So far, I've decided that the Pholtus religion that the Pale is built on is an almost perfect port for the Catholic church of the Medieval times. The characters can choose whether to be a part of the church or not. So far, one has elected to play a monk with the Vow of Poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds. I've placed his monastery in the mountains above Landrigard. They command a collection of original and copied scriptures used by the church. I've decided that in order to replicate the Catholics use of Latin only for scriptures (going as far as outlawing translations) I would say that all Pholtus scriptures are written in Celestial.
The towns, still filled with refugees, cannot possibly have enough food for them all, so beggers are common, and the flan are all downtrodden and beaten. Conversely, the Church Hierarchy are all clean and studded with jewels and money. Yet they still sell indulgences in the streets of the poor towns, sending all the money back to Wintershiven, where the Supreme Prelate exists. I'm not sure whether or not to keep Ogon Tillit alive, though.
So, now it's on to an actual adventure. There's some interesting things to go into, but I'm not sure how to really involve the PCs. I believe the others will be playing a Barbarian and a Cleric...the barb's player seemed interested in getting more from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Any ideas? Thoughts? Criticisms?
Miles.
Canonfire, ofcourse.
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/index.php
Be sure to check out E. Anondson's Map of the Pale @ Canonfire, too.
http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=336
The Pale Site
http://thepale.org/
Based on that I began to study what was published and what fans imagined about the Theocracy of the Pale. I found some great things regarding Tenh via the Greytalk Archives, at http://www.greycitadel.com/greycitadel/greytalk.nsf.
I differ slightly from your interpretation of the Pale, likely because I've focused elsewhere and have read different texts. To me, the Oeridian faith overall seems similar to the Orthodox religions of Christianity, which were different from the Catholic Church in several ways. What I seized, however, was the term Patriarch, which is presented as the proper title for church leaders of Oeridian faiths. Combining this with the assertion that the worship of Pholtus as a lawful good god predominates in the Flanaess, I think of the Theocracy of the Pale as akin to Spain during its infamous Inquisition.
Fate of Istus and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer indicate that the period of active inquisitorial actions (epitomized by "the Question") originated over two centuries prior to the current era (late 6th century CY) -- evidently as part of the resistance to Nyrond's formal control and then as part of the Theocracy of the Pale's assertion of sovereignity (gained in 450 CY due to the Great Council of Rel Mord).
Moving away from my basic understanding of the Pale (apparently an inversion of that word's meaning historically), I'll begin addressing your details.
IMCs, Celestial wouldn't be the language used by the Church. Instead Old Oeridian would be the language of the "scholastics". My preference is based on an interpretation of the Pale that highlights its official Oeridian history rather than its connection to Pholtus of the Blinding Light. Recall that the LGG inscribed that the religion of Pholtus was the first faith to control the See of Medegia. By the time that faith was displaced (by that of Zilchus), it seems to me that the people who founded the Theocracy of the Pale had established a distinctive dogma that eclipsed simpler ways to follow the One True Path.
Regarding monks in the Pale, I'd link them to old Flan traditions. A fan, Ernest Mueller, once posited a set of Flan-originated orders of monks. Perhaps the native Flan who were colonized by the Aerdi who established the Pale, included followers of Zodal? This religion may have been incorporated by sympathetic worshippers of Pholtus. Hence the obscure monastery in the foothills...
I agree that the imagery of Tenha refugees flooding the northern townships is compelling. Wintershiven in particular should maintain a set of tent city slums around its walls. Amongst these refugees, any number of characters might arise.
In the LG campaign, Ogon Tillit led the initial conquest of Tenh and was wounded both in war and by an assassin's blade. I think he finally died in that campaign. To me, the Theocrat is less important as an individual than as his role. No PC should be allowed anywhere near him until 10th level, IMO.
In fact, if I were to DM a campaign in this region, I'd probably make the Theocrat a perpetually ill being who is barely able to sit upon the Throne of Sun in Wintershiven's Basilica. He might often stare vacantly, as his soul traverses the Outer Planes, resisting the siren calls of demons as he literally attempts to walk the One True Path.
Finishing, from where does the barbarian character hail -- Stonefist? Rhizia? the Rovers of the Barrens?
The characters thus far are Logan (Flan Monk), Aust (Wood Elf Ranger), and Jinx (Flan Spirit Shaman). The interactions of these three have been pretty interesting thus far.
I've made a couple of changes so far. The religion of Pholtus has been split into three basic branches: 1. The Orthodox, which includes the ruling church. This to me seems to be much like the Roman Catholic church. 2. The Progressives, who feel that maybe church/state should be seperate, but still work within the church's rules. 3. The Unorthodox, who, while still part of the Pholtan religion are more open-minded and utilize apocrayphal scriptures. These to me represent the Reformers. To make things more difficult, the utilization of apocrayphal scriptures and the translation of the Holy Word into any other langauge are both crimes punishable by death.
As we were playing, I began to realize that the Flan/Oeridian status line reminds me of the Christianization of Pagans in England. The Flan had their own belief system before the Oeridians claimed this part of their home, and yet they found no reason not to believe in this god, as well. Though not by Greyhawk official canon, but I believe in my game the flan would have taken up the ideas of Pholtus, and yet instead of believing only in him, they added him to their traditional beliefs. Of course, the Inquisition helped drive away their other beliefs, at least in public. Thus, the majority of Unorthodox are Flan, while the main church remains almost entirely Oeridian.
Miles.
Also, I am also finding myself believing that while the Religion of Pholtus is indeed LG, the majority of its representatives in the church that controls the Pale are LN, remaining within one step of their deity, but losing sight of the good. Of course, these members would assume, being the type of people that they are, that their deity was also LN. They color Pholtus to what they do, not the other way around. I'm under the impression that if they were to actually become LE, and thus lose their powers, they would still believe that they were superior, and thus continue to play the role.
Miles.
I don't know if anyone recalls but the Planes of Law boxed set (from Planescape), had an interesting secret story about the third layer of Arcadia (Nemausus) being pulled into Mechanus due to its large number of Harmonium training camps.
In a 2e campaign of mine, I ruled that Pholtus realm was originally on that third layer (thus explaining why he was LG at start). When he was pulled over to Mechanus, he remained in control of his divine realm but was slowly "contaminated" by the LN influence of the plane (thus becoming LN(G)).
I had one LG avatar of Pholtus (created before the planar shift) roaming the planes, trying to escape "reunification" with the god because he knew that would change his alignment. He was constantly trying to reach LG followers of Pholtus on Oerth, hoping one might be powerful enough to do something about the situation (which was pretty much one of the suggested courses of action in the boxed set).
Makes for a nice quest for a (now in 3e) epic cleric or paladin of Pholtus. After all, if enough people manage to shift a layer one way, it should be possible to shift it back, no? ;)
While the LGG used the terms Progressive and Conservative and that the LG campaign has continued this usage, I dislike it greatly because the anachronism is too much. Instead of that binary divide, I'd advise considering how various holy orders competed historically to control the Church. For example, the Jesuits controlled the New World initially and thereby became "too" powerful. Their control was replaced by Franciscans -- putatively because this order would treat the indigenous people better -- saving their souls by converting them. This is just one example of the Catholic Church's rich ecclesiastic history.
Commenting specifically on what Miles suggested and informed by the basic viewpoint I just stated, I caution against constructing the Progressives as favoring a split between church and state. The Pale is a theocracy. To attempt to change that would make one a heretic and traitor.
However, I like the characterization of the Unorthodox. Indeed, Fate of Istus inscribed half-olves and a church of Wee Jas in Wintershiven. Thus, IMC the Theocracy of the Pale is not quite the monotheism that some fans imagine. IMO, even the Pale could not proffer monotheism, since Pholtus is of the (very real) Oeridian pantheon.
Instead, the worship of gods in the Pale is highly regulated. Some faiths (tending to be of lawfully-aligned gods, like Wee Jas) are permitted. Others are proscribed, e.g., most chaotically-aligned gods. While the laws and culture of the elite favors the worship of Pholtus greatly, people of the Pale and immigrants worship other gods, and where those people have power or wealth to begin with, they may find the Pale a viable or profitable place.
I'll note that the Old Faith is disfavored but not officially proscribed IMC (although an Orthodox or Conservative sect might urge its proscription). Adventures might feature the PCs attempting to change this...
Thanks for this thread. It's been good for detailing my ideas about the Pale, and I hope my posts are helpful to you.
My Theocracy is very exclusive to Pholtus. No other religion is even tolerated, as far as churches or ceremonies are concerned, and demihumans are looked down upon and marginalized.
A Palish Reformation would be cool, though. I like the idea.
Gary
Though, in my own campaign; I've added that the ToP has tried to control believers not just through religion-but through breeding. Akin to the Bene Gesserit in Dune.
Miles.
IMC, I follow the '83 boxed set, which holds that "the citizens of the Theocracy of the Pale are primarily hybrids ... Flan/Oeridian. The inhabitants of the Pale are particularly handsome." Catalogue at 13.
However, many of the power elite in the Pale derive from expatriate Aerdi families. When the followers of Pholtus left the See of Medegia en masse, several congregations followed their church leaders, who tended to be (relatively minor, e.g., third or fourth siblings) princelings of Celestial Houses of Aerdi. (Recall that this was during the 4th century CY.)
In the Pale today, some two centuries later, the remaining "Aerdi families" have evolved to control the majority of the seats of the Council of Nine. While there is no formal nobility, in fact the Theocracy's society has features of an oligarchy though these families' existence is cloaked by the rhetoric of meritorious faith in the One True Path (of course!).
Also, informed by recent study of the "disappeared" Latin America,* my version of the Pale downplays "racial" difference in lieu of "political religion." In other words, anyone might be a heretic. One cannot tell by sight. This increases the terror of the Pale, especially during the "heights" (lows) of the Question.
Recall that Gygax set the Flan and Oeridian "phenotypes" as not highly dissimilar. (Indeed by the end of the 6th century CY, no Oeridian phenotype may exist.) Therefore, in my Alternate Oerth, I don't feature "racial" differences in the Pale but instead focus on differences of religion/politics, power/wealth, and urban-rural living.
However, the fall of Tenh changed this somewhat. Prior to its fall, Tehnas who did not worship Pholtus (and a significant though relatively small minority did), were viewed by commoners and priests as haughty heretics, since most Tenhas who visited the Pale were merchants or others of social power. After the fall, however, many Tenhas fled to the Pale (and beyond). Those who did not convert were denied the benefits provided by the Theocracry. Therefore, almost every refugee who remained in the Pale converted though many did not initially change their beliefs. (Cf. the end of Spain's Reconquista, when Jewish people were forced to leave or convert.)
Those Tenha who converted faithfully tend to assimilate well into the Pale's society because [i]racism is not as strong in the Pale and in my version of the Flanaess[/i] as it is on Earth. While xenophobia and ethnocentrism exist, amongst humanity only the Scarlet Brotherhood has completely developed a racist ideology. I'd explain more but am already overlong.
Peace!
* In case one doesn't know about it, in Chile, Argentina, and other parts of Latin America, democracies were overthrown during the 1950s to 1970s by military coups. This was part of the Cold War. The new governments practiced systematic apprehension, torture, and murder of people who were suspected of being against the coups. They were known as "los desapericidos" (the disappeared) because their bodies were never returned to their families. While some people survived torture and incarceration and returned home, many others were murdered but buried in remote places or dropped into the river and ocean.
Right now, I am contemplating the shift of Pholtus himself. It seems to me that after a few thousand innocents are killed during these Inquisitions, the god himself would slide away from his Lawful Good standpoint, and yet still far away from a Lawful Neutral place as well. What happens when it's the god and not the Cleric whose alignment is no longer in line?
I can smell an epic-level quest involving the search and redemption (or death) of Pholtus himself.
Miles.
I imagine a physis-like dimension of existence (or realm of a plane) that manifests the "the Blinding Light" throughout. (This may be the Positive Material Plane.) Pholtus is one point of its entry into other parts of the multi-verse. His existence regulates its entry into other parts of reality, a mystery that is signified by the myths of his ordering of the stars, moon, and sun.
It may be that Pholtus was never entirely good although the Positive Material Plane tends to be associated with goodness and indeed seems positively correlated with the existence of life on Oerth though this is likely not a simple relationship (despite Pholtan dogma!).
Pholtus may be slipping out of his placement at the point of regulation, however, and if true, this fact would have severe ramifications, e.g., an overflowing of Positive material-energy that might leak out over millennia or destroy Pholtus like a blown fuse with a Prime Material result like a supernova.
Celestian might be especially concerned with this imminent(?) threat, so if I designed an adventure to feature it, I'd include NPC patrons of Celestian. To complicate it, certain sects of Celestian might believe that their god could displace Pholtus beneficially...
Since Miles indicated a medieval Catholic mindset for his version of the Pholtan church, it only tracks that none of those who preach strict obedience to Law and the One True Way would want the Martin Luther equivalent to suddenly show up and point out an alternate path.
Wish my gaming group was subtle enough to do something like this; their idea of subtlety is to use flame strike followed by a blade barrier.
Since the government is the church, this is going to get pretty interesting soon. The party itself seems split, with two doing normal investigations and adventures, and two going after the churches themselves. I'm not certain how it's going to play out, actually.
Miles.
In one of the Dungeon magazines is an adventure called "The granite mountain prison" , it's perfect for this.
Powerful necromancers indeed, to be reviving this thread!
Guess that'd be my fault; I just watched the movie last night and wanted to chime in with my thoughts.
Miles.