What exactly is going on with the DL deities in Amber and Ashes? I've read all the major novels and know Takhisis and Paladine were taken out of the pantheon but why are the gods roaming around? Is this some kind of self imposed thing or is it a "time of troubles" for Dragonlance?
No "Time of Troubles" in the Forgotten Realms sense, where the gods were banished from the divine realm. What's going on is that the gods have returned during the Age of Mortals. The mortal races have seen the gods come and go twice during a relatively short span of history. With the discovery of ambient magic, the gods aren't even the only source of healing and miracles. They are in danger of being irrelevant, which is pretty difficult thing for a god! Meanwhile there is a power void in both the pantheons of good and evil, so there is trouble in both the divine and mortal realm. This is an unprecedented time in the history of Krynn, one in which the gods are scrambling to find their place in both arenas.
Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.
What exactly is going on with the DL deities in Amber and Ashes? I've read all the major novels and know Takhisis and Paladine were taken out of the pantheon but why are the gods roaming around? Is this some kind of self imposed thing or is it a "time of troubles" for Dragonlance?
***POTENTIAL SPOILERS***
Mortals, whom the gods look to followers have gotten used to not having the gods around for something like 30-40 years or so (not sure of the actual time frame). Some have realized they don't really need the gods, and they can make do on their own, especially with the discovery of mysticism. Some feel that the gods are fickle and keep leaving everyone in despair, so they stopped trusting in them.
As for the gods themselves, particularly the evil pantheon, they are vying for their new seats of power amongst their peers. AFAIK, Myshakal is the undisputed uber god for the good pantheon. For evil, there is a power struggle going on, and most of the pantheon is plotting against each other trying to take the mantle of leadership or at least most powerful. Sargonnas has an army of minotaurs and ogres taking over Silvanesti, and spreading his influence. Chemosh is creating vampiric followers spreading his liturgy across the lands like a plague. Zeboim hasn't made an overt plan yet, aside from plotting against Chemosh personally. Nuitari has 'reawakened' the tower of Istar for his own purposes. I haven't heard anything about Hiddukel or Morgion yet. As for the neutral gods, they still have Gilean, so there is no struggle there that I'm aware of.
What novel states that Nuitari has reawakened the Tower of high Sorcery in sunken Istar?
Not asking as a DL gamer, but as a Reader. (The latest novels lacked of good style, IMHO.)
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Asking as a DL gamer, not as a Reader: Are the infos there really so tremendous that people are right when they tell about that the 5th Age Book has to be rewritten?
That being said once the focus changes to Rhys and Nightshade it's all gravy.
My favorite Dragonlance quote now comes from an exchange these two had.
Rhys- "What's the problem? I thought kender were adventurous, increadibly curious and completly without fear."
Nightshade- "I'm a kender. Not stupid. This is stupid."
And I for one am glad that Krell is as different from Soth as possible.
Whoopsie... My players have already sent him *to the Mists*...
... My current stuff is going on in 4th Age anyway...Thanks
And I for one am glad that Krell is as different from Soth as possible.
Personally, Krell is my least favorite character in ANY story post war of souls. He's got plenty of power as is his ken for being a death knight, and he's sadistic. Outside of that, he seems to have the mental acuity of a paperweight, and in A&A, was outwitted 2-3 times. How many times did that ever happen to Soth? For that matter, how many times did someone see Soth face to face and live to tell about it, let alone outwit him? Krell is a sad, sorry proxy for Soth, the one baddie that had a sense of honor buried under a cold, calculating, and thoroughly dangerous exterior. Maybe I'm so jaded against Krell since I REALLY liked Soth, and was upset to see him go away. Even so, Krell doesn't do anything for me, but elicit a roll of my eyes whenever he's mentioned in print.
Its a curse, a punishment. It's suposed to be torture. (now I never actually understood this whole curse somehow supplies stupid amounts of power... like 'The Mummy' but that's not the point of this discussion). Krell angered a very tempermental goddess and he was turned into a Death Knight so his soul can never escape Krynn and keep being tortured. His power was a non-point since his imprisonment made that power useless. To further his frustraitions.
So he's not smart, not a angty tragic hero, and a brute. All in all he's anything BUT a Soth clone...
Originality... what a concept.
I, for one, am happy that they're different.
Krell is not too bright at all. Very gullible. The only time he's shown any ability to think for himself so far was when he gets to be sadistic and breaks bones while playing people at Khas. Slow witted, even his short, squat frame lends itself to an almost comical air to him. Nightshade saw him purely as a spirit, and thought he could crush Krell himself he had so little respect for him, and disregarded him so much. Mina outwitted him. Rhys and Nightshade did as well. Chemosh and Zeboim use him as their little pawn. So far, he's being portrayed as a comical dunce in a powerful body, almost as dumb as a gully dwarf, but I think (not sure) that Krell can actually count. How can anyone feel anything for this character? I look forward to his destruction if for no other reason than to get rid of him in order to have a new baddie on the scene.
I may also be bitter due to the lack of a serious anti-hero type so far. The dragon overlords were freakishly overpowering for the mortal races, so that was waaaaaaay too one sided. Then they get killed off (mostly thanks to Takhisis of all people), and now what is there to spark interest in terms of bad guys that make you truly worry? Mina is about it. Raistlin is gone. Fistandantilus, who knows? The KoT/KoN are all but neutered/splintered. Soth is gone. No dragon highlords. But we get a moron in a death knight's body. I mean really, so far you have the minotaur hordes, and Mina as antagonists and recurring enemies. That's about it. I hope we get something else soon, because Krell just doesn't cut it for me. Maybe if there were other baddies, then my disgust for this character wouldn't be so bitter. There are lots of bad guy archtypes, I just don't like the one chosen for Krell. You can have the tragic, fallen knight type like Soth. There's the money obsessed calculating greedy type like Targonne. There are the paranoid, contingency planners. The power seekers (magic, knowledge, etc). The genocidal types. Ones driven by passions. Revenge driven. Misguided sycophants and/or prophets. Vigilantes that go too far in their self appointed mission that they are actually evil. Those that strive to crush the forces of good and/or beauty and/or life for no other reason than it's diametrically opposed to who and what they are. The list goes on and on and on. Krell is comical to me at best. That is just sad given the potential for a powerful character that he could have been, and not necessarily being a Soth clone.
edit-
I thought a little more about this, and I guess Krell strikes me as a glorified goon or thug, not an awe inspiring bad guy. His first name IMO should be something like 'Mungo'.
"Mungo Krell kill you now, you on my island of cursedness."
(would be victim) "fetch the stick Mungo" *throws stick, Mungo barks and gives chase after the stick, victim escapes. Mungo wonders where they went, gets mad after awhile, punches a wall, flips off Zeboim, then gives a dullwitted chuckle as he scampers off into some decrepid tower to fume some more.
I just don't like the "Krell is no Soth" arguement because he was never ment to be, I supose it's a bit of a pet peeve. Reading the above though I see your point. There are certain points I agree with, that there is a lack of strong advisaries. I also agree that the Dragon Overlords were, while alive too overpowered for mortals to ever hope to beat, and having them die so fast just is off putting. People could not stand against the overlords... the gods kill the overlords easily... but people have defeated gods... it just doesn't doesn't sit very well.
So I disagree that Krell is a bad or useless character... however I agree that there is a vaccuum space where a competent villian is needed (Mina doesn't count, the end of A&A points this out). Maybe Nuitari's pet mages will prove capable.
Maybe if there were other baddies, then my disgust for this character wouldn't be so bitter.
Well, there are the Tarmaks in their invasion of the Plains of Dust under the control of their far-distant Emperor on the Island-continent of Tarmak.
Well, there are the Tarmaks in their invasion of the Plains of Dust under the control of their far-distant Emperor on the Island-continent of Tarmak.
Hmm, I hadn't heard of this. Is this supposed to be featured in an upcoming novel/trilogy or something? The last I heard of the Tarmaks was when Ariakan/Ariakus (can't ever remember which is which) conscripted them in his war.
Just what Dragonlance needs... another "world shattering" event.. God I hope the invasion gets repelled quickly without changing much. Its starting to be every other year for these people there is some great calamity that threatens their continent.
While conflict is needed, I dont see why every single things needs to change the Dragonlance in some way. Would be nice for a little break for everything to get settled. People on Ansalon must yawn whenever something happens.. "our continent and way of life is under attack....again? *yawn*.." Invasions galore, Gods leaving/returning, magic leaving/returning, high powered dragons, etc. I personalyl would like to see small conflicts happen with individual people in the world, than everything seem to affect a big area on the continent. Seems the Dragonlance world changes everytime a new novel comes out.
*edit* and Talinthas beat me because I was ranting..heh
Its detailed in the Linsha trilogy
Just what Dragonlance needs... another "world shattering" event.. God I hope the invasion gets repelled quickly without changing much. Its starting to be every other year for these people there is some great calamity that threatens their continent.
While conflict is needed, I dont see why every single things needs to change the Dragonlance in some way. Would be nice for a little break for everything to get settled. People on Ansalon must yawn whenever something happens.. "our continent and way of life is under attack....again? *yawn*.." Invasions galore, Gods leaving/returning, magic leaving/returning, high powered dragons, etc. I personalyl would like to see small conflicts happen with individual people in the world, than everything seem to affect a big area on the continent. Seems the Dragonlance world changes everytime a new novel comes out.
Thanks for the info guys. And I agree with you TrueBlue (hey, that rhymes!). I'd like to see some smaller scale repercussions or conflicts. A story does not need to be world shattering/altering in order to have impact. Smaller scale things are just as nice IMHO. Take "Dezra's Quest" for instance. We see the emergence of a small sect of mutated creatures in the Skorenoi, and one big baddie, Grimbaugh. I LOVED that story. Lotsa impact, intrigue, and suspense, and it was all localized. Dezra and Caramon would never had even known about it unless that centaur guy came to them asking for help. They didn't need a continent wide invasion in order to be called to action.
Currently, we have a huge minotaur army invading from the southeast. From the southwest, we have the Tarmaks invading. And in the midst of the rest of the continent, we see vampiresque things spreading everywhere. Yet we really don't have a centralized uber baddie leading these forces AFAIK. They are more like invading hordes of berzerkers rather than cohesive forces. But I digress.
Speaking of digression, talk about an evil god lucking out in the conquest dept. Chemosh and the others are actively taking steps toward greater influence and power, Sargonnas comes back from the pantheon's hiatus courtesy of Tak, and surprise! His favored people, the minotaur are instigating an invasion, alongside his other favored, the ogres. They didn't even need Sarge for their plans of conquest, they just did it, and when he came back, all he had to do really was cheer them on, with minimal input. Huzzah! Free powerbase. :P
Speaking of digression, talk about an evil god lucking out in the conquest dept. Chemosh and the others are actively taking steps toward greater influence and power, Sargonnas comes back from the pantheon's hiatus courtesy of Tak, and surprise! His favored people, the minotaur are instigating an invasion, alongside his other favored, the ogres. They didn't even need Sarge for their plans of conquest, they just did it, and when he came back, all he had to do really was cheer them on, with minimal input. Huzzah! Free powerbase. :P
Sargonnas is actually in huge competition with Chemosh for the devotion of the minotuars. With the gods absence from Krynn Big T moved in and got the minotuars to start worshipping spirits and the dead. Many believe that Sargonnas died valiantly fighting Chaos. With the minotuars now accustomed to paying homage to the dead this left Chemosh a great opportunity to move in and take advantage. Sargonnas has a great deal of work ahead in order to win over the minotuars again.
Also of note is that there are elves who have started worshipping the Bloody Condor in order to help exact revenge on all those that have done injustice to the elven people in the recent years. An interesting development to say the least.
The thing is, and I am convinced that we all could agree to this, that 5th Age War of Souls was a big mess...
I really liked the original 5th Age concept, with the Gods gone and a period of stability upcoming... Just as described in the *Heroes of Hope* series with Dhamon etc.
But now, there are so many ERRATA in the current stuff that I really start to feel sick about it:
- Where is Chaos? Wouldn't he have resumed his battle when he found out that he hadn't destroyed Krynn? (I dedicated an earlier thread to that.)
- How do the other gods manage the absence of Taki and Master P?
- Where's Lord Soth? - Apparently he isn't in Ravenloft anymore.
and so on...
Enough of ranting, what I want to emphasize is that I think that for these questions we may never get an answer - not because people wouldn't want to, but just because they recycled the setting so many times and so simply forgot some details...
But for the rest, the gods seem to be doing just fine without Tak and Paladine. I think they are actually more happy since now they get to do things in the world instead of always being "on the bench" per se. Its nice to see other gods get time in the light. From the original novels you would almost assume Krynn had only two gods. While you hear about the other ones, you never quite saw them do much.
As for Lord Soth, he was killed in the War of Souls. A lot of people seem to like how he died, personally it looked cheap to me. It almost seemed they just wanted to kill him off so they wouldnt have to deal with the Ravenloft issue. I dont like the argument that his time had passed because all they had to do was not talk about him for awhile. Let him wallow(sp?) away in his castle like he did for hundreds of years before the War of the Lance. Thatw as supposed to be his punishment anyways. It really annoyed me how he died (and not because I think he's "so cool"! I just found it cheesy and almost added in there as an afterthought.
I hope that everyone doesnt die when their time is done in the spotlight. "Retire" them for a little... years in Dragonlance time.. and then later on maybe pick up on them or something. I dunno.. it just irked me.
I am just getting tired of the world changing after each novel tho. It would be nice if there was a period of rest, where problems occur and evils need to be righted, but not anything that changes the world. I just would like to see more individuals spotlighted than nations and huge groups of people. But then again.. we now have the Solamnia trilogy coming up too.. so thats another event thats bound to affect all of Ansalon...
Sargonnas is actually in huge competition with Chemosh for the devotion of the minotuars. With the gods absence from Krynn Big T moved in and got the minotuars to start worshipping spirits and the dead. Many believe that Sargonnas died valiantly fighting Chaos. With the minotuars now accustomed to paying homage to the dead this left Chemosh a great opportunity to move in and take advantage.
Provided Nephera and the forerunners take that path, and also, on how far their influence spreads among the settlers and legions invading Qulinost. It's not a done deal, but yes, Chemosh has a good opportunity to capitalize on. Historically though, Sargonnas has been associated with minotaurs (outside of the ogres or small groups of elves that worship him) so it's every bit a drop in the bucket for Sargonnas as it could potentially be for Chemosh, just moreso for Sarge IMO because of his intrinsic connection to the minotaur race. I'd hedge my bets that if Sarge made an appearance, or gave some kind of sign, the bulk of the minotaur forces in Qualinost would rally to him in a heartbeat.
Sargonnas has a great deal of work ahead in order to win over the minotuars again.
I don't think so, but that's just my opinion
. It all depends on a)how influential the forerunner faith has spread to the common minotaurs, and
b) Nephera and her followers have the insight to start praying to Chemosh for power
Also of note is that there are elves who have started worshipping the Bloody Condor in order to help exact revenge on all those that have done injustice to the elven people in the recent years. An interesting development to say the least.
This sect has been around for a long time AFAIK, but I imagine they would have a little boost in enrollment in light of the loss of their ancestral lands. So actions taken by the minotaurs in the name of conquest is good for Sarge, and the elves who would like revenge against the minotaurs and others for taking their lands also benefits Sarge. Win win situation for him still, and he has minimal input in the matter. It's like a forest fire that is already well underway, and Sarge is there ready to fan the flames wondering if it's even necessary.
I am just getting tired of the world changing after each novel tho. It would be nice if there was a period of rest, where problems occur and evils need to be righted, but not anything that changes the world. I just would like to see more individuals spotlighted than nations and huge groups of people. But then again.. we now have the Solamnia trilogy coming up too.. so thats another event thats bound to affect all of Ansalon...
Yeah, the novel line that first boostedthe series comes now in the peril of destroying it... There's a general lack of interest for these new upcoming *shaking the world for another 100 times* books...Now granted change will occur throughout the years, but sheesh. Each new trilogy doesnt need to be world shattering. Or displace great numbers of people. Invasion after invasion, Cataclysm after Cataclysm.. it just becomes tedious.
I dunno I think I've rambled on and its late. I guess I just would like to see Dragonlance settle down a little and we start seeing insight into people just trying to make it in the world as it is, not always in some way changing the world.
I guess I just would like to see Dragonlance settle down a little and we start seeing insight into people just trying to make it in the world as it is, not always in some way changing the world.
I'd like to see a little more focus on character development, and trying to potentially establish a new core group of heroes, which is severely lacking in the world. We had Odilla and Gerard (I think that was their names, can't remember) during the War of Souls, and who have now fallen into obscurity. The Heroes of the Heart have either disbanded or have all been killed off (more the latter vs the former). We have Rhys and Nightshade so far, and as much as I'm getting to like these characters, I'm afraid they will fall into anonymity shortly so we focus (once again) on some apocalyptic calamity and/or invasion. I think this is part of why the Heroes of the Lance were so popular. There were lots of stories that were written, featuring recurring characters, that didn't face world changing events every other day. It really wasn't until the War of the Lance that they faced a world affecting trial.
I guess it boils down to the fact that we've seen TONS of evil forces and armies and grossly overpowering dragons, and virtually little to nothing in the way of heroes or even a good aligned force to combat all the bad things happening to Krynn. We don't really have anyone to root for, and in the absence of heroes, all we have so far is more and more problems getting heaped on the world. It's a dark, foreboding palor that has been cast over the world, and needs IMHO to be worked on.
I guess it boils down to the fact that we've seen TONS of evil forces and armies and grossly overpowering dragons, and virtually little to nothing in the way of heroes or even a good aligned force to combat all the bad things happening to Krynn. We don't really have anyone to root for, and in the absence of heroes, all we have so far is more and more problems getting heaped on the world. It's a dark, foreboding palor that has been cast over the world, and needs IMHO to be worked on.
There is that new Solamic Knight series that is coming out soon. Maybe something good will come of that.
As far as Sargonnas and the Ogres, I thought Takhisis was the ogres main god as the minotaurs hate the ogres because they enslaved them at some point in the past. As far as who is their main god now, I am not sure.
I would enjoy a book that focuses on characters of the AoM/AoD much more than another sequel...
My next campaign will focus on a possible Ergothian Expedition to Taladas in the Age of Might, anyway...
I'd like to see a little more focus on character development, and trying to potentially establish a new core group of heroes, which is severely lacking in the world. We had Odilla and Gerard (I think that was their names, can't remember) during the War of Souls, and who have now fallen into obscurity. The Heroes of the Heart have either disbanded or have all been killed off (more the latter vs the former). We have Rhys and Nightshade so far, and as much as I'm getting to like these characters, I'm afraid they will fall into anonymity shortly so we focus (once again) on some apocalyptic calamity and/or invasion. I think this is part of why the Heroes of the Lance were so popular. There were lots of stories that were written, featuring recurring characters, that didn't face world changing events every other day. It really wasn't until the War of the Lance that they faced a world affecting trial.
This is what I'd like to see too, more character development. I love the stories that are told about people before the major event happens. An indepth tale about Nightshade's obsession with the dead (beyond what A&A told us). I'd also like to read more about the inner workings of the Dwaven Kingdoms. Forunately, unlike Ansalon, things don't happen that change a whole lot there (it does sometimes, I realize, but not as frequently). :P
And PERSONALLY, I'd like more books based on the Magic Cousins, but that's just me, I love the ToHS stuff.
[edit]Of course, the next book in the Dark Disciple Trilogy will more than likely cover stuff with them, after Nuitaris little... project)[/edit]
Regarding the original question - does something happen to the moons in the Chaos War or the War of Souls? Or are the three of them left the same?
During the Chaos War, the moons are no longer visible over Krynn, they are replaced with a single moon that bares resemblence to Earth's moon. At the end of the War of Souls, the original three moons return, as they were.
Just a friendly reminder.
Randal
During the Chaos War, the moons are no longer visible over Krynn, they are replaced with a single moon that bares resemblence to Earth's moon. At the end of the War of Souls, the original three moons return, as they were.
I agree with the moderator here. I'm reading the series now. Thanks for spoiling it for me.
And if you didn't want to know it, this string was a bad choice to read ;)
*spoiler below
(No gods except for Takhisis of course)
There must have been other things transpiring between them.
Has anyone had any thoughts as to what the other gods were up to during the period that Big T stole the world? Other that looking for Krynn that is.
There must have been other things transpiring between them.
Seriously...?! I got that impression that most DL gods spent their free - time with us here, on our Earth
According to an older thread, Chaos is having his holidays in Finnland.
Surely it was Mishakal who became famous for working as a nun in the slums of Kalkutta...
Fizban just did what he does every year: He puts on his scarlett robes and quits shaving his beard some time and, sponsored by chocolate factories and the CocaCola company, stands in our shopping mall wishing us a merry christmas...
O, and don't forget Chemosh: He and some of his closest buddies became a Hollywood attraction when caused the comparses to *special effect* as *no, no, no they are no real undead foes* in that pirate movie with Johny Depp and Orlando Bloom last year...
One of the major setting problems that will never be solved...
;)
I hear Morgion took up needlepoint when he wasn't searching but that's just hearsay