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Riverwind stronger than Caramon?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 03, 2004 11:16:15 So far the only thing in the new War of the Lance sourcebook that made me raise an eyebrow is the fact that Riverwind is now *much* more the "strongman" of the group than Caramon.

It appears that in this one case the letter of their 1st edition stats was followed more than the spirit.

In the novels, Caramon was the Hercules of the group, day in, day out. His 18/63 1st edition strength reflected that. On the best day of his life Riverwind couldn't match him.

But now Caramon has a 19 STR and Riverwind an 18, exact equals in game terms. That in and of itself doesn't seem right. But then Riverwind gets to Rage on top of that and hulk out every day to a rip roaring 22 when he gets mad!

I think a level or two of Ranger instead of Barbarian would have been more appropriate for Riverwind, or at the very least dropping his STR to a 14 or a 16 so that his Rage doesn't so outmanhandle Caramon.

Just my two cents, and something a quick house rule in my campaign will easily resolve. Awesome book all around.
#2
cam_banks
Dec 03, 2004 11:49:58
In the novels, Caramon was the Hercules of the group, day in, day out. His 18/63 1st edition strength reflected that. On the best day of his life Riverwind couldn't match him.

Riverwind's always been stronger than Caramon, in every instance of his gaming representation. Had they actually gone toe to toe in the books, we might have seen evidence to the contrary. Caramon excels in areas Riverwind doesn't, and is the better fighter overall, so it's no big discrepancy in my book.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
wolf72
Dec 03, 2004 11:53:28 that 19 str gives Caramon more carrying capacity too ...
#4
brimstone
Dec 03, 2004 12:18:44
Riverwind's always been stronger than Caramon, in every instance of his gaming representation.

What do you mean? Riverwind had an 18(35) Strength in AD&D and Caramon had an 18(63).
#5
cam_banks
Dec 03, 2004 12:23:33
What do you mean? Riverwind had an 18(35) Strength in AD&D and Caramon had an 18(63).

This is what I get when I post immediately after staying up with my toddler for 4 hours.

Yes, you're right. What I should have said was that they were always very close in Strength (Riverwind with 18/35 and Caramon with 18/63) but not so much that Caramon could overpower Riverwind easily. Hence the 18 vs the 19.

I wrote those stat blocks, which makes my earlier erroneous comment even more bizarre. Apologies all.

Cheers,
Cam
#6
dragontooth
Dec 04, 2004 1:55:37 Not only that but they've always described Riverwind as being tall musclar plainsmen. They never actually did a comparison of the 2 in the books. Anytime the party needed someone strong. Caramon was the first to volunteer. So never really got to see Riverwind strength until he went tearing thru all those Draconians in Xak Tsaroth. Hince you also see his rage ability.
#7
ranger_reg
Dec 04, 2004 2:27:55 Are we comparing their raw Strength (scores), or their best combat prowess (e.g., BABs, feats, class features, etc.)?
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 04, 2004 11:45:49 I have no problem with the two being close in strength. I always got that impression from reading the novels. I just didn't think in stat terms that they were going to be that close. Also I was just looking through Caramon's and Kitiara's stats and noticed that they are lacking the Dirty-Fighting feat. Not that it's really of any importance, but whenever Kitiara is brought up in the novels it mentions that she taught Caramon how to fight and kick/hit his opponet in the family jewels when the judges weren't looking.
#9
caeruleus
Dec 04, 2004 13:42:53
They never actually did a comparison of the 2 in the books.

Not a direct one, but I recall at the beginning of Dragons of Autumn Twilight that it was saying how strong Riverwind looked, and how he was much taller than Caramon, although Caramon's arms and chest were thicker than Riverwind's. But that's the only comparison I recall.
#10
darthsylver
Dec 05, 2004 4:08:22 Caramon was just always the first one to step forward when someone strong was needed, as Riverwind felt it more important to protect Goldmoon he rarely felt the need to volunteer. It was because of Caramon's need ( :D ) to prove himself that Riverwind never really got to show off his muscles.
#11
zombiegleemax
Dec 05, 2004 16:36:52
I wrote those stat blocks, which makes my earlier erroneous comment even more bizarre. Apologies all.

Eh. I saw what you guys were going for (directly translating their stats from AD&D to 3.5e.) I just thought it was interesting that mechanically something was lost in the translation. I realize that the loss of "exceptional strength" and the addition of Rage make it trickier to port the characters across and you probably handled it the way the "official" rules would suggest to convert them; keep the numbers, drop the percentage for exceptional strength, and then factor in class abilities like Rage.

Personally I would have asked, "who's mechanically stronger according to AD&D? Who seems to be stronger in the books?" and then converted them accordingly but that probably isn't an issue that even most Dragonlance fans would care about. I just thought it was worth mentioning. Great job nonetheless.
#12
true_blue
Dec 05, 2004 16:53:01 Personally I dont remember anywhere where it was even alluded that Riverwind was strong. I understand that it mentioned he had some muscles, but I'm sure so did Sturm, Tanis, etc. Personally I dont believe that any of the Companions should be within 1 point of Caramon.

Its not really a huge deal, doesnt really affect much. I figure Riverwind was given the 18 so that he would have a better to hit and damage. I just dont think any of them were *that* close, maybe 2 points off. But.. its a minor reflection on a small topic. Also I commend anyone who has to stat out "heroes" and try to make them acceptable to the community.
#13
zombiegleemax
Dec 06, 2004 20:40:16 Well, for one thing, if I remember correctly, a 19 Str give you more of a carrying capacity and such, not too much, but it's still more, and that's really where Caramon shined more that Riverwind.

Anyway, in the Chronicles, Riverwind was at first described as sickly, and wasn't very strong, but that was because he had just recovered from an illness, which probably drained his Str score. In the Legends, Riverwind is described as incredibly muscular and *HUGE*, in his brief cameo appearance.
#14
darthsylver
Dec 07, 2004 13:45:20 He took a couple months off hunting and making babies with goldmoon in order to bulk up for his special appearance in that movie (uh book :D ).

You know, kinda like Brad Pitt did for Troy. :D :D
#15
zombiegleemax
Dec 07, 2004 16:39:43
Anyway, in the Chronicles, Riverwind was at first described as sickly, and wasn't very strong, but that was because he had just recovered from an illness, which probably drained his Str score. In the Legends, Riverwind is described as incredibly muscular and *HUGE*, in his brief cameo appearance.

Actually Caeruleus is right. Riverwind is described as pretty muscular in DoAT, but then it states that Caramon's arms were at least three times as big as Riverwind's.

Is Caramon's weird drinking index from 1e going to show up in the Legends book?

-Angus

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 03, 2004 11:16:15	So far the only thing in the new War of the Lance sourcebook that made me raise an eyebrow is the fact that Riverwind is now much more the "strongman" of the group than Caramon. It appears that in this one case the letter of their 1st edition stats was followed more than the spirit. In the novels, Caramon was the Hercules of the group, day in, day out. His 18/63 1st edition strength reflected that. On the best day of his life Riverwind couldn't match him. But now Caramon has a 19 STR and Riverwind an 18, exact equals in game terms. That in and of itself doesn't seem right. But then Riverwind gets to Rage on top of that and hulk out every day to a rip roaring 22 when he gets mad! I think a level or two of Ranger instead of Barbarian would have been more appropriate for Riverwind, or at the very least dropping his STR to a 14 or a 16 so that his Rage doesn't so outmanhandle Caramon. Just my two cents, and something a quick house rule in my campaign will easily resolve. Awesome book all around.
#2 cam_banks Dec 03, 2004 11:49:58	In the novels, Caramon was the Hercules of the group, day in, day out. His 18/63 1st edition strength reflected that. On the best day of his life Riverwind couldn't match him. Riverwind's always been stronger than Caramon, in every instance of his gaming representation. Had they actually gone toe to toe in the books, we might have seen evidence to the contrary. Caramon excels in areas Riverwind doesn't, and is the better fighter overall, so it's no big discrepancy in my book. Cheers, Cam
#3 wolf72 Dec 03, 2004 11:53:28	that 19 str gives Caramon more carrying capacity too ...
#4 brimstone Dec 03, 2004 12:18:44	Riverwind's always been stronger than Caramon, in every instance of his gaming representation. What do you mean? Riverwind had an 18(35) Strength in AD&D and Caramon had an 18(63).
#5 cam_banks Dec 03, 2004 12:23:33	What do you mean? Riverwind had an 18(35) Strength in AD&D and Caramon had an 18(63). This is what I get when I post immediately after staying up with my toddler for 4 hours. Yes, you're right. What I should have said was that they were always very close in Strength (Riverwind with 18/35 and Caramon with 18/63) but not so much that Caramon could overpower Riverwind easily. Hence the 18 vs the 19. I wrote those stat blocks, which makes my earlier erroneous comment even more bizarre. Apologies all. Cheers, Cam
#6 dragontooth Dec 04, 2004 1:55:37	Not only that but they've always described Riverwind as being tall musclar plainsmen. They never actually did a comparison of the 2 in the books. Anytime the party needed someone strong. Caramon was the first to volunteer. So never really got to see Riverwind strength until he went tearing thru all those Draconians in Xak Tsaroth. Hince you also see his rage ability.
#7 ranger_reg Dec 04, 2004 2:27:55	Are we comparing their raw Strength (scores), or their best combat prowess (e.g., BABs, feats, class features, etc.)?
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 04, 2004 11:45:49	I have no problem with the two being close in strength. I always got that impression from reading the novels. I just didn't think in stat terms that they were going to be that close. Also I was just looking through Caramon's and Kitiara's stats and noticed that they are lacking the Dirty-Fighting feat. Not that it's really of any importance, but whenever Kitiara is brought up in the novels it mentions that she taught Caramon how to fight and kick/hit his opponet in the family jewels when the judges weren't looking.
#9 caeruleus Dec 04, 2004 13:42:53	They never actually did a comparison of the 2 in the books. Not a direct one, but I recall at the beginning of Dragons of Autumn Twilight that it was saying how strong Riverwind looked, and how he was much taller than Caramon, although Caramon's arms and chest were thicker than Riverwind's. But that's the only comparison I recall.
#10 darthsylver Dec 05, 2004 4:08:22	Caramon was just always the first one to step forward when someone strong was needed, as Riverwind felt it more important to protect Goldmoon he rarely felt the need to volunteer. It was because of Caramon's need ( :D ) to prove himself that Riverwind never really got to show off his muscles.
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2004 16:36:52	I wrote those stat blocks, which makes my earlier erroneous comment even more bizarre. Apologies all. Eh. I saw what you guys were going for (directly translating their stats from AD&D to 3.5e.) I just thought it was interesting that mechanically something was lost in the translation. I realize that the loss of "exceptional strength" and the addition of Rage make it trickier to port the characters across and you probably handled it the way the "official" rules would suggest to convert them; keep the numbers, drop the percentage for exceptional strength, and then factor in class abilities like Rage. Personally I would have asked, "who's mechanically stronger according to AD&D? Who seems to be stronger in the books?" and then converted them accordingly but that probably isn't an issue that even most Dragonlance fans would care about. I just thought it was worth mentioning. Great job nonetheless.
#12 true_blue Dec 05, 2004 16:53:01	Personally I dont remember anywhere where it was even alluded that Riverwind was strong. I understand that it mentioned he had some muscles, but I'm sure so did Sturm, Tanis, etc. Personally I dont believe that any of the Companions should be within 1 point of Caramon. Its not really a huge deal, doesnt really affect much. I figure Riverwind was given the 18 so that he would have a better to hit and damage. I just dont think any of them were that close, maybe 2 points off. But.. its a minor reflection on a small topic. Also I commend anyone who has to stat out "heroes" and try to make them acceptable to the community.
#13 zombiegleemax Dec 06, 2004 20:40:16	Well, for one thing, if I remember correctly, a 19 Str give you more of a carrying capacity and such, not too much, but it's still more, and that's really where Caramon shined more that Riverwind. Anyway, in the Chronicles, Riverwind was at first described as sickly, and wasn't very strong, but that was because he had just recovered from an illness, which probably drained his Str score. In the Legends, Riverwind is described as incredibly muscular and HUGE, in his brief cameo appearance.
#14 darthsylver Dec 07, 2004 13:45:20	He took a couple months off hunting and making babies with goldmoon in order to bulk up for his special appearance in that movie (uh book :D ). You know, kinda like Brad Pitt did for Troy. :D :D
#15 zombiegleemax Dec 07, 2004 16:39:43	Anyway, in the Chronicles, Riverwind was at first described as sickly, and wasn't very strong, but that was because he had just recovered from an illness, which probably drained his Str score. In the Legends, Riverwind is described as incredibly muscular and HUGE, in his brief cameo appearance. Actually Caeruleus is right. Riverwind is described as pretty muscular in DoAT, but then it states that Caramon's arms were at least three times as big as Riverwind's. Is Caramon's weird drinking index from 1e going to show up in the Legends book? -Angus