Irikos is said to be a defiler warlord before the CWs, so is Myron, so their nature seems the same, reinforced by the idea that both guys got one of Rajaat's uber swords.
Myron becomes a champion during the CWs, and Irikos is said to be have been tasked with eradicating orcs*, and to have succeeded at the task. To have been tasked with the eradication of a race he needs to have made it alive to the CWs, which means he was made into a champion, like Myron was.
As for the material in PAoA trying to correct the discrepancies of the write up in BoA, I don't see it. The reference to Irikos is now more obscure than before, and lets out the part that says he was tasked with the orcs, and just says that he was this favorite of Rajaat that had one of the three swords.
Besides, PAoA says in the Scorcher's description that the three swords were crafted to be given to Rajaat's most favored...champions.
About the fact PAoA mentions that Irikos died before the CWs because of the way the paragraph ends (bhla bhla Irikos died bhla bhla. Next came the Cleansing Wars.), and that it should be considered in priority over BoA because its a DS product, well the Timeline says:
156th King's Age (-2,618) [That's during the CWs]
The warlord Irikos, the left hand of Rajaat, sacks the city of Bodach-but is killed at the conclusion of the battle.
Rajaat = Morgoth
Champions = Sauron
So why not have Irikos be a powerful General for Abalach-Re? Powerful enough to task himself independently of his Champion?
That, or have Abalach-Re be the second champion after Irikos got killed ( sorta like Hamanu replacing Myron ) and then Abalach seduced Rajaat to be a Champion, that's why she's so ineffectual, the job was almost done when she took over.
My take was that Irikos was not a Numbered Champion, but was a champion and warlord who was part of Uyness' crew. His sacred duty was indeed to slay the orcs, but he was not The Champion of orcs, just a champion. I think you can distinguish between a capitalised Champion and the generic noun. But anyway, the thread above goes on for four pages about this. Have fun ;)...
There is some very comprehensive treatment of this topic in this thread.
My take was that Irikos was not a Numbered Champion, but was a champion and warlord who was part of Uyness' crew. His sacred duty was indeed to slay the orcs, but he was not The Champion of orcs, just a champion. I think you can distinguish between a capitalised Champion and the generic noun. But anyway, the thread above goes on for four pages about this. Have fun ;)...
Okay, appreantly I can't stay away from this topic
Damn me for being weak!!!I was going to point that out as well about the differance in the term champion vs Champion with a capital C. He may have been imbued with immortality but Irikos was not a champion in the same capacity as the 15 Champions of Rajaat.
It could be possible that he was originally tasked with aiding Uyness with the orcs, but once she had them pretty much licked was appointed by Rajaat to other tasks.
edit: in power levels that is...
Well Irikos doesn't need to be a Champion to be incredably powerful, look at Kalak, maybe Irikos = Kalak.
edit: in power levels that is...
Thats only if you subscribe to the RaFoaDK theory of that Kalak wasn't a Champion though. Thats a whole other topic in itself.
I do beleive however that Irikos was powerful, just not on the same level of the other Champions. I think he was just as powerful, but just in a different way. Thats just IMO though.
There is some very comprehensive treatment of this topic in this thread.
My take was that Irikos was not a Numbered Champion, but was a champion and warlord who was part of Uyness' crew. His sacred duty was indeed to slay the orcs, but he was not The Champion of orcs, just a champion. I think you can distinguish between a capitalised Champion and the generic noun. But anyway, the thread above goes on for four pages about this. Have fun ;)...
Uh, the whole capital C and lower case c is a weak argument IMO. It could have been an edit mistake, or something else, and not neccessarily done on purpose. Not to mention that PAoA refers to "Champions" as "champions" like Penn pointed out. Sorry, not a good argument, i.e. quit using it people! :P
Despite all of this, does it make sense to you that Rajaat would create three artifact swords, give two to his "Champions" and then one to a "champion" under another "Champion". Why not just give it to Ulyness?
Like I said, ludricous.
Of the 9 champions about which we know the time they took to succeed at their task, 5 of them took more than 1,200 years. That includes lizard man, wemics, gnomes (you heard right!), trolls and ogres.
Tasking 2 champions to the same task would not have helped much with most of the above.
Thats only if you subscribe to the RaFoaDK theory of that Kalak wasn't a Champion though. Thats a whole other topic in itself.
I do beleive however that Irikos was powerful, just not on the same level of the other Champions. I think he was just as powerful, but just in a different way. Thats just IMO though.
I subscribe to the theory that the Sorcer-Monarchs are god-like in their power, and no mere-mortal can kill one. I also think that Rajaat changed the fundimental physical nature of the Champions too, their Dragon transformations are different than what Kalak and PC dragons have to go through.
I think that Sorcer-Monarchs can avatar themselves too, i give them every power normally attibuted to lesser gods, in the sense that Athas is their prime plane on influence. So in order to effect a Sorcer-Monarch, you need another sorcer-monarch to help you.
I have tried to apply the old Primal Order system to the Champions, but I don't like that much book keeping. (Anyone familiar with that? Pre-magic WotC product)
Is that so hard to accept as how things are?
Myron and Irikos were proto-champions. Defiler warlords, made immortal. When the CWs were to full-on erupt, the champions-to-be would be gathered and undergo the ceremony at the pristene tower that would re-make them (in my opinion, through life-shaping). Myron, who survived the jihad, underwent this further transformation, making him a champion on top of being an immortal defiler warlord. Irikos, had he survived, would have as well. But he didn't. Except, HAD HE, he would have, and taken on the role of killing orcs.
All you have to do is ignore the bit about him having succeeded in killing orcs, and just go with the idea that he was focused entirely (at the time) upon the jihad.
Some races needed more than one champion to eradicate them.
Why?
Maybe some races had uber-powerful leaders (advanced being druids, powerful multi-classed preservers) or venerated spiritual leaders who would return in times of crisis (advanced elemental beings?) which made that particular race a tough nut to crack. Maybe in those cases two champions were assigned. One to eradicate the race, the other to eradicate the races protectors, as the two tasks combined were too much for one champion, despite thier powers.
Just a thought.
Like it's been said . . . Irikos got a sword. he's not some schmuck. Simple solution. He had a personal hatred for orcs or something. The favorites of Rajaat knew the CWs were coming (meaning Irikos, Myron, and maybe some others if they were around) . . . Irikos had dibs on taking out the orcs. He, like Myron, WAS TO HAVE BEEN MADE A CHAMPION. But then he got himself killed. End of story.
At least according to Lynne Abbey, Myron was a champion and Raajat killed him for not doing his job.
Is that so hard to accept as how things are?
Myron and Irikos were proto-champions. Defiler warlords, made immortal. When the CWs were to full-on erupt, the champions-to-be would be gathered and undergo the ceremony at the pristene tower that would re-make them (in my opinion, through life-shaping). Myron, who survived the jihad, underwent this further transformation, making him a champion on top of being an immortal defiler warlord. Irikos, had he survived, would have as well. But he didn't. Except, HAD HE, he would have, and taken on the role of killing orcs.
I would say Defiler warlords were common. But I would also say that the Cleansing wars were not a single event in history, but the name is given to an epoch of strife. The Cleansing Wars were 1000 years! Forgotten to all but the Socerer-Monarchs themselves, there were many wars and each champion operated seperately as an independent exterminator. There were many nations of humans, and many nations of the demi-humans.
We know that the bad guys won, but that isn't to say there were vastly powerful good guys in the wars as well. Like Dwarven Kings with Elemental Lords backing them, or Elven Chieftans that are proto-Avangions. Maybe Wemics got bigger and bigger as they aged and the really old ones were what the Nightmare Beast was made to take on. I'm sure for centuries, Gnomes were so stealthy and secretive, they were like vicious, assassin, ninja gypsies and would hire themselves out. Orcs could have been vast breeders and the armies that fought them needed to be incredibly destructive on a wide scale to fight them all. But maybe Orc Philosopher-Kings were reknown for their genius. Maybe the Tari were fast, and had powerful Psionic Masters.
I have been thinking of making a Cleansing Wars wargame for some time, I have been thinking of how I'm going to make each race have a 'hook' that would make the miniature play for them worthwhile, and then having Human armies be generic, but have human heroes that can nullify or counter each of the demi-human's gifts. So in campains, armies can be dwarven, orcish, anti-elf human, goblin with Troll assassins, anti-orc human, etc. I am not intedning it to be based on D&D rules though, different age, different rules...
All you have to do is ignore the bit about him having succeeded in killing orcs, and just go with the idea that he was focused entirely (at the time) upon the jihad.
Maybe Uyness and Irikos were lovers, and were the twin champions. When Irikos died, Uyness changed her name and never recovered, which is why she runs Raam poorly.
Despite all of this, does it make sense to you that Rajaat would create three artifact swords, give two to his "Champions" and then one to a "champion" under another "Champion". Why not just give it to Ulyness?
Like I said, ludricous.
Maybe its due to that Rajaat didn't fully trust Ulyness (rightfully so proven by her history) as much as he did Irikos. He was after all "the left hand". The Warbringer also had more than just Champions under his direct influance (i.e. halflings,Qwith, etc...).
If you go along with the theory of that Irikos was a defiler/fighter Rajaat could have seen the value of having a mighty warrior vs. a straight up psion/wizard to be used as a wild card. Out of all three blades the Silencer would after all be most effective in a fighters hands more so than a wizards. I'm sure Rajaat could see that some diversity amongst his most trusted minions would best serve his needs.
This is all in my point of view though. Both of our views are just speculative with no solid basis behind either of them. Neither of us have any special knowledge or insight as to Rajaats' true motivations.
Plus she's a dirty tramp :P
True. She is a no good hizzoe
Like it's been said . . . Irikos got a sword. he's not some schmuck. Simple solution. He had a personal hatred for orcs or something. The favorites of Rajaat knew the CWs were coming (meaning Irikos, Myron, and maybe some others if they were around) . . . Irikos had dibs on taking out the orcs. He, like Myron, WAS TO HAVE BEEN MADE A CHAMPION. But then he got himself killed. End of story.
Except he got killed during the CWs, how does that work?
Why wasn't he made champion before they started?
Maybe its due to that Rajaat didn't fully trust Ulyness (rightfully so proven by her history) as much as he did Irikos.
Agreed, but why then not make him champion?
Especially since he got a sword.
I just have trouble accepting that someone that wasn't a champion, left hand or not, gets one of the three most powerful artifact swords ever created on the face of the planet.
It just doesn't add up.
I don't mind the helping our Ulyness with the orcs theory either, but he still needs champion status IMO, and it's going to be very hard to convince me otherwise.
If you go along with the theory of that Irikos was a defiler/fighter Rajaat could have seen the value of having a mighty warrior vs. a straight up psion/wizard to be used as a wild card. Out of all three blades the Silencer would after all be most effective in a fighters hands more so than a wizards. I'm sure Rajaat could see that some diversity amongst his most trusted minions would best serve his needs.
Both Borys and Hammanu were fighter/defilers too, and they both got swords, though Hamman had to kill Myron to get his, and were both champions.
Why break the pattern and not make Irikos one as well since he was the third fighter/defiler of the group.
Again, doesn't add up.
Both Borys and Hammanu were fighter/defilers too, and they both got swords, though Hamman had to kill Myron to get his, and were both champions.
Why break the pattern and not make Irikos one as well since he was the third fighter/defiler of the group.
Again, doesn't add up.
The thing is I don't believe that Borys and Hammanu were fighters though. They were straight up defiler/psions. At least thats if you go by their 2e stats. I think it was more that they were self stylized warrior like Champions (i.e. the new war mage class from the complete arcane?) . If they were fighters they would never have made the requirements to become dragons by diluting themselves with so much multiclassing.
Further evidence that Irikos was most likely not a psion is that the Silencer itself bestows the power of Tower of Iron Will. Thats an odd and redundant ability to give a weapon that an alleged psion wielder can already manifest IMO.
I feel that Rajaat wouldn't underestimate the uses having a diverse and varied pool of abilities to call upon. Look at an adventuring party. How effective is a party that consists solely of one class? Sure, a group of wizards can certainly kick some major a$$, but eventually they are going to come across an obstacle or situation that only sheer brute strength can over come.
I don't understand your reasoning as to why you think Rajaat would entrust his artifact weapons to Champions only?
The thing is I don't believe that Borys and Hammanu were fighters though. They were straight up defiler/psions. At least thats if you go by their 2e stats.
let's just set aside the 2e rules basis for a moment: What if Borys and Hammanu wern't defiler/psions, but rather defiler/psychic warriors? They are the most militant of the champions, and I think it makes a fair amount of sense ...
let's just set aside the 2e rules basis for a moment: What if Borys and Hammanu wern't defiler/psions, but rather defiler/psychic warriors? They are the most militant of the champions, and I think it makes a fair amount of sense ...
Definately agreed there.
The thing is I don't believe that Borys and Hammanu were fighters though. They were straight up defiler/psions. At least thats if you go by their 2e stats. I think it was more that they were self stylized warrior like Champions (i.e. the new war mage class from the complete arcane?) . If they were fighters they would never have made the requirements to become dragons by diluting themselves with so much multiclassing.
How bout defiler/psychic warriors then? That makes more sense and is what I meant originally anyways. Thanks flip for sparking some neurons.
Further evidence that Irikos was most likely not a psion is that the Silencer itself bestows the power of Tower of Iron Will. Thats an odd and redundant ability to give a weapon that an alleged psion wielder can already manifest IMO.
Pretty easy to explain in the current rules, he simply didn't take that power or couldn't because he is a psychic warrior (can't remember if they can or not, no books with me).
I feel that Rajaat wouldn't underestimate the uses having a diverse and varied pool of abilities to call upon. Look at an adventuring party. How effective is a party that consists solely of one class? Sure, a group of wizards can certainly kick some major a$$, but eventually they are going to come across an obstacle or situation that only sheer brute strength can over come.
That's why not all the champions are defiler/psions, some are defiler/psychic warriors, while others may have yet a third class in the mix, Kalak being a good example of that since he isn't a powerful as the other champions, if you want to go that route.
I don't understand your reasoning as to why you think Rajaat would entrust his artifact weapons to Champions only?
I don't understand why you can't see that it's ludricous to give something on a magnituded of that power to anyone but a champion.
Definately agreed there.
Hence why I mentioned the War Mage. Same effect.
I'm not trying to invalidate that Borys and Hummanu were militant.
Pretty easy to explain in the current rules, he simply didn't take that power or couldn't because he is a psychic warrior.
Thats a rather weak arguement. Especially for a concept made prior to the creation of the psychic warrior.
I don't understand why you can't see that it's ludricous to give something on a magnituded of that power to anyone but a champion.
I don't see where being a Champion necessarily has to be a requirement in order to wield one of Rajaats swords. I'm sure there were more than just psions/defilers/psychic warriors/etc... that were loyal to Rajaat and proved their worth to him beyond the Champions.
Thats a rather weak arguement. Especially for a concept made prior to the creation of the psychic warrior.
Except most of the 2e stuff we can throw out the window now, we're in a whole new set of rules now.
If we were still in 2e it would be a different story.
I don't see where being a Champion necessarily has to be a requirement in order to wield one of Rajaats swords. I'm sure there were more than just psions/defilers/psychic warriors/etc... that were loyal to Rajaat and proved their worth to him beyond the Champions.
Sorry, but if I was Rajaat I certainly wouldn't give one of the three most powerful artifact swords I have ever created to just anyone, give me a break.
Sorry, but if I was Rajaat I certainly wouldn't give one of the three most powerful artifact swords I have ever created to just anyone, give me a break.
Well, I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but your not Rajaat. :P
You really haven't given much of a reason as to why he would only entrust his swords to Champions other than the "Because I said so" stance you've been taking.
Irikos would have been like Myron. Had he (Irikos) survived the jihad, he too would have been made a champion.
Problems with this: I'm assuming from memory that Irikos is said to have died (in the official timeline) before the cleansing wars ended. If he did, then just go with what I said. If he is said to have died after the CW started . . .
Then Irikos, like Myron, was made into a champion. Assigned orcs to kill. Along the way, he ran into Bodach, saw it for a huge preserver hold-out, took time off his crusade to sack it and died in the process. Rajaat then created Abalache-Re to finish the orcs up.
As for the requirements of being psions and all that . . . remember that Hamanu had not an inkling of psionic or magic power, and that Rajaat pretty much just gave it all to him. Meaning it was possible that he could have simply granted the powers to a number of hi champions. Say Borys was a spiffy magic user, but a psychic warrior instead of a psion? Well Rajaat simply bestowed enough levels of psion on him. Hamanu had a lot of levels in fighter? Well Rajaat simply bestowed him all the needed levels of psion and defiler. Maybe after that, Hamanu started taking psychic warrior. I admit I have a bias against allowing straight-up defiler/psychic warriors to become dragons, just so that's clear.
I think a single sentence of mine is screwing things up, but I can't tell.
There are a myriad of sources that contradict each other. It mostly stems from the actual artifact entries vs the official time line.
You really haven't given much of a reason as to why he would only entrust his swords to Champions other than the "Because I said so" stance you've been taking.
More like it doesn't make sense that he would stand, not because I said so.
Current military workings, not everyone is trained with every gun, some know how to fire m-16s while other know how to fire off missile launchers and such, or fly choppers, etc., it doesn't make sense to me that some schmo, whether he is the left hand or not, would get one of the most powerful artifacts in the world, instead he would get one of the lesser ones or an epic item that was close. Hence he has to be a champion.
I'm not trying to throw Kalak out, or say he was the champion of the orcs or anything like that, that is for my campaign and anyone else that wants to use what I wrote before. I'm just trying to establish that he was indeed a champion, once we establish that (which has good grounds backing it up, while there isn't much backing up that he wasn't), then we can move on to defining what race he went after, etc.
I'm not budging on this, sorry, heh.
I think a single sentence of mine is screwing things up, but I can't tell. Myron was a defiler warlord during the jihad. The jihad "ended" and the CW started. As the CW started, the champions were created. Myron was made a champion.
Irikos would have been like Myron. Had he (Irikos) survived the jihad, he too would have been made a champion.
Problems with this: I'm assuming from memory that Irikos is said to have died (in the official timeline) before the cleansing wars ended. If he did, then just go with what I said. If he is said to have died after the CW started . . .
Let me help you out, heh.
144th King's Age (-3,542)
-Priest's Contemplation
Rajaat sends all but a few of his students away. Using the power of the Pristine Tower and the mysterious Dark Lens Rajaat creates his Champions. Each Champion is ordered to eliminate one specific race from the face of Athas in an effort to bring about the return of the Blue Age. The Cleansing Wars begin.
160th King's Age (-2,310)
-Guthay's Defiance
Kalak, 2nd Champion of Rajaat kills the last of the ogres of Athas.
-Ral's Reverence
Gallard (later known as Nibenay), 6th Champion of Rajaat massacres the last of Athas's gnomes.
Keltis, Lizard Man Executioner arrives at Saragar despite the powers of the Mind Lords. The Mind Lord's cleverness hides the entire population of lizard men from the Champion, and he soon leaves the Last Sea.
-Desert's Reverence
The First Sorcerer orders the defiler Qwith to explore the workings of the Inner Planes as a possible means of power.
-Wind's Fury
The great cities of Ebe, Waverly, and Arala are swallowed by the expanding Silt Sea, though later it recedes from Waverly. The nearby city of Bodach is spared, but becomes surrounded by silt.
-Mountain's Vengeance
The warlord Irikos, the left hand of Rajaat, sacks the city of Bodach-but is killed at the conclusion of the battle. His sword (a creation of Rajaat's), the Silencer, is lost for 2,000 years.
He's was alive for a little over a 1,000 years of the CWs, heh.
Then Irikos, like Myron, was made into a champion. Assigned orcs to kill. Along the way, he ran into Bodach, saw it for a huge preserver hold-out, took time off his crusade to sack it and died in the process. Rajaat then created Abalache-Re to finish the orcs up.
That I can deal with.
I admit I have a bias against allowing straight-up defiler/psychic warriors to become dragons, just so that's clear.
I like it.
/me shrugs
Flavor gooood.
Just takes a bit longer for a defiler/psychic warrior to get where he needs to get to be a Dragon.
I'm just trying to establish that he was indeed a champion, once we establish that (which has good grounds backing it up, while there isn't much backing up that he wasn't), then we can move on to defining what race he went after, etc.
I'm not budging on this, sorry, heh.
There really isn't any overwhelming evidence supporting that Irikos was a Champion other than a lousy one line write up in a non DS product.
Should we believe that Rajaat learned the basics of magic from some outer planar being because it was stated in a Planescape book?
Then Irikos, like Myron, was made into a champion. Assigned orcs to kill. Along the way, he ran into Bodach, saw it for a huge preserver hold-out, took time off his crusade to sack it and died in the process. Rajaat then created Abalache-Re to finish the orcs up.
The problem with this is that Abalache-Re slayed the last orc over 300 yrs prior to him buying it in Bodach.
There really isn't any overwhelming evidence supporting that Irikos was a Champion other than a lousy one line write up in a non DS product.
Sure there is, two generals got two major artifact weapons, the other went to a nobody with a title.
Doesn't seem right to me.
Should we believe that Rajaat learned the basics of magic from some outer planar being because it was stated in a Planescape book?
If it's backed up in another book and the timeline, sure, but it isn't, so sorry for your luck there. ;)
More like it doesn't make sense that he would stand, not because I said so.
Current military workings, not everyone is trained with every gun, some know how to fire m-16s while other know how to fire off missile launchers and such, or fly choppers, etc., it doesn't make sense to me that some schmo, whether he is the left hand or not, would get one of the most powerful artifacts in the world, instead he would get one of the lesser ones or an epic item that was close. Hence he has to be a champion.
Unless there was something special about him. Maybe instead of a Navy Admiral he was a Navy SEAL. If it was militarilly or politically expedient, I could see it happening.
Unless there was something special about him. Maybe instead of a Navy Admiral he was a Navy SEAL. If it was militarilly or politically expedient, I could see it happening.
You still don't give a navy seal a freaking nuke is my point.
Sure there is, two generals got two major artifact weapons, the other went to a nobody with a title.
Doesn't seem right to me.
By not having the title "Champion" automatically makes a being a nobody by default? Thats not a very strong arguement.
If it's backed up in another book and the timeline, sure, but it isn't, so sorry for your luck there
There's nothing in the time line that states that Irikos was a Champion.
You still don't give a navy seal a freaking nuke is my point.
No, but you do provide him with the necessary tools to get the job done.
Admit it, the idea that kalak wasn't a champion is a good one. Irikos coulda been assigned ogres, and everything works out.
I also gotta admit I like the idea of Pennarin the champion, who took the fall when they attacked rajaat and was obliterated, giving the others enough time to take the first sorcerer down.
Back to irikos, another solution is smudging the timeline a little, having him die before the orcs are killed, and being replaced by abalache-re. I mean the timeline is kinda wonky to begin with . . . the silt sea appears way too soon (in city by the silt sea in the flavor text before dregoth gets assassinated the city still has water from the sunrise sea on its shores.). So just revise the timeline a bit.
Sp the jihad kinda ends as the CWs begin. Let's say Myron is tapped to become a champion. Irikos is given a slightly different job. He too is given the powers of a champion, but instead of being assigned a race to kill, it's his job to take care of upstart preservers. I kinda hate to admit it, but it's the easiest solution. He had no race to kill (though maybe he helped Abalache-Re a bit, just cuz he hated orcs or something), and was just supposed to make sure to keep the preservers down. He's technically a champion, with all the power that goes with that, but remained a trump card of sorts whose purpose was to attack preservers.
Something else that came to mind . . . the obsidian lands, i mean the dead lands . . . aren't there like undead orcs and other races down there? Yet the inner planes muff didn't happen until after these races were supposedly obliterated?
Where does the polemic come from?
1) Irikos:
Book of Artifacts: Irikos is tasked the eradication of orcs. Suggests championhood. Died after finishing off the orcs. Suggests death during the CWs.
Was given an important sword.
Psionic Artifacts of Athas: The Scorcher entry mentions the three swords were given to Rajaat's Champions. Suggests Irikos was a Champion at one time. A phrase in there also suggests Irikos died before the start of the CWs.
He was given an important sword. Myron too and he became a Champion after the start of the CWs. Suggests Irikos was made into a Champion too after the start of the CWs.
Timeline: Irikos died 300 years after Abalach-Re finished off the orcs. Suggests he died after the start of the CWs. Also suggests an error has been made in the Book of Artifacts entry.
Of the many possible errors there could be in the text, the simplest correction to make is changing the word "orc".
2) Kalak:
City-State of Tyr: The Kalak entry in it is based off of descriptions from the Verdant Passage. The entry has him has a human defiler/psionicist. No mention of dragonhood.
Verdant Passage: Kalak is the only SK that doesn't follow the mold of the other SKs: he is not shrouded in illusion, he does not look like a god, he trully appears to be an old man.
Rise and Fall of a Dragon King: Hamanu says Kalak was never in the Pristine Tower: he was never made into a Champion. His title of Champion is purely a title. This is the only case of a Champion-by-title mentionned in RaFoaDK, or elsewhere for that matter. Kalak was a human who lived a long time and who tried to become a full dragon in one step. He wasn't a dragon to begin with.
Dragon Kings: A paragraph in there has a line mentionning every SK is at least a 21st-level dragon.
3) Dregoth:
City by the Silt Sea: Dregoth is mentionned to have rendered one of his trusted childhood friend immortal.
Rise and Fall of a Dragon King: Hamanu says Dregoth already was immortal and fighting giants on his own before Rajaat made his Champions. Suggests some people were powerful enough to invent an immortality process without the help of Rajaat.
Irikos Conclusions: Died during the CWs and his probably a Champion. The mention of his being tasked with a race is not contradicted, but him being assigned the orcs is in doubt. Suggests an error in the publication.
Kalak Conclusion: Many elements point to someone who has not been enchanted into a creature known as a Champion of Rajaat but received the name as a title, and also point to him as being human up to the point he attempted transformation in the Golden Tower. One reference against that: the line in Dragon Kings.
By not having the title "Champion" automatically makes a being a nobody by default? Thats not a very strong arguement.
Nope, just means he shouldn't get one of the artifact swords.
It's a very strong argument, you just have nothing to help your side of the argument.
Sorry, but it makes perfect sense to me that he is more than what is said of him. If he was given a lesser artifact or just an epic sword then I wouldn't be arguing this at all.
I guess you just hand artifacts out like candy in your campaign and allow anyone under the sun to have one. Not me...
There's nothing in the time line that states that Irikos was a Champion.
You evidently missed my sarcasm, heh.
No, but you do provide him with the necessary tools to get the job done.
Giving a non-general an artifact sword is ludricous though, give him a lesser artifact or an epic weapon that still helps get the job done and I wouldn't be arguing this with you.
However they didn't, they gave him one of the three most powerful swords in the world, and I'm sorry, but a navy seal shouldn't be running around with that sort of thing, a sub going to start some crap on the enemies homeland should though.
Ok, my bad with the timeline miff. Simple solutions still exist though, in naming Irikos another race to off. He managed to do it and went on to attack more preservers.
I'm fine with that too.
Admit it, the idea that kalak wasn't a champion is a good one. Irikos coulda been assigned ogres, and everything works out.
Especially when some of that is an idea I have about Irikos, Kalak and the ogres that I built off of Abbey's idea.
I also gotta admit I like the idea of Pennarin the champion, who took the fall when they attacked rajaat and was obliterated, giving the others enough time to take the first sorcerer down.
And Daskinor for creating the hollow and going insane in the process which is a cool idea as well.
Back to irikos, another solution is smudging the timeline a little, having him die before the orcs are killed, and being replaced by abalache-re.
I'm ok with that too, I refuse to believe that he isn't a champion though.
Just wish I could beat it through some of the DS purists out there that are more of a purist than I am, lol. Ah well.
Guess the Kalak fanboys are scared that since I work somewhat on the official rules that I am somehow going to persuade the entire athas.org staff in following my idea that I merely built off of an earlier idea, even though there is holes in that as well, heh. Not going to happen people, drop the paranoia.
I mean the timeline is kinda wonky to begin with . . . the silt sea appears way too soon (in city by the silt sea in the flavor text before dregoth gets assassinated the city still has water from the sunrise sea on its shores.). So just revise the timeline a bit.
Yeah, it does need a little touchup here and there.
Irikos is given a slightly different job. He too is given the powers of a champion, but instead of being assigned a race to kill, it's his job to take care of upstart preservers. I kinda hate to admit it, but it's the easiest solution. He had no race to kill (though maybe he helped Abalache-Re a bit, just cuz he hated orcs or something), and was just supposed to make sure to keep the preservers down. He's technically a champion, with all the power that goes with that, but remained a trump card of sorts whose purpose was to attack preservers.
I don't have issue with this either. Champion blah, Preserver purifier, heh.
As long as he is a champion it's all good in my book, what I did on my website is for my campaign, but I would like to see Irikos become a champion officially.
Something else that came to mind . . . the obsidian lands, i mean the dead lands . . . aren't there like undead orcs and other races down there? Yet the inner planes muff didn't happen until after these races were supposedly obliterated?
No orcs, lots of gnomes, fairies and other races though. I think even an undead troll, maybe that was something else.
All kinds of neat stuff in SotDL.
What I don't understand is why people feel the need to tie everything back to a Champion. Why does every heavy hitter have to come from Champion stock in order to make any kind of impact or be considered important on Athas outside of Rajaat? There must have been other major players other than the Warbringer and his chosen 15.
I don't, but when one of those heavy hitters has one of the three most powerful weapons on Athas, guess what, he better be a champion or I'm going to have words.
Besides, Troy has already stated that there could be more champions, just because he didn't get around to making more doesn't mean there wasn't suppose to be more. He got cut off after Pentad was done and wasn't allowed to touch the setting anymore.
So get off the 15 high horse, purist act, heh. Even I think there should be more than 15, just not an insane amount.
Nope, just means he shouldn't get one of the artifact swords.
It's a very strong argument, you just have nothing to help your side of the argument.
I beg to differ. I've brought up very good points. Your tunnel vision prevents you from seeing anyone elses' points but your own.
I guess you just hand artifacts out like candy in your campaign and allow anyone under the sun to have one. Not me..
Besides making you come off as arrogant how does this statement help your arguement again?
Besides making you come off as arrogant how does this statement help your arguement again?
I'm only being arrogant because I know what I'm talking about. It's not like I haven't spent a lot of time reading up on everything that had to do with Irikos before writing up an article on him, nope, just got a hair up my ass one day and just started making crap up, yep that's me.
;)
As for how it helps my argument? Simple, you seem to think that handing one of the most powerful artifact swords to a mere Lt. is ok, while I don't and think they should all be reserved for the Generals.
Not to mention that you keep ignoring the fact that PAoA mentions straight out, that all three swords were given to champions, with a lower case c, the same writeup of the word that was used earlier to describe Myron and Borys. PAoA being one of the books you hold sacred over BoA.
You can't counter that and you know it.
What I like even better is when such posts try to explain something, but no one reads them! Hilarious, hisn't it!
Ahh. I just love writting long posts. Mmmm. So good.
What I like even better is when such posts try to explain something, but no one reads them! Hilarious, hisn't it!
I read it, of course I'm not the one that needs to change their mind, heh.
Good post btw.
So get off the 15 high horse, purist act, heh. Even I think there should be more than 15, just not an insane amount.
Play nice now. It helps make a more credible argument. Just because you don’t see eye to eye with someone doesn’t give you the right to take such a tone with a person.
Play nice now. It helps make a more credible argument. Just because you don’t see eye to eye with someone doesn’t give you the right to take such a tone with a person.
It's an aggressive tone sure.
It shouldn't be an insulting tone though.
If it is, then I apologize.
I agree that a psychic warrior/defiler could become a dragon. If one of the stipulations for dragonhood is being able to manifest 9th level powers
Actually, it's only going to be 6th level powers, from what I'm seeing (it's not complete yet though) that way psychic warriors can get into it.
Besides, Dragons are all about using psionics to boost their magical power, not the other way around, so one requirement should be lower than the other.
If one of the stipulations for dragonhood is being able to manifest 9th level powers, [...]
We don't know what the requirements are. The rules don't yet exist.
And referencing the 2E rules is to no avail: the 3E dragon rules will not be a mirror of the 2E rules. With XlorepDarkHelm in the Epic bureau you can be sure of this.
In the past, as soon as people have started saying other people's arguments were wrong, but without quoting the specific arguments!!, the discussion has always degenerated in ugliness.
Remember the discussions with Xlorep? He typed long, very long posts, very concise, yet as soon as a kink appeared in the discussions it turned into arguments that lacked specificity, and degenerated into fencing matchs that were no longer about any specific argument!
Beware. Start quoting the other's specific arguments now, or repost you own to restart the discussion.
Agreed. I was astounded to see a 30+ level set of transformational prestige classes when Xlorep was kind enough to send it to me. Way different than the 10 lv class from DK. Interesting possibilities,though. Full Advanced dragon magic 4 levels in, at the expense of damage reduction and advanced physical capabilities......
That's been changed too so you know.
What I saw recently was way simpler, and alot better once I got past the initial "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I so loved the first, complex as hell, version!"
I'm not being sarcastic either, I really did love the 1st, way more complex, version.
Not to mention that you keep ignoring the fact that PAoA mentions straight out, that all three swords were given to champions, with a lower case c, the same writeup of the word that was used earlier to describe Myron and Borys. PAoA being one of the books you hold sacred over BoA.
You can't counter that and you know it.
Myron and Borys have been well docuement as champions in other sources. Irikos hasn't. Plus I don't subscribe that Irikos was a mere Lt. I just think he served a different purpose than the Champions. I feel he worked outside of them on other tasks set by Rajaat himself. Hunting down powerful preservers, psions, rogue defilers, etc... Like Cap'N Nick pointed out.
It's an aggressive tone sure.
It shouldn't be an insulting tone though.
If it is, then I apologize.
I may have taken things out of context.
I apologize as well if I've come off in anyway abrasive.
Myron and Borys have been well docuement as champions in other sources. Irikos hasn't.
Ah, so just because they were documented first and Irikos came out later automatically denies him championhood? Gotcha.
I totally disagree with that way of thinking.
Sometimes the story has to be re-written and added to in order for it to be considered complete.
Using your logic, do you then not consider Oronis and Daskinor champions then since they were added later too and weren't as well documented as the others were?
Plus I don't subscribe that Irikos was a mere Lt. I just think he served a different purpose than the Champions. I feel he worked outside of them on other tasks set by Rajaat himself. Hunting down powerful preservers, psions, rogue defilers, etc... Like Cap'N Nick pointed out.
What's wrong with him being a champion of the Preservers? Tasked with finishing out the preserver jihad while the rest of the champions deal with the races?
Where can I acquire the new one? I'd hate to bug Xlorep again (strangers asking for stuff and all that) I run a really big (8+ players) epic level campaign and would jump at the chance to playtest it and provide feedback, if it's not a breach of courtesy to do so.
I'd wait till it's finished first and then maybe they will let you have it for preliminary playtesting.
I would just email him and see what he thinks.
He'll probably have to take it up with the epic bureau though to get an ok or whatever.
Sysane: The impression I got from the get go with the Champions was that their creation process made them fixated on a race to kill. i.e. Rajaat didn't make Champions that had no Cleansing purpose.
People waged wars that were not related to Cleansing, but those were before the CWs, and they were not Champions (at least not yet).
What I mean is that Rajaat clearly didn't make a Champion of Preservers.
Internal review only TerminusVortexa. NytCrawlr is in a Bureau.
Internal review yes, but playtesting is usually put into the community's hands.
What I mean is that Rajaat clearly didn't make a Champion of Preservers.
I don't see why Irikos couldn't be that, I mean they were a threat after all.
I kinda like the idea actually. Probably won't use it in my campaign, I've got other plans, but I don't mind playing devil's advocate, mwuahahahha.
I think a non-spellcasting, non-champion slayer of preservers would be a sound tactical decision. The preservers would probably be expecting a magical or even psionic assault, and if Irikos was neither Wizard nor Psion, he would use much different and possibly more effective ways to slay his prey. Getting right in their faces and hacking away, disrupting spells and such.........
Except he's already a defiler.
Though he probably has more spells that help with his combat than anything else.
I'm thinking he is another defiler/psychic warrior at this point.
What I mean is that Rajaat clearly didn't make a Champion of Preservers.
I'm not saying that he was a Champion of Preserves per se, but more of an enforcer. A special agent who answered only to Rajaat.
nytCrawlr , I tried to use your link to Lynn Abbey's notes on RaFoaDK but the link won't work due to Wizards' sloppy redirecting. Could you please tell me how to access it on your site? Also, do you know if Prism Pentad is available in e-book form, and if so , where?
Well, it's not WotC, it's the pdf, for some reason it breaks the pdf plugin in most browsers which enable it to open.
I can send it to your email if you want though.
How about a defiling warmage/war mind?
I'm behind on my PrCs, where are those from?
War Mage is from Complete Arcane (Pg 12) and the Miniatures Handbook(Pg 14), War Mind is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (Pg 155). Also, War Mage is a base class, not a PrC. WarMage is a spontaneous arcane caster with the ability to wear armor, and War Mind is like a condensed Psychic Warrior with a brutal ability called Sweeping Strike, hitting two enemies with every melee attack.
Ok, I've got Complete Arcane with me, will have to look that up and check out War Mind once I get home.
I'm a little hesistant on allowing spontaneous arcane casting types into Athas though.
I can see why, but the War Mind still has to learn his spells, although they're drilled into him. But since it's a modified type of wizard, they would still be externally powered, not from the soul like a sorceror.
Yeah, pretty cool class, not bad at all on the spontaneous either.
Definately doable.
Definately restricted to preserver and defiler still.
I don't see why Irikos couldn't be that [a Champion of Preservers], I mean they were a threat after all.
Pffff. That's why Rajaat started the Preserver Jihad 700 years before starting the Cleansing Wars: to soften up the magical resistance.
It worked. Once it was done he started the CWs. No need of a Champion of Preservers by then.
Besides, Rajaat did have "Champions of Preservers" of a sort: defiler warlords, the predecessors of the Champions in the Preserver Jihad. Myron and Irikos were amongst them. Those guys had 700 years to wage a "Cleansing Wars Against Preservers".
Pffff. That's why Rajaat started the Preserver Jihad 700 years before starting the Cleansing Wars: to soften up the magical resistance.
It worked. Once it was done he started the CWs. No need of a Champion of Preservers by then.
Except that Bodach was no cake walk, it was a nice, major stronghold for what was left of the preserver resistance at the time.
Hell it took out the guy in charge of taking them out, that's a major accomplishment. They weren't any less of a threat than those that were slain during the jihad.
Given the references to the warrior nature of some SKs, I think War Mage would make a good choice for their defiler class, and the spell list coan be easily overcome by the additional spells learned as a Dragon. Plus, wearing armor kind of fits with my mental picture of bada$$e$ like Borys and Hamanu.
I'd say it definately fits.
Plus, wearing armor kind of fits with my mental picture of bada$$e$ like Borys and Hamanu.
WotC is allergic to creating armor special abilities that reduce spell failure chances.
Any Champion could get for himself a breastplate or other that has this ability, totally negating any spell failure chances. No need to take a PrC like spellsword.
Look into the Complete Book of Eldritch Might for such armor abilities.
Book of Eldritch Might is by Malhavoc, right?
Aye.
Except that Bodach was no cake walk, it was a nice, major stronghold for what was left of the preserver resistance at the time.
Hell it took out the guy in charge of taking them out, that's a major accomplishment. They weren't any less of a threat than those that were slain during the jihad.
There were still lots of strongholds for preservers during the CWs. Akarackle, plus the fortress occupied today by the Order. Bodach I wouldn't fit exactly into the mold of a preserver stronghold since the BoA describes it as a great neutral city. The text is not specific as to the reason for the attack on it: 1) Rajaat got tired of Bodach's neutrality in the Wars, or 2) having cleared up nearly every other preserver presence, Rajaat decides to finally clear up Bodach.
I would think strongholds like Akarackle and the Order Building, and cities full of wizards like Bodach, were 10 times more numerous in the Time of Magic, and as such Rajaat needed a Preserver Jihad of 700 years to clear up the place for the genocides to occur relatively unobstructed.
Irikos
Lv. 20 War Mage (Defiler)
Lv 10 War Mind
The War Mind as his psionic class explains the need for the built in Tower of Iron Will in his sword (Limited powers known and PP). War Mage +War Mind = extreme Warlord!
Bodach I wouldn't fit exactly into the mold of a preserver stronghold since the BoA describes it as a great neutral city. The text is not specific as to the reason for the attack on it: 1) Rajaat got tired of Bodach's neutrality in the Wars, or 2) having cleared up nearly every other preserver presence, Rajaat decides to finally clear up Bodach.
Oh yeah, duh on me.
I think I am getting that from the Tribe of One novels.
Guess Rajaat hates the Switzerland concept, hehe.
Irikos
Lv. 20 War Mage (Defiler)
Lv 10 War Mind
My build on Farcluun, a guy who is not a Champion of Rajaat, but rather a mortal guy who became a dragon over the course of a thousand years:
Farcluun: Male human dragon aristocrat 1/erudite 13/wizard (defiler) 17/archmage 1/dragon (stage-1) 9
That's 41 levels. Xlorep has his weakest Champion at about 42 I think.
Merovech the Mage-Hound: Male human wizard (defiler) 12/arch defiler 3/fighter 10
Wields the Cleaver
Wears bronze breastplate of superior spellcasting
Amen Thal the Devourer: Male human wizard (defiler) 13/arch defiler 10/archmage 2
Wears the Hunger
Which brings to mind the question, how ignorant was Tithian! With all his resources , he could have made himself a Dragon King,with no help from Borys or Rajaat
Nowhere in the Prism Pentad do we get a hint there is dragon metamorphosis spells laying around. Our heroes don't find any in their adventures, and Tithian does not find any in the Royal Tyrian Library either, or even in Kalak's personal affairs.
This means that Tithian was unaware that such a spell existed, and that the powers that be (Borys, Sacha, Wyan) did not deem necessary to clue him in. After a king's age of searching he might have found such a spell, oh....at about Free Year 87.
A bit late.
Terminus Vortexa (The Spiral towards the End)
Thri-Kreen
Lv 20 War Mage Defiler
Lv 15 Erudite
planning to get 5 more Erudite levels then begin Dragon transformation. Picture the Green dragon from Legend of Dragoon, if you've played it!
So, here we go, my take on it
Irikos
Lv. 20 War Mage (Defiler)
Lv 10 War Mind
The War Mind as his psionic class explains the need for the built in Tower of Iron Will in his sword (Limited powers known and PP). War Mage +War Mind = extreme Warlord!
I honestly think Irikos had no psionic powers. He may have been a wild talent at best. I'd say he was a straight up defiler/fighter who used magic to augment his already impressive fighting prowess.
Picture the Green dragon from Legend of Dragoon, if you've played it!
No, can't say I did.
Erudite is a weak and strong class at the same time. A straight 20th-level psion is stronger than a 20th-level erudite, but a millenia-old erudite is incredibly powerful. Why I chose it for Farcluun.
Some Champions should be erudites too, but not all.
Is it appropriate for ordinary mortals evolving in the world of the Dark Sun? Maybe not.
I have it that "erudism" is a school of thinking, like Tarandan psionics. Farcluun joined the Nebeton Hold, an ancient psionic school in Kalidnay. The organization predates the coming of Kalid-Ma.
This leaves the door open for the use of erudites on Athas (just resurect that school of thinking), or makes it perfect to introduce a class that no longer exists on Athas.
I'm having the two defiler warlords me and Methvezem are working on be somewhat like this (those guys lived during the PJ):
Merovech the Mage-Hound: Male human wizard (defiler) 12/arch defiler 3/fighter 10
Wields the Cleaver
Wears bronze breastplate of superior spellcasting
Amen Thal the Devourer: Male human wizard (defiler) 13/arch defiler 10/archmage 2
Wears the Hunger
I like this concept. Once you've stated them up, please post them.
I honestly think Irikos had no psionic powers. He may have been a wild talent at best. I'd say he was a straight up defiler/fighter who used magic to augment his already impressive fighting prowess.
I have no qualms with that because I believe that Rajaat gave his Champions levels when he created them, in a sort of XP channeling.
See, I subscribe to the Abbey school of thinking* :D
*Rajaat made his Champions dragons when he created them; he invested them with knowledge [levels]; the link with the Dark Lens is what allows for Templar magic; Champions had templars in their armies during the CWs
I like this concept. Once you've stated them up, please post them.
You'll notice they are not manifesters, why they are called "defiler warlords".
The new power of the Age was magic, so those guys were wizards.
I just imagine that for the first several hundred years of the Preserver Jihad, manifesters did not have adequate protections against magic, i.e. the transparency rules were skewed for the benefit of the wizards because psions had not yet developped powers that could affect or block magic, while Rajaat had managed to create spells that that could affect or block psionics (well, he's a superior being after all).
I have no qualms with that because I believe that Rajaat gave his Champions levels when he created them, in a sort of XP channeling.
See, I subscribe to the Abbey school of thinking* :D
*Rajaat made his Champions dragons when he created them; he invested them with knowledge [levels]; the link with the Dark Lens is what allows for Templar magic; Champions had templars in their armies during the CWs
This is exactly how I view the Champions. I believe that Rajaat brought them all into the first level of dragonhood when he made them his "Champions". It wasn't till centuries later that Borys and Dregoth figured out what the Warbringer had actually done to them. After some extensive research they both realized that they could continue to grow in power and metamorphosis into a dragon like creature.
I agree that psionics was probably not one of Irikos' strong points [...]
I imagine a guy like Irikos, born say...30 years before the start of the Preserver Jihad, would have become a fighter 5/wizard 10.
Then Rajaat makes him immune to aging and gives him the Silencer.
He survives the first few years of fighting (a testament to his strategic mind or some other attribute) to become fighter 10/wizard 15.
Then he might be fighter 15/wizard 20 by the time the 700 years of the Preserver Jihad that occur before the Cleansing Wars start have elapsed.
Rajaat rewards him for his survival skills, the results he gets, and his loyalty by making him a Champion, this enchanted uber being. He gains mindbending powers (probably around 15 to 20 levels in a manifesting class). He his tasked with a race (let the inconsistency drop for a second here please) and goes on cleansing.
He probably gets assigned, as lieutenants, some of the other defiler warlords that didn't make the cut, like Merovech or Amen Thal.
When he's finished with cleansing his race he's asked to finish the Preserver Jihad that was only put partially on hold while the Cleansing Wars raged.
He dies trying.
After some extensive research they both realized that they could continue to grow in power and metamorphosis into a dragon like creature.
I should have added to the list of the "Abbey school of thinking" that the Champions' dragon metamorphosis is not a staged process but a smooth, continuous process. They don't cast metamorphosis spells, but any form of spellcasting, and eating people's...souls, and channelling Templar magic through their Dark Lens connection causes the acceleration of the process.
Which means that the dragon metamorphosis spell described in the DS rules is a copy of that process, made availlable to the public, er...mortals I mean, in a number of stages of increasing power.
If you combine the Sweeping Strike ability with the SIlencer's ability to execute a whirlwind attack with a 10 foot range, you can hit everybody within 10 feet twice, every round! That's up to 24 enemies, struck 2 times each, per round!
Merovech is only a defiler warlord, and barely an epic character, yet with the Cleaver in his possession he can make cleave attacks against anyone he drops or "clouts". Since I made him take Whirlwind Attack too through his selection of feats, it means he can litteraly plow though an army on his own. If he gets surrounded by too many enemies to cleave his way through, he uses Whirlwind Attack on them and repels them all through the clouting effect.
Remember Sauron's uber attack with his mace in the initial sequence of LotR-1 ? The same.
Which means Rajaat's three swords are seriously underpowered, even the builds NytCrawlr made on his site. They need to be ubered-up. Seriously.
I entend to tackled them up with Methvezem once the rules for Dragons and Champions have come out of the Epic Bureau. In the mean time I'll tackle the Heartwood Spear, make it more...well, actually capable of mortally wounding Kalak.
NytCrawlr, you got any PCs to show off?
Just a few, most are conversions of Freedom NPCs.
Not 3.5 yet either.
dub dub dub crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=listarticles&secid=5
Merovech, Amen Thal and Nerad will adorn that section, ready to be used in campaigns that occur during the CWs, the Green Age, etc...
I should have added to the list of the "Abbey school of thinking" that the Champions' dragon metamorphosis is not a staged process but a smooth, continuous process. They don't cast metamorphosis spells, but any form of spellcasting, and eating people's...souls, and channelling Templar magic through their Dark Lens connection causes the acceleration of the process.
Which means that the dragon metamorphosis spell described in the DS rules is a copy of that process, made availlable to the public, er...mortals I mean, in a number of stages of increasing power.
That I don't agree with. I still think the SK/Champions need to cast spells and perform rituals to reach the next level of dragon metamorphosis. I also think it was Rajaat transforming them into the first level of dragonhood that connected them to the vortices and Borys later claimed he himself bestowed the power to the SKs to grant spells to followers thru the Dark Lens .
Which means Rajaat's three swords are seriously underpowered, even the builds NytCrawlr made on his site. They need to be ubered-up. Seriously.
I seriously don't think these swords are as powerful in 3.5 as they were in 2E. Some non artifact weapons in 3.5 are more powerful than some of these blades now.
That I don't agree with. I still think the SK/Champions need to cast spells and perform rituals to reach the next level of dragon metamorphosis.
Well, I did say I was following the Abbey school of thinking!
But I have to admit the part about not having to cast spells is an uncertainty. Discussing with Abbey and reading her novel and notes points to nothing precise concerning that.
Hamanu has obsidian spheres of various sizes in his palace, as if the dragon process he's been gifted with still requires ingestion of spheres at given moments. But that is all. No mention that Hamanu had to kill his citizens one year or any such moment of mass killing, which are requirements for the casting of those spells.
I'd say (and that is a personnal interpretations since she is not precise on that point) that the process for the Champions is continuous and occurs without their help. It still requires the ingestion of obsidian spheres past certain points, but no casting of metamorphosis spells.
I seriously don't think these swords are as powerful in 3.5 as they were in 2E. Some non artifact weapons in 3.5 are more powerful than some of these blades.
A simple, non-artifact sword using the epic rules, and with lots and lots of gold pieces, can be more powerful than those swords. Exactly my point.
And considering the epic artifact weapons, well...
Those DS swords need revemping. If the dragon rules can be changed from 10 stages to some other number, than surely the swords' powers can be made more appropriatelly 3.5/epic.
Me and Methvezem will work on two other swords also: the one used by Taraskir the Lion, and Sunray, the sword of the mad ranger Culler Aktryn.
Me and Methvezem will work on two other swords also: the one used by Taraskir the Lion, and Sunray, the sword of the mad ranger Culler Aktryn.
Wasn't Taraskir's sword just an over sized dragonbane greatsword?
Wasn't Taraskir's sword just an over sized dragonbane greatsword?
Heh! Of course. Its a sword supposed to be powerful but it comes out as lame. So does Sunray and most DS artifacts. Most of those in the PAoA don't even do what they do in the novels...or do it wrong.
Methvezem's build for Taraskir's sword looks dashing! The guy got skilzs!
The warlord Irikos, the left hand of Rajaat, sacks the city of Bodach-but is killed at the conclusion of the battle. His sword (a creation of Rajaat's), the Silencer, is lost for 2,000 years.
So this is the quote that makes everyone think he was a Champion? How come 'the left-hand of Rajaat' couldn't be some even more powerful SUPER-Champion and Irikos was there to keep the Champions in line.?
Should we believe that Rajaat learned the basics of magic from some outer planar being because it was stated in a Planescape book?
Was it? Which one?
Sp the jihad kinda ends as the CWs begin. Let's say Myron is tapped to become a champion. Irikos is given a slightly different job. He too is given the powers of a champion, but instead of being assigned a race to kill, it's his job to take care of upstart preservers. I kinda hate to admit it, but it's the easiest solution. He had no race to kill (though maybe he helped Abalache-Re a bit, just cuz he hated orcs or something), and was just supposed to make sure to keep the preservers down. He's technically a champion, with all the power that goes with that, but remained a trump card of sorts whose purpose was to attack preservers.
Or be some sort of god-like S.S.
HEY! I have an idea, what if Irikos means 'the left hand of' in Rhulisti? and Alabach-Re WAS Irikos was originally named Uyness irkos Rajaat??
Nah... I still think Irikos didn't need to be a race slayer at all. I'm sure genocide wasn't Rajaat's only evil vice. Maybe Irikos was Rajaat's Hecubus! (Kids in the Hall reference BTW!)
-J
Giving a non-general an artifact sword is ludricous though, give him a lesser artifact or an epic weapon that still helps get the job done and I wouldn't be arguing this with you.
What about a powerful guardian? A super-assassin? A figure-head? A invincable juggernaught?
Lots of reasons why you may grant an artifact to a non-general.
Lots of reasons why you may grant an artifact to a non-general.
The main reason not to grant it is the guy will expediently get himself killed by the first uber enemy or powerful conclave and lose the freakin' artifact!
"Come on everyone, now that this servant of Rajaat has been vainquished let us pass the next week dispelling this uber sword until it is no more."
Everyone: "Yay!"
"Lieutenant, you've blocking extradimentionnal travel to prevent the sword from teleporting back to Rajaat once this guy died, right?"
"Yes General! I started doing that as soon as it was evident we were getting the upper hand on this guy"
"Excellent"
The main reason not to grant it is the guy will expediently get himself killed by the first uber enemy or powerful conclave and lose the freakin' artifact!
"Come on everyone, now that this servant of Rajaat has been vainquished let us pass the next week dispelling this uber sword until it is no more."
Everyone: "Yay!"
"Lieutenant, you've blocking extradimentionnal travel to prevent the sword from teleporting back to Rajaat once this guy died, right?"
"Yes General! I started doing that as soon as it was evident we were getting the upper hand on this guy"
"Excellent"
Rajaat was an ultra powerful magical God with a psychotic bend for genocide. Nobody said he was a genius. :P
Was it? Which one?
It was hinted at in one the PS books. I think it may have been Faces of Sigil. I'm not positive tough.
Hey, this thread is now a page over the length of the last one on this topic. How cool is that? :P
Nah... I still think Irikos didn't need to be a race slayer at all. I'm sure genocide wasn't Rajaat's only evil vice. Maybe Irikos was Rajaat's Hecubus! (Kids in the Hall reference BTW!)
-J
Rajaat: "Man-Servant Irikos, do you know where I put my 'Secret Plans to Wipe Out the Champions Once Their Genocidal Quest Is Completed' papers? They were here a minute ago, but now I can't find them..."
Irikos: "Why yes Master Rajaat. Yes I do!
Rajaat: "Well Man-Servant Irikos, where are they?"
Irikos: "Oh, Master, I gave them to the Champions, of course..."
Rajaat: *GASP* "Ooooo, Evil, Evil, Evil!"
-----I apologize for this interruption and, now back to our regularly schedualed thread-----
Rajaat: "Man-Servant Irikos, do you know where I put my 'Secret Plans to Wipe Out the Champions Once Their Genocidal Quest Is Completed' papers? They were here a minute ago, but now I can't find them..."
Irikos: "Why yes Master Rajaat. Yes I do!
Rajaat: "Well Man-Servant Irikos, where are they?"
Irikos: "Oh, Master, I gave them to the Champions, of course..."
Rajaat: *GASP* "Ooooo, Evil, Evil, Evil!"
-----I apologize for this interruption and, now back to our regularly schedualed thread-----
So THAT'S how the Champions found out about his master plan! I knew it had to be something!
, his champions. First he developed the Champion process, step by step, with some of his most favoured servants, which didn't become real Champions, though they were more powerful through this. Then after creating the first champion he started making more, one by one, each one becoming more "perfect" till Hamanu, the non plus ultra bad a**
.One of these "First" Champions was the one who was tasked with the Orcs, we will name him.... say "Bob"
, Rajaat even gave him the big bad Sword, you know the one we all want to have. He was killed by the most powerfull Orc champions, not one but many, those cowards, say mostly Preservers, so Rajaat was kind of "Pi**ed off" because he though his Champions were unbeatable, which was embarrassing :embarrass . This time he wouldn't underestimate the enemy and he split the power in two, you have to learn from your faults, first he made a new real Champion, tasking her with the Orcs, Abalach, then he gave the other source of power to another General (like the idea of beeing Abalachs Lover) Irikos, who though wasn't made a Champion, was still a powerfull Defiler/Warrior whose powers were enchanced. His task was too, to slay the Orcs, mostly their champions, and of course like all Champions and Warllords, he had the command "kill a Preserver on sight :D ". Should one fail, he wouldn't loose everything, and the job would have been done. This was the first and last time he did such a thing. I mean next time one died he created just a new one who wasn't that dumb.
He wasn't very eager to create more then one champions per race, because he knew that the sun got weaker with each one, and though it could regenerate, faster if a Champion dies because his energy flows back to the source, he didn't wanted to wait that long for a new Blue age ;).
BTW Rajaat was said to have the power to do this Job alone, within one day RaFoaDK, what do you think why he didn't?
Just my 2 ceramic bits,
It's late and I'm tired so excuse my rambling, forget and forgive ------ run's away
-L
Those DS swords need revemping. If the dragon rules can be changed from 10 stages to some other number, than surely the swords' powers can be made more appropriatelly 3.5/epic.
I have no problem with that. I thought they were seriously underpowered in 3.0 too.
So this is the quote that makes everyone think he was a Champion?
Nope, getting one of the three most powerful swords in Athas is what should make him a champion though.
Rajaat was an ultra powerful magical God with a psychotic bend for genocide. Nobody said he was a genius. :P
Uh, he was a genius, heh.
That's the scary part, that he could be that freaked in the head and still be a genius.
Nope, getting one of the three most powerful swords in Athas is what should make him a champion though.
On the contrary Nyt. If you have such Powerful beings, which can crush Armies on their own, you don't really need to power them up, especially since they have their own Armies. Except they were defeated before or face an equally powerful opponent, very unlikely don't you think.
No consider this, you have Champions, each one is more powerful then all 3 Swords at once, given all his resources you could have 9 swords and would loose. Then you have other servants, each one the finest there can be, after a Champion of course, but there are other beings that are as strong as them, so you would give them this kind of Edge, right?
Your example with the nuke was a nice one, but not quite right, you would give a nuke to a General, yes, but such a sword is more like the best sniper-laser-weapon you could ever have, and such a thing is best used in the hands of a Sniper-soldier ;).
Irikos was meant to be a Champion in the minds of the "Book of Artefacts" Designers I think, but they didn't really knew Athas that well, and I doubt they even knew that there are 13 Champions. Now the Artefacts of Athas book published this sword once more, though this time after the Revised setting, where the number and the Races were set permanently, so Irikos couldn't be a Champion anymore, but Artefacts of Athas has it’s own share of faults, like most of the Revised setting
.BTW I know Rikus defeated the Dragon, using the Sword, but he was surely a Level 30 Gladiator in the final showdown, starting as a 16 Level Gladiator in the first PP book, this would seem realistic, and even on this high Level he needed the Help of the Dark Lens and other powerful allies to do it.
Swords are nice and good, but Magic and Psi are better ;).
What will become of Rikus after mastering his body and his fighting skills, I bet he will start mastering his mind = he becomes a Psioicist
.Wheres the logic in this?
On the contrary Nyt. If you have such Powerful beings, which can crush Armies on their own, you don't really need to power them up, especially since they have their own Armies.
Then why was Borys and Myron given swords? Both were equal if not a little more powerful than Irikos.
Your example with the nuke was a nice one, but not quite right, you would give a nuke to a General, yes, but such a sword is more like the best sniper-laser-weapon you could ever have, and such a thing is best used in the hands of a Sniper-soldier ;).
Except the other two "nukes" were given to Generals, so not sure I follow your logic. Unless you are stating that Borys and Myron were sniper-soldiers, and that is simply not true.
Irikos was meant to be a Champion in the minds of the "Book of Artefacts" Designers I think, but they didn't really knew Athas that well, and I doubt they even knew that there are 13 Champions. Now the Artefacts of Athas book published this sword once more, though this time after the Revised setting, where the number and the Races were set permanently, so Irikos couldn't be a Champion anymore, but Artefacts of Athas has it’s own share of faults, like most of the Revised setting
Except that PAoA and the official timeline started changing inconsistent things from BoA and other books. PAoA even starts calling those who received the swords champions, with a lower case c, instead of the much preferred upper case c that some seem to like to argue.
BTW I know Rikus defeated the Dragon, using the Sword, but he was surely a Level 30 Gladiator in the final showdown, starting as a 16 Level Gladiator in the first PP book, this would seem realistic, and even on this high Level he needed the Help of the Dark Lens and other powerful allies to do it.
Swords are nice and good, but Magic and Psi are better ;).
I would agree that Rikus is an epic gladiator and was so after Kalak probably.
Don't neccessarily agree with those numbers of levels, but he definately had to be epic.
These weapons are actually made to kill the champion, not a race in particular. Rememeber that the Scourge is a +6 agaisnt champions, and when a champions attack you, its blink you away from harm. Dregoth was killed by the Scorcher, the Dragon and Ablach-re by the Scourge. Rajaat made these swords so after the champions had wiped out all the non-human race, they will fight each other in a sort of ``human civil war``, and then, wipe humanity. Of course, Rajaat didnt told that to his champions, so he probably said to Borys that the Scourge was a Dwarf-killer sword. The champions are highly vulnerable agaisnt the Scourge (except Hamanu). So the champions with the sword could easely kill the other champions. There only three swords. So you have only three champions left at the end. Hamanu his immune to these weapons, so he kill the two remaining champions, and then, there only one champions left for Rajaat to destroy. He then destroy the rest of the human himself and he have his Blue age.
I think that was his plan (at least, in my campaign), but as you know, it went all wrong. the Silencer dissapeared, and Borys learned about Rajaat real plan and made the rebellion (its probably why he left his sword in Kemalok and later, Hamanu throwed the Scorcher in the silt sea). the champions learned that these weapons were in fact made agaisnt them, so, they got rid of it, thinking nobody would found them (Imagine Androponis surprise when he saw that elf raider with the Silencer, - Houston, we have a problem).
That my impretation of the swords, but you can make what you want it.
Wouldn't having a sword for each Champion help Rajaat ensure that they would kill each other though?
I think that only one champion and sword mattered in that instance, and that is Hammanu and the Scorcher, if not with its sister the Scourge as well.
I think that only one champion and sword mattered in that instance, and that is Hammanu and the Scorcher, if not with its sister the Scourge as well.
True, but the sword was first made for Myron though.
Its an interesting theory about the swords meant to kill the other champions, but has some gaps IMO.
True, but the sword was first made for Myron though.
Its an interesting theory about the swords meant to kill the other champions, but has some gaps IMO.
Let me clarify.
Yes, the sword was first made for Myron, but then later Rajaat created Hammanu and made it to where only one sword could effect him, and that is the silencer (which so happen to be lost before Hammanu was created). So it makes sense that while the chapions weren't meant to eradicate themselves, Hammanu was meant to eradicate the remaining champions along with the humans as well.
That's my 2cp anyways.
Let me clarify.
Yes, the sword was first made for Myron, but then later Rajaat created Hammanu and made it to where only one sword could effect him, and that is the silencer (which so happen to be lost before Hammanu was created). So it makes sense that while the chapions weren't meant to eradicate themselves, Hammanu was meant to eradicate the remaining champions along with the humans as well.
That's my 2cp anyways.
Just curious, how did you come to the conclussion that the Silencer could harm Hammanu?
Then why was Borys and Myron given swords? Both were equal if not a little more powerful than Irikos..
As far as I know, Borys was a Warrior of the first Butcher, and let's be honest, he was almost as dumb as his master because with all the nice Champion powers, he still went into hand to hand Combat against a Dwarven King (!)
, which cost him almost his life. So the story about those swords should be revamped, they were given to Rajaats best Champions, ups smalls c I mean ;), all Warriors, maybe dual-classed Psi or Def. Borys would fit nicely, as for Myron, well Rajaat should have given the Sword to Hamanu because he prefers HtH like Borys. If you insist giving it to Myron you could say he was once a Warrior before degenerating into this.......BTW do you remember the Sword Borys used against Rajaat in RaFoaDK? It should be as powerful as those 3, don't you think?
Except the other two "nukes" were given to Generals, so not sure I follow your logic. Unless you are stating that Borys and Myron were sniper-soldiers, and that is simply not true..
Yes that's what I meant. They were sniper-soldiers before, and Rajaat didn't want to loose them because of this "weakness".
Except that PAoA and the official timeline started changing inconsistent things from BoA and other books. PAoA even starts calling those who received the swords champions, with a lower case c, instead of the much preferred upper case c that some seem to like to argue..
I also think that it is a weak argument, the thing with the lower c, but so are most of our arguments. The truth about these swords is a simple one, a bunch of drunken Designers blew it
. Honestly, you want Irikos to be a champion then make him one, but officially he will never be one, but then again who cares what's official ;). Post the work when you are finished I will surely appreciate it .I would agree that Rikus is an epic gladiator and was so after Kalak probably.
Don't necessarily agree with those numbers of levels, but he definitely had to be epic.
Yep, in my Athas he is the highest Level, nothing less is allowed to kill my Dragon
. BTW did you like my idea about Irikos, Abalach and the "First" Orc-Plague?
You know what, all this lets me think about Rajaat and his unfairness, maybe there should be a weapon for every Champion. Dregoth a Club, Nibenay a Dagger, Lalali-Puy a Spear, Tec an Axe, Sielba a Bow, etc..... This would be cool
.Just curious, how did you come to the conclussion that the Silencer could harm Hammanu?
Read PAoA. ;)
It states this before the sword entries if I'm not mistaken.
I might have gotten the swords mixed up again too, but doubt it.
Maybe a Macahuitl would be better for Tectuktitlay....... :P
Yep it was said the "Swords" were given to his Champions, not "Weapons" There have to be more
Read PAoA. ;)
It states this before the sword entries if I'm not mistaken.
I might have gotten the swords mixed up again too, but doubt it.
Hmmmm, I was just looking at that the other night and don't remember reading anything like that. I'll take another look when I get home.
Hmmmm, I was just looking at that the other night and don't remember reading anything like that. I'll take another look when I get home.
Ah, it was on another thread, I knew we had covered this already.
PAoA p.4 - existing artifacts...
"...Of these three swords only the Silencer of Bodach is capable of harming Hamanu of Urik, as was Rajaat's design..."
Ah, it was on another thread, I knew we had covered this already.
PAoA p.4 - existing artifacts...
"...Of these three swords only the Silencer of Bodach is capable of harming Hamanu of Urik, as was Rajaat's design..."
Interesting. That seems to indicate that Irikos was suppose to take out Hamanu at some point.
Yes that's what I meant. They were sniper-soldiers before, and Rajaat didn't want to loose them because of this "weakness".
Well, they weren't sniper soldiers. ;)
They were indeed generals of their respective armies.
I also think that it is a weak argument, the thing with the lower c, but so are most of our arguments.
Just stating that you can't use it since PAoA nipped that.
I agree it's a weak argument.
The truth about these swords is a simple one, a bunch of drunken Designers blew it
While that might be true or not, it's something they did try to fix later.
I personally don't have issue with re-writing some of the inconsistencies in order to make them fit more with canon.
Honestly, you want Irikos to be a champion then make him one, but officially he will never be one,
I won't rest till he is, mwuahahahahaha!
but then again who cares what's official ;). Post the work when you are finished I will surely appreciate it
Already did, where've you been? ;)
dub dub dub crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=176
Short story I wrote on Irikos' return: dub dub dub crimsonsun.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=184
BTW did you like my idea about Irikos, Abalach and the "First" Orc-Plague?
Don't remember that, heh.
Interesting. That seems to indicate that Irikos was suppose to take out Hamanu at some point.
Nope, too much time difference between the two.
More like Hammanu was made industructible by anyone that wasn't Rajaat, heh, since he was suppose to be the champions of the champions, heh.
160th King's Age (-2,310)
-The warlord Irikos, the left hand of Rajaat, sacks the city of Bodach-but is killed at the conclusion of the battle. His sword (a creation of Rajaat's), the Silencer, is lost for 2,000 years.
163rd King's Age (-2,079)
-King's Vengeance
Myron of Yorum is replaced as Troll Scorcher by Manu of Deche, later known as Hamanu of Urik. He is given the sword the Scorcher, created by Rajaat, to complete his task.
Hm, lets say Rajaat made his Wars with the Preservers, in which he choosed the best to become Warlords. The Wars weren't over when he sarted to cleanse the Races, one by one carefully choosing, from his very best
First he developed the Champion process, step by step, with some of his most favoured servants, which didn't become real Champions, though they were more powerful through this. Then after creating the first champion he started making more, one by one, each one becoming more "perfect" till Hamanu, the non plus ultra bad a**
One of these "First" Champions was the one who was tasked with the Orcs, we will name him.... say "Bob"
This time he wouldn't underestimate the enemy and he split the power in two, you have to learn from your faults, first he made a new real Champion, tasking her with the Orcs, Abalach, then he gave the other source of power to another General (like the idea of beeing Abalachs Lover) Irikos, who though wasn't made a Champion, was still a powerfull Defiler/Warrior whose powers were enchanced. His task was too, to slay the Orcs, mostly their champions, and of course like all Champions and Warllords, he had the command "kill a Preserver on sight :D ". Should one fail, he wouldn't loose everything, and the job would have been done. This was the first and last time he did such a thing. I mean next time one died he created just a new one who wasn't that dumb.
He wasn't very eager to create more then one champions per race, because he knew that the sun got weaker with each one, and though it could regenerate, faster if a Champion dies because his energy flows back to the source, he didn't wanted to wait that long for a new Blue age ;).
BTW Rajaat was said to have the power to do this Job alone, within one day RaFoaDK, what do you think why he didn't?
-L
Never quoted myself, but fo you Nyt I will do it.
BTW Very Cool Page you have there
.Never quoted myself, but fo you Nyt I will do it.
It's a good idea, but I think Irikos still needs to be a champion, and I think I have clearly stated why by now, heh.
You don't give one of the three "nukes" to a guy that isn't going to be a general.
BTW Very Cool Page you have there
Merci.
I forgot, in my Athas Kalak isn't a Champion, he gets his spells from Sacha and Wyan, who don't even know it, after all he has Godlike Int. That's why he doesn't minds his Templar casting too often. IIRC tRaFoaDK mentioned this "fact" first.
I'm all for that too, though I still had Kalak able to grant spells thanks to Borys giving him just that in the Pristine Tower when it was time to accelerate everyone a little after Rajaat's defeat and imprisonment.
Not sure I like the whole Sacha and Wyan granting spells to the templars thing that much.
?
I'm all for that too, though I still had Kalak able to grant spells thanks to Borys giving him just that in the Pristine Tower when it was time to accelerate everyone a little after Rajaat's defeat and imprisonment.
Not sure I like the whole Sacha and Wyan granting spells to the templars thing that much.
I have to like it because my Athas has only 13 champions, Oronis is "just" an Avangion and Daskinor "only" a Dragon. They have their Templar granting Powers from other Champion "corpses"......... sounds sick eh.
Hm, Athas seems to be full of Advanced Beings, all the Champions, at least 4 Dragons (Kalak, Farcluum, Daskinor and Graytch (25th Level!)), 6 Avangions (Korngunard, Nerad, The Sage, The Great One, Amiska and Oronis), and a couple of other possible ones. Ok ok a lot are dead but who cares ;). BTW does someone remeber Elemental AB?
Who are graytch and amiska?
Graytch is an Athasian Dragon from a TSR Trading Card 1993, if you like I will send you the scan.
Amiska is the Preserver who became a 21st Level Avangion in the "Service" Short Story by Lynn Abbey, which was included in the Black Flames Adventure.
I have to like it because my Athas has only 13 champions, Oronis is "just" an Avangion and Daskinor "only" a Dragon. They have their Templar granting Powers from other Champion "corpses"......... sounds sick eh.
In my campaign I had Dregoth steal all the SK's Vortices, including the dead ones, as part of a ceremony to turn him into the god he has been seeking to become.
In my campaign I had Dregoth steal all the SK's Vortices, including the dead ones, as part of a ceremony to turn him into the god he has been seeking to become.
A Good Idea, do you have Dregoths Ascending? Do you want it (2ed of course)?
Graytch is an Athasian Dragon from a TSR Trading Card 1993, if you like I will send you the scan.
Can you send me the scan too?
Merci.
Will have to check out Amiska when I get home.
In my campaign I had Dregoth steal all the SK's Vortices, including the dead ones, as part of a ceremony to turn him into the god he has been seeking to become.
Yeah, that's close to what happens in DA.
DA?
Dregoths Ascending. I have it, and Secrets of the Dead Lands, do you need them?
Nyt I will send you the scans, I will have just to switch to ma Powerbook.
Its an interesting theory about the swords meant to kill the other champions, but has some gaps IMO.
And what are these gaps???
I want the card scan to!
[email]jaykeays@hotmail.com[/email]
[email]lukeena@yahoo.com[/email]
Though I think I still like DA over SotDL, though I'm baised towards Dregoth, hehe.
Graytch is an Athasian Dragon from a TSR Trading Card 1993, if you like I will send you the scan.
If possible, I would appreciate if you could sent it to me too...
Dregoths Ascending. I have it, and Secrets of the Dead Lands, do you need them?
Nyt I will send you the scans, I will have just to switch to ma Powerbook.
man I would love it if you could send me a copy of those as well!! I would also love that scan of Graytch. :D
*just needling* it's all good. i'm sure what comes out will be an interesting styem.
*whispers* i still think you have to be able to manifest 9th level psionic powers
*tip toes away*
We don't know what the requirements are. The rules don't yet exist.
And referencing the 2E rules is to no avail: the 3E dragon rules will not be a mirror of the 2E rules. With XlorepDarkHelm in the Epic bureau you can be sure of this.
is't the whole point of converting from 2e to 3e to use the 2e rules as a reference point? surley you're not just creating the stuff from stracth and not looking at the 2e rules at all? not even a cursory glance at this reference material?
Sure, but then we convert from the spirit of those rules for the most part, not the letter, mainly cause the 2e system was horrid in alot of areas.
Put it this way... teams of adventurers are a bit like sports teams. Now everyone who vaugley follows soccer would know of real madrid, man united, etc. Take Rugby, the two top teams are the New Zealand Allblacks and the Australian Wallabies accordin the the IRB rankings right now.
Now, if you are facing the wallabies, you know thier strength is in thier increadibly agile backline and the most creative attacking plays on the planet, thier weakness in thier forward pack, and they have THE most capped captain of any team in the world leading them.
In role play terms, they would be an adventuring team with not the greatest fighters, but amazing agile and swift attacking troops like rangers and rouges, with a grizzled and still formible general guiding them - but declining in his own prowress (ala George Gregan)
Now, compare that to the New Zealand All Blacks. Best defensive team in the world. Second best forward pack behind the south african springboks and the second best attack in the world behind the wallabies. The best all around team in the world. Thier strength is up front, and thier captain, whilst experienced, is new as a captain in terms of internationals.
In roleplaying terms the All Blacks would have really tough fighters, pretty good rouges and rangers, and a leader who has just taken command of the group and perhaps in not as experienced in leading at the wallabies (ala Umanga)
OK, so the two sides duke it out on the field - the result? they beat us in New Zealand, we beat them in Australia. Tie.
In roleplaying terms, they are both equally successful on thier day, on thier own terms, but the allblacks have a better chance of completing the mission.
What does all this have to do with balance? there is no such thing. If you were facing the wallabies on a rugby field, you take them on up-front, where they are weakest, and spend your defensive effort on shutting down the back line, where they can hurt you most. In game terms, the NPC's would target the 'out of balance' players (rouges, rangers, the back-line) to reduce thier attacking prowress. They'd also target the general, because without him, they are goners.
Now, if you are facing the All Blacks, you're in a different bind. You need to match them up front, but taking the general out will do little, and you don't have to worry too much about the backline... so wherever you target, you'll disrupt somewhat.
Two teams. Once "unblanced" one more "balanced" both even, both capable of being beaten.
If i'm a running a 2e game, and a character, say a Cleric, gets stupidly more powerful than the other characters - they get targetted. After all, the group has a rep (like the wallabies, the all blacks, man un etc) but people who know a little about the sport (or in this case what the PC's do for a living) will know the unique abilities of team they are facing and adapt. So they take steps to neutralise the clerics influence on the goup.
Voila, balance. That's what annoys me about 3e, is they try and force balance down your throat. I know, i know, athas.orgs contract means you have to have balance. Doesn't mean i have to like it.
Anyway, enough ranting for one day. It's unbalancing :D
Sure, but then we convert from the spirit of those rules for the most part, not the letter, mainly cause the 2e system was horrid in alot of areas.
in anycase, any good DM can take down a munchkin player.
The real point is, the DM shouldn't have to.
I know I got real sick and tired of dealing with that crap, almost stopped me from playing D&D completely and made me want to move on, and I did stop for awhile, but then 3rd ed came out and I gave it a try, much better.
If you like 2e so much and it works for you, then fine, have fun playing it and don't worry about upgrading, whatever floats your boat. I for one got tired of dealing with all the crap 2e threw out though, and I would like to enjoy the game too rather than just having to tweak things left and right constantly because the rules base sucks arse.
As for weather a DM should have to take steps to deal with singually powerful PC's, it happens even in 3e, i think it's just something that has to be done from time to time.
Each to thier own. :D
As for weather a DM should have to take steps to deal with singually powerful PC's, it happens even in 3e, i think it's just something that has to be done from time to time.
The difference is it happens alot less in 3e than it does in 2e.
The difference is it happens alot less in 3e than it does in 2e.
Take Rugby, the two top teams are the New Zealand Allblacks and the Australian Wallabies accordin the the IRB rankings right now.
Wow, rugby on the Dark Sun page. Good job. :D
:invasion:Wow, rugby on the Dark Sun page. Good job. :D