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Hamanu's fate

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 04, 2004 1:18:10 I had this going on in my own campaign, and terminusvortexa reminded me of it . . .

I know a lot of folks aren't keen on the idea of Rise and Fall being canon as it appears Hamanu is dead and gone and everything . . .

But why not make it canon? It's all in how you interpret the ending. Suppose he destroys Rajaat for good, finally, and in the process manages to completely remove his own draconic nature, starting over. Say removing his defiler and dragon levels. He either starts over as a 0-lvl human, or simply has his unwanted defiler and dragon abilities gone.

What I've got is that in the big show-down in Ur Draxa things are different and there're a lot fewer SMs present and for the players, it appears all of them die (they don't . . . andropinis goes to the black, tithian [who has become a true SM] is used to fuel the initial creation of the cerulean storm, borys is seemingly killed [though his death activates a psionic seed elsewhere], tec is killed, and hamanu appears to destroy rajaat's physical remains, dying in the process). So it seems that all the big bad guys are mostly dead and gone, their cities freed. Except Abalache-Re is still in Raam as a more powerful dragon (forest maker) and about to defend against Dregoth. Kalid-Ma is about to return and revive Kalidnay. Then Kalak returns to Tyr, stronger than before. Hamanu comes back to Urik after his spiritual journey. Tithian escapes the storm. Y'know, stuff.

Anyway, just wondering if it's really too much of a streth to include the events of rise and fall into canon? I mean you're given the impression that Hamanu is dead, but he doesn't have to be. He could simply return to his city with a different understanding of things and a different source of personal power than he had before.
#2
Pennarin
Dec 04, 2004 2:46:21 Things don't exactly go down the way you recount them Cap'n Nick.

Hamanu becomes the Dragon of Urik, goes after a bit of Rajaat's essence that managed to escape the Hollow and that inhabits a Tyr Storm. He dives into the lava in the Valley of the Cerulean Storm and gather's the stone cyst in which Rajaat's substance lays. He goes deeper into the lava with it.

There, he meets the Spirit of Athas, a kind of global Spirit of the Land. It takes a millenia for the Spirit to scrape off the works of Rajaat from Hamanu (Championhood and dragonhood). In the end it spits out Hamanu in his throne room, alive, and with the mortal human body he had before becoming a Champion (which means Hamanu has lost most of its powers). Hamanu then meets the Spirit of Urik, a Spirit of the Land but for his city. That Spirit has taken his place and ruled the city as an immortal Lion-King since the past thousand years. Then it offers Hamanu the chance to rejoin the only love of its life (there were a couple) that still exists in one form or another, Telhami. He opens up a passageway that allows Hamanu to join her in becoming part of the Spirit of the Land that's occupying Quraite.
Weither this is death or not is philosophy.
#3
Sysane
Dec 04, 2004 7:50:23 Thats the part of that book I dislike most of all. I thought he novel was pretty good up till the last two chapters. I'd ignore that out of everything in those pages and consider the rest possible cannon.
#4
velgost
Apr 06, 2005 20:04:39 Sorry to ressurect a very dead thread but I was wondering what books this is referencing.
#5
Sysane
Apr 06, 2005 20:31:08
Sorry to ressurect a very dead thread but I was wondering what books this is referencing.

Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
#6
lyric
Apr 06, 2005 22:52:41 I could deal with using RaFoaDK as cannon up till the last few chapters.. he was after all, a unique creation, and I think worth his own little chapter.. his abilities and how he is described I think fit Athas very very well.. and if his memory is a little rusty and he doesnt quite match other sources?? oh well :P like that never happened before in a several thousand year old being :P

Mostly I wanna use RaFoaDK because of how it expands the Athasian Epic realm.. 2e rules for dragons and Avangions are very simple and strait forward.. you are a high level wizard and psion with a new body and some innate magical powers.. that's about it... Dragons are war machines and their magic destroy living sentient life too.. Avangions are immune to basically all the advantages a dragon has.. a dragon can't harm an Avangion Physically, and an avangion is likely to have a more potent serene mind, making psionic battle his weapon of choice...

With RaFoaDK, Suddenly there's more than just being a high level psion/wiz with a cool body.. now there are epic level PrC or Templates to be added.. or both.. Champion could be a template and a PrC.. Bestowable by Rajaat but advancable.. Hamanu's ability to overwhelm the other Dragons seems to make him more potent in all the areas they are strong in.. his ability with Sun Magic makes him superior to Sadira in many ways.. (as a true champion of Rajaat should be) it really fleshes out AB characters.. giving more options and ideas.. the Avangions need some boosts, but if we're creative I think we can make up a few things.. ( I still like the concept of an avangion either tapping the life spark of athas, or hooking it up with some spirits of the land ) But that's just me.. Mostly, like a PC with the Dark Lense in his posession ;) I just don't wanna give up the power suggested in the book makes ya feel all powerful with characters like Hamanu under your wing as DM
#7
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Apr 06, 2005 23:54:52 With using elements of RaFoaDK (of which, I'm a big proponent for) I generally consider the last couple chapters of the book as "future history" - in other words, it's not happened yet. Whether or not I let it come to pass in my campaign really depends on how the campaign unfolds (my campaigns are never static things, but living, vibrant worlds where the actions of the players can easily shape the world around them following cause and effect) - as such, who knows? I've had groups actually kill off the remaining Sorcerer-Kings, and even had one group that was trying to redeem one of the Dragon Kings (they never became aware of Kern).
#8
velgost
Apr 07, 2005 17:52:11
Rise and Fall of a Dragon King

Thanks, seems to be a book I missed somewhere... :raincloud
#9
lyric
Apr 08, 2005 23:55:54 I'm curious, is it because hamanu is dead that people don't want RaFoaDK cannon? or is it cause of inconsistencies with other source material? (like that's something new) what's the deal?
#10
dawnstealer
Apr 09, 2005 0:32:05 That's one of the reasons. Also, it's full of inconsistencies beyond the apparent death of Hamanu, which only further complicate a world where inconsistencies practically crippled it. I can't tell you how many arguments I've had on these boards where I will point out one thing in an official sourcebook and someone with the diametrically opposing viewpoint will point to a different sourcebook that says something else completely. Lynn Abbey is an amazing writer and I feel she was the best of the Dark Sun authors (yes, even including Troy). Her problem was that she was left out of the loop and wasn't able to properly research her material.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 04, 2004 1:18:10	I had this going on in my own campaign, and terminusvortexa reminded me of it . . . I know a lot of folks aren't keen on the idea of Rise and Fall being canon as it appears Hamanu is dead and gone and everything . . . But why not make it canon? It's all in how you interpret the ending. Suppose he destroys Rajaat for good, finally, and in the process manages to completely remove his own draconic nature, starting over. Say removing his defiler and dragon levels. He either starts over as a 0-lvl human, or simply has his unwanted defiler and dragon abilities gone. What I've got is that in the big show-down in Ur Draxa things are different and there're a lot fewer SMs present and for the players, it appears all of them die (they don't . . . andropinis goes to the black, tithian [who has become a true SM] is used to fuel the initial creation of the cerulean storm, borys is seemingly killed [though his death activates a psionic seed elsewhere], tec is killed, and hamanu appears to destroy rajaat's physical remains, dying in the process). So it seems that all the big bad guys are mostly dead and gone, their cities freed. Except Abalache-Re is still in Raam as a more powerful dragon (forest maker) and about to defend against Dregoth. Kalid-Ma is about to return and revive Kalidnay. Then Kalak returns to Tyr, stronger than before. Hamanu comes back to Urik after his spiritual journey. Tithian escapes the storm. Y'know, stuff. Anyway, just wondering if it's really too much of a streth to include the events of rise and fall into canon? I mean you're given the impression that Hamanu is dead, but he doesn't have to be. He could simply return to his city with a different understanding of things and a different source of personal power than he had before.
#2 Pennarin Dec 04, 2004 2:46:21	Things don't exactly go down the way you recount them Cap'n Nick. Hamanu becomes the Dragon of Urik, goes after a bit of Rajaat's essence that managed to escape the Hollow and that inhabits a Tyr Storm. He dives into the lava in the Valley of the Cerulean Storm and gather's the stone cyst in which Rajaat's substance lays. He goes deeper into the lava with it. There, he meets the Spirit of Athas, a kind of global Spirit of the Land. It takes a millenia for the Spirit to scrape off the works of Rajaat from Hamanu (Championhood and dragonhood). In the end it spits out Hamanu in his throne room, alive, and with the mortal human body he had before becoming a Champion (which means Hamanu has lost most of its powers). Hamanu then meets the Spirit of Urik, a Spirit of the Land but for his city. That Spirit has taken his place and ruled the city as an immortal Lion-King since the past thousand years. Then it offers Hamanu the chance to rejoin the only love of its life (there were a couple) that still exists in one form or another, Telhami. He opens up a passageway that allows Hamanu to join her in becoming part of the Spirit of the Land that's occupying Quraite. Weither this is death or not is philosophy.
#3 Sysane Dec 04, 2004 7:50:23	Thats the part of that book I dislike most of all. I thought he novel was pretty good up till the last two chapters. I'd ignore that out of everything in those pages and consider the rest possible cannon.
#4 velgost Apr 06, 2005 20:04:39	Sorry to ressurect a very dead thread but I was wondering what books this is referencing.
#5 Sysane Apr 06, 2005 20:31:08	Sorry to ressurect a very dead thread but I was wondering what books this is referencing. Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
#6 lyric Apr 06, 2005 22:52:41	I could deal with using RaFoaDK as cannon up till the last few chapters.. he was after all, a unique creation, and I think worth his own little chapter.. his abilities and how he is described I think fit Athas very very well.. and if his memory is a little rusty and he doesnt quite match other sources?? oh well :P like that never happened before in a several thousand year old being :P Mostly I wanna use RaFoaDK because of how it expands the Athasian Epic realm.. 2e rules for dragons and Avangions are very simple and strait forward.. you are a high level wizard and psion with a new body and some innate magical powers.. that's about it... Dragons are war machines and their magic destroy living sentient life too.. Avangions are immune to basically all the advantages a dragon has.. a dragon can't harm an Avangion Physically, and an avangion is likely to have a more potent serene mind, making psionic battle his weapon of choice... With RaFoaDK, Suddenly there's more than just being a high level psion/wiz with a cool body.. now there are epic level PrC or Templates to be added.. or both.. Champion could be a template and a PrC.. Bestowable by Rajaat but advancable.. Hamanu's ability to overwhelm the other Dragons seems to make him more potent in all the areas they are strong in.. his ability with Sun Magic makes him superior to Sadira in many ways.. (as a true champion of Rajaat should be) it really fleshes out AB characters.. giving more options and ideas.. the Avangions need some boosts, but if we're creative I think we can make up a few things.. ( I still like the concept of an avangion either tapping the life spark of athas, or hooking it up with some spirits of the land ) But that's just me.. Mostly, like a PC with the Dark Lense in his posession ;) I just don't wanna give up the power suggested in the book makes ya feel all powerful with characters like Hamanu under your wing as DM
#7 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Apr 06, 2005 23:54:52	With using elements of RaFoaDK (of which, I'm a big proponent for) I generally consider the last couple chapters of the book as "future history" - in other words, it's not happened yet. Whether or not I let it come to pass in my campaign really depends on how the campaign unfolds (my campaigns are never static things, but living, vibrant worlds where the actions of the players can easily shape the world around them following cause and effect) - as such, who knows? I've had groups actually kill off the remaining Sorcerer-Kings, and even had one group that was trying to redeem one of the Dragon Kings (they never became aware of Kern).
#8 velgost Apr 07, 2005 17:52:11	Rise and Fall of a Dragon King Thanks, seems to be a book I missed somewhere... :raincloud
#9 lyric Apr 08, 2005 23:55:54	I'm curious, is it because hamanu is dead that people don't want RaFoaDK cannon? or is it cause of inconsistencies with other source material? (like that's something new) what's the deal?
#10 dawnstealer Apr 09, 2005 0:32:05	That's one of the reasons. Also, it's full of inconsistencies beyond the apparent death of Hamanu, which only further complicate a world where inconsistencies practically crippled it. I can't tell you how many arguments I've had on these boards where I will point out one thing in an official sourcebook and someone with the diametrically opposing viewpoint will point to a different sourcebook that says something else completely. Lynn Abbey is an amazing writer and I feel she was the best of the Dark Sun authors (yes, even including Troy). Her problem was that she was left out of the loop and wasn't able to properly research her material.