General consensus on the Psion board appears to be that the Soulknife is either balanced or a bit underpowered. Suffers from the same multiclassing problems as spellcasters as well.
Of course, that's assuming a "standard" magic item distribution. Personally, I don't think DS has any less of a distribution than normal settings -- it's just much more heavily skewed towards psionic items. But I know that some poeple really like to run fully low-magic campaigns. (Which still ends up giving tremendous bonuses to a party with an item-creator in it ...)
The balance question, from a "lesser need for equipment" standpoint, would also go a long way towards arguments for including the monk, as many of those aspects also apply. So, it's likely that including the soulknife will lead to including the (flavor modified, and psionically powered) monk as well.
So, I wanted to run a check, see what you guys think about this.
You can "just" vote, but it'd help if I knew reasons behind your votes as well ... unless, of course, that's already stated.
Immagine the horror of being set upon by a pair of thri-kreen Soulknives, or a Soulknife bodyguard for a defiler, a soulknife assassin lurking in the crowds instantly able to wield a weapon against anyone in a city-state where the citizenry is forceably disarmed and barred from weapons.
But at the same time, they have only that ability and lack some of the vercitility of the arcane, divine and psionic classes. a powered unpowered class means he'd have to think his way out of situations as often as he would fight. Seems well balanced to me...
Monks? Well That group, to me anyways, has a place. Either disciplined mundanes studing the physicality of the Way alongside their psion friends, non casting servents of the Sorcererkings, a unique find deep in the deserts- a monastery hidden away with an oasis. totally self sufficent.
Classwise, they have a few of the same benifits and flaws of soulknives. useful powers and skills, they aren't dependent on equipment or the magics that are frowned upon in Athas. Their speed of attacks makes up for the lesser damage but then again they don't rist their fists shattering with repeated use like an obsidian dagger.
In regards to monks on Athas, I really don't understand why there wouldn't be a tradition of unarmed martial arts. I've dealt with this by creating feats for fighters to take that would allow them some more freedom in unarmed combat. None of my players have made that kind of fighter yet, but I could see them being quite powerful in their own right. Though a psion/monk type class could be very interesting. I'd still like to know what those Nibenese carver/monks are really up to. ;)
Same goes for the monks, thought I'd rather use the psi-monk version that can be found on Nyt's site. I would, of course, lower the monk's number of attacks for flurry of blows and BBA attacks to the same found on the monk's table on PHB 3.5.
I'd maybe link it to a specific school of psionics (or two) - maybe something that is taught in militaristic Urik, or an esoteric discipline that developed in Raam. Make PCs work to include it in their background.
I also feel that monks have a place (mainly because of all the monasteries that clearly exist all over Athas) but agree that there should be a psionic angle to these as well.
Nuff said
.Define: "Tone it down" - flavorwise or mechanicwise.
Mechanicwise. or maybe flavorwise ... that's up to the comments to determine, I suppose.
As far as the monk goes, letting it in would be a big plus on flavor and I think what I did with the psi-monk fits that well, though I know it probably needs to be adjusted some.
That's my 2 cp anyways.
If the link doesn't work thanks to WotC's crappy redirects, then it's just dub dub dub crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=201
Yes, include it for sure. The key is flavour - it needs to fit Athasian society in some way as opposed to just being a kewl thang that people can learn to do.
I'd maybe link it to a specific school of psionics (or two) - maybe something that is taught in militaristic Urik, or an esoteric discipline that developed in Raam. Make PCs work to include it in their background.
I also feel that monks have a place (mainly because of all the monasteries that clearly exist all over Athas) but agree that there should be a psionic angle to these as well.
Pretty much sums up what I think.
My main problem with the SoulKnife? It's too limited to be a base class. If it's included at all, I would make it a PrClass. To be perfectly honest, I don't like the SoulKnife as written, and I doubt any changes flavor-wise would change my opinion.
As for the Psi-Monk - You've got a thumbs up by me.
Xlorep had his dragons inflict some vile damage somehow, and that was appropriate.
A vow of poverty is a very real possibility on Athas, especially with those monk Monestaries in Nibenay. But an actual Vow of Poverty as the feat, with all its granted powers? Doesn't match DS IMO. There is no cosmic universal force in DS that will reward you for being Good and Poor.
A vow of poverty is a very real possibility on Athas, especially with those monk Monestaries in Nibenay. But an actual Vow of Poverty as the feat, with all its granted powers? Doesn't match DS IMO. There is no cosmic universal force in DS that will reward you for being Good and Poor.
Not to mention the fact that the average of the population is already in poverty.
There certainly is. The Spirits of the Land or the Spirit of Athas itself. In that ravaged world, a being who made absolutely no negative impact on the environment would be absolutely adored by those entities.
Except that those are both NEUTRAL entities, not goodly.
I just think the whole of morality on Athas is way too grey to have folks with exalted powers and such running around.
I'm not entirely convinced soulknives would be a good addition to DS. I agree with leatherwood that they have a better fit as a PrC. Although I suppose I could see them a highly trained assassins of the Sorcerer Monarchs. But then again I'm not to impressed with the class itself which probably is coloring my judgement.
I actually liked them better when they were a PrC rather than a full blown class. Admittedly the 3.0 PrC needed to be tweaked and would like to see a 3.5 variant of Soulknives in PrC form.
:fight!:
:fight!:The only PCs who could make this work, admittedly, would be Elan soulknives , or elan monks who never use weapons,
Not sure creating a feat that is only for a small minority of characters is a good idea, heh.
:fight!:
:fight!:The only PCs who could make this work, admittedly, would be Elan soulknives , or elan monks who never use weapons
Why does it need to be limited to just Elan soulknives and monks. Could it be openned to all races and classes? Psions, and psi warriors, and gladiators could also benefit from this as well.
I originally thought it had to be limited due to the Sustenace requirement I had set forth, but later realized you gain sustenance for free if you're a 5th level character and take Vow of Poverty, even if you take it when you get to 5th level or even after.I was trying to keep it all tied in with the completely self-sufficient theme.Also one of the requirements for the Vow of Poverty feat is that you can own no magical equipment, and so the Gladiators and Barbarians won't really work,unless they have natural weapons, and even then they'd have difficulty overcoming the damage reduction of many athasian creatures. Psychic Warrior and Psion work, because of things like Claws of the Beast and Weapon of ENergy, Metaphysical Weapon.etc.
Gladiator has unarmed combat as an ability at higher levels as well. Any class could take improved unarmed attack. Plus some psi feats help out as well.
But anyway. I think your idea has merrit. Pact of Preservation as a neutral type feat would fit with some work.
I don't think the need for less equipment is too overpowering, either. If your campaign has normal equipment values for the PC's levels, then by the time the soulknife starts to get significant powers that simulate equipment, the other PC's should have enough loot for it to not make a big difference. If needing less equipment turns out to be a minor advantage, I think it's more than cancelled out by the fact that the soulknife has cleric BAB even though the equipment that he doesn't need is a melee weapon.
Where does the "roguish" soulknife fit in the campaign landscape, without stepping on the toes of the Bard and the psionic Assassin variant? Do we have to shoehorn the soulknife in as a core class, or could we add it as a prestige class? If it's a core class, it's widespread. If it's a prestige class, its addition to the setting has less effect.
Thinking like a player, as a prestige, I would certainly not waste my time on it.
[EDIT] I've voted no, but i agree to the adding of the Soulknife as a PrC[/EDIT]
My two bits :D
1) Ruleswise, no problem with it.
Personally, I tailor the rewards to the PCs needs, so the mindblade doesn't bother me much. Also, I believe a low-magic campaing will hurt this class too. A Soulknife may not need enhanced weapons, but the lack of magical armor and other items will affect them. At worst, instead of a slightly underpowered class, you get a slightly overpowered one.
2) Flavorwise, I don't like it.
I don't see it as a core class. Too specialized and not entirely athasian. Sure, as Jon put it, lack of metal might make people turn to manifested weapons. But that feels more like a PrC than a core class, IMHO. (By the by, Pneumatik's advice on making the Soulknife a PrC seems sound.)
Now, the reason for this post:
Though I'm voting against the Soulknife, I vote for the Monk. Unlike the former, the latter class has a well documented role in DS, from Nibenay's monks and nuns to Eldaarican peddlers (Wisdom of the Drylanders), to Draxan Keshai enthusiasts and even Raamite mystics. Granted, it may not be as widespread and universal as the Ranger or the Psion, but the Monk has a place.
Please include following alternatives:
"Should the Soulknife be included in DS3.5?"
A. Yes, as a core class.
B. Yes, as a prestige class.
C. No.
Even I could live with the soulknife as a PrC. I agree with Jon on the issue of the soul knife not being wide spreaded and therefor should not be a core class.
Here here on it being a PrC. It was much cooler when it was such in 3.0.
But are these monestaries martial art fighting schools or are they more like european monks of history and if psionic, is it more likely they are devoted to non-combat oriented psionic studies? Except the reference to the Draxians, I have yet to be convinced of the offensive physical combat oriented nature of the monestaries. Gladiator schools and the armies of the city-states cover martial combat training and there are psychic warriors. I can definitely see a prc developed for psionic unarmed combatants, but a core class... not really.
Well, it's true: I may have grown accustomed to associating those Nibenese orders to unarmed combat and to thinking Monks are acceptable for use in DS, while the idea of an Athasian Soulknife is new to me.
There is only one passage in VA giving credence to Nibenese monks and nuns as unarmed combatants:
"In fact, their regimen resembles that of a dedicated psionicist, though the monks gain no powers. (Optionally, you may allow monks to train in unarmed combat.)" (Page 60, VA.)
Other entries (Ivory Triangle) on Exalted Path and Serene Bliss make no mention to them training martial arts that I could find. However, these orders' philosophies seem rather oriental to me, and combat practice is not uncommon among Asian religious groups, both for self-defense and as a means of achieving a meditative state through physical exercises. Exemples being: Shaolin, Wudong Taoists, Japanese Sohei, etc..
Granted, it's a tenuous link.
Well, there are the Draxans, the Eldaarican villagers and peddlers (Wisdom of the Drylanders) and maybe even some of the Villichi. That may not be much, but it's more than the Soulknife has.
I doubt either class would be abused in a group for the simple fact that it would leave the group very weak in other needed areas. Sure, BBEGs would be in for a surprise when the unarmed and unquipped party escapes from his dungeon and confronts him, and he thinks he is going to have an easy time at it, and all of the sudden half the group manifests a soul knife, and the other half launches into a flurry of blows., but when it comes time to heal, or lay down the long range barrages, they are in trouble.
You are likely to face more balance issues and broken groups if everyone in the group is a psion than if they all load up on either of these two classes.
Now, for flavor. I agree that there should be some cool nifty Athasian flavor for either of these classes. And I don't think Monks need to be Psi-converted either. Granted, there could be psi-monks in existance as well as normal monks, but I see no real reason as to why someone, somewhere, wouldn't have dedicated themselves into monk-like training.
I'd say that ruling that there are several types of psionic ability on Athas is no more of a change than the kind of retrofit that DS3 involved in order to include dwarven wizards, the brute class or spellcasting/nonspellcasting halflings.
The monks can be seen as the monastic orders, or a long line of students and masters in a tribal clan of warriors who embraced the deep desert; they abandoned almost all pretense of 'civilization' even weapons. Monks could be a sort of covert assassin/bodyguard of a dragonking or a templar. Remember We really don't need an 'Oriental' theme for the monks, as their seems to be no 'Oriental' mirror in Athas. Think of them more like the Hashashim(sp).
Th Soulknife; well they are more trained than psyker warriors physically and at the expence of psionic powers, instead they learned to channel thier raw energy into a manifest physical form, a blade. They could be parts of schools, or individually trained like most everyone else in Athas is.
Hell while we're at it, let's add the wilder. They train as does the psion, usually one on one. they don't have the versitility of psions but insteadchannel thier powers to icrease the strength of the few powers they've learned. and the Wilders, a perfect class for C's with a less than civil background, farther from the citystates you go it would make sense that wilders would be found instead of psions as they're less disciplined than psions.
Well, there are the Draxans, the Eldaarican villagers and peddlers (Wisdom of the Drylanders) and maybe even some of the Villichi. That may not be much, but it's more than the Soulknife has.
Here, here!
Not much more can be said IMO on either side.
Hell while we're at it, let's add the wilder. They train as does the psion, usually one on one. they don't have the versitility of psions but insteadchannel thier powers to icrease the strength of the few powers they've learned. and the Wilders, a perfect class for C's with a less than civil background, farther from the citystates you go it would make sense that wilders would be found instead of psions as they're less disciplined than psions.
Actually, Wilders are an acceptable equivalent to the Tribal Psionicists (of which my Munchkin players were very fond).
Although not as overpowered, they retain the flavour of the Kit... and still get to be persecuted by the Order!
To address a sub-issue which had developed here, I would like to say I think the monks should definetely be included, and in 3 ways.
Three different monks cry three prestige classes, not necessarily a core class.
How many monks and soulknives are there? A core class says something about how widespread a concept is. Monks wouldn't come by a dime a dosen as gladiators and bards. The same applies to soulknives IMO. Sure, make them specially trained assassins as suggested, but you can't convince me they'd be as numerous as psions or wilders, and still say they won't step on the toes of the bard and the psionic assassin variant. I still vote for a Soulknife prc and Psionic Monk prc.
Bards you can find in every seedy establishment on Athas. Gladiators are as common as athletes in our world. Those are warranted as core classes IMO.
How many monks and soulknives are there? A core class says something about how widespread a concept is. Monks wouldn't come by a dime a dosen as gladiators and bards. The same applies to soulknives IMO. Sure, make them specially trained assassins as suggested, but you can't convince me they'd be as numerous as psions or wilders, and still say they won't step on the toes of the bard and the psionic assassin variant. I still vote for a Soulknife prc and Psionic Monk prc.
If both classes need limits (because they are not widespreaded as the others classes) I suppose "zipping" then in 10 levels PrC wouldn't hurt. I said zipping... not changing into absolutely different things... maybe condensing would be a better word...
Bards you can find in every seedy establishment on Athas. Gladiators are as common as athletes in our world. Those are warranted as core classes IMO.
How many monks and soulknives are there? A core class says something about how widespread a concept is. Monks wouldn't come by a dime a dozen as gladiators and bards.
I'm not so sure. Given that a great many of those Eldaarican villagers and a significant percentage of the Draxans are eligible for the Monk Class, and given the size of those two groups, there might be thousands of Monks in DS. Gladiators and Bards aren't likely to be much more numerous than that, since they make up such a small portion of the Athasian population.
Indeed, the Monk class can't be really widespread since it is limited to some specific peoples. Worse, this class is tied to characters of very specific backgrounds, and doesn't really allow much variation.
But the same applies to the Gladiator. Basically, gladiators are only trained in the city-states. They are found either as slaves in the cities or as escapees elsewhere. Not a lot of room for variation either. As for the Bard, the usual concept of city-dwelling entertainers and intriguers is somewhat limited, but I'm convinced there are some other uses for this class. The DS 3e document hints that Jagged Cliffs loremasters are of the Bard Class, for instance, and I believe Bards are common among feral Halflings, nomadic elves, etc., i.e., where people rely on songs and poems for history and myth.
Oh, well. The Bard and Gladiator classes are fit for mainstream adventurers who come from mainstream places such as the Tablelands, whereas the Monk is not. I don’t mean to be uncompromising about this; I’m only concerned that Draxans, Eldaarican villagers and many others will not be properly addressed only by feats and PrCs and that such characters (both PCs and NPCs) will suffer both ruleswise and flavorwise.
I don’t really see the same problem with the Soulknife, however, which is why I prefer it as a PrC than core class.
L BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Mindblade, throw mindblade
2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 Shape mindblade, +1 mindblade
3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Mindblade enhancement +1
4th +4 +1 +4 +4 Free draw, +2 mindblade
5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Mindblade enhancement +2
6th +6 +2 +5 +5 Bladewind, +3 mindblade
7th +7 +2 +5 +5 Mindblade enhancement +3
8th +8 +2 +6 +6 Multiple throw, +4 mindblade
9th +9 +3 +6 +6 Mindblade enhancement +4
10th +10 +3 +7 +7 Knife to the soul, +5 mindblade
Suggestion for 10 level Soulknife Prestige Class ability progression. Class skills, skill points per level and HD unaltered (though I'm considering d8 hd). One requirement would be having a psionic power point reserve.
Looks good, but have you thought of just using or tweking the 3.0 Soulknife PrC?
Looks good, but have you thought of just using or tweking the 3.0 Soulknife PrC?
Yes, but I'm at my girlfriend's house, and I don't have my books or pdfs here. I actually picked up an extra copy of the Expanded Psionics Handbook so I could make the above draft, since the player who has borrowed the book failed to return it to me on time. Consider the above draft tentative at best. I have planned to check the 3.0 soulknife when I get back home, but wanted to post something since I said I would the other day.
Yes, but I'm at my girlfriend's house, and I don't have my books or pdfs here. I actually picked up an extra copy of the Expanded Psionics Handbook so I could make the above draft, since the player who has borrowed the book failed to return it to me on time. Consider the above draft tentative at best. I have planned to check the 3.0 soulknife when I get back home, but wanted to post something since I said I would the other day.
I hear you Bro. I'd take a look at it if you get the chance.
The 3.0 PrC was much more interesting and cooler than the 3.5 Class IMO.
hear you Bro. I'd take a look at it if you get the chance.
The 3.0 PrC was much more interesting and cooler than the 3.5 Class IMO.
Will do. Like I said, it's at home and I'm not. The above is a compressed prc version of the 3.5 soulknife base class. Use or abuse as you please. Comments are welcome.
Suggestion for 10 level Soulknife Prestige Class ability progression. Class skills, skill points per level and HD unaltered (though I'm considering d8 hd). One requirement would be having a psionic power point reserve.
L BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Mindblade, throw mindblade
2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 Shape mindblade, +1 mindblade
3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Mindblade enhancement +1
4th +4 +1 +4 +4 Free draw, +2 mindblade
5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Mindblade enhancement +2
6th +6 +2 +5 +5 Bladewind, +3 mindblade
7th +7 +2 +5 +5 Mindblade enhancement +3
8th +8 +2 +6 +6 Multiple throw, +4 mindblade
9th +9 +3 +6 +6 Mindblade enhancement +4
10th +10 +3 +7 +7 Knife to the soul, +5 mindblade
I liked it,
but I rather keep its original HD.
The Prc could a minimum BAB as requirement, and also have a "special requirement" such as "being educated by other Soulknife" or "having an encounter with a soulknife".
IMHO, I hated the 3.0 Soulknife. The new 3.5 version shines before my eyes.
IMHO, I hated the 3.0 Soulknife. The new 3.5 version shines before my eyes.
Come on! You have to admit channelling an attack mode into your psi blade was a pretty cool ability.
Come on! You have to admit channelling an attack mode into your psi blade was a pretty cool ability.
Ok... THAT and OLNY THAT ability was cool.. but a D6 HD was shamefull...
Ok... THAT and OLNY THAT ability was cool.. but a D6 HD was shamefull...
Most of the current abilities of the 3.5 Soulknife were taken from the old 3.0 PrC. I think when they made the original 3.0 PrC the creators were trying to have a roguish feel to the Soulknife (Which I liked). The 3.5 core class changed the Soulknife to take on a front line fighter position (Which I didn't like).
I think a 3.5 PrC should be something between the two. I'd like to see the "channelling/embed power" worked into it again and maybe a D8 HD.
The 10 lv class you made is only missing 1 thing. You didn't include how many dice of damage the Psychic Strike does, so there's no way to determine how much damage Knife to the Soul does.
Nice catch, since I omitted the Psychic Strike ability on purpose, so I wouldn't have to cut back on HD, saves or skill points. IDHMBIFOM, but I suppose I can squeeze a Psychic strike +1d8 into level 3 and Psychic strike +2d8 into level 7. It's far less powerful than sneak attack.