, and Elminster is like a mosquito compared to even the least Dragon Kings 
. Psionics isn't prevalent in the Realms, so they wouldn't have much of a defense against that. He's already got Templars, so inspiring worship by pretending to be a god wouldn't be hard. And the Cult of the Dragon would be weak in the knees with joy, what with their "And the Dead Dragons shall rule the World" prophecy that is the whole basis for their Cult! :fight!: 
:fight!: 2). He wants revenge on all the liddle peeple who hurt him (ie. other SKs).
3). The other worlds have lots of gods already. Lots and lots of them, all perfectly able to paste his skinny hide all over the planes with their eons of divine experience if he is dumb enough to mess with their pet worlds. On Athas he would be the head (and only) honcho.
4). He is insane.
Just a guess, mind you ;)...
Or something along those lines.... :P
And, definetely , he wants revenge
And, on Athas, he would indeed be Head Honcho
But , I if all else fails, the way I understand it, with Hamanu currently occupied being cleansed by the Spirit of Athas, the only real contenders for power on Athas would be Lalali-Puy
, Nibenay, :raincloud , and Oronis :angelhide . Oh, and Daskinor
. Lalali-Puy would be like a 30 second fight, Nobody would help her. Nibenay may be a little tougher, but he's nowhere near as powerful as Dregoth. Daskinor's a big pansy compared to all of the above mentioned, and too crazy to put a concerted effort up. Oronis would definetely get no help from anyone. And the whole Dead Lands population would probably beg to be annexed. So after he conquered the whole joint, would he still stay there, or go elsewhere, say, to Eberron, where there really are no gods? Or find a world unpopulated by anybody, like that planet that used to worship Orcus in the Planescape "Dead Gods" adventureadn have all of the Dray immigrate, thus establishing a worship base on a planet where he could recieve the energy of belief, and have, say, Mon Adderath stay as his viceroy on Athas. Or, and here's the real kicker, set up shop in Sigil, since he's not a real god, but is just about as powerful, and throw down with the Lady of Pain for control of the City! I think he's just about the only one who could take the spiky biznitch down! :fight!: :fight!:Dregoth has a goal. He wants to be the first god on Athas, not just a god. There ain't too many lesser gods that are not part of a patheneon. I doubt that Dregoth would work well inside an existing hierachy. Unless of course you see him making the jump from super-powerful immortal to greater god in one step.
Here is a list of things that popped into my mind.
1)None of the other SKs aware Dregoth is alive why squander that advantage? Why risk a second assasination by the remaining SK's. They already killed him once they would be more through if they had to band together and do it again.
2)SKs have had millenia to set up defenses and trapped for anyone who came to get them at there base of operations. So you can't just show up at there house kill them.
3) Being immortal allows you think long term. Step 1- travelling the planes for millenia, learning everything there is to learn about godhood. Step 2- Become Athas' first god. Step 3- Turn population into Dray. Step 4- plan and execute a planetary invasion of . Step 5- Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no small worlds left or until powerful worlds or gods might think about trying to stop you. Step 6 Bide your time consolidate your power base. Wait for them to forget about you.
4) Dregoth doesn't have many high powered servants, like Mystra or Torm or even a powerful group like all the epic level meat heads in Waterdeep. Sure he could kick Elmienster's wrinkled butt but he may problems with the other 500 epic level butts that show up when he invades there planet.
Dregoth' s biggest fear is probably an alliance forming against him. So I think his plans would be very methodical, creeping along never showing that he was at the helm. He probably learned the lesson from Rajaat. Look what happen to him once his true plans were decovered. If your immortal, it is best to move slowly, don't let your enemies know that they are in your sights until it is too late.
1). He is insane.
2). He wants revenge on all the liddle peeple who hurt him (ie. other SKs).
3). The other worlds have lots of gods already. Lots and lots of them, all perfectly able to paste his skinny hide all over the planes with their eons of divine experience if he is dumb enough to mess with their pet worlds. On Athas he would be the head (and only) honcho.
4). He is insane.
Just a guess, mind you ;)...
Nice guess. ;)
That pretty much sums it up for me, heh.
As long as nobody knows that Dregoth is even still alive (In a manner of speaking), he has the advantage of surprise.
Also, in response to this thread's topic, Dregoth isn't stupid for not going for the other worlds. In my opinion, he's homesick. He wants to conquer the one place he failed to conquer so many ages ago.
It is the homeland of himself and his species of Dray, and I doubt that he's just going to accept that he was defeated and move on. Pride is usually one of the main factors of evil super arch-villains.
So, how would I rewrite the backstory of the module to accomodate the alternate cosmology, as it creates a very problematic kink in the functioning reality of the adventure?
Dregoth, searching the shadows of Athas for millenia, has discovered knowledge in some of those reflections that does not exist on Athas as it does in those shadows. From these many pieces, he has put together the spell that will allow him to divert the elemental conduits that power Athas. Rather than connecting to the world, they will connect to him.
As such, he will become the focal point for all the elements, he will blend with the living elements, be filled with their power, and be the sole conduit of their might upon Athas. He will become the blazing heart of Athas, from whom all bounty, even all reality, will be shaped and dispensed. He will not become a god; he will become God. Such are the dreams of madmen.
:fight!:
:fight!:Lalali-Puy would be like a 30 second fight, Nobody would help her. Nibenay may be a little tougher, but he's nowhere near as powerful as Dregoth.
Lalali-Puy with the Dark Lens would easily win this 30 second fight, and she would need nobody to help her. Nibenay with the Dark Lens would be even tougher.
Or, and here's the real kicker, set up shop in Sigil, since he's not a real god, but is just about as powerful, and throw down with the Lady of Pain for control of the City! I think he's just about the only one who could take the spiky biznitch down! :fight!:
Die, Vecna, die!
:fight!:
:fight!:I think Dregoth has spent a his two thousands years wisely preparing himself - and yes, i agree that he has tunnel vision but sometimes that's what's required to see a momentous task through.
His plans to become a god may work.
However, i'd say that for it to work he'd need to assimilate a powerful elemental being (no easy feat). As i've stated before, i think the elemental votices (if you take them to be sentient creatures) were proto-gods. I base this assumption on fact that many anchient earth-cultures had thier 'eldest' gods with cetain 'elemental' characteristics (god of fire, water, wind etc) or even legends of creatures before the gods with the power of gods (titans etc).
I think Dregoth know's he can succeed in becoming the first god, but is blinded, blinkeded to some of the peripheral issues that confront him.
Firstly, if it doesn't, will he be happy to be a limted deity, with only the domain of the specific elemental he is most affliated with?
Thirdly, if he suceeds, it's bound to send a shockwave through the multiverse that all dieties will instantly 'hear' sort of like a mental alarm that says "hey, a new world just opened up..."
If he's aware of that, he must have a plan to face the other godlings that will arrive the usurp his control, or if not, he's in for a very rude shock. Maybe deep down he knows he can never become a true god, but will settle for enough power to rival one, and total domination of a world, instead....
Personally, i like the whole idea of him partially suceeding and having an advenutre based around the elements fighting back to gain control....
It still doesn't solve the biggest issue though: what is the grey? it stops divine power (so is anti-immortal) but it's hostile to mortal life as well (so it's anti-life energy as well). Probably best discussed in another thread, but it's the single issue that Dregoth is most blind to. If he figurer out what created the grey, he's halfway to removing it
:D I think the Grey is somehow related to the energies that the Lady of Pain uses to keep the gods out of sigil. Maybe one generates the other. Or it could be a matter of planar geometry. As in, maybe in metaphysical terms Athas lies directly above the spire that Sigil sits above. Athas could also be protected by the grey for that very reason, as in by divine decree, no diety may set foot there, because of it's centrallized location. And so by a concordant agreement on the part of all existing dieties, the Gray exists.A part of the prime material plane where the local density of the ethereal plane is so high, the conduits for divine energy just get snuffed out.This is only one possibility, and I have other thoughts on it as well. The other, most remote possibliy is that Athas lies on the other side of the Far Realm, a realm even the gods fear, and the Grey is the dimensional barrier between Athas and the horrible realities of that realm, at the cost of divine power being choked off before it can arrive or leave. Small price to pay, compared to getting invaded by THAT place!!
Dregoth, searching the shadows of Athas for millenia, has discovered knowledge in some of those reflections that does not exist on Athas as it does in those shadows. From these many pieces, he has put together the spell that will allow him to divert the elemental conduits that power Athas. Rather than connecting to the world, they will connect to him.
As such, he will become the focal point for all the elements, he will blend with the living elements, be filled with their power, and be the sole conduit of their might upon Athas. He will become the blazing heart of Athas, from whom all bounty, even all reality, will be shaped and dispensed. He will not become a god; he will become God. Such are the dreams of madmen.
Works for me.
/me takes notes
As long as nobody knows that Dregoth is even still alive (In a manner of speaking), he has the advantage of surprise.
Except the remaining SKs do in fact know. Source: Dregoth Ascending.
(ie: that doesn't tell me anything. I'd be pleased if you would expand into reasons for your dislike of the suggestion?)
I have even adapted the "Inner Planes" book to suit my Athas better, drawn a map of all the Planes and their relation to each other. Inner Planes, Prime Material Plane, the outer Grey, the inner Grey, the Back and the Hollow is all athas needs IMO.
I was just kidding around,man (
)But seriously, the reason I don't like the idea of a cosmologically independent Athas is because it goes against a lot of the material published in the setting.
There is at least 1 reference, sometimes very subtle and hard to root out, to outer planar connections in 3/4 of the released material. Things like specific references to summoned fiends, the Planar Gate, and even a complete description of the Grey and exactly how it functions, including percentage chances for making it through to the planes beyons. Plus, there's references to Athas all over the Planescape setting, and a whole Athasian city (Kalidnay) in Ravenloft. Even in Thri-Kreen of Athas, there's a description of a battle between some Kreen and an Osyluth, complete with needing a magic weapon to strike him. Plus , it gives the characters something to strive for, as escaping Athas or finding powerful artifacts in the Outer Planes to help them bring down the SKs. Aside all that, certain adventures ,like Black Spine (One of my personal favorites) can't work at all without an outer planar connection and links to the Astral. Even the psionic nature of Athas itself is due to other-planer influence (as referenced in Black Spine, the psi-bomb weapon detonated there in the Githyanki/Githzerai wars) . It just seems to me to really take a lot of the flavor out of the campaign to close off Athas to the universe at large.
:fight!:
:fight!:Or, and here's the real kicker, set up shop in Sigil, since he's not a real god, but is just about as powerful, and throw down with the Lady of Pain for control of the City! I think he's just about the only one who could take the spiky biznitch down!
:heehee That is one of the silliest things I've ever read on the boards.The Lady would maze him in a second if he tried to take over Sigil. Or she would simply flay him into little itty-bitty bits. Or She would beat him in one of a myriad of other ways. The Lady is impossible to beat in Sigil.
:fight!:
:fight!:Man I'm so glad that there is no Sigil in my Athasian Universe. :D
You know, I believe that they wouldn't fight, both are soooo cute, like Pokemon, they would fall in Love with each other and start a Cleansing War against all those Gods, which they can only win :P .
.Ich hab sogar ein paar Teile durchgespielt, ist anspruchsvoller als es scheint ;).
First, you have to understand that "only kidding" does not translate well (in most cases, "at all") to a textual medium. Second, I wasn't upset, if you were in fact concerned that I was, I only wanted more information.
That said, regarding the portion of your argument dealing with the problems created with existing material/events by removal of the standard cosmology: have your read the stuff I've written about the Black and the shadow planes floating around Athas? Because (obviously) I think it deals quite well the problems you mention.
If you haven't, you should probably go read through that now (just use the search feature).
Now, many of the problems which could be written off as misinterpretations by mistaken scribes (that excuse has certainly been used before), and as you can see from the alterante material, many situations can be very easily refitted to the seperate cosmology so that they continue to function as written (for example, Black Spine: the githyanki are easily written as a race hailing from one of the planes floating in the Black (one of Athas' shadows) which is comparable in physical description to the Astral Plane (without being such)).
Here's my argument: Athas used to have to be a part of "the multiverse" of D&D worlds. The previous writers were trying to fit the world into the existant D&D cosmology, which (at the time) was considered to bind all the big D&D properties together (with the exception of Birthright and Mystara). So they were constrained to making Athas fit into this scheme, much as Athas' dwarves had to fit into the scheme of other D&D dwarves.
It no longer needs to be constrained by this limitation. New times bring changes to the old rules, such as dwarves and halflings suddenly being able to be wizards (and able all along, it "turns out").
This particular system-based limitation -- a required cosmological binding to the other game properties -- is no longer a marketing/production-required element, much as the limitation on dwarves and halflings no longer exists. So, I say, let us get away from the restriction and create something that is instead an integral part of Athas' concept and character, rather than based on cross-marketing strategies that were not created for and have nothing to do with the internal themes or realities of Athas itself.
Why? I believe very strongly that tying Athas to that destroys it much the same way that tying the world of the WoT to the D&D cosmology would wreck the WoT world, or tying the Birthright setting (Cerillia) would wreck that world: these events would sacrifice the unique independence of each setting's existance as a fictional reality.
What the heck does that mean?
It means the universe of the X-Men is not part of the D&D cosmology. Tolkien's Middle-earth is not part of the D&D cosmology. More than that, they are not a part of one another's cosmology, either, or anything else's cosmology. They are entities unto themselves, as is the world of any book or series of fiction.
Now, I am perfectly aware they could be attached together (so anyone squirming, just stop), but that observation misses the point of this particular problem. They are not so for good reason: they are different, uniquely concieved fictions, with their own independent character and substance.
To explain this to non-Literature majors: remember how the latest version of "The Outer Limits" television show tried a couple of times to tie all the various stories of its seasons together into one big story? Remember how badly those tie-ins always sucked? Part of the reason was that they destroyed the unique seperateness, the individuality of each individual show in the season, and each show's message. They globbed the stories together in ways each story was not meant to exist, and as seperate entities existing with "something to say" quite literally unwrote them in an attempt to make something "bigger" that did not previously exist, and bore no thematic relation to one another.
It diluted the message of the individual shows, the little "story universe" of each show, by trying to make them all one world, despite that they were not built with that sort of cohesion or over-arching plot in mind.
In this manner, the reason I do not like Athas existing as part of the D&D "Great Wheel" multiversal cosmology has to do with the internal integrity in a work of fiction. Note that I do not mean "cause & effect" integrity, or "obeying internal causality" integrity. What I am referring to is the structure and character of a written work...its purpose and being, so to speak.
When writers write they create worlds; they create worlds to tell particular stories. In a sense, those worlds exist solely to tell this specific story that the writer is putting down at this specific time, and everything in them is geared towards reinforcing and revealing that story and its themes.
All the writer's writing and storycrafting goes towards telling that story, that is their goal. Not towards making that world real or consistent -- which they may do as well, but this is always secondary to the main goal of telling the story. Consistency, believability, is supportive of that goal rather than a primary goal. To say "something", to tell the specific story happening right now, is the primary goal of a fiction writer.
Each world is thus crafted to display a particular story, each setting exists solely as a place to tell that story, to highlight and resonate with its themes. Take the fictional world out of that context, out of that specific story, and it stops being quite so interesting, quite so engaging. This is why worlds from works of literature rarely work well as campaign settings, and cause frustration with many groups: because the setting has told its story already. How can you have another story in it now?
The problem is that gamers think worlds and/or settings are simply collections of facts and events, "just" locations where "things" happen...but they are not. A fictional setting is an entity unto itself, as much a part of the story it is involved in as the character is: in fact, the setting IS a character. And just like a character in a fictional work, they have personality, theme, and meaning.
(Tangentially, this is part of what makes gamers the worst fiction writers: because they know absolutely nothing about story, even though they may know everything about cause & effect and detail. They have numerous bad habits and ruinous beliefs/misunderstandings about how to craft and what makes up stories to unlearn in order to learn to write well. Tangent over.)
Now, this is important (so everyone please save your refutations until you absorb this statement, or go back and delete them if you have started responding before reading this far and considering): obviously in talking about worlds created for purposes of gaming, we cannot talk about "the story" (per se).
A shared setting is not necessarily tied to a specific story (as most might use the term). However, we can still talk about character and theme when we talk about a game setting.
Simply, to put Athas into a shared cosmology makes it lose its seperate character, even changes its theme, because the setting becomes part of something else, part of a larger character (the multiversal entity of 2nd Edition D&D). Rather than a seperate entity, rather than a character unto itself, its theme changes because the points of reference change.
Suddenly, the Black, the Elemental planes, and all the other things are referenced not to Athas and its themes, but to the planes of other worlds and the larger (multiversal) setting as a whole. You can't talk solely about Athas with them, becuase they will always reference other entities that have nothing to do with Athas. This is a bad thing, so I'll say it again: you can no longer use these things to say specific things about Athas, as lens directed towards Athas, without diluting them by including references to these other entities.
It isn't "What does the Black MEAN to Athas? What does it say ABOUT Athas?" it is, "What does the Black mean to the multiverse?" Suddenly, we're talking about the multiverse, rather than Athas, and we have to, we can't simply ignore it, because Athas isn't a closed cosmology. And if we do ignore it, well then, we've simply made it closed and changed the questions...BUT we haven't told anyone, and it is expected by the readers these questions will be answered.
Ultimately, in either case, focus is always removed from Athas to the encompassing entity (the multiverse) without closing the cosmology.
As an example of this concept, imagine if we had to understand Tolkien's Middle-earth in reference to its link to the X-Men's universe?
Much better that they are seperate entities that can "talk about" themselves without having to talk about their relation to some other thematically-unrelated entity at the same time. That link would irrevocably alter both realities, both stories.
I do not know if that over most of your heads (and no disrespect intended if it is), but I suggest that any replies wait on a night's thought and rest. (In fact, even if something is not over one's head, a night's thought and rest is always advisable prior to furiously typing out the initial reaction/response that comes to one's mind.)
Anyways, that is my stance on why the cosmology should be seperated, and I do believe strongly that it is eminently feasible to do so regardless of the few pieces of existing material that link Athas to the multiverse.
Someone called me?
Bah!
I like your crazed, bloodthirsty side better.
I do not know if that over most of your heads (and no disrespect intended if it is), but I suggest that any replies wait on a night's thought and rest. (In fact, even if something is not over one's head, a night's thought and rest is always advisable prior to furiously typing out the initial reaction/response that comes to one's mind.)
Not over my head, and I'm not a literature major.
Course I've had more contact with you over the net than most people on this board and have heard alot of these discussions you get into.
Nice job Raven, pretty much hits the nail on the head IMO.
And for those that haven't read about his theory on the Black, I suggest you do so.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=248923
Ich habe alle Pokémon Kinofilme gesehen...so etwas passiert, wenn man vier jüngere Geschwister hat.
Well written and to the point, Greynorm.
You know, the rabid one. ;)
:fight!:
:fight!:OK, here it is. Parental Advisory: Explicit Pokémon!
Awww, no longer valid.
I edited the link. Everyone brave (or foolhardy) enough to try will now find the most...yellow...monster on Athas.
Ah beautiful!
Brings a tear to my eye everytime.
The Charisma should be higher, maybe 99?
Term,
Simply, to put Athas into a shared cosmology makes it lose its seperate character, even changes its theme, because the setting becomes part of something else, part of a larger character (the multiversal entity of 2nd Edition D&D). Rather than a seperate entity, rather than a character unto itself, its theme changes because the points of reference change.
Anyways, that is my stance on why the cosmology should be seperated, and I do believe strongly that it is eminently feasible to do so regardless of the few pieces of existing material that link Athas to the multiverse.
seperated yes, but it's still part of it which numerous references in released and unreleased material from 2e support. so we are stuck with being part of the cosmology - but seperated. Just my .02c.
What Raven is saying is why can't we rewrite that?
We've already had to do that in some areas, why not do it in this area as well?
I've never heard of the Lady taking out someone of Dregoth's magnituse , and subscribe to the theory that it's Sigil itself that keeps gods out, not the Lady of Pain.
:fight!:
Her Serenity killed Aoskar, the God of Portals. She is the one who keeps the powers out. Even if it is Sigil itself that keeps the gods out, She controls Sigil. She manipulated Duke Darkwood over eons of time, and he was on par with Dregoth's power levels. According to Die Vecna Die (a craptacular source but a source nonetheless), She altered the entire multiverse, basicly converting the 2e planes to the 3e planes. So Dregoth would be just another proverbial notch in her belt.
I don't find that I need to wait for a night's sleep to respond to your post. I find your request for such quite presumptious, as well as your assuming that your post would be over some people's heads quite arrogant and without trying to start a fight, quite offensive. I happen to LIKE the "story" that has Athas as part of a larger universe, you make a lot of assumptions about how it was forced to be that way, but I would take an opposing viewpoint that forced or not, it is BETTER for being that way. I am a big planescape fan, and one of the biggest lures of planescape for me was the ability to cross over between the worlds, including Athas.
And I have cannon on my side, cannon is what it is. Accept or reject it as you see fit.
Cannon states that Athas is linked to the inner, outer, and other versions of the prime material planes, and is part of a larger D&D cosmology including other gameplay settings.
Your reasons for rejecting cannon are well thought out and explained, but they do not fit my games, or the games of others who post here and who participate in the darksun universe.
I have a multi year (RL year) campaign running around a sorcerer king driven invasion of the forgotten realms (The prophecies of the cult of the dragon practicaly SCREAM Dregoth), and it has been extremely well recieved and embraced by my players. The culmination of said campaign will be a severing of the ties between the two worlds, leading to an Athas like you describe in your post.
I chose to do this because I think the SK's in general are too powerful to be running around in other campaign settings, not because of any dislike of mixing the flavor of the worlds, and the fact is that working together, however unlikely that may be, they could easily conquer any of the other settings.
No matter what argument you can come up with, The Lady is unbeatable.
:evillaugh 
Champions = Intermediate - Greater Powers
Dragons, Avangions, Elemental AB, SotL AB = Lesser - Intermediate Powers
Other Classes beyond 25th Level = Demipowers.
Atghas Rules. Even Rikus could beat the crap out of the Lady!
;)
No honestly, this whole Lady vs Dregoth thing can't be solved, it's a matter of Opinion, and it is not really important.
WotC could go either way but they never will, you are the DMs you can decide for yourselfs, but I wouldn't really bother, both are cool Chars, let's say remi? peace
.Here's my argument: Athas used to have to be a part of "the multiverse" of D&D worlds. The previous writers were trying to fit the world into the existant D&D cosmology, which (at the time) was considered to bind all the big D&D properties together (with the exception of Birthright and Mystara). So they were constrained to making Athas fit into this scheme, much as Athas' dwarves had to fit into the scheme of other D&D dwarves.
It no longer needs to be constrained by this limitation. New times bring changes to the old rules, such as dwarves and halflings suddenly being able to be wizards (and able all along, it "turns out").
Very well written Greyorm. Puts it well into perspective. Also, if I remember correctly, even in the 2e ed., the worlds stitched together had many limitations which sort of killed their "individual" feels: for example, the people of Cerilia had their Blood powers revoked once off their world, DL was pretty much off from the Outer Planes (and seemed to have difficulty incorporating the Multiverse with the stories... since everything was the Abyss to them and Raislin destroyed EVERYTHING... the whole Multiverse, yeah right), DL would of been better off without being stiched in. I think there were also limitations to the people of Athas coming to the Outer Planes although I don't remember what it was.
Ryltar, the Lady of Pain had to come from somewhere. She has to draw her power from something. If she could kill Aoskar, who was a god and she was not, then she can be defeated by someone else. I'm sorry, but the LOP isn't the end-all and be-all. Just a heavy hitter, and there's always someone heavier. And that someone could very well be Dregoth, who wields god-like power without actually being one, has the advantage of being not just a gigantic dragon but a KAISHARGA as well, and knows how to make spells that could alter the way clerical magic works on an entire planet. And the only reason he limited himself to one is 'cause he's insane, and wants revenge. Dregoth is the man. And if it came down to it, i truly think he'd wax the LOP like mop and glow. :fight!:
1. Your logic makes no sense. She killed a god, but a far weaker undead being could kill her? Any God would destroy Dregoth as easy as blinking. She can kill gods. See the power ratio yet?
2. Yes, there may be a bigger fish than The Lady, but it hasn't been defined in an official D&D product.
3. To attack The Lady, Dregoth would have to enter Sigil. In Sigil, he is at The Lady's mercy, and She doesn't have any mercy on threats to Her and Sigil.
Ryltar, the Lady of Pain had to come from somewhere. She has to draw her power from something. If she could kill Aoskar, who was a god and she was not, then she can be defeated by someone else. I'm sorry, but the LOP isn't the end-all and be-all. Just a heavy hitter, and there's always someone heavier. And that someone could very well be Dregoth, who wields god-like power without actually being one, has the advantage of being not just a gigantic dragon but a KAISHARGA as well, and knows how to make spells that could alter the way clerical magic works on an entire planet. And the only reason he limited himself to one is 'cause he's insane, and wants revenge. Dregoth is the man. And if it came down to it, i truly think he'd wax the LOP like mop and glow. :fight!:
Dregoth isn't an idiot and he wouldn't be hubric enough to commit suicide like that... I've used Dregoth in my own campaign, and he's bloodthirsty, powerful, and too smart to throw it all away by challanging something that -nothing- knows the dark of.
Gods are barred from Sigil yes, but so are any beings or items that pose a threat to Sigil as well. Non divine beings such as Archfiends or archcelestials cannot enter Sigil either, the portals simply don't open for them. Dregoth either A) gets in and thereby doesn't have a chance, or B) doesn't get in if he poses any sort of threat to either The Lady, or Sigil, or simply would cause enough damage to the place to be an annoyance.
The Lady is intentionally a mystery and has never been defined (the events of Die Vecna Die are questionable since it wasn't part of the Planescape line and none of the events of the module have ever been mentioned in subsequent material. None of the planar changes in the module occured in line with those between 2e and 3e except by the most open ended interpretation possible and a rejection of the ones it stated did actually happen).
Nothing happens in Sigil without The Lady either not caring or wishing for it to occur. 99% of things are simply beneath Her level of notice because they don't matter in Her grand scheme of things. She preserves Sigil, prevents divine entry into the city, and obliterates challanges to Her rule or threats to the city. Anything beyond that is conjecture.
Monte Cook, when asked about what the original design team thought about The Lady, his response was that they never defined Her but assumed that She was some sort of being beyond that of an overgod, or as the 3e convention would place it, an uberpower. YMMV.
She's not an NPC, she's a plot mechanic, something that Dregoth isn't, he's an NPC and has stats, thus this would be his likely fate if he pushed things...
From Planewalker's 3e Sigil chapter, compiling the known details of The Lady:
[u]The Lady[/u]
The planes have mysteries cutter, and not all of them have answers. Walk the planes long enough and that’s something you’ll take to heart. Some things just are. You don’t question them, you don’t fight them, and you don’t so much as stand in their way. They just exist and you accept it.
Not the lady of pain – no - the Lady of Pain. Her Serenity, Her Dread Majesty, and the ultimate power in Sigil (perhaps anywhere else, it’s reckoned by some). She keeps and controls the portals of the City of Doors, and She bars the powers from entering. Appearing as a tall, robed woman with Her face sprouting a halo and headdress of blades from Her very flesh, She floats silently above the streets of Sigil. She is the protector of Sigil and, by that, all of its inhabitants, not that She likely cares one way or another for anyone in the city. But any threats to Sigil itself or to Her own power and She reacts. During these select few times in Sigil’s history, terrible Her fury has been, and most Cagers prefer to forget such occurrences.
From time to time, She may randomly float down an avenue, passively observing before vanishing around a corner without a trace. Wise bloods look away and avert their eyes, or quickly find business elsewhere. She never speaks; never has in the history of Sigil as far as any know. In the scant few times She’s needed to make Her will known directly She’s done so through one of Her servants, the dabus, as She floats silently behind them, never a mark of emotion crossing Her face. Not that it’s wise to stare into that continence.
She’s not a god, get that straight. She’s something else, more or less; none know the dark of it. But never worship Her, not even in jest. Those who do are found dead; their skin flayed from their bones, seen walking through Sigil when the Lady appears and Her shadow reaches out to strike them. Wherever Her bladed, serrated shadow touches, their body erupts with slashes, wounds and gouges as if from a storm of knives and razors. None have ever survived the touch of Her shadow, nor even been successfully resurrected afterwards. They die, that is certain, for when She acts, She acts with certainty.
The chant even goes that centuries ago, before the Great Upheaval, the Lady penned a true deity into the dead book, Aoskar, the self-proclaimed Portal Father and patron of planewalkers and opportunity. She killed him, simple as that. They say for one reason or another he offended Her, or plotted to take the City of Doors for himself.
The Portal Father
Long ago, before the Shattered Temple District gained its name and the Athar claimed the ruins as their own, the Shattered Temple was the High Temple of Aoskar. At its height, Aoskar claimed nearly half of the residents of the Cage as his worshippers, with many of them whispering a prayer to him before passing into or out of a portal to Sigil. In fact, eventually the worship of Aoskar become nearly synonymous with the City of Doors itself, and a time came when berks began to worship the Lady of Pain as an aspect of him.
Whatever his ultimate reasons, Aoskar’s final offense to the Lady was when one of the dabus took up the robes of his priesthood and endorsed the worship of the Father of Portals, forsaking Her Serenity in doing so. That dabus, still alive and forsaken by his own kind, is known as Fell. None besides him and the Lady know the true dark of what exactly happened, save that the temple, and all within were obliterated in what would be called by some graybeards as the Day of Blades and Fury. The temple was reduced to rubble along with the city surrounding it, and Aoskar, along with all of his mortal worshippers throughout the multiverse, were killed by the lancing shadow of Her Serenity in a single moment of horror. Some claim to have seen the withered husk of Aoskar upon the Astral, its stony face locked into a gasp of terror, one petrified arm raised as if to ward off some attack, and pierced through with glimmering, metallic blades.
Some claim all of his mortal worshippers were slain at the moment of his death, though it is impossible to prove this and it seems to be at the least some level of exaggeration since much of Sigil, in theory, worshipped him at the time. It may be possible that clergy as well as those worshippers who had taken up Aoskar as their patron were similarly affected. The records from the time are however absent or destroyed so all we are left with is speculation and bloody legends.
The symbols and trappings of the faith of Aoskar have since that time been considered anathema within Sigil, such was Her fury that day to not only kill a greater power but all of his mortal host as well. Such are the lengths that the Lady will go to protect Her city and Her position within.
Speculation on the true nature of the Lady is rife among scholars, sages, and the common folks of Sigil alike. But answers are never forthcoming from any source. Still, the common chant, most likely all screed without a shred of proof, holds a number of common myths. Some say that the Lady is a mortal who found Sigil and used it to grant Herself immeasurable power. Other rumors hold that She is a renegade, or risen, tanar’ri lord from the Abyss. Others say that She was hatched from a dabus egg [Whatever that is – The Editor] by Io, the draconic overpower. A few even suggest She may simply be an illusion of the dabus themselves, or their queen, much like that among bees in a hive. Now dead sages, rumored mazed or flayed, have claimed that the Lady is not the ruler of Sigil, but its ultimate prisoner. After all, why else might Sigil be called the Cage? Some have compared the Lady to an overpower, or some unique, but nondivine being, so ancient as to defy mortal definitions. A being who exists to keep Sigil free of any and all divine influences, perhaps in an attempt to balance the planes themselves.
Of course, not a shred of proof exists to shed a light upon the mystery. And those who seek to delve too deeply into the Lady’s secrets tend to vanish without a trace, gone, whisked away on the winds of oblivion.
DM’s Dark: Using the Lady
The Lady of Pain is less an NPC than a setting mechanic. She transcends any game mechanic and has no stats. Should She be directly challenged by PC’s or NPC’s, nothing they do should be capable of hitting or harming Her. Not a wish, not a miracle, not even epic spells. Even the overpowers cannot defy the barriers preventing powers from entering the Cage (not that such beings tend to have interests beyond their sphere of influence anyways). Within Sigil, the Lady of Pain should be considered as close to all powerful as needed. That said, the Lady should not be overexposed or used outside of rare occasions lest She lose the mystique and grandeur that surrounds Her, along with the unknown details of Her history and true connection to Sigil or indeed roll within the multiverse itself.
Those who challenge the Lady are mazed or flayed with no sympathy, malice, or quarter given by Her Serenity. Those who harm Sigil or disrupt the life of the city in grand fashion will suffer the same fate, as will those who seek to delve too deeply into the secrets of the Lady (if they manage to escape insanity in their quest). Some things are beyond the scope of the PC’s in the setting, and interacting with the Lady in all but the most rare and unique fashion should be avoided. At most, a character may see the Lady floating silently down a street in Sigil, or perhaps once in the course of a long and well-developed campaign a PC may witness a flaying or an edict given by the Lady to them or others. Such edicts should be reserved for campaign defining events with major ramifications within Sigil.
Considering all this, the Lady is not omnipotent (not completely, anyways). In terms of the metaplot, certain “weaknesses” have been exploited in the past, and the rare NPC has seemingly come close to gaining some victory over Her, only to ultimately fail (and sometimes with evidence such attempts were merely part of the Lady’s design). In any case, the Lady should always remain above and beyond the ambitions of the PCs.
Bah. Blatant Planescapist propaganda. Squirrels, I say. She is just a bunch of squirrels in a big dress.
I say we declare war right here and now!
Shemeska awesome Lady of Pain animation . How did you post that image?
1) I didn't make that animation, one of the folks on the Planescape and/or Planes and Deities board here did. (Along with a Modron, an LoP grinning, etc).
2) I've got a number of Planescape related smilies uploaded onto a server one of my players has, and just link the image to here from there.
War? Naaah, just bow down and welcome your new Yugoloth masters
Over Dregoth's dead body....oh wait.
What Raven is saying is why can't we rewrite that?
We've already had to do that in some areas, why not do it in this area as well?
I'm against re-writing flavour. But you're right, nothing stopping you from doing it, but it's against the spirit of the setting, as i see it anyway. As i said, it's part of the multiverse but seperated from the multiverse (by the grey).
I never understood the point in that.
Are you planning on allowing some ways to bypass the grey? The way I see it the grey is impentrable, only the mirror Dregoth has can bypass it and even then he's not going to what he perceives as the outer planes but some where along the lines of echoes being bounced off the shadow plane.
I just never saw the point in having it be part of the multiverse if the players are never allowed to the multiverse or will have an almost impossible chance of getting to the multiverse.
Anyway, the power level of the Lady is just an assumption, not really valid just a guess.
Fact is that the Lady ensures that Sigil keeps everything out that might be a Threat to her, Achfiends, Archcelestials, Demons etc., this isn't just an assumption, Shemeska confirmed this in her post.
If the Lady would be more powerful then an Overpower she wouldn't mind Gods or divine beings entering Sigil, she would kill them on sight, the reason she keeps them out is, like stated before, they are a Threat to her. A Threat is something that can hurt or even destroy you, that means those Divine beings listed are powerful enough to harm or destroy her, see she isn't that powerful after all, she is just like an might ArchDeamon, and Dregoth is more then that.
Fact: Threat = Equal or greater in Power = Archfiends, Archcelestials, Gods........ Muahahahahahaha :P
Except of this, plot mechanics change, if WotC decides a 16th Level fighter to kill her she will die
.I'm going to regret this post, I know it, Shemeska will.....I can't forget this animation
PS: Are you sure that it is written that she "fought and killed a God in this fight"? ;)
The point of these boards is discussion, not sticking your opinion that the discussion is stupid. That's very impolite and immature. What are you, like 12? 15? if not, maybe don't act like it.
I didn't see what he wrote, he edited it before I could see it.
However, calling him 12 or 15 and saying he acts like it is even more immature. ;)
Keep it civil folks, and let's get the thread back on topic, no more of "my favorite NPC can beat up your favorite NPC" and no more Planescape propaganda.
If I wanted to hear propaganda I would watch the Faux news channel. ;)
:angelhide
Shemeska, Ryltar I really like your posts on the Planescape board. Period (I really like it).
It is often...very problematic...if it is tried to compare über-characters of different game worlds, e.g. Dregoth and the LoP, Vecna and the LoP (does Die Vecna Die sound familiar?), or Elminster and Dregoth etc.
I didn't see my post on that level either.
I believe you, especially since I have yet to see you get to that level on the boards.
Despite the mad pikachu disease you suffer from that kicks in now and then. :D
Anyways...
according to the Epic Level Handbook is a Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz24/Acm5, for a total of 35, plus maybe 3 or 4 more for the Chosen status.
Yeah, I don't like how they stated out the NPCs though, still too wussy for my tastes, esp Eliminister.
Compared to most denizens of the Realms, though, Elminster is top dog in stats. The biggest bada$$ in his home plane.Just from descriptions, his biggest spells don't seem on par with psionic enchantments.
Actually isn't the Simbul higher than him?
I wouldn't expect any of the realms NPC's to be individually at the same power level as a SK, but there are a lot more of them to go around. I can think of at least 20 between the chosen of Mystra, the Shades, and other iconic NPC's, not counting the 80 or so Elven High Magi remaining.
In Dark Sun, you have the SK's, the Mindlords, and possibly some members of the Order at one "tier" and then a huge dropoff to the next grouping of powerful individuals, leaders of the VA, random defilers, etc. The realms have a much more gradual power curve. I guess it helps if you eliminate any possible competition far in advance of it becoming a possible threat.
As to Dregoth versus the LoP, no contest, the Lady gets a nice dragon skin handbag and matching shoes. He's not an idiot though, I can't imagine him even trying to instigate such a confrontation.
I realize that this post is somewhat off of the original topic of the thread, so my apologies in advance.
Hm, I rember a Planescape product where it was speculated that the Lady was a Tanari Lord.
Anyway, the power level of the Lady is just an assumption, not really valid just a guess.
Fact is that the Lady ensures that Sigil keeps everything out that might be a Threat to her, Achfiends, Archcelestials, Demons etc., this isn't just an assumption, Shemeska confirmed this in her post.
If the Lady would be more powerful then an Overpower she wouldn't mind Gods or divine beings entering Sigil, she would kill them on sight, the reason she keeps them out is, like stated before, they are a Threat to her. A Threat is something that can hurt or even destroy you, that means those Divine beings listed are powerful enough to harm or destroy her, see she isn't that powerful after all, she is just like an might ArchDeamon, and Dregoth is more then that.
Aye, the original Planescape box set has a list of rumors regarding The Lady: a risen or outcast Tanar'ri lord is one of those wild rumors, among others.
The Lady wouldn't bother with Overpowers since by their definition, Overpowers are concerned only with a single prime material cosmos/sphere or a single pantheon of gods. Outside of their realm of influence they don't care and usually have no influence (like Ao being effectively all powerful within Toril/realmspace but neither concerned with anything outside and not having any power there either).
Gods may not be a threat either, but rather their presence in Sigil itself may be a problem, possibly by unbalancing the multiverse. Or if nothing so dire, The Lady may simply act to keep a balance on the planes (speculation) and not allowing one god, one alignment, or one philosophy to dominate within Sigil would be a way to ensure this. Any time in Sigil's history that one person or ground has grown too powerful they've been broken apart or vanished to the mazes or died (the Factions, Vartus Timlin and the Expansionists, the Communalists, Rowan Darkwood (3 times even...), etc).
The Lady may even be a prisoner of Sigil, a fragment manifested from some utterly unknowable and -dire- entity in the fashion of a lovecraftian lurker on the doorstep.
We don't know, but it's ever so fun to speculate.
PS: Are you sure that it is written that she "fought and killed a God in this fight"? ;)
At the risk of repeating info in my previous post...
Indeed, it's established canon that Her Serenity obliterated Aoskar the Greater God of Portals, Planewalkers and Opportunity for his attempts to insinuate himself into Sigil by associating the use of Sigil's portals with an act of worship of himself. At the time of his death fully 1/2 or more of Sigil's population gave worship in some way to him. Eventually one of the Dabus, the servants of The Lady, became a priest of his (a proxy of his even) at which point The Lady stopped fooling around. Aoskar's temple was olbiterated and his corpse is floating on the Astral plane with a look of horror on its face. His temple in Sigil and the entire district surrounding it was more or less razed to the ground in an instant with only Fell the fallen dabus surviving. Rumor abounds that his priests scattered across the planes fell dead at the same instant, but this may be legend only. Aoskar's faith died with him understandably, and the name itself is either forgotten or considered an anathema.
Fell, the dabus who embraced worship of Aoskar was cast out of his position but there's debate over if Fell was actually a traitor to his kind and The Lady or perhaps was used to place a fragment of Aoskar into Sigil in order to allow The Lady to act upon him. It's unknown, but The Lady allows Fell to live, perhaps out of mercy, or perhaps out of punishment.
oh, and for what it's worth, I had fun with the New Tyr district in Sigil's Lower Ward/Hive bleed over area since it made me go look up and read some of the older Dark Sun material which I'd previously been largely ignorant of. I can't say that I regret it.
It's a fun world and I've used it (and Dregoth) in my campaign.Last edited by Elonarc : Yesterday at 11:07 PM.
Oooo, that must have been nasty!
I don't find that I need to wait for a night's sleep to respond to your post. I find your request for such quite presumptious, as well as your assuming that your post would be over some people's heads quite arrogant and without trying to start a fight, quite offensive.
You state I am arrogant, offensive, and presumptuous...and you are not trying to start a fight? I'm sorry, sir, but any rudeness, any "fighting words" in this conversation thus far are wholly your own. In fact, your hostility leads me consideration of completely ignoring your post, but in the interests of civil discourse, I will not do so.
First and foremost, I ecourage you to reread the statement you find so offensive: "I do not know if that was over most of your heads..."
Note, the statement was not, "This is going to be over most of your heads..."
As you can see, there are vast differences between the two statements; with the former, there is no arrogant assumption.
As to presumptuousness regarding the request...I am at a loss of how to respond to this. I note that you yourself make a claim Athas "is BETTER for being that way" regarding its link to the D&D multiverse, though you apparently do not welcome me to my own opposing opinion on the subject. You berate me as presumptuous in having such, while at the same time not judging as the same your own statement and defense?
All I can really say is that your opinion is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. I do not expect or need you to agree with mine, and can fully respect our difference in this matter, much as I respect Term's difference of opinion with it.
Both of you wish to have a multiversal story which includes Athas. That is just fine, and I do not judge that effort as "impure" or "unholy" (hah) or "wrong", so do not mistake my criticism of the multiversal link of Athas to critcism of such an endeavor. They are seperate matters.
I have to wonder if perhaps the reason you are so offended by my holding forth the view I have is because you have taken my statements as a percieved judgement upon your particular game, and the fun you have had with it. I base this on the defense of your game you provided as counterpoint, as you seem (to me) more upset by what I "appeared" to be saying than what I actually said. All I can really say in response is, "Whatever you want to do with your game is just fine with me. It's your game, after all, and it's your fun."
And I have cannon on my side, cannon is what it is. Accept or reject it as you see fit.
Canon is indeed what it is, as you say. However, I must point out two things about "canon": canon also states dwarves and halflings cannot be wizards. Canon further contradicts itself in a number of places on a variety of subjects (you can do a search to find the various threads covering the topic contradiction in canonical materials). As such, I would say instead, "Canon is what you make of it."
Your reasons for rejecting cannon are well thought out and explained, but they do not fit my games, or the games of others who post here and who participate in the darksun universe.
I fully recognize they may not fit everyone's games, much as the Prism Pentad does not fit everyone's games (as it did not fit mine). I certainly can not hold a gun to anyone's head and force them to accept any proposal I make (it would be silly to believe that I could), even WotC cannot do that; I can still offer them up as alternatives and argue for the validity of my proposals, however. And that is what I have done.
you make a lot of assumptions about how it was forced to be that way
All my "assumptions" about the linking of Athas to the other planes are well informed by long exposure to and understanding of the ways in which businesses, particularly commercial creative endeavors such as the gaming industry, operate. No, there are no guarantees I have correctly deduced the situation -- there may be factors of which I am unaware -- but given the strength of the known facts of the situation, I would put money on that as the primary, driving reason it was done that way.
Anyways, I hope you can see why I say, "A night's thought and rest is always advisable prior to furiously typing out the initial reaction/response that comes to one's mind." (Which is, in fact, one of the premier rules of a board I frequent daily. Given the rule's success in fostering positive communication, and its wisdom, I cannot argue against such a practice.) It certainly would have had a good chance of preventing the unnecessary hostility that has occurred here.
, maybe she is just the room-maid, she cleans Sigils streets. Her powers are unknown, but most likely on par with the Divine Beings, in Sigil she may have an Army, powerful Artefacts, or rooms with Nukes ;) to help her keeping the Town clean. So as I stated before it's a remi between those both. I'm glad they will never meet. Both are cool and unique Chars, why do they have to fight? We should all agree that both are Equals for their fans and let it be. LoP, Dregoth, Pokemon, you gotta ca... Love them all.
TerminusVortexa I'm sure Elonarc meant no offense, it's just an misunderstanding, keep the peace, we are all peaceful Athasians after all, right GreyOrm? So don't argue, forget the bad feelings and shake Hands
. All is well!Peace was made about 12 hours ago. International relations are still good between America and Germany
:heehee I live in Germany since 15 Years now, but I'm born in another country, but who cares, we are all the same, Athasians
.I never understood the point in that.
Are you planning on allowing some ways to bypass the grey? The way I see it the grey is impentrable, only the mirror Dregoth has can bypass it and even then he's not going to what he perceives as the outer planes but some where along the lines of echoes being bounced off the shadow plane.
I just never saw the point in having it be part of the multiverse if the players are never allowed to the multiverse or will have an almost impossible chance of getting to the multiverse.
I had already asked this question, but I have got no persuasive answer:
1. Where is written that the Gray is impenetrable?
2. Why do you think that this source is more official than p. 10 of the Defilers and Preservers?
Well, technically, there's only a 4% chance of making it throught the gray, other than the Planar Mirror and other such artifacts. However, if you take a shortcut through one of the elemental planes, you have a 34% chance, but the knowledge of even an astute Athasian with the power to contemplate such an action probably has no way of knowing that you can then go from the Inner Planes to another place on the Prime where the Gray doesn't exist, and then onwards towards the outer planes. The only ones who would probably have access to this knowledge are Advanced Being Druids, who can go to any inner plane at will, and Advanced Being Character Elementals, who can go to their patron plane at will (I think). They probably both aren't willing to share this knowledge , especially with SKs.:fight!:
:fight!:I have to wonder if perhaps the reason you are so offended by my holding forth the view I have is because you have taken my statements as a percieved judgement upon your particular game, and the fun you have had with it.
Actually I am not in the least offended with your viewpoint, I think you explained it well, and you are absolutely entitled to it. I happen to disagree with it, but I disagree with a lot of things, very few of which prompt such a hostile response from me. I was offended by what I perceived as a "holier than thou" attitude.
Making the comment "I don't know if that was over most of your heads" implies that you assume it to be over some if not many people's heads, and anyone who doesn't agree with you automatically did not fully comprehend your point. Therefore, an arrogant statement. Additionally, asking for everyone to wait overnight before responding also implies that no one could possibly make a reasonable rebuttal to it without an 8 hour response window to compose their thoughts. While there are several other examples, I will conclude with your thinking you have to use different, more simple, explanations for non-literature majors as icing on the cake. Your whole post was condescending to the extreme.
Indeed.Your whole post was condescending to the extreme
Didn't feel like it to me. Greyorm often writes material that requires someone to be alert, open-minded, and sharper than usual. Its a statement as to his above-average state of mind, really. I admire him.
Its not condescending to say a few people won't understand a statement: some statements, for instance, require the other party to reverse its meaning. People who are offended or beffudled by such a statement did not make the required reversal and thus understood exactly the contrary of what was conveyed. What does it say of those people? They did not take the time to grasp more fully the nuances of the message, or they did not read/listen to it until the end, or...whatever reasons.
I just described a "form" used in communication (sorry I don't know the actual name). Greyorm was not using such or a similar form, but if those forms can confuse someone, so can a text exposing complex matters. Thus, there will always be people for whom the meaning or implications of a text or speech will pass over their heads. Greyorm made a true statement IMO, and I believe that its perceived meaning was not of a negative nature, such as condescending, for I did not perceive it that way.
. Anyway, TerminusVortexa is right, so peace, Love.... whatever.... 
Re-reading the last posts it seems the primary subject of the thread has either been abandonned or answered.
So I suggest letting this thread be and starting one or more new threads to continue the ongoing subject(s).
IE: "I think you're arrogant." How can you argue with that?
You can't argue with what another person "thinks" or "interprets"; it's perception. Or I should say, you can argue with it, but it's futile because you're trying to tell someone the way they feel is wrong, and that just inspires more defensiveness.
We aren't talking about facts here (ie: statements/behaviors that are clearly meant to demean), so any argument about such a thing is doomed to be unproductive because it is ultimately "unresolvable".
Basically, if the other person chooses to see arrogance, well, I don't have any control over that and I can't actually do anything about it. All I can do is shrug and walk away.
All I can do is shrug and walk away.
But at least you can correctly spell "canon" when you use it properly. And that gets all sorts of "benefit of the doubt" in my eyes. ;)
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Your whole post was condescending to the extreme.
Well, being someone who has talked with Raven (Greyorm) for many years, I can assure you sir/madam, that he was doing everything but that.
I think you're seeing something in there that doesn't exist and are taking it personally.
Alot of us have our own little talents over others, Raven's is literature. Either accept this and move on, or get over yourself for not being totally super genius in everything which is utterly impposible to do, one of the two.
Either accept this and move on, or get over yourself for not being totally super genius in everything which is utterly impposible to do, one of the two.
Yeah, look at me: I write these super-insightful jokes that no one is intelligent enought to get!
Nyt: remember that hibernating bear joke? How difficult was that to get?
:D
Nyt: remember that hibernating bear joke? How difficult was that to get?
:D
;)
I never understood the point in that.
Are you planning on allowing some ways to bypass the grey? The way I see it the grey is impentrable, only the mirror Dregoth has can bypass it and even then he's not going to what he perceives as the outer planes but some where along the lines of echoes being bounced off the shadow plane.
I just never saw the point in having it be part of the multiverse if the players are never allowed to the multiverse or will have an almost impossible chance of getting to the multiverse.
Dregoth COULD go to another planet that has the conduits for powers, and either become a god or replace another one, but then he would be stuck there and would die (the power of been a god unable to replace the power granted by the Dark Lens). Or maybe he loses a lot of his power when he is travelling away from Athas, and is incapable of becoming a god?
Oh, and leave Greyorm alone - his Ice-Athas gets him a lot of 'kudos' in my book. that was/is a great idea, and puts noonans "advance it 300 years" to shame. :D
:fight!:
:fight!:Erm...Dregoth's Revenge(City by the Silt Sea Adventure Book) anyone? I'm rather shocked all of you overlooked it. It hasn't been mentioned once! I am very dissapointed in all of you so called Athasians. Psh. :P
As for the old Dregoth being an Kaisharga, according to his write up in the City by the Silt Sea boxed set:
"While Dregoth is a unique being, his new state is very similar to that of a kaisharga, a lichlike creature native to Athas."
He's not A kaisharga, he's similar to one. He's a unique being. One of a kind and all that.
Furthermore I recall someone mentioning he'd be the only link to the Elemental Planes...wouldn't that mean he'd have to steal the links from the other Shadowkings first, what with them being a conduit themselves?
As for the Lady of Pain vs. Dregoth, I remember reading somewhere and a post a page or two back confirms, that the Lady of Pain was not given stats etc. on purpose. She's a game mechanic, not an NPC. This while Dregoth is, to my knowledge an NPC.
To drag this out more, yes, I agree. Any Shadowking would probably own any setting other then Athas itself, but that's mostly due to the nature of Athas.
And finally I'd like to know where this whole "grey" is from. I have most of the books, boxed sets, accessories, adventures and Dragon Magazine and haven't run into it yet(Granted I haven't read all of it yet, but I'm in the process of. Sue me.)
Right I think that's most of it. If I missed anything, let me know.
Right I think that's most of it. If I missed anything, let me know.
Yeah, the term your looking for is "Sorcerer-Kings" not "Shadowkings" ;)
Shadowkings
That would be Sorcerer-Kings. I am very dissapointed in you as the so called Athasian you think you are. Psh. double-:P
-sorry, had to :D -
As for the Grey, its one of two dimensions unique to Athas. Its first mentionned in the very first books of the Prism Pentad series of novels and is an integral part of DS. Its also mentionned in the rules in Preservers & Defilers: The Wizards of Athas, in the rules in Terrors of the Dead Lands, in the fluff text of a couple of monsters in Terrors of the Dead Lands and the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium Appendix II, and not to forget the Revised Campaign Setting Box if I'm not mistaken.
The conduits of the other sorceror-kings will be stolen by Dregoth's godspell. That's part of what it is intended to do.And Dregoth's state only differs from a Kaisharga in it's origin and the fact that he's not a humanoid and was already immortal before becoming one. All of this information is not too hard to come by.
Yeah you reckon? If you dont have dregoth ascending then its hard to know anything about dregoths godspell and stealing conduits (and the WizO's job should be stopping ANYONE from mentioning any bits of DA until its released - its damn frustrating).
And like the man said, Dregoth is a unique undead LIKE a Kaisharga - he aint one he just looks like one. A kaisharga is like a Lich, and Dregoth is like a Kaisharga.
And on the topic of why he doesnt just leave (THEORY NUMBER 2 ;) ), maybe the fact he has an elemental conduit prevents him from becoming a power - its a chalk and cheese thing, they just wont mix. So he's stuck, he cant go somewhere else and become a God, and he can't (even though he thinks he might be able to) become a God on Athas.
And i dont want to hear "in DA he becomes a God" because that would be its "jumping the shark" moment.
And i dont want to hear "in DA he becomes a God" because that would be its "jumping the shark" moment.
Well you won't hear that, I promise. ;)
Oba-wan: "Use the For...I mean the Way, Lewk!"
Jaanos
And finally I'd like to know where this whole "grey" is from. I have most of the books, boxed sets, accessories, adventures and Dragon Magazine and haven't run into it yet(Granted I haven't read all of it yet, but I'm in the process of. Sue me.)
Right I think that's most of it. If I missed anything, let me know.
Dregoth leaves on a regular basis. He has the Planar Gate, and is actually the only Athasian being to regularly travel the planes.
You mean, apart from clerical elementals and ruvoka ;).
And Advanced Being Druids,too.
That's what ruvoka are, for the most part.
Oh, and don't forget the ruves as well (although the 3e version currently lacks the astral probability travel powers that they had in 2e - maybe another errata for ToA...).