Wizards has authorized them to make official conversions for 3.5, so it is within their authority to go farther. As of right now They have made 2 MM and a rulebook (classes, a few player races, magic and equipment). They even released a pair of modules, but what is needed is a setting book. The areas of the Tyr region, the city states, the dragons, sorcerer kings, silt sea, all of it...
Look at forgotten realms. they released a corebook for FR that has all the info needed to run the setting. It is within their authority to do likewise. Not to mention the fact that with That final piece done they could easily present their collected works, all of fine quality, to Wizards' editors and more than likely publish them as an official setting.
I'm hoping that you other forum junkies will join with me and beg Athas.org's staff of writers and contributors to do this and give us another set of books that we'll buy...
I don't think it's that Wizards is afraid Darksun won't sell, it's just that they're to preoccupied by the other systems to produce it or manage it. Like how White wolf's D20 bastard son did the remod of Ravenloft. and a 3rd company released dragonlance. These are titles with deep dedicated fans and Dark sun is similiar.
If they came to them with completed works, needing only illustrations and hardback covers, then wizards would jump at it. Hell all the profit none of the work. athas'org would make a nice bit of profit from the revinue and the possession of the shared intellectual property copyrights...We'd get our game with lovely pics...a few new maps,and we'd be up there beside FR and Eberron as modern settings instead of here at the back of the bus in Others.
and think of the Publicity, wizards made a tactical decision not to release some of the less mainstream titles, but handed the shared rights to conversions and production over to the fans. Said fans dove into it and produced a new version of the game that is of such high quality that wizards published it and paid the writers a helfty sum....... The cons would love it. Eberron was made by A fan, Dark sun was brought back by fans, wizards love and respects it's gamers by listening to them and giving them what they want.....Everyone wins.
I'm going to e-mail the Overcouncil at Athas.org and see what their take on the situation is. If fan support can help get this done, let's try to get as many people as possible to respond to this thread to show genuine dedicatd interest in making this come to pass.If you read this and would buy a copy of a published 3.5E Dark Sun setting, say so in your responses, please! Tell your fellow PCs and DMs to respond and do the same! And keep this thread alive to show we're serious!
Myself and my friends are very satisfied with the products released by wizards.com and will continue as clients for the forseable future. We are also very impressed with the quality of work done by the group that is behind the website Athas.org. We would love to use their products in a game but we lack certain things. For example, The setting corebook for the Dark Sun setting, the players guide, and monsters manuals with the themed Dark Sun rules in a published form. We do not have the time and materials needed to print this information out ourselves. AlsoWe do not have the Setting's information readily available for use. The AD&D rules are unavailable for purchase.
I Ask you to please consider commissioning the group of Athas.org to produce the Dark Sun setting and upon the finality of it's production, review this product and if it meets your standards to publish these materials for mass consumption.
I have opened this thread to rally the other customers of Wizards of the Coast to ask this of you as well.
Thank you for your time.
:fight!: :fight!:It has been a while since I last played DS (almost eight years
), but I still remember the distinct feeling the setting evoked in me, and the fun I had all those long nights in the company of dedicated gamers.I would buy, and I know others who would too.
I would not however purchase anything published that was linked to the butchery of the setting put forth by pazio in the dragon magazine issue so recently. In reading the author's comments, I don't blame him for the editing decisions.
That said, I am a cheap bastard so my views may not represent those of a significant amount of possible customers.
:fight!:The main problem is that publishing needs money and experience.
You don't need a publisher, and you don't need money. As for experience...let's see, how many RPGs are put out by groups who have no experience in publishing? What? Almost all of them? Experience...not necessary, either, just the ability to do some homework. That's all most RPG publishers had when they started, including the current crop.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com. The Forge's Publishing forum. Besides the drive to really, actually publish something, and some good questions, that's about all you need.
What about publishing physical books? Beyond paying a printer to bundle up dozens of copies of your work, there are many good Print-on-Demand services available ( http://www.rpgmall.com/pod.php and http://www.lulu.com ).
Tangentially (to my point with the above, not necessarily the thread), since DarkSun is a WotC-owned property, all the above would require one other item: permission from the license holder (in this case, WotC) to publish and produce materials related to said license.
I do not know if Athas.org has the type of license agreement with WotC that would allow them to produce for-pay DS-related books (as opposed to freely available PDFs), but I suspect not. Whether that might change in the future, I do not know, either. How much to buy rights to the license, Jon? Any concrete idea? (I mean beyond: "More than any of us make in a year.")
:fight!:Myself and TerminusVortexa want to get enough players and runners and poster AND SHOPPERS together to tell them that there is reason to have these talks.
if they talk and agree to whatever financial compensation is appropriate then the Group from Athas would finish the job and begin releaseing more products and with financial motivation and backing it would only get better.
And to those who worry about the Dungeon/Dragon articles. Well, We've stated that we prefer the Athas.org works better, haven't we?
:fight!:I'm the founder of the Whitestone Council, the group of Dragonlance fans who worked much like the Athas.org guys do on a site called the Dragonlance Nexus.
It was our dream to see Dragonlance back in print, and that dream came true when Sovereign Press gained the license to do Dragonlance gaming. I've been very lucky to have worked with them ever since.
The success of properties such as Dragonlance and Ravenloft should be seen as precedence for the potential Dark Sun has for success.
There are a couple of avenues that one can take for potential success.
First would be a licensing agreement, ala Dragonlance and Ravenloft. I'm not sure if Dark Sun could be seen as a property to bring in enough cash flow for a 3rd party company, but it is definitely worth a shot.
Another idea would be for WotC to approach their old settings differently, and just do the one-shot book. Go for the idea that the one-shot is a test book, to get a feel for how many people would buy future Dark Sun products.
And of course, we could hope for Athas.org winning the lottery and buying the intellectual rights to Dark Sun. ;)
Whatever the case, I cast my vote to bring Dark Sun back. It's definitely a setting like no other, and deserves its own sourcebook.
Best of luck!
Dark Sun 4 Life ;)
Seriously, Dark Sun was always my favorite setting; and kept me into D&D for years and years. Can't even count the # of times I've played campaigns for DS....endless.
So; if there is any chance of it coming back for 3.5; email me and let me know what I can do!
I've posted my response; but if there's another thread somewhere...or people I need to email and give my support to; just holler and I will.
:fight!:Dark Sun 4 Life ;)
Have you been playing too much GTA? Grove St baby.
On topic: I would definately buy any official DS material released. It was always one of my favorite settings. Honestly, I thought we would get some official support after the Thri-Kreen and Half-Giant showed up in the XPH, but sadly no. Anything released I would buy day-one.
You talk about the costs of printing it all out, and yes, that gets pretty expensive, so if you wanted a hardcopy, you are better of buying the book, which still won't get you the conversions of the adventures or all that which will take the majority of the effort, you are stuck doing that whether you buy the book or not. thats why i said it myself, its a question of whether you want to pay that extra $25 (or $35 if you set the cost of the book at $40) for the the conveniece of getting the crunch provided for free by athas + all the fluff in the dark sun box set (and maybe a small amount from other old books, but this is likely to be negligable) + a couple of cool new illustrations, all in one handy hardcopy.
Personally I don't print out entire .pdfs, nor do I need to, if I don't have someones laptop nearby, it's a simple case to print of a couple of pages of notes on whatever is confusing or will be nessecary for that session.
EDIT: That said, I would pay for genuinely new dark sun books if they were of a deent standard (ie adventures, or books detailing stuff not adequately covered in 2e, or incredibly crunch heavy stuff that hadn't already been re-released for free)
I would definitly buy any DS product that would be published =)
Here is my counterpoint to your argument-If they publish a 3.5E Dark Sun Campaign Setting in Hardcover, I hereby give my word to ANYBODY WHO WANTS IT that I will make my 3.5E conversions available for EVERY SINGLE ADVENTURE MADE FOR 2ND ED. DARK SUN EVER. If I can get permission, I'll make the whole converted adventures available. If not, I'll make LEVEL ADJUSTED,ECL BALANCED , COMPLETELY CONVERTED STATS FOR EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER IN THOSE ADVENTURES AVAILABLE TO ANYBODY WHO WANTS THEM. I ALREADY HAVE THEM, MINUS THE ADVANCED BEINGS, WHICH I WILL HAVE AS SOON AS THEY ARE RELEASED. Any other weak spots in our armor, or are you ready to sign on now?:fight!:
:fight!:It's just not. The internet is not representative of a large enough section of the buying public -- even among gamers -- to make it happen. It is percieved as an empty data source, rightly or wrongly, because anyone can come onto a forum and say anything.
So, while your fervor is appreciated, it is misdirected.
That said, here is the silver lining: if you are really serious about this, here's how to redirect that fervor into a more successful strategy.
First off, forum posting isn't going to do it. What you need is a cohesive petition that can be e-mailed or sent to the company. You can try here: http://www.petitiononline.com/petition.html You then put a link to the petition in the signature of your e-mails and forum posts (here and elsewhere).
Second, you need people to print it off (so encourage them to do so) to get their off-line friends to sign it. Have groups mail these printed copies directly to the correct department or person at Wizards of the Coast: that is, the department that makes the decisions about these things, or someone who has the ear(s) of those who make the decisions.
And keep in mind you will, at minimum, need a few hundred signatures to make Wizards sit up and listen to your request seriously, for what I hope are obvious reasons. "Number of hits" on a thread isn't going to do it.
Now, this is going to require you to do a little homework, to get a name and an address; and you will have to write the petition. For this, get a friend who is an English major to help you, because you will want it to be written clearly and thoughtfully.
These things (physically mailed copies of the petition; the letter, whether e-mailed or postal, being sent to the right person/place; and clear, proper spelling and grammar) will provide far more weight with a company than statements made on an internet forum, no matter how honest and serious those statements are.
That's all I got. Get to it!
:fight!:I also must insist that we keep things civil, mybrainhurts brings up a few valid points. The hardcopy Setting would, in his eyes, require more information and more little bonuses than we'd be able to find with the previous editions books. I believe that a thorough conversion would do so. in 2nd Forgotten realms had a massive horde of books for the setting. in 3rd the released a 300+ page book with enough to run a game anywhere, then released even more in a couple of books on magic as well as some excellent modules.
This, I believe, is what we'd get. All those rulebooks and map books and class books and psi books of 2nd Dark Sun will be merged into a single book, then the secondary releases of modules and books We may not even think about could be released as deman increases.
If I understand the situation, publication would only require an agreement between the Athas.org staff and WOTC regarding content and royalties. I can't see the Overcouncil having any objection to publication, as Jon's post on this thread indicates, so all that is left is for us, the fans, to convince WOTC to do this.
Correct, we are very positively inclined towards having our works published.
And a note, my gaming circle would probably buy about 30 copies of the DS 3.5 Core Rules, not to mention all the other athas.org products.
I think Darksun needs something more along the lines of this. Something a little more tangible than just online support. Don't get me wrong, it all starts there, here, but if you can get your hobby store management (your community rep) asking just the right questions to Wizards' reps, then you've done more than the average fan.
Raid your hobby stores, throw up ads for Darksun playtesting (the material is there. I have the downloaded Darksun 3 myself. You just have to arrange a game or two using this new version), and get whatever support you have to come here and flood the boards with support, write the company, or ask the (hobby store) management to help with the cause by asking other retailers if they're witnessing similar circumstances within their stores. Of course there will be, because you and your team would have pasted that place as well... ;) And if there is enough support with them, then your cause just went professional.
The people behind Darksun 3 can send copies of that download to whatever 3E licenced company that they can think, if not all, and hope that it'll draw enough interest that it'll raise an eyebrow and hope that the cause will shift hands. Just make sure you cross your t's and dot your i's.
Of course, this might mean a complete changing of the guard, but with the setting in mind...
Pipe dream?
Never know 'til you go.
I hope it works out.
I'm a sale.
If we, the PCs and DMs convince WOTC to do this, Dark Sun will no doubt be developed quicker , as well, because it would not be reliant on the generous charity of time from the Athas.Org staff, they would have a financial incentive, which is only fair. I can't speak for them, but I think it's almost guaranteed thet we'd have a complete setting to work with, hardcover and bound, faster than anyone would expect, if the Athas.org staff finally got rewarded for all their hard work. They deserve it. We deserve a published campaign setting, and are willing to pay for it. All that is left is to make our voice heard loud enough to get WOTC to do it.
I can only speak for myself, but I would definitely be willing to work full-time developing Dark Sun material either on a project by project basis, or an extended contract if I were paid to do it. And yes, that would mean a faster development rate.
BRING BACK DARKSUN
BRING BACK DARKSUN!BRING IT BACK!!!BRING IT BACK!!!!!
Seriously- I would buy ANY Darksun publication in 3.5. The computer system is nice but I am forced to use 1960's phone lines and modems (I live in Vermont) and it is near impossible to download anything with some size to it. A published book would be awesome.
As for art- I would gladly lend a hand for free.
Andrew Farrell aka megamania
Hey if you're willing to do all that, then I support it, but don't assume that one should know all that when debating the viability of a dark sun 3.5 hardcopy, as it isn't exactly implicit in the notion of ressurecting (officially) a campaign setting that someone is going to do all this, and you just defeated your own purpose in regards to the printing out a metric assload of paper, as this kind of stuff is the stuff that would most need to be on hand during a game and is also the stuff most likely to be released as a web supplement.
Although one point that we seem to have overlooked, which means I probably would buy the DS3.5 handbook is that if it were published proffessionally, I doubt the crunch would remain online for free as the current 3.0 crunch does, and before you cry SRD, think about it, theres no srd for any alternate campaign settings whether they be 3rd party (ravenloft) or official (forgotten realms).
'The Overcouncil'
The Overcouncil is an administrative organ consisting of four members responsible for running the athas.org organization. The Overcouncil oversees administration and membership of the Senate, the Paper Nest and the Templarate. General inquiries can be sent to [email]overcouncil@athas.org[/email]. For topics regarding specific areas of administration, please contact the relevant overcouncil member.
Chris Flipse (flip@athas.org)
Public Relations Contact
IT Director
Gabriel Cormier (gab@athas.org)
Legal Contact
Product Manager
Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Human Resources Manager
Marketing Director
Art Director
Peter Nuttall (brax@athas.org)
Setting Specialist
'The Senate'
The Senate is the athas.org product development oversite group. The senate decides which projects and products are to be developed and appointed project group leaders. Inquiries, suggestions and feedback on new or existing products can be sent to [email]senate@athas.org[/email].
Chris Flipse (flip@athas.org)
Gabriel Cormier (gab@athas.org)
Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Nels Anderson (feebles_@hotmail.com)
Paul Liss (paul@genome.wisc.edu)
Peter Nuttall (brax@athas.org)
William Kendrick (eyeoftheghost@yahoo.com)
'The Templarate'
The Templarate is a body of rules experts responsible for the game-mechanic aspects of further Dark Sun 3 development, and consists of six seperate Bureaus, each responsible for a specific area of design.
Templarate Coordinator: Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Bureau of Classes
Chris Flipse (flip@athas.org)
Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Nels Anderson (feebles_@hotmail.com)
Paul Liss (paul@genome.wisc.edu)
Bureau of Equipment
Andrej Damjanovic (andrejd@EUnet.yu)
Nels Anderson (feebles_@hotmail.com)
Roger Burgess III (rburgess3@yahoo.com)
Bureau of Feats and Skills
Andrej Damjanovic (andrejd@EUnet.yu)
Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Bureau of Monsters and Templates
Gabriel Cormier (gab@athas.org)
Mark Hope (logarium@yahoo.co.uk)
Nels Anderson (feebles_@hotmail.com)
Nathan Guest (nightcrawler@crimsonsun.org)
David Schartz (davidschwartznz@yahoo.com.au)
Mike Ring (michaelring@comcast.net)
Bureau of Spells and Powers
Andrej Damjanovic (andrejd@EUnet.yu)
Nels Anderson (feebles_@hotmail.com)
Paul Liss (paul@genome.wisc.edu)
Bureau of World Rules
Chris Flipse (flip@athas.org)
Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Paul Liss (paul@genome.wisc.edu)
Bureau of Epic Rules
Paul Liss (paul@genome.wisc.edu)
Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Chris Flipse (flip@athas.org)
Clifford Hill (darkhelm@hotpop.com)
Doug Hagerty (sekerra@verizon.net)
Nels Anderson (feebles_@hotmail.com)
'The Paper Nest'
The Paper Nest is a body composed of Dark Sun campaign setting experts that reviews the work of the Templarate to guarantee it corresponds with the thematics and flavor of the original Dark Sun setting.
Chris Flipse (flip@athas.org)
Gabriel Cormier (gab@athas.org)
Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Peter Nuttall (brax@athas.org)
William Kendrick (eyeoftheghost@yahoo.com)
We The Undersigned, wish to state that this petition is a sincere request that you release an updated merchandise selection to the Dark Sun Campaign Setting, a product that we believe is still quite viable and has great potential to provide you with sizeable amount of revenue.
-this is the petition I'll be posting on http://www.petitiononline.com/petition.html but only if the wording is acceptable. comments?
please have friends visit the petition if they agree. if you wish to go out and get signatures. only go to gamers, gameshops, comic stores and rpg clubs. please do not seek the sigs of those who do not or would not care. we want the gamers to show a united statement not to just collect sigs. when you feel you have aquired enough sigs by your count please mail them to me. i'll give my addie on the petition site.
(I don't mean to say it sounds like the last sort at all -- I think it's very good. I'm just saying there's intention, but not enough direction to make a perfectly clear case. If you do not wish to mention anything like this in the initial petition, then by all means, disregard this post. I don't have my finger on the Athas.org pulse at all, as I'm a very recent signup (helped with the power conversions) and just another psi-freak with fond memories of old Dark Sun.)
Dark Sun 3.5
In a big book i can buy
Go, Dark Sun, Go!
:fight!:I helped with the core rules some as well as was working on monsters by myself for a year to a year and a half, accepting contributions from various people mentioned in the credits and tweaking them as they needed. After a year and a half of working by myself, a bureau was finally created and I received help in getting this product out.
I haven't contributed much since the various edits since then, mainly because I hate editing, but I have also done various things on my website http://www.crimsonsun.org which needs to be updated badly. One of those projects is the NPC conversion project which will be dubbed Faces of Athas once the athas.org site is ready for said project.
I also plan to a project on the villichi race, defining them more and such, as well as a project on life-shapped items and the mechanics for them.
I would love to see Dark Sun become a hard bound book again and would love to also be part of the design team that gets it there. I've been running Dark Sun as a DM since it first came out, getting the first box set as a birthday present, and it was love at first site. I've been gaming for about 12 years now, and running Dark Sun has been a good hunk of 10 years of the 12 total gaming years I have invested in.
I can only speak for myself, but I would definitely be willing to work full-time developing Dark Sun material either on a project by project basis, or an extended contract if I were paid to do it. And yes, that would mean a faster development rate.
Same here, and I would love it.
I could quit my current full time job and still go to school and still have time for designing DS.
That being said, I, among many others, who have never played the original 2nd edition Dark Sun, would be willing to purchase and utilize any and ALL released 3rd edition Dark Sun material.
It is with this that I state my hope that Dark Sun would live again, in published form.
Get the petition up so I can sign it.
:fight!:Wotc (Hasbro) ****ed up too much Ad&d world to let them touch Dark sun. Remember that there goal is to make profit, so if they see that adding gun in Dark sun will make more people buying the book ,they will add guns. I just give a stupid exemple, but my ponit is that there designing of material are lead by a search to reach more costumer as possible. When something is underground (like athas.org), it have more quality. Remember how TSR ****ed up DS back in the day. I shiver at the tought of WOTC releasing other DS product. Im sure it will suck. Just look at the Dragon magazine version of Dark sun by Paiso.
We dont need Dark sun book that we will pay 20$ to have.
Instead, we could make a paypal thing to send donation to the team of Athas.org with a council of regulation to get sure that the funds are going into Dark sun and not personal gain.
As for myself, I dont really care, since here in my group of player, we use an alternate rule of 2 edition and I have most of the old book (got at a used store) and the rest, I have it in .pdf format. Also, in our campaign, we dont use the Prism pentad event, we make our own dark sun story and events by the actions of the character we play. And since I dont care what happens to Dark sun story line,since I almost dont use it anyway, I will sign your petition, just to be nice.
That was just my opinions btw.
Sorry for my bad english.
My name is Jaan, i've been a GM and PC since 1988. I'd purchase a re-write of the darksun books in hardcopy if the product had been co-ordinated by the orginal authors and used athas.org's stuff as a base.
Over the last decade i've work in universities and sporting organisations and have had some exposure to copyright and liscening laws for intellectual property. My main area's of expertise and sports psychology and exercise physiology - not sure how handy they would be to the whole exercise of getting the material into print, but i am a handy proof-reader as i regually mark and evaluate undergraduates students assignments as part of the marking process (sigh) which consumes so much of an academics life!
So in summary, bring it on!
Jaan
-X
This petition is directed to Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. We the undersigned make the following statement; that we wish you to consider contacting the previously designated individuals, all connected with the website http://www.athas.org,and begin discussions into contracting them with the official liscensed production of your property, identified as the Dark Sun setting of your Dungeons and Dragons Role Playing Game, and that you also consider a moderate level of recognition of the following individuals for their tireless efforts in keeping interest in your game setting alive among your client base.
Chris Flipse (flip@athas.org)
Gabriel Cormier (gab@athas.org)
Jon Sederqvist (jon@athas.org)
Peter Nuttall (brax@athas.org)
We The Undersigned, wish to state that this petition is a sincere request that you review the situation regarding the Dark Sun setting. We believe that when you do so you will come to the conclusion that to release an updated merchandise selection to the Dark Sun Campaign Setting, a product that we believe is still quite viable and has great potential to provide you with sizeable amount of revenue, would be the right course of action and that the Athas.org group would be your best choice for a production staff.
What I think makes this an especially good idea is that the pdf's that athas.org puts out already look professional. All that would need to be done is to create an account at one of the on-demand printers and upload the books.
I read a previous post in this thread implying that athas.org does not have permission to publish anything in physical form. If this is that case, you can pretty much ignore my idea
.Now, where is that petition to sign...
Bring on the shelf-friendly material!
Frédérick Dagenais A.K.A. PB
Release Dark Sun for 3.5 D&D: the petition is alive
:fight!:
:fight!:
:invasion:
;)
A little bit of a story. The last one I out on this thread I think is Dregoth taking over the world and having his templars drink and pillage.
:fight!:
:fight!:I really liked the Darksun concept and was a massive fan of the orginal 5 books even more so than the original gaming materials. I would certainly purchase a darksun 3.5 hardback book - especially as many of the concepts have filtered in 3.5 edition anyway -especially the whole Sorceror metamorphising into 'dragon' feel.
I was pleased to see Ravenloft kept alive and would like to see a similar agreement carried out on Athas. I'll now pop over and sign the pertition.