Did the people who did terrors of the dead lands use a lot of creative liberty or what? Like Neksos, the kaisharga and t'liz creation processes? Why the "eat a fruit and become a kaisharga" thing? It's been bugging me since the terrors document was released waaay back when, but I figured there was a reason. Now I wonder. Back then I wondered about the dragon's creation of his dead lords, and how a seed could be found in the deadlands. It just seemed kind of . . . I don't want to say hokey, but . . . well, hokey. A seed from the deadlands? That's not terribly possible, is it? I could buy a tree enchanted with a spell that makes the tree a conduit to the gray that enchants the fruit, just not the seed from the deadlands bit.
As for the t'liz, to be honest again, the process outlined doesn't quite seem to jive with the original flavor text in the terrors beyond tyr book. It says that the casting of defiling magic is what somehow lead to the t'liz creation and that they're all defilers. The dragon magazine outline on becoming a t'liz is actually a bit more tasty than the contact a spirit of the gray to me. The contact a spirit bit doesn't seem to be really unique to a defiler, and it was very clear from the beginning that a t'liz was a uniquely defiler creature, which means stealing life energy, not mackin it up with some creature in the gray.
And the creation of these creatures who inhabit the gray? The crimsons? What's their deal? What was the decision to create them, from a designer's point of view? Does the bit about "result of rajaat's experiments" mean that their creation is linked to the deadlands tragedy?
Ok, I totally understand that this is all done and past and decisions have been made and stuff, but I was just wondering what fueled some of these decisions, what the driving thoughts were from a designer's point of view. Don't tell me "it's your game, so change what you want, you don't have to accept the official line" because I already know that. I'm just wondering what the original lines of thought were is all. So uh, thanks ahead of time, and if I sound snippety, sorry I don't mea to. Thanks!
nic
I can offer some thoughts on the t'liz, though (as I'm working on the transformation process right now). I didn't see anything in the 2e material that specifically stated that defiling led to becoming a t'liz, just that all t'liz are defilers. The writeup on Nevarli suggests to me that the oils and ointments are central to the transformation, more than anything else, along with the fact that the t'liz's spirit has "outlived" its body. These two elements combine to make the 3e t'liz template function in the way that it does. The "contact a spirit from the Gray" element is really just fluff here. The defiler contacts a Gray spirit (using an application of gate, rather than the 2e pact of darkness) and surrenders his soul to the creature with the expel the soul spell, in return for which the spirit floods the defiler with energy from the Gray. The special ointments and oils preserve the defiler's mind and body, now suffused with Gray energy, transforming him into a t'liz. The 10% chance for each level above 20th that the t'liz is destroyed will probably be dropped in favour of a different mechanic involving physical and mental deterioration fended off with the oils and ointments. The revised t'liz template and transformation process (and those for the kaisharga and morg, btw) are still undergoing internal review, so some of the above may well change in the final version, but this is the general direction that we are going. Thanks for the interest!
T'liz seem to be the athasian vampire . . . porphyria (sp?) or whatever it's called, the disease that might be the basis of vampirism in real life, where the body gets all shrivelled and nasty and stuff . . . consider a t'liz's body, through channelling way too much life energy through defiling, has become dependent upon it. To the point where it gradually becomes undead. The spirit, supercharged by the channeled energies, lives on, but the body deteriorates. Their body NEEDS that energy. So they can either feed on plant life or keep their walking corpse nice through expensive oils and the like. If they don't do either, their body simply rots.
The cause of this? I kinda like the idea of defiler points to be honest at this point. But I'm just in favor of linking the t'liz more to the act of defiling and plant life sucking than to the cliché "make a pact with something" deal.
Thanks for the response too, by the way.
nic
The idea for the t'liz ritual, IIRC, we wanted a source for the t'liz's power, and a way of making sure not every 20th-level wizard became a t'liz. The Gray is the obvious source of power for undead on Athas, but we wanted something a bit more elaborate than simply a spell to connect the Gray. It's a bit like you decribed it, Cap'n Nick: the defiler becomes addicted to the defiling energies, is dependent upon it, and once he reached 20th-level (remember, this is 2E we're talking about), the only way he can get more is by a connection to the Gray. The facilitator of this connection is the spirit that lives in the Gray. The defiler is basically using the spirit's connection (or nature) to get access to a higher source of power: the Gray.
The Neksos comes from Secrets of the Dead Lands, IIRC, and the mind of Will Kendrick.
As for getting seeds from the Dead Lands, that part of the ritual was based on the Net Project by Gerald Arthur Lewis. And it is possible to get a seed from a tree in the Dead Lands, but it's very difficult.
T'liz seem to be the athasian vampire
Nope. That's more the Kraai.
Nope. That's more the Kraai.
I thought it was more the Thrax.
I thought it was more the Thrax.
I'd have to agree with Sysane on this one.
OMG! I'm agreeing with Sysane!
/me runs
:D
We're talking undead aren't we?
Not neccessarily, we were just mentioning what was closer to a vampire, and that's definately the Thrax, even though it's not an undead.
I'd have to agree with Sysane on this one.
OMG! I'm agreeing with Sysane!
/me runs
:D
Its the apocalypse!!!!
Besides, one gets the feeling that the dead lands haven't really been approached by anyone, SMs included. Otherwise why haven't they made pacts with the undead there already or anything like that?
Just to clarify, I meant vampire in the sense of undead living offof life energy that tries and usually manages quite successfully to exist and hide within living society. While the thrax is uniquely athasian and quite vampiric, it is not undead, nor does it take the role I am describing.
Never understood why they didn't make the thrax undead. I always thought it was a typo that they weren't. I mean if your killed by one you raise the next day as a thrax. That screams undead.
As for the Neksos, uhm . . . is there any actual mention of it/him in the SotDL accesory?
I think so, I'll have to double check though.
And I seriously extremely emphatically doubt that a seed from a tree of life could possibly be used to grow something that exists solely for the creation of undead.
Well, it's perverted, that's why it works. The seed not the tree of life.
I doubt even more that Borys could even KNOW about the tree of life.
The one in the Deadlands? Maybe, hard to say, there's nothing say yea or nea about that.
Besides, one gets the feeling that the dead lands haven't really been approached by anyone, SMs included.
They will be in the Emissary. ;) (intro adventure to the SotDL accessory)
Why not just make the component be that a seed must be taken from a tree of life, then a whole lot of alchemical poisoning and defiling magic on the seedling that turns it into a perversion of the original tree, and thereafter the tree bears the nasty fruit, like fruit per year, that turns the consumer into kaisharga? Then kaisharga are no longer bound to the dead lands. It just requires a defiler or what-have-you to know the process, get their claws on a tree of life long enough to get what they need (maybe even just a cutting of the tree that they have to plant as a new tree, rather than a seed), pervert the little thing, and revel in their newfound undeadness.
nic
It's a bit like you decribed it, Cap'n Nick: the defiler becomes addicted to the defiling energies, is dependent upon it, and once he reached 20th-level (remember, this is 2E we're talking about), the only way he can get more is by a connection to the Gray.
Coolness. That angle isn't immediately apparent from TotDL - I'll tease it out some more to bring it to the fore to a greater degree
.Gab was saying that in 2E going beyond 20th level was impossible and required becoming a powerful undead like a t'liz.
Now a wizard can be of 34th level if he can achieve that.
Just a small reminder (I got the impression you were confusing rulesets here)
Er, Kam?
Gab was saying that in 2E going beyond 20th level was impossible and required becoming a powerful undead like a t'liz.
Now a wizard can be of 34th level if he can achieve that.
Just a small reminder (I got the impression you were confusing rulesets here)
Nah, no confusion. I'm referring to fluff, not rules
. I was saying that the addiction element of seeking t'lizdom doesn't really shine through in the current write-up and I think the fluff could be tweaked to emphasise this a bit more, that's all.