake and eat it too.
Of exactly - what’s down there? And - what is its impact on the setting? I am not going to speculate. The important point, IMO, is to illustrate how a single idea can energize a new look at and for the World of Greyhawk, specifically the Flanaess."
There is potential. It could be mishandled certainly but I do not think the very idea of an Underdark or Deep Oerth is inherently flawed just because of how it has been handled elsewhere. It is how you go about it, I think. The underground is a D&D trope for a reason and a trope is not the same thing as a cliche.
An Underdark or Deep Oerth is also not the only possibility. It is one possibility and there are certainly others.
GVD
An Underdark book can have a strong collection of subterranean content. Heck, I'd love to see one of the new Environment books (Sandtorm, Frostburn, Maelstrom) covering subterranean regions.
But as I continued to read down the thread and think about the concept "what would make this different?" it occurred to me, the problem with the underdark is that it's always essentially been a world-invasion type scenario. I.e., creatures from outerspace/the depths of the ocean/other planes/the underdark are threatening to invade the world. That was cool in Against the Giants but has been hackneyed ever since.
So how about borrowing real-world examples? Instead of the underdark invading Greyhawk, how about Greyhawk invading the underdark? Perhaps, like the Portuguese or the Spanish, a Dwarven clan has secretly discovered the underdark, along with VAST wealth in the form of mithril or adamantium or both. They've started to colonize it and their sudden wealth is threatening the balance of power. Suddenly every kingdom has an interest in delving the underdark to establish their own mines/trade and to counter the growing dwarven threat.
This is much more classic D&D anyway. It's never the monsters bubbling out of the ground killing the heroes, it's always the heroes delving down into the monster's dungeons and killing those poor hapless souls in order to steal their treasure.
Don't get me wrong. Greyhawk's enduring and fairly complex history is incredibly important, but I've come to believe that it is more important to hard-core fans (like those of us who regularly post here or at Canonfire) and designers (who after all, ought to remain consistent) than it is to the general D&D enthusiast.
And make no mistake. An official "relaunch" of the setting _must_ appeal to the general D&D fan with no preconceived notions of what Greyhawk means in order to be financially viable, even if published by a small company under some sort of official license. If a relaunch is not financially viable, we'll get yet another aborted era for the setting that will further divide Greyhawk's fractuous fans.
I've come to believe that the true "hook" for the campaign setting is "Adventures in the classic Sword & Sorcery Style." Let Eberron and its fans chase the latest "kewl" innovation. Leave the flying surfboards and trains and warforged to a setting that was meant to accommodate them from the ground up. Adding a mish-mash of "new fantasy" ideas to Greyhawk is like putting the proverbial lipstick on a pig.
But the thing is, plenty of D&D fans, and certainly plenty of fantasy readers in general, enjoy the taste of bacon. That's our base, and I think the further you go from that the more you're asking for commercial trouble. To succeed financially, Greyhawk must offer something that other settings do not. Eberron has "new fantasy" locked up for the foreseeable future. The Forgotten Realms is the place for deep historical pornography and NPC family trees. Classic Sword & Sorcery has been all but abandoned at an official level.
This isn't to say that Greyhawk's designers should shun new ideas. Each time Howard, Vance, or Leiber put pen to paper, they came up with something new (or at least tried to). But they did so (generally) within the conventions they'd established for previous tales set in their own fantasy universes.
The existing body of Greyhawk material, "canon," as it is so often called, defines in general terms the conventions that ought to be used to craft future releases in this mythical Greyhawk relaunch. When Gary Gygax crafted Greyhawk, he did so by drawing upon the conventions of the prevalent fantasy of his era, which is to say the "Adult Fantasy" being released by editor Lin Carter and others of his ilk. Check the reading list in the back of the first edition Dungeon Master's Guide. Many (if not most) of the tales therein seem to have a "Greyhawk" flair to them. Imaginative, with a touch of darkness. You're more likely to run into a demon than a faerie or unicorn, but the style is open enough to include all of the above.
Most of this fiction is plot-driven, rather than character-driven fantasy (in the vein of, say, the Dragonlance Chronicles). Greyhawk should not run away from this, but should rather embrace it. The focus should be on what the characters are doing, not who they are. Filling in the personal details is the responsibility of the players, and one of the things that makes D&D such a joy to play.
That brings us to adventures. Sourcebooks can be entertaining, but they're much better when they provide things for players to do than when they're just prattling on about the history of this or that nation.
I'm glad that we did the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer the way we did. Fred, Gary, Sean, and I were in the right place at the right time to pull together all of the various Greyhawk threads from a million out-of-print sources, writing a historical and political blueprint for the setting that fit (nearly) perfectly with some 30 years of products, magazine articles, novels, and adventures. Having glimpsed inside the sausage factory, so to speak, I think it's fair to say that no other authors positioned to write the book at that time would have had the interest (obsession?) to do it that way, and Greyhawk is better off for having a coherent, consistent history.
But that book has been done.
Any new treatment of Greyhawk as a setting, I believe, must focus on the role of the character within the setting. Greyhawk is a world of adventure, with crumbling ruins, forlorn cairns, and fading lands in every corner of the countryside. It is a land that accurately models the rules of the D&D game. By always seeking the next danger, exploring the next blighted castle, or venturing across the distant horizon, it's possible to move from humble beginnings to the height of temporal and political power.
Greyhawk is the setting of adventure in the classic Sword & Sorcery style. Adult Fantasy, to borrow the term.
Which brings us to the Underdark, and GVDammerung's original post. The Underdark is a classic element of Greyhawk's past, and one we definitely shouldn't run away from. But it has been largely appropriated by the Forgotten Realms, and is perhaps an inappropriate focus for a rebirth of the campaign setting in general. I can see a fairly large hardcover product focused on Oerik's Underdark (I strongly dislike the clunky term "UnderOerth"), with notes on culture, maps of important cave networks, details on drow vaults and derro Uniting Wars, and most importantly a boatload of adventure hooks and perhaps even campaign outlines. An all-purpose Underdark campaign setting that just happens to fit beneath the world we already know and love.
But, in my view, it should be only one such book. Another might focus on city adventuring, with plenty of ready-made examples and lots of beautiful maps, with each city representing a different campaign theme. Another book might focus on the Amedio and the ruins of the Olman Empire. Perhaps another might present everything you need to run a Greyhawk-themed political campaign, maybe set in Keoland. Another might feature the crumbling Great Kingdom and the madmen who would seek to rekindle its dark fire. Perhaps another on the Thillonrian. Almost certainly something on the City of Greyhawk and the Sea of Dust.
The question is "what sort of campaign do you want to play?"
Whatever your answer, at least within the realm of classic Sword & Sorcery, a resurgent Greyhawk setting ought to have a hardcover product to match your needs.
--Erik Mona
* I must say, however, that there is some personal appeal to a treatment that would allow players to "pick their era," so to speak. Why should the time of the Suel Empire, the Great Migrations, or even the Greyhawk Wars be off limits to players following contemporary Greyhawk releases? One intriguing possibility would be to establish a handful of campaign "themes," and slave a specific time period of Greyhawk's past to that theme. The best part about this idea would be that a book on, say, the Great Migrations era would be usable as deep historical reference and inspiration to almost all "factions" of the existing fandom. Sure, you might be running a campaign in 576 and I in 585, but both of us might be able to use ancient legacy weaponry, cultural customs, or tombs of figures from the most important event in the development of the Flanaess. It may end up being more trouble than it's worth, but it's a topic worthy of discussion.
I've come to believe that the true "hook" for the campaign setting is "Adventures in the classic Sword & Sorcery Style."
How true. I believe old-school 'Hawkers and the new person to the setting would enjoy such a thing. I know I would.
........................Omote
FPQ
As to the subject of an "Oerth Underdark"...I believe it's a great idea and does offer some merit in that it can keep the World of Greyhawk as we know it in place, while adding "newness" to the setting at the same time. Like others have said, I believe the authors should keep the drow presence limited and explore the other races to a much greater extent(ala Night Below). And I definitely agree with Eric about just having one "Oerth Underdark" book...instead of basing the entire resurgence of Greyhawk on the Underdark, just begin the resurgence there and then move on to other places and themes (or times).
From a strictly literary standpoint, it would be appropriate to argue that Greyhawk is not Swords and Sorcery. Whatever the merits of such a debate, I know what is meant when that phrase is used in relation to Greyhawk and there is no percentage in arguing over fictional niceties.
Erik Mona notes that “canon . . . defines in general terms the conventions that ought to be used to craft future releases. . .” I note “general terms,” not a straightjacket composed of canon, and “conventions,” not a slavish devotion to what has come before and/or a refusal to reevaluate, replace or augment what already exists as “canon.” “Conventions” are distinct from the specifics of detail and look to how detail is developed. Where is my stencil? Again, bravo!
“The focus should be on what the characters are doing, not who they are. . . . That brings us to adventures. Sourcebooks can be entertaining, but they’re much better when they provide things for players to do than when they’re just prattling on about the history of this or that nation. . . . Any new treatment of Greyhawk as a setting, I believe, must focus on the role of the character within the setting.”
Interesting.
I think, however, that it must be born in mind that Dungeon must work through the vehicle of adventures (with adjuncts thereto). If this were not so, a broader discussion of the above might be possible and fruitful. Reality, however, suggests that this is wise counsel. And in all events, remembering that anything written is for a game that is to be played with characters is always sound advice.
Moving on to how this philosophy might be effectuated, Mr. Mona notes - “The question is ‘What sort of campaign do you want to play?’ . . .Whatever your answer, at least within the realm of classic Sword & Sorcery, a resurgent Greyhawk setting ought to have a hardcover product to match your needs.”
With this, we depart by some measure from the “focus on the character” philosophy. The tension, I think, is between “the real” - Dungeon that demands adventures, which are inherently character driven vehicles - and “the ideal” - a set of thematic sourcebooks, that while suggesting and propelling “character focused adventures,” will not be simply adventures in and of themselves. While I think it is possible to debate the particulars of such a plan, it is not, IMO, immediately objectionable.
However, if one is to stay focused on the immediately possible, a central question remains, which bluntly put amounts to - so what? That sounds harsh but there is no third party publisher on the horizon that I am aware of and Wotc’s interest, I understand, to be zero. That leaves the Dungeon. So, how does Mr. Mona’s articulation of a “resurgent Greyhawk” fit with the reality of Dungeon Magazine?
One answer might be - it doesn’t. In which case, we are forward planning at best. Mr. Mona suggests that this may be the answer to the degree he speaks of sourcebooks. Unless Paizo Publishing or a third party is pursuing a license (Wotc having no interest), Dungeon will not be producing sourcebooks.
If one allows for the possibility of pursuing a “resurgent Greyhawk” within the pages of the Dungeon (and perhaps Dragon), there are matters to discuss. Obviously, the needs of the magazine(s) must be born clearly and uppermost in mind. That means adventures, in the main, with some adjunct material. Given this, what does the articulated philosophy of “character focused Sword and Sorcery (Adult Fiction)” mean within this context?
The answer remains unstated. Mr. Mona ends where I began, articulating a possible approach without going into specifics. His coda, however, is more than intriguing - “flashbacks” to various points in Greyhawk’s past. Personally, I find that idea very appealing and one with vast potential. And it is specific enough to go forward, if one chose to do so. It is, however, one idea, among a number of possibilities, I would think.
Whatever the specifics of the articulated philosophy, we here come to the matter of “first actors.” I do not mean to put Mr. Mona on the spot but his position allows for little less. He must, under present configurations, play a role more than passing, if anything more than the status quo is to be had.
Mr. Mona could, in something of an editorial tradition, chart a course and having done so, leave it to the hands to get the ship to port. Others would write the vast majority of the articles/adventures effectuating the philosophy.
Mr. Mona could also undertake a much more “hands on” design role. He could write most of the “adjunct material,” leaving the adventures to others. To a lesser extent, he might write the “bible” adjunct material and let others then run with that.
In all events, there are three questions that belong strictly to Mr. Mona -
(1) Are you willing to attempt a “resurgent Greyhawk” with the present resources available, being Dungeon (and perhaps Dragon)?
(2) If so, what specifically (not merely philosophically) will characterize the “resurgence?” And
(3) What portion of it will you author as the specifics are made real?
I think to be fair I have to say that there would be no shame in shrinking from the idea and in answering the first question in the negative, thus ending matters. Any attempt will be fraught with difficulties, not the least being bumptious Greyhawkers and to say nothing of demanding employers and potentially hostile IP owners (D&D license to Paizo or no).
Were it me, I’d go for it but I can say that without my livelihood being jeopardized and in the comfort of my chair far from the frontline. Mr. Mona’s decision should not be gainsaid or vouchsafed, at least on such large matters.
However, I reserve the right to say I found the Istivin article, and any future such, uninspired. ;)
GVD
I feel that Greyhawk's initial strength always lay in the fact that it provided a great canvas for the DM to paint on, concentrated on adventures as the
driving force and became a tool to enhance not dictate the campaign.
I for one would welcome that strategy as a "rebirth".
If somebody besides EGG is to be in charge of "official" GH material, I am damn glad it's you. I agree completely.
Has for the UnderOerth, there is some notes in "The Adventure begins" about a reunification Derro war in progress...maybe some of this chaos spill a little to the surface.
As to the Greyhawk Underdark, most people so far do not want it to become "Forgotten Greyhawk Realms of the Underdark: Haven of the Drow". Unfortunately, I think the Forgotten Realms went a little too far with the drow theme. It has made everything else seem plain by comparison. Sure, the drow are very cool, hence the popularity of anything written about them. Due to the original mystique of the drow, nearly anyone could write something about the drow and sell it well. Al Gore could have written his "impassioned" version of Drizzt and it would have sold. The open game liscence has spawned many a drow book. All have sold well.
Unfortunately, I think that a conscious effort must now be made to ensure that the drow merely have a place in the Greyhawk Underdark, rather than dominate it. This is mainly to differentiate the Greyhawk Underdark from the Forgotten Realms Underdark. The drow might dominate their own areas, but other races dominate their own areas as well, including derro, duergar, svirfneblin, aboleths, mind flayers, beholders, meenlocks, dark creepers, meazles, jermalaine, xvarts, and many others. Then you might also have dragon lairs, githyanki outposts, and other minor areas. I'd make a point of giving all of the Greyhawk Underdark's main inhabitants "equal billing".
Even though Ctiy of the Spider Queen is about the drow, I continuously see that it is not just popular for that reason. It is also very popular because it isn't just presented information. It is an adventure presented in the form of a very detailed sourcebbook. Players actually get to learn about it by doing it. A sourcebook generally satisfies only the interests of a dm. A sourcebook/adventure satisfies the interests of players and dm's. Players are able to say "we went here, and did this." This really is the most important thing about adventures. When we dm's and players "get our geek on" and talk to each other about our campaigns, the topics are usually about events that occured and not about individual characters and every detail about them. A character type is just merely mentioned("Bubba is my paladin character."); but what that character has done however is usually another story(...and after Bubba and his comapanions defeated the Gloom of Gradsul, we went on to thwart an assassination attempt on the King himself!...). The "what was done" supercedes the "who did it".
Adult fantasy is definitely where it is at. Greyhawk is more Sword and Sorcery than High Fantasy, but it does have elements of both; both can be adult fantasy(and I don't mean "adult fantasy" in the way that The Book of Erotic Fantasy is ;) ).
To put it one way, I think that most of us would rather have Obi-wan lopping off arms in a cantina than having Ewoks kick stormtrooper butt.
I just hope that any sequels to Greyhawk stick to the original and not add in teddy bear familiars and Daern's Magic Legos of Building to draw in the kiddie crowd. The adult elements are what made Conan the Barbarian, Predator, Alien, and other such films popular. Now we have Alien vs. Predator, which was oh so much better than any of the previous movies...
The adult element adds an edginess to Greyhawk. I think it is important to maintain that.
While I agree with Cebrion that Greyhawk has aspects of high fantasy, I wouldn't mind seeing this downplayed. The "epic" struggle between Good and Evil doesn't really appeal to me. One of the things I like about Greyhawk is that not all "good guys" are on the same side. Think of Trithereon and Pholtus. In Dragonlance, for example, while I do like it, I don't like how while "good guys" may have conflicts, they're always ultimately supposed to join forces against the "bad guys".
Deep Oerth has the capacity to touch and effect every corner of the Flanaess. Yet, it is tucked away down there, out of sight. This means no great disruptions to affairs on the surface are mandatory. Such could be had but the influence of Deep Oerth could be far more subtle, but no less telling. You can have your cake and eat it too.
GVD
I may not have put it in the right English terms, but don't get me wrong, I completely support your idea, although I would have objections (is this the right word?) concerning the realisation.
Like OMOTE said, a new main event focusing on the Underdark region would bring WoG in the danger to finish like FR which gives me the impression of having changed completely into a *War between Surface and Underworld* game that is becoming not exactly bad, but simply BORING.
It's just a problem of the point of view:
While you apparently want the Oerth Underdark more detailled, my vision of a new Greyhawk product would be a module detailling the other parts of Oerik and the rest of Oerth.
It's just my opinion, but I would enjoy a sourcebook on Fireland and the Elven West far more than *Underdark for Oerth*, although I am interested in the topic in general.
That was also the reason why I liked Chainmail so much!
If it's a hook you seek, I think the GH timeline needs to be advanced quite a number of years. It' about time the Flanaess had some years of peace and tranquility!
FPQ
Indeed, it would be pure venom for the setting if people tried to push it further and further at any cost, like they did with Dragonlance and Ravenloft.
I personally would suggest to leave the line after the LG campaign and give a rough overview for let's say, the next 50 years.
Then I would strongly recommend doing some historical sourcebooks, like Mr Mona suggested:
...I must say, however, that there is some personal appeal to a treatment that would allow players to "pick their era," so to speak...
I must personally say that I plan to do something alike for some time - based on the Blackmoor material recently released. (Which is supposed to end under my Christmas Tree.
)The focus should be on what the characters are doing, not who they are.
This exactly describes the problem I have with the current WOTC product line: too many character options and very few adventures.
This exactly describes the problem I have with the current WOTC product line: too many character options and very few adventures.
Hear hear!
For the entire 1st edition, there was no need for sourcebooks except for the original folio, everything was adventures. If you want source info, stick it in along with the adventure, much like early Dragonlance and ICE's MERP did.
Speaking of MERP and selected time periods, almost every MERP adventure or sourcebook had 3 different versions of each location for 3 different time periods that were the same throughout the game. One for around the time of the war of the ring, one for the 4th age, and one for several hundred years before the war of the ring. I started doing something similar to this with greyhawk using the Marklands book, but as usual didn't have time to continue.
Halber
In brief, the magazines are not the appropriate format to "ralaunch" the campaign setting. There's not enough room, for starters. Secondly, only a minority of the audience is truly interested in a vision of Greyhawk more specific than that outlined by, say, Maure Castle (Dungeon #112) or the recent Istivin articles.
Further, Wizards of the Coast has an ambiguous policy regarding how much Greyhawk is "too much," reinforcing the "generalist" approach. I'm currently in discussions with them to bring this distinction into sharper focus, a fact necessitated by some "in the works" projects. Until those discussions have been held (we're talking several weeks at the least), I find it very difficult to speak authoritatively on the subject.
I think, at least within the context of the magazine (and Dungeon in particular), that it is possible to have one's cake and eat it too--that is to say to include material that will seem "generic" to most readers but that will still tickle the fancy of those "in the know." It's tempting to view that approach as tokenism, but we've been able to make some (in my admittedly biased opinion) fairly significant contributions over the last couple of years. Maure Castle. The Isle of Dread. "Raiders of the Black Ice." Even "Racing the Snake," from 104 and "Tammeraut's Fate" from #106. Certainly the Flanaess map that will soon appear on newsstands.
To Greyhawk fans, these represent exploration of new areas or much needed support (in the case of the map). To non-Greyhawk fans (who would need to change the proper nouns to fit their campaigns anyway), they ideally represent fun, easily adaptable adventures and articles (ahem, in the classic Sword & Sorcery style, I might add).
The way I see it, Dungeon can have its cake and eat it too. So far, Wizards has agreed with this philosophy, but it remains to be seen if this will hold true forever. Keep your eyes on the next Adventure Path, which should be a good barometer of where things stand.
--Erik Mona
*
I've come to believe that the true "hook" for the campaign setting is "Adventures in the classic Sword & Sorcery Style." Let Eberron and its fans chase the latest "kewl" innovation. Leave the flying surfboards and trains and warforged to a setting that was meant to accommodate them from the ground up. Adding a mish-mash of "new fantasy" ideas to Greyhawk is like putting the proverbial lipstick on a pig.
So, does this mean we won't have to read any more Dragon editorials on how if we "don't embrace changes" like dinosaurs and steam engines and the like, our favorite game will just wither on the vine and die of atrophy? And here I thought there was enough room in D&D for all styles of play.
Happy Gaming.
It does get the message across - an intense, visceral and instantaneous dislike. It is intense; you know what you feel without question. It is visceral; you “feel” it in your gut. It is instantaneous; there is not a cognitive process involved - the feeling “just is” as soon as the matter comes up.
I would add “irrational.” Despite the ability to reason and develop distinctions of type and kind, “hate” overrides reason in that you feel it despite reason and even after having drawn reasoned distinctions.
Maybe “burning” would be another defining term. “Hate” burns. It gnaws. It is an ache.
I greatly enjoy a number of WotC products, the quality of which just seems to be getting better and better. Frost Burn is my frozen dream come true. The Complete Warrior, Divine and Arcane are superb, winning me over even after I had thought to dislike significant portions of them. The Draconomicon was brilliant. Liber Mortis, while not as good, eventually was good enough that I shelled out for it and am pleased that I did. I do not dislike WotC products. Rather, I like them a great deal.
I, however, hate WotC. I would see the same people responsible for all of the above which I enjoy unemployed and beggared, living out of cardboard boxes under overpasses, being hassled by the police and looking for pennies in the gutter when they are not warming themselves a over heating grates. Why? Greyhawk.
While I can speak very well of individual products and designers whose work I enjoy, I am almost pathologically incapable of saying a good word about WotC. And I am not alone. I live in a city that boasts several, outstanding full service game stores offering all the usual features as well as a host of “extras” that make for a lively and genuine gaming community. When talk turns to WotC, it is almost like the cliche phrase, “I spit on the Old One.” No one has one good word to say and WotC products are purchased “despite” them being WotC products. Why? Well, among my friends the answer is Greyhawk, but more generally the sentiment is wide spread, although not universal.
Why a Greyhawker would have an issue with WotC is not hard to fathom. From other’s perspectives, there is doubtless a rationale for their feelings as well.
With the rpg community graying, does it make any sense for WotC is be complacent in the face of such feelings? Even if it is a “love/hate” relationship that sees product purchased, however reluctantly? Is it wise to simply shrug it off?
If 4th Edition is not OGL and backwards compatible with 3rd Edition, I will continue to support OGL products and WotC can choke on 4th Edition. I did not have this option when 3rd Edition replaced 2nd Edition. A move to 4th Edition will not be analogous. I will still be able to get support for 3rd Edition without WotC when they move to a 4th Edition.
Many 2nd Edition, or earlier edition, players have already left WotC and subsist on their own creativity and that of fan communities. Not a few, “Spit on the Old One.” That WotC was able to marginalize the loss of these gamers is attributable to many wanting some official support for the edition they play and there being no such 2nd Edition support when 3rd Edition launched. That wind in WotC’s sails will not be blowing when 4th Edition sets out upon the water.
This puts a point on questions about the wisdom of a company that can sell products but which engenders such hard feelings among its customers. WotC, to use the business phrase, does not have substantial reserves of “good will.” This could hurt them in a pince. A new edition, particularly if it is not backwards compatible and there is no 4th Edition OGL, could well feel that pinch. The ability of the present OGL to continue to support 3rd Edition without WotC is a substantial change from the launch of prior new editions.
What really puzzles is not only why WotC blithely doesn’t mind being reviled, but why they cannot or will not take the simplest steps that would do much to better the general feeling.
For Greyhawk fans, one product a year, or one product every two years, would likely suffice, at a minimal level in the latter case. This is not a new idea and has been suggested repeatedly. But there are no takers in Washington State. One product would so throughly fragment the market and negatively impact revenue that it is better to be widely reviled?
The proof of this would be fascinating to see. I cannot imagine how this makes good business sense.“I spit on the Old One.”
GVD
Erik Mona wrote:
>>The way I see it, Dungeon can have its cake and eat it too. So far, Wizards has agreed with this philosophy, but it remains to be seen if this will hold true forever. Keep your eyes on the next Adventure Path, which should be a good barometer of where things stand.<<
This comment is a double-edged sword it seems. While I am very happy the WOTC has agreed to go this route with Dungeon Mag., it almost seems as if we are being told that this will not last forever (which is understandible, I suppose). I'm curious about the next Adventure Path that Mr. EM comments about. Are you saying that it will have a distict GH flavor to it, -OR- are you saying that it will diverge away from GH giving us a model for which Dungeon will now take (presumably away from the GH route)?
I'm inclined to believe that the next adventure path will be substantial in 'Hawk." I wish the very best to EM and his endeavors.
...........................Omote
FPQ
Most of these groups, such as 'Hawkers, are simply not being supported, while some groups get more "support" than they know what to do with.
Not that I want WotC to dictate what Greyhawk should be like for each of us. But something would be cool.
At present, all of my efforts (Greyhawk and otherwise) are limited to the magazines, which take up a great deal of my time.
And, to answer another point on this thread, at least while I'm in charge you can be sure you won't see editorials telling everyone to embrace the future. Dragon should speak to all flavors of D&D, including classic swords & sorcery.
--Erik Mona
But unlike some have suggested here, I don't believe that "history" is such a strength.
Don't get me wrong. Greyhawk's enduring and fairly complex history is incredibly important, but I've come to believe that it is more important to hard-core fans (like those of us who regularly post here or at Canonfire) and designers (who after all, ought to remain consistent) than it is to the general D&D enthusiast.
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that Greyhawk must remain backward-looking, focused on its past glory. That would be no way to relaunch the setting. I'm just suggesting that, for all those newer players who missed out on some of the classic Greyhawk adventures that we all hear about (like, for instance, Dungeon 116's article about the 30 greatest D&D adventures of all time), those adventures be made available as something other than a .pdf file. After all, what would make a more compelling adventure: ransacking some old tomb, or braving the fabled Tomb of Horrors? Making Greyhawk's past more accessible will make it more appealing to gamers today.
I think this also relates to Erik's comment about playing in different historical eras (which, by the way, is a great idea, and one that I have seen discussed on these boards before). If you want to play in the pre-Wars era, then maybe you could run through the original Temple of Elemental Evil.
Also, for what it's worth, I think that Erik's on the right track in terms of how to differentiate the Greyhawk setting from the Forgotten Realms.
To succeed financially, Greyhawk must offer something that other settings do not. Eberron has "new fantasy" locked up for the foreseeable future. The Forgotten Realms is the place for deep historical pornography and NPC family trees. Classic Sword & Sorcery has been all but abandoned at an official level.
The Realms is also sword & sorcery, as I'm relieved to see Peter Archer realizes. Ed's Knights of Myth Drannor campaign is as S&S as Gary's Greyhawk Campaign; his stories of Mirt and Durnan are as S&S as Gary's of Gord and Chert. Most of the authors that influenced the Flanaess influenced Faerûn too. I know Greyhawk is your favourite, and the S&S slant is quite appropriate for it, but please don't distort the Realms for the sake of that.
I otherwise quite agree with you on the role of adventure and the primacy of adventure modules in continuing the setting. Imagine if we'd had half a dozen more S4s, and try to give them to us.
And I do think there is a difference in tone. Greyhawk, in my experience, is far more subtle than the Realms, which after all has tons of mortals who became gods, gods who killed gods, etc. I'm not saying that to condemn the Realms (remember, I co-wrote the latest god book), but I do think it's a fact and a significant point of departure between the settings.
You can point to Iuz, and perhaps one-off mentions that Ehlonna and Fharlanghn walk the Material Plane, but all of that is nothing when compared to the Time of Troubles, the Godswar, Bane and Torm battling in Tantras harbor, Finder Wyvernspur becoming a lesser god in the modern era, etc.
--Erik Mona
The Realms is also sword & sorcery, as I'm relieved to see Peter Archer realizes. Ed's Knights of Myth Drannor campaign is as S&S as Gary's Greyhawk Campaign; his stories of Mirt and Durnan are as S&S as Gary's of Gord and Chert. Most of the authors that influenced the Flanaess influenced Faerûn too.
Ed Greenwood's campaigns and stories are well and fine, but neither are accurate indicators of the tone and content of the current crop of FR game books.
There's a reason that Ed himself doesn't use the Time of Troubles or any of the other "Realms-shaking events" in his own games. They've taken the "official" world far, far from his original vision, and never for the better.
I'd argue that now, in the published material, FR is primarily a setting for novels and video games and secondarily, by a wide margin, a sort of four-color superhero setting with swords.
S&S is about gritty, down-and-dirty amoral fortune-seeking where anyone and everyone is just one big score away from scoring a king's ransom and just one sword-thrust away from an unmarked grave, not which god Elmonster will sex up and/or beat up today or which pet NPC will remake the world without your input tomorrow.
But this NOT a FR thread or forum, so let's keep things on track from here on out.
You can point to Iuz, and perhaps one-off mentions that Ehlonna and Fharlanghn walk the Material Plane, but all of that is nothing when compared to the Time of Troubles, the Godswar, Bane and Torm battling in Tantras harbor, Finder Wyvernspur becoming a lesser god in the modern era, etc.
--Erik Mona
To me, this statement is why I'm not a big fan of Forgotten Realms. I'm not against it, just not my bag. I prefer less godly intervention.
Just my opinion.
ails will not be blowing when 4th Edition sets out upon the water.
If 4th Edition is not OGL and backwards compatible with 3rd Edition, I will continue to support OGL products and WotC can choke on 4th Edition. I did not have this option when 3rd Edition replaced 2nd Edition. A move to 4th Edition will not be analogous. I will still be able to get support for 3rd Edition without WotC when they move to a 4th Edition.
GVD
If WoTC would do anything alike, they would loose 3/4 of their fans in a rush!
Including ME!!!
Besides, I don't think they will ever do that - they get too much money by supporters of OGL worlds, just think of Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Warcraft...
OGL, and ONLY OGL in my oppinion, has made WotC rpg book selling world leader... I certainly can't believe they would risk their position!
Somehow, I missed the magazine context in which GVD posted his first message.
In brief, the magazines are not the appropriate format to "ralaunch" the campaign setting. There's not enough room, for starters. Secondly, only a minority of the audience is truly interested in a vision of Greyhawk more specific than that outlined by, say, Maure Castle (Dungeon #112) or the recent Istivin articles.
Further, Wizards of the Coast has an ambiguous policy regarding how much Greyhawk is "too much," reinforcing the "generalist" approach. I'm currently in discussions with them to bring this distinction into sharper focus, a fact necessitated by some "in the works" projects. Until those discussions have been held (we're talking several weeks at the least), I find it very difficult to speak authoritatively on the subject.
[-snip-]
--Erik Mona
Why does this statement give me a queasy feeling? The next thing we will be seeing is the Eberron Adventure Path in Dungeon. God forbid.
