On the spur of the moment, I recently ordered a second-hand copy of the original 'Star*Drive' campaign setting and was wondering what I could expect of this product - I am still waiting for it to arrive! Although I was aware of the gaming-line back then, I was far more interested in other role-playing games and so chose not to consider it. Would someone mind telling me whether this was indeed a good thing? Is it still useful, or not? Is there anything that I should look out for with regards to this setting?
As a matter of interest, I do have the 'd20 Modern', 'd20 Future' and 'Dark*Matter Campaign Setting' (from, Polyhedron Magazine). Is there anything else I should consider buying to possibly enhance a 'Star*Drive' campaign?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanking you in advance,
Blue Crane
As I said above there is lots of fluff in this book, much more then crunch, but what crunch there is is good, I seriously recommend trying to get all the books for this setting, as well as the Dark Matter books.
As for converting the crunch (if you want to be a heathen as many on this message board might scream :D ), Alternity was the pre-cursor to D20, so some elements will transfer quite cleanly, others will need a bit of work, however, most of the main elements have now been done in D20 Modern and D20 Future as well as the Menace Manual which should make it easier.
- Chapter 1: The Star*Drive Campaign
- Chapter 2: The 26th Century
- Chapter 3: Stellar Nations
- Chapter 4: The Verge
- Chapter 5: Hero Creation
Chapter 1 gives the history from "today" to the 26th Century as well as the types of campaigns you can run, it runs from page 7 to 18.
Chapter 2 details the 26th Century running from pages 19 to 38.
Chapter 3 gives details of the history of each Stellar Nation, it runs from page 39 to 86.
Chapter 4 is where the action is, as most campagins run in the verge and so it gets the most detail in this book a whopping 140 odd pages running from 87 to 232!
Chapter 5 is where details on using the main Alternity rulebooks to make new characters for the setting is based, it runs from pages 233 to the index at page 254, most of this would just be used as ideas and guidelines when converting to D20 Modern/Future.
Hope this Helps a bit!
"The Lighthouse" accessory 2804 goes into through details on the huge mobile spacestation, which secretly houses something inside it, I shant spoil the suprise for you :D it only had a two page write up in the core setting book, 64 pages and maps in this book.
"Alien Compendium" accessory 2805 lists loads of creatures from the Verge, based on which planet it is on, so no hunting through the book for all creatures that live on one planet, as they are all entered into a single chapter! Now if only every creature book was set the same way.....
"The Last Warhulk" 2813 a 64 page adventure, detailing a huge starship running on automatic, hellbent on finishing it's last programed mission, fighting a war it has never been told had finished!
"Planet of Darkness" 11328 another 64 page adventure based in the Oberon star system featuring shady dealings and even pitts the players against a Stellar Nation!
"Outbound an Explorer's Guidebook" 11339 a 96 page accessory, which title says it all really! new worlds and a guide on exploration based campaigns.
"Kilck Clack" a 32 page adventure that is considered one of the best done for this setting..... it explores in more detail the dangerous events that happened at Hammers Star..... events which will lead into war.......
and finally the last book I have in this range, though there are more which I have yet to get....
"Star Compendium" 11371, this book details several systems and planets which have only had passing references made or are new.
check out this site for more details on what is available
I just hope someday I can get thd Dark Matter books and the following...
2809 Star*Drive Arms & Equipment Guide
02815 Star*Drive Threats From Beyond
11617 Star*Drive Alien Compendium 2: Exploration of 2503
11620 Star*Drive System Guide to Aegis
as those are the only 4 I'm missing from the complete Star*Drive collection
Thanks for the information! I'm glad to hear that it is not difficult to convert (as, well, i do like the d20 system...but that's all i've ever known, as i was exposed to roleplaying two years ago). thanks again!
Glad to help!
This final official product of the line is essential to completing the StarDrive collection and answers many of the mysteries set up in the previous books. I recommend it with great enthusiasm. One of my favorites.
Also check out Official StarDrive Fansite and Official Alternity Fansite for more info and resources.
Don't forget the Externals pdf, available at www.rpgnow.com
This final official product of the line is essential to completing the StarDrive collection and answers many of the mysteries set up in the previous books. I recommend it with great enthusiasm. One of my favorites.
Also check out Official StarDrive Fansite and Official Alternity Fansite for more info and resources.
Duh, I always forget that one :embarrass
You can find a lot of additional material at www.alternity.net including Action Check and Last Resort e-zines (who are BTW done very professionaly, with pro art)
I just hope someday I can get thd Dark Matter books and the following...
2809 Star*Drive Arms & Equipment Guide
02815 Star*Drive Threats From Beyond
11617 Star*Drive Alien Compendium 2: Exploration of 2503
11620 Star*Drive System Guide to Aegis
as those are the only 4 I'm missing from the complete Star*Drive collection
2809 is all crunch (ok there's maybe two pages of fluff)
11617 is very similar to it's predecessor albeit a good 30 pgs shorter
11620 is primarily fluff and has a really coooool poster (if you find a copy with intact) in back.
Check out nobleknight.com really large selection competitive prices and prompt shipping! They have Alternity stuff under TSR as publisher (which it was of course)
I have to agree with Dragan... Alternity still stands up as an excellent system I intend on keeping it as well as getting the D20 modern/future and playing them both. You definately haven't wasted money by purchasing the Stardrive setting as a resource for D20 modern/future games however.
Don't forget the Externals pdf, available at www.rpgnow.com
This final official product of the line is essential to completing the StarDrive collection and answers many of the mysteries set up in the previous books. I recommend it with great enthusiasm. One of my favorites.
Are you talking about the warships pdf by richard baker at alternity.com? I've never heard of an externals pdf and rpgnow seems to be a dead link
Please, me curious, very curious.Externals is a different product then the free download of Warships. It describes the real powers behind the External presence in the Verge. The mysteries of the klicks, kroath, magus, and others are revealed. Lots of cool details and flavor. I don't want to put any spoiler info here unless you request it.
This product is very important to rounding out the setting. Without it is like playing the original Star Wars trilogy minus Darth Vader.
And you check out the official Star Drive fansite www.tequilastarrise.net for more Star Drive goodness. I hope this link works... Official Star*Drive Fansite
I agree that I would keep the setting with good old fashioned Alternity. I've looked at D20 Future and for this setting, I'm just not impressed enough yet to make the change. If Wizard's was to do something new with the setting, like moving it forward rather than re-hashing all of the present material, I'd consider it. But honestly, I just don't feel that the d20 Modern rules accurately captures the gritty, or downright deadly, feel of this setting.
If you'd like some more info on the setting, I highly recommend checking out www.tequilastarrise.net This website is all about Star*Drive and even has up to date (real time, though some in game dates are "up to date" too) TVN news articles from around the Verge.
Chris Wilson
PS...Welcome to the campaign setting! It's a great setting, I think you'll enjoy it and I would recommend it to anyone that likes sci-fi.
The Alternity/Star*Drive is out-of-print. The electronic copies are available only for credit card customers. And though I would not hesitate to cheat and lie to my closest friends, for some strange reasons I would not download pirated copies of Star*Drive material.
If you consider that a good business marketing plan to revive and promote Star*Drive. I got two words for you ... [Donald Trump] You're fired.
Oh, look. The Apprentice: Book Smart vs. Street Smart is on.
As always, I find most of the people on the Wizard's forums to be...well...wizards.
I SAID, *I* don't want to see them rehash the same material over and over and would like to see them further the setting.
At any point did I say, "I want them to start at the end of Externals, December 2503, and move on without ever showing the original storyline?" No, and I know you're smart enough to know how to scroll up, I didn't.
But why would I bother to buy the same books that I already have? That is the point. Why would ANYONE buy the NEW books when they can go out and get the same books used for half the cost? Unless Wizard's wants to go further with the setting, there's no point.
Then look into how d20 completely castrates the setting by putting it into a sanitized hit point style of game...no. It's not worth it unless they want to do something with it. Star*Drive was the core setting for Alternity and was based around those rules. Guns don't kill players, Klicks with bioweakness fields kill players...especially when they get amazing hits doing mortal wounds. Limbs are lost, heroes die, the galaxy keeps moving on. The setting is gritty, dirty, and very lethal. d20 trivializes it into SpellJammer with machine guns.
A good GM can work around this. But with as few pages available to the setting in d20 Future, why would he/she? Buy the Star*Drive Campaign Setting used and just pick up the Alternity Players Handbook and GameMasters Guide along the way at the same time. You have a ton more info and you have less work to do.
My bit on the whole thing...
Chris Wilson
Ps...you have no problem cheating or lying to your friends? Do your friends know this? Do you have any friends left? Look further into your information before firering off assanine comments.
Then look into how d20 completely castrates the setting by putting it into a sanitized hit point style of game...no. It's not worth it unless they want to do something with it. Star*Drive was the core setting for Alternity and was based around those rules. Guns don't kill players, Klicks with bioweakness fields kill players...especially when they get amazing hits doing mortal wounds. Limbs are lost, heroes die, the galaxy keeps moving on. The setting is gritty, dirty, and very lethal. d20 trivializes it into SpellJammer with machine guns.
So, what you're saying is that Star*Drive is an Alternity-only intellectual property, correct? That it cannot and should not be played in any other game systems?
As I said, a good GM can work around this with some effort. Rather than bottling the setting like a new flavor of Pringles...even though we all know Pringles are nothing more than potato chips....they could have done something more with it. And should have.
If the setting were to move forward beyond what they have put out, I would then plunk down my money and buy it. I would buy the material, even though I know the story line, clear up to the new stuff (as in, buy it all...again). I would even convert my players over to the new system and give a good try.
Those couple of pages in d20 Future is NOT reintroducing the setting to a new generation. It's an F'ing jerk off to the fans of the original. An insult. Hasbrow has no intention of making it's present customers happy, it doesn't even want it's NEW customers happy. It wants to make money. I honestly doubt that it's RPG lines will live for long with this attitude, considering that Alternity outsold Star Wars (yes, that's true). I honestly believe that D&D survives because of it's age...they can regurgitate whatever they want, and D&D addicts will lap it up like antifreeze at a petting zoo.
I think the d20 system works well for D&D. But it pretty much sucks butt for sci-fi....unless it's Star Wars (which, we all know, really isn't sci-fi).
Chris Wilson
So, what you're saying is that Star*Drive is an Alternity-only intellectual property, correct? That it cannot and should not be played in any other game systems?
I don't recall him saying that at all. Synther doesn't believe the d20 system does the StarDrive setting justice. Simple as that. This is a sentiment I agree with. And to avoid further misinterpretation....
1. Playing d20 can be fun. Not as satisfying as Alternity in my opinion.
2. Star Drive can be played in whatever system that you like, including d20 or some homebrewed Pokemon card variation. Some like myself prefer using the original game system to run it.
3. It would be cool to see the expansion of Star*Drive material. Some of us Alternity diehards would convert the material back to Alternity where necessary.
I think the d20 system works well for D&D. But it pretty much sucks butt for sci-fi....unless it's Star Wars (which, we all know, really isn't sci-fi).
I disagree. WotC may not get it right, but d20 publishers like Mongoose might.
I don't recall him saying that at all. Synther doesn't believe the d20 system does the StarDrive setting justice. Simple as that. This is a sentiment I agree with. And to avoid further misinterpretation....
1. Playing d20 can be fun. Not as satisfying as Alternity in my opinion.
2. Star Drive can be played in whatever system that you like, including d20 or some homebrewed Pokemon card variation. Some like myself prefer using the original game system to run it.
3. It would be cool to see the expansion of Star*Drive material. Some of us Alternity diehards would convert the material back to Alternity where necessary.
Yes, thank you. That sums it up rather well. As for other d20 publishers getting it right...well, that won't happen. Wizard's refuses to release Star*Drive for third party interpretation...likewise, they still hold onto Alternity with a death grip as well. Regardless, I don't see d20 doing a good job on Star*Drive without a very extreme revamp of the rules. Though, I admit, this is a possibility...it just hasn't been done. D20 Modern certainly did NOT do this. Work for a Dark Matter Campaign? Hmm...maybe. I could see it pulling it off...though, I honestly never really got into Dark Matter, so I could be wrong. But pulling it off as a Star*Drive Campaign? No way. Simply not violent/dirty/kick-em-in-the-jimmy-and-ask-for-more gritty enough. The system just doesn't cover it. It seriously wusses out.
Chris Wilson
The first part of the d20 rules that require a decent revamping would be the Hit Point system. It is terribly unrealistic and grossly inadequate for a good Star*Drive game. This would have to be one of the single most important revamps that would be required.
The weapons rules would likewise need to be slightly worked over, since they are far too linear as is. The initiative system, while functional for D&D, is completely unusable for Star*Drive in my opinion. The system would have to be altered to break the round down into 4 independant actions that happen simultaneously. The rules for spacecraft are a joke and would have to be severely overhauled from the crappy rules that were included in the Star Wars RPG.
These would be good places to start. And since this is just a start, I don't see why a GM would want to put that much work into it to make the game run the way it should, when they could just buy the Alternity core books used.
Chris Wilson
The first part of the d20 rules that require a decent revamping would be the Hit Point system. It is terribly unrealistic and grossly inadequate for a good Star*Drive game. This would have to be one of the single most important revamps that would be required.
So even though with the modification of the massive damage threshold, you still won't buy it?
What health system would you suggest? VP/WP? Damage Saving Throw (aka Injury System, Unearthed Arcana)?
The weapons rules would likewise need to be slightly worked over, since they are far too linear as is.
Linear? The damage varies widely, not -- IMHO -- linear as Spycraft weapon damage (e.g., Xd6 + 2).
The initiative system, while functional for D&D, is completely unusable for Star*Drive in my opinion. The system would have to be altered to break the round down into 4 independant actions that happen simultaneously.
Just curious, what are the 4 independent actions?
The rules for spacecraft are a joke and would have to be severely overhauled from the crappy rules that were included in the Star Wars RPG.
IMHO, that's a pretty good ruleset, but JD Wiker mentioned that his work for d20 Future was heavily edited, I thought with reference to Warship, an Alternity/Star*Drive electronic supplement. Correct me if I'm wrong.
These would be good places to start. And since this is just a start, I don't see why a GM would want to put that much work into it to make the game run the way it should, when they could just buy the Alternity core books used.
Not many rulebooks to go around. Ergo limited number of fans. Not that I'm condoning ... what we err, emotionally discussed earlier.
And personally, I like d20 Modern.
So even though with the modification of the massive damage threshold, you still won't buy it?
What health system would you suggest? VP/WP? Damage Saving Throw (aka Injury System, Unearthed Arcana)?
The addition of massive damage threshold really isn't a new idea to d20 games. In fact, this idea in one form or another has been around in D&D for a long time. Massive Damage does an ok job of simulating an amazing hit on a target, but does little more than that.
The hit point system does an ok (kind of) job of showing wounds and mortal damage. It does a horrible job of showing fatigue or stun damage. This kind of damage usually effects attributes directly, which is not a good way of handling it. Disease could directly affect attributes, but there would be an onset time effecting the fatigue and/or stun damage first.
Linear? The damage varies widely, not -- IMHO -- linear as Spycraft weapon damage (e.g., Xd6 + 2).
No, it doesn't. Said gun that does 2d6 damage, ALWAYS does 2d6 damage. You may get a lucky hit and get to add a x2 to it, but in effect, it does no good at showing exactly HOW good you did.
Just curious, what are the 4 independent actions?
The round should be broken up into 4 seperate parts. Players can see what parts they can act in based on their roll and the number of actions that they have (the max can not be more than 4). All actions that take place in a part act simultaneously. At the end of the round, all initiative is rolled again rather than sticking with one initiative roll throughout the entire combat round.
IMHO, that's a pretty good ruleset, but JD Wiker mentioned that his work for d20 Future was heavily edited, I thought with reference to Warship, an Alternity/Star*Drive electronic supplement. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It had references to the Warships supplement, but in my opion, Warships wasn't that great either. Though, I know that there are Alternity players out there that like it. I'm just saying that I prefer the ruleset in the GMG and Starships. I think the rules are simplified and, at the same time, to overwhelming. While it is possible to run a crew of a large cruiser, it also makes it possible to run extremely large scale battles in a very simplified matter. Getting down to the nitty gritty of a standard 6 player group, it leaves a lot of the danger of explosive decompression (one of my favorites), loss of power, etc that was integral to the previous rules. It becomes more of a tabletop war game than an RPG, something I hope to avoid. RPGs should not *require* you to use miniatures, but these types of rules almost force it. Just like D&D forces you to use miniatures or else you can not properly figure out when an AoO happens. Blech!
Not many rulebooks to go around. Ergo limited number of fans. Not that I'm condoning ... what we err, emotionally discussed earlier.
And personally, I like d20 Modern.
I can see your point here. There is a limited supply of used Alternity corebooks to go around. Which makes the purchasing of the ESDs that much more appealing. Fans of the Alternity setting will likely already have the Campaign Setting, but new players are going to want search this information out. The ESDs available on rpgnow.com allow that to happen. The information that was included in d20 Future wasn't even a good summary.
Chris Wilson
The addition of massive damage threshold really isn't a new idea to d20 games. In fact, this idea in one form or another has been around in D&D for a long time. Massive Damage does an ok job of simulating an amazing hit on a target, but does little more than that.
Depends on how amazing the hit is. But unlike D&D version where the threshold is at 50 and a failed Fort save means you're dead, threshold depends on your Con score (though you can lower it to 10 for a more lethal game). And a failed Fort save from lethal hit means you dropped to -1 and dying. A failed Fort save from nonlethal hit means you dropped to 0 and KO (unconscious).
The hit point system does an ok (kind of) job of showing wounds and mortal damage. It does a horrible job of showing fatigue or stun damage. This kind of damage usually effects attributes directly, which is not a good way of handling it. Disease could directly affect attributes, but there would be an onset time effecting the fatigue and/or stun damage first.
And how do you wish to handle this? Use the VP/WP system? Or do you have something else in mind?
No, it doesn't. Said gun that does 2d6 damage, ALWAYS does 2d6 damage. You may get a lucky hit and get to add a x2 to it, but in effect, it does no good at showing exactly HOW good you did.
Forgive me, but I'm not following.
The round should be broken up into 4 seperate parts. Players can see what parts they can act in based on their roll and the number of actions that they have (the max can not be more than 4). All actions that take place in a part act simultaneously. At the end of the round, all initiative is rolled again rather than sticking with one initiative roll throughout the entire combat round.
I'm reminded of FASA's different phases of a turn (initiative, move, ranged attack, melee attack, recover, etc.). May work on boardgames or wargames (I'm a BattleTech fan), but this may not sit well with roleplayers.
It had references to the Warships supplement, but in my opion, Warships wasn't that great either. Though, I know that there are Alternity players out there that like it. I'm just saying that I prefer the ruleset in the GMG and Starships. I think the rules are simplified and, at the same time, to overwhelming. While it is possible to run a crew of a large cruiser, it also makes it possible to run extremely large scale battles in a very simplified matter. Getting down to the nitty gritty of a standard 6 player group, it leaves a lot of the danger of explosive decompression (one of my favorites), loss of power, etc that was integral to the previous rules. It becomes more of a tabletop war game than an RPG, something I hope to avoid. RPGs should not *require* you to use miniatures, but these types of rules almost force it. Just like D&D forces you to use miniatures or else you can not properly figure out when an AoO happens. Blech!
Hmm. A lot of people feel that way but not to me. Must be the old-school wargamer in me. I'm all for toning down the map-n-counter rules material, but not a complete ban.
The information that was included in d20 Future wasn't even a good summary.
True. Which is why I want to petition for a full-sized Star*Drive campaign setting book for d20 Future. But before we do that, I think we may need a second volume of d20 Future. They tried to cram so many futuristic elements in such a book thinner than d20 Modern Core Rulebook that more than some elements didn't get in-depth treatment. Kinda like a toolbox missing a few wrenches.
And how do you wish to handle this? Use the VP/WP system? Or do you have something else in mind?
Forgive me, but I'm not following.
The hit points could be broken down into different types. If Hit Points themselves represented wounds and mortals (-1 to -10), then you might have another set that would be half of the total Hit Points for stun/fatigue damage that worked the same way. So, if you have a total of 10 Hit Points, you would have 5 Fatigue Points. At -1 to -10, the fatigue points could become stun. Once at -10, all further damage could be transferred directly to the Hit Point total and the process could start again. Or something. I really haven't given it enough thought to come up with something viable since I presently don't have plans to use d20 rules.
The damage ratings for weapons in d20 are always static. You might have a 9mm pistol that does 2d6 damage (just an abstract, I don't have any books in front of me at the moment). On a critical success, that weapon my do x2 damage. So, if you rolled a total of 6hp of damage, on a crit it would be 12hp. Other than that, the damage is static all the time. In Alternity, the weapons always had three different damage ratings to show just how good you did. This gave for a much more varied combat experience...and much more realistic when combined with the fatigue/stun/wound/mortal point system.
True. Which is why I want to petition for a full-sized Star*Drive campaign setting book for d20 Future. But before we do that, I think we may need a second volume of d20 Future. They tried to cram so many futuristic elements in such a book thinner than d20 Modern Core Rulebook that more than some elements didn't get in-depth treatment. Kinda like a toolbox missing a few wrenches.
And I agree. I would totally be up for a new, full sized Star*Drive Campaign Setting book. However, rather than just ending said book with the events of 2501, they should do the book from 2501 clear to 2504. This way, the book could be up to date with what was already put out and the setting could then move forward. Rehashing the same material all over again solves nothing more than to do what has already been done to the setting: Make it stagnant.
Chris Wilson
Chris Wilson
And I agree. I would totally be up for a new, full sized Star*Drive Campaign Setting book. However, rather than just ending said book with the events of 2501, they should do the book from 2501 clear to 2504. This way, the book could be up to date with what was already put out and the setting could then move forward. Rehashing the same material all over again solves nothing more than to do what has already been done to the setting: Make it stagnant.
Considering the TVN reports you've filed lately, it hardly sounds stagnant!
However, I agree that a new edition of the campaign setting would do well to extend beyond the old one. But not just in terms of extending the timeline. I'd like to see more of the systems in the Verge laid out in greater detail. I'd also like to see more system-specific guides, akin to the one produced for Aegis.
As for the mechanics of Alternity, it's definitely the right tool for modern and futuristic settings -- for all the reasons you've described in this thread. If it had gotten more extensive play and been allowed to grow and be finetuned, I think you would have seen its few flaws, such as FX, cleaned up. Instead, I'm afraid most gamers will spend the next few years continuing to struggle to patch d20 into a job is was fundamentally unsuited for.
Instead, I'm afraid most gamers will spend the next few years continuing to struggle to patch d20 into a job is was fundamentally unsuited for.
Well said. Too much work to make d20 work right, especially when Alternity does it so well.
Critical hits represent the different damage severities well, especially with the ability to improve the critical threat range of your weapons. The Massive Damage Threshold rules make any weapon hit potentially lethal, and critical hits doubly so, and negative hit points are a very good facsimile of Mortal damage.
If you want Stun damage, use D&D's subdual damage rules instead of Modern's non-lethal damage, and then use the same massive damage threshold. If you really must have specific Fatigue damage, such a system would not be difficult to put in place.
I really fail to see how people can say d20 Modern does such a poor job of replacing Alternity for the Dark*Matter and Star*Drive campaign settings. I'll agree that D&D would be a poor fit, but the d20 Modern rules are really well-designed for the kind of action you'd expect in a Star*Drive campaign.
It's more of a "if it aint broke then don't fix it" feeling. I'm sure someone could run StarDrive or DarkMatter with d20 Modern and have a great time doing it. Personally I think the Alternity rules are perfect for these settings and don't feel a need to convert them to d20 Modern, which by comparison doesn't match up. All my opinion of course. People should free to play whatever they like with whatever rules they like. When I gamemaster I use Alternity exclusively but I play d20 in other people's games. I have fun both ways.
Very well said. I know that I personally will (if my group would ever play Star*Drive) use d20 Modern, but this is also because I don't have the money to get the Alternity rules. I also know the d20 system very well, and that is all my group plays (AKA, DnD, SAS, d20 Modern). But, like you said, which ever one floats your boat. It's far easier to use the system that you're most comfortable with than it is to try and use a new one just because it's the flavor of the year.
I have both d20 and Alternity, and I like Alternity much better.