In Gaz1, we are introduced to the churches of Karameikos, Traladara, and the cult of Halav. Both of the churches come across as being human institutions, largely divorced from any sort of "specific" Immortal connections. IE, they represent a system of beliefs and mores of perceived "ideal" human behavior, but are not really involved with particular Immortals per se.
Gaz2 sort of continues with this philosophy, with the tenets of the Eternal Truth, as set forth by Al-Kalim. They make specific reference to "reverencing the Immortal Guardians", but are still largely just a set of dogma to live by. Gaz4 has the Eternal Truth and the People's Temple; Gaz5 has the Treekeepers (with little reference to specific patronage of Ilsundal or Mealiden as its tenets- though they are obviously and outright named as being involved with the elves).
Gaz6 is where the shift in philosophy begins, I think. The dwarves are given a monotheistic religion of Kagyar worship (essentially). Gaz7 brings in the powerful influences of the Asgardian pantheon (the merits of which are debatable, but the oddity is that it ignored previously established "religions" in the Northern Reaches- those given in X3: Curse of Xanathon and X13: Crown of Ancient Glory).
Gaz8 gets back to the "roots" a bit- the halflings religion revolves more around Blackflame and clan politics than the High Heroes, for example. Gaz9 has several religious philosophies- Dainrouw, Minrothism, and... err... there's one or two others. Most of them are closely associated with one Immortal or more, but seem more akin to the "philosophical" aspect of Gaz1 than singular Immortal worship. Other supplements vary widely between the two practices.
The point I'm getting at is that I tend to prefer the former approach- ie, religious hierarchies that are more firmly in the hands of the mortals who create them- as opposed to organizations that are strongly (and directly) influenced by the Immortals who they "worship". I'd much rather see a church that is founded upon certain principles and guided by mortal hands, than to see the Immortals contacting mortals and instilling them with their ideas and dreams and furthering their plots.
It seems to me that the more recent Mystara products began to have far too much Immortal meddling on the planet than the earlier ones- shades of so many other AD&D worlds- Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc. Sort of genericizes Mystara a bit too much to my tastes.
A couple of questions for you all then-
1) First off, what do you think? More Immortal intervention on Mystara? Less? Just enough as is?
2) Has anyone done any more "fleshing out" of the various churches and things than was done in the Gazetteers? (A development/expansion of the Church of Thyatis along the lines of the Church of Karameikos in Gaz1 comes to mind).?
A couple of questions for you all then-
1) First off, what do you think? More Immortal intervention on Mystara? Less? Just enough as is?
2) Has anyone done any more "fleshing out" of the various churches and things than was done in the Gazetteers? (A development/expansion of the Church of Thyatis along the lines of the Church of Karameikos in Gaz1 comes to mind).?
I think the maximum level of Immortal intervention has been reached in WotI. It should never go beyond that level, and there cannot be a WotI every year.
For the generalist vs. specialist priesthood, I would try to keep from excesses -- i.e., the Church of Traladara obviously sets some behavior code for its adherents, but this doesn't mean it's a philosophical church. As it worships three different, though allied, Immortals, it's quite natural that a church philosophy would be created that in some ways mediates between the different beliefs.
Of course the Dwarves or the Shadow Elves have less need for such mediation, since they worship a single Immortal, but most nations have a more or less large pantheon (think the Savage Coast nations or Thyatis).
IMO, most churches are Pantheist, that is they worship a group of Immortal, with a given philosophy that tries to integrate the teachings of the pantheon members (e.g., C.of Thyatis, Karameikos, Traladara, etc.). Some churches are Monotheist, so they simply put forth their Immortal's belief (e.g., Heldannic Order, dwarven priests of Kagyar, SE shamans).
Some fall somewhere in the middle -- perhaps they have a major Immortal patron, but consider several lesser patrons (e.g., the Church of Narvaez, or the Treekeepers of Alfheim, or the Temple of Chaos), or they are collections of specialist priests whose patrons share a common set of beliefs and interests (e.g., the ``churches'' of the Northern Reaches).
Sometimes an Immortal (or some of his followers) may branch out from a Pantheist church to create his own cult or splinter sect (e.g. the Cult of Halav or the HK), or may simply create a sect within the main church.
Much less common would be the churches of a Philosophy, i.e. those who simply worship Law, Neutrality or Chaos. Indeed, even the Temple of Chaos is not really a church of Philosophers, but rather a Pantheist church dominated by the specialist priests of Bozdogan.
The Church of Karameikos is mid-way between pantheist and philosophical (it was retrofitted with a pantheon, even though originally GAZ1 did not provide one).
The People's Temple of Ierendi is probably the best example of a philosophical church -- they do not even worship Immortals, but they still acknowledge Immortals to some extent.
For example, both Kagyar and Rafiel are crucial for the development of Dwarves and Shadow Elves, respectively. So it makes sense that there would be more immortal intervention there. This is not the case, for example, in Ethengar (where the immortals are less central) or Minrothad (which I consider a rather atheistic culture in all but name, BTW).
You also have the followers (read any person of that faith) of these churches/pantheons that turn to the Immortal that is patron of the area in which their need is. For example, in Karameikos a follower of the Church of Traladara might pray to Halav for victory for the band of men that left town to find and kill the orcs that have raided a nearby homestead, and then pray to Chardastes for their child that has chicken-pox.
Now, on the other hand, each Immortal has his or her own particular agendas. It can be personal in nature, regarding his interests (patronage), involving the advancement of his Sphere of Power, thwarting an enemy's plot, etc. The Immortal does these things through his devoted followers, the clerics. Afterall, why would an Immortal bestow the divine ability to cast spells just to let the cleric do whatever he felt or even what his church superior told him to do (and that superior could be a cleric of a different Immortal).
I also think a cleric would favour the Immortal that best relates to the cleric's own motivation in becoming a cleric. I mean, clerics become clerics because of a strong desire to accomplish or share something; the cleric connects with something and that becomes the driving force to be involved. The cleric places an importance on something, and more times than not, that something will match up with at least one of his Immortal's patronages.
I guess what I'm saying is that the churches and organisations operate on at least two levels, a broader "communal" level, and a more specific "ministry" level. The organisation has a communal duty and the individual cleric has a more defined ministry relating to his "call" and the Immortal that gives him his "blessings" (aka spells ;) ). These occur at the same time.
Now, connecting with Cthulhudrew's thoughts, if there is one thing humans love to create, it is a power structure. People like to have people under them. Thus the human development of a heirarchy system in these churches. Like he said:
religious hierarchies that are more firmly in the hands of the mortals who create them
People also like tradition and elaborate ceremonies to demonstrate their importance. The Immortals themselves did not institute these systems, rituals, etc., but still influence the members when and as their needs require.
1) First off, what do you think? More Immortal intervention on Mystara? Less? Just enough as is?
"Intervention" should be scarse and small; there are other Immortals monitoring this. However, I think "influence" is in many cases constant yet slight. It's all just MHO, but works out very well IMCs.
2) Has anyone done any more "fleshing out" of the various churches and things than was done in the Gazetteers? (A development/expansion of the Church of Thyatis along the lines of the Church of Karameikos in Gaz1 comes to mind).?
Unfortunately, no, but I'd love to see it.
2) Has anyone done any more "fleshing out" of the various churches and things than was done in the Gazetteers? (A development/expansion of the Church of Thyatis along the lines of the Church of Karameikos in Gaz1 comes to mind).?
Giulio (aka Capt. Scaevola) did a great work on Thyatian religion. Here is the original version:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/7211/Thyatis/Annex/Religion.htm
There was an extended version, but it was lost in the infamous geocities plague
However, it is a version heavily based on Immortal worship, so it may not be what you're looking for.
Even within a single church like the Church of Karameikos, I think there are priests praying to gods and priests following a specific "ethos", but both are granted spells by their beliefs.
I'd say that in the beginning the religious beliefs were a bit vague because the writers weren't probably accustomed with the Mystaran pantheon, which was created step by step with the various gazetteers. That's why we have a church like that of Traladara which worships 3 immortals standing side by side with another (CoKarameikos) which doesn't mention any immortal at all (and it's much later "updated" by Bruce Heard who obviously didn't like the idea of a church without immortal patrons).
Then we're introduced to the Ylari religion which is closely based upon Islam, but instead of a single Allah they worship the Immortal Guardians. Even in this case however, it's clearly stated in GAZ2 that most believers pray Al-Kalim as the Great Prophet and not the Immortal Guardians themselves, prolly because Al-Kalim is the only means of access to the Immortals.
And so on and on...
That's the nice side of Mystara: it's not all black and white, but we've got some very elaborate and complex religions to play with.
The appendix I'm working on lists all of the organized churches and temples of Mystara, and there are many. So far these have been mentioned:
Antalian Cult (based upon info in GAZ7)
Church of Bellayne (SC)
Church of Darokin (GAZ11)
Church of Essuria (X11)
Church of Eusdria (SC)
Church of Karameikos (GAZ1)
Church of Narvaez (SC)
Church of Renardie (SC)
Church of Thyatis (GAZ1,5)
Church of Traladara (GAZ1)
Church of Universal Harmony (GAZ8)
Dwarvish Cult of Halav (based upon info in GAZ6)
Eternal Truth (GAZ2)
People's Temple (GAZ4)
Temple of Chaos (X5)
Temple of Nimmur (SC)
Temple of Rad (GAZ3)
Temple of Rafiel (GAZ13)
Obviously each immortal has shrines and temples in various regions of the world, but the churches above mentioned are the ones mentioned and detailed in all canon sources (and most of them are pantheistic faiths).
It's worthy to mention that there are also some philosophies like Augrism, Elendaen, Dainrouw and Minrothism (all coming from GAZ9) followed in Mystara, and I'd imagine they're religions preached by clerics.
As for immortal intervention, I'm thinking it's mostly indirect, with rare exceptions such as WotI, Rad policy in Glantri and Thanatos posing as Oesterhaus. Immortals influence the Prime through omens and mostly through the actions of their followers, but they refrain from direct intervention to avoid heavy punishments if they're caught. And that's the way I like it to be! ;)
The appendix I'm working on lists all of the organized churches and temples of Mystara, and there are many. So far these have been mentioned:
Antalian Cult (based upon info in GAZ7)
Church of Bellayne (SC)
Church of Darokin (GAZ11)
Church of Essuria (X11)
Church of Eusdria (SC)
Church of Karameikos (GAZ1)
Church of Narvaez (SC)
Church of Renardie (SC)
Church of Thyatis (GAZ1,5)
Church of Traladara (GAZ1)
Church of Universal Harmony (GAZ8)
Dwarvish Cult of Halav (based upon info in GAZ6)
Eternal Truth (GAZ2)
People's Temple (GAZ4)
Temple of Chaos (X5)
Temple of Nimmur (SC)
Temple of Rad (GAZ3)
Temple of Rafiel (GAZ13)
Uhm, I suppose you meant the Dwarvish cult of Kagyar and the (Traladaran) Cult of Halav!
I'd add at least:
- the Druidic hierarchy (in the Savage Coast, and perhaps a different one in Norwold) (SC, CM1)
- the Temple of Razud (VotPA, in Ambur)
- there is a cult of Halav in the City-States (or at least in Slagovich), with a knightly order (VotPA)
I didn't remember there was a Temple of Razud, but now that you make me think of it, you're right. And since I gather it must be a structured church/order, then it's worth being listed.
I don't know a zilch about the Cult of Halav with its knightly order in the City States: I hope you'll refresh my memory when we'll cover that region.
AS for the Druidic Orders... uhm... interesting topic to think about, since they are INDEED structured with a specific hierarchy so they should be listed! Thanks for reminding me! ;)
I'm waiting for your comments on the hin deities worshipped in the Shires before jumping to Minrothad on the Italian Boards, you know? :P
AS for the Druidic Orders... uhm... interesting topic to think about, since they are INDEED structured with a specific hierarchy so they should be listed! Thanks for reminding me! ;)
I am VERY interested in reading anything any board users might have done for their campaigns concerning Druidic circles, hierarchy etc. in the Known World since this is something I know practically nothing of, and I have hardly found any canon material on this...
:-) Jesper
I didn't remember there was a Temple of Razud, but now that you make me think of it, you're right. And since I gather it must be a structured church/order, then it's worth being listed.
It's the temple which Talasar Ecbashur belongs to. They're noteworthy for their recruiting technique: they buy prospective clerics at the slave market, apparently!
I don't know a zilch about the Cult of Halav with its knightly order in the City States: I hope you'll refresh my memory when we'll cover that region.
See VotPA article on Slagovich. Count Stavro of Bistr is the leader of the Knights of Halav, and uncle of the Margrave of Slagovich. Apparently the local church worships Halav rather than the Traladaran Three (as the CoT), as Petra and Zirchev are not mentioned as Immortal patrons of the City-States.
AS for the Druidic Orders... uhm... interesting topic to think about, since they are INDEED structured with a specific hierarchy so they should be listed! Thanks for reminding me! ;)
You're welcome.
Jesper -- there's little indeed on Druids anywhere on Mystara. The Savage Coast book has most information.
There's a full hierarchy on the SC, with Great Druid Maud daughter of Trestana. She is the leader of the Robrenn druid, but also of those druids that live in Bosque de las Sombras and other baronial woodlands and those of Jibarù. These druids also have an order of Knights (Druidic Defender).
CM1 tellls us that there is a Druidic order in Norwold, and K:KoA says that ``true'' druids are not native to the Known World.
Tarn Oakleaf is the spokesman of the Norwold druids, but he isn't the leader.
I'm waiting for your comments on the hin deities worshipped in the Shires before jumping to Minrothad on the Italian Boards, you know? :P
Done. Sorry, I didn't see the message when you posted it: making new threads would have helped!
Even within a single church like the Church of Karameikos, I think there are priests praying to gods and priests following a specific "ethos", but both are granted spells by their beliefs.
(Please note I have spoken largely with my tongue in my cheek) ;)
This is something I have some problems with. One is granted spells by a being with the power to do so, the other gains just as much power, and for no other reason than "he has beliefs". Practically everybody has beliefs, even strong ones. How is a person with "beliefs" differentiated from a person who is strongly "opinionated".
The main issue I have with this, is that when you allow someone to gain identical abilities as one who devotes themselves to a superior being and is accountable to that being, you say "you can have the power that the Immortals grant if you have enough faith in your own personal ideals, and if that doesn't win you over, you don't even have to be accountable to any authority. You can wield power like those who have dedicated their lives to the arcane studies, without the studies!"
As an inhabitant of Mystara, why would anybody follow an Immortal? If you gain the exact same benefits through a man-made belief system, the Immortals are not needed at all. There is nothing the Immortals could do for us that our own great men of faith couldn't do for us, and who cares if the Immortals are offended, nobody needs to follow them anyhow.
Now, I know I've exaggerated a bit, but it was just to make my point a little clearer. Rebuttals?
(Please note I have spoken largely with my tongue in my cheek) ;)
This is something I have some problems with. One is granted spells by a being with the power to do so, the other gains just as much power, and for no other reason than "he has beliefs". Practically everybody has beliefs, even strong ones. How is a person with "beliefs" differentiated from a person who is strongly "opinionated".
The main issue I have with this, is that when you allow someone to gain identical abilities as one who devotes themselves to a superior being and is accountable to that being, you say "you can have the power that the Immortals grant if you have enough faith in your own personal ideals, and if that doesn't win you over, you don't even have to be accountable to any authority. You can wield power like those who have dedicated their lives to the arcane studies, without the studies!"
As an inhabitant of Mystara, why would anybody follow an Immortal? If you gain the exact same benefits through a man-made belief system, the Immortals are not needed at all. There is nothing the Immortals could do for us that our own great men of faith couldn't do for us, and who cares if the Immortals are offended, nobody needs to follow them anyhow.
Now, I know I've exaggerated a bit, but it was just to make my point a little clearer. Rebuttals?
Interesting debate and I have a few comments. IMC we had a PC priest once, who followed the ideal of Neutral - i.e. worshipped "an alignment" - rather than an immortal. It caused some problems, mainly because it was hard to determine: who are the natural allies and enemies of such a faith, how does it fit into the political systems of the world, how do you attone for sinning against a principle?, how is to say WHAT is right and wrong when following and worshipping a principle etc.
On the other hand, I have always like that the Church of Karameikos was more of a moral church than a church worshipping an immortal (or several). I had an idea, while I read Hugin's comment:
Is it not possible that a person can worship an alignment in much the same way as an immortal dedicates him- or herself to one of the five spheres? If the immortals can see a mortal showing the same dedication towards an alignment, might they not respect that dedication and - as an act of sympathy or acknowledgement - grant that individual mortal some spells?
Seems to me that the immortals serve the spheres and benefit from it - could the same not be the case for mortals serving the alignments?
:-) Jesper
You're right: if I allow clerics who gain powers simply by worshipping an Alignment, then what's the deal in worshipping an Immortal? Well, I'd say the basic tenets are the same: in game terms, if you don't follow the rules, you lose you spells either way (in the first case because you realise you have failed your ideals and so your self-confidence or faith crumbles, and in the second case because the deity herself stops to grant you divine powers - in both cases it's a DM's call, obviously).
Well, then I might just follow an Alignment and avoid all those rules concerning the what-to-dos and what-nots of each Immortal, right? I'd say you're deadly wrong! In fact, a cleric following an Ethos is even more forced to stay true to his beliefs: it's a matter of ideals. You gain power because you BELIEVE in some ideals. When you break your ideals and go against them, it's your mind and your soul that punish you!
For example, if I'm a Lawful Cleric following Lawful tenets like "Never harm women" and one day I harm one (by accident or willingly), I IMMEDIATELY think of myself as a sinner, and this disqualifies me from gaining any spell untill I've atoned for my sin.
Now the fault in this reasoning lies in the Ethos followed. I mean, when it comes to Lawful churches, it's pretty straightforward to understand when the moral is followed or not. But what about NEUTRAL or CHAOTIC faiths? When does a cleric worshipping the Neutral ideology lose spells? or a Chaos-preacher? These are definitely impossible to tell.
For this reason I'd say that if the cleric is focused on worshipping LAW, he CAN get divine power from the essence of Law, or from his own soul. The link to this power is interrupted when he understands he has sinned against his moral code, so that's pretty easy to rule.
A person CANNOT however draw power by worshipping NEUTRALITY (we've got druidism for that, and they draw the raw magical power either from Nature or from Immortals) or CHAOS (simply because it's too damn difficult to decide when a person is doing Chaos' will or not!).
Alternatively, you might want to think about Churches worshipping SPHERES and not Alignments. This way they draw their power directly from the same source of the Immortals, bypassing the Immortals, but are likewise limited to certain actions and moral codes according to the Sphere's goals.
To conclude, you can understand that I have not yet made up my mind completely on this matter, but I am open to some "broader" points of view. :D
Now the fault in this reasoning lies in the Ethos followed. I mean, when it comes to Lawful churches, it's pretty straightforward to understand when the moral is followed or not. But what about NEUTRAL or CHAOTIC faiths? When does a cleric worshipping the Neutral ideology lose spells? or a Chaos-preacher? These are definitely impossible to tell.
I would not allow clerics of alignment to be only Lawful -- either it is possible to be a Philosopher of any alignment, or simply it is not possible to be a Philosopher.
That said, my idea is that fewer people are able to be Philosopher than Specialists, and fewer people are able to be Specialists than Pantheist because of belief restrictions: while it is quite difficult to make *all* the member of a pantheon angry with you at the same time, it is much more difficult to work with a single immortal -- in the first case, you may get away with a few infringement on a specific pantheon member's set of beliefs, while in the second your patron is the only way to get spells, so even a single broken taboo brings penalties.
Even more difficult is working with forces -- while your Immortal patron is endowed with rationality and perhaps was a mortal not so long ago, so he should be able to cope with the fact that you, his cleric, may not be perfect, and therefore will end the penalties after a suitable time (basically, he is giving you a punishment), and in any case may end it at any time if he needs to, a Force has no reason -- only the Philosopher belief (in something as abstract as Law, Chaos or Neutrality) allows him to support his powers.
Therefore, a specialist's or pantheist's faith may falter at times, but he will be able to recover -- he may even have no penalties at all, but it is not the same for the Philosopher, who will lose all his powers until he has fully restored his own belief (and this is usually impossible).
It's a damn difficult topic you brough up, Hugin.
Agreed! :D
Alternatively, you might want to think about Churches worshipping SPHERES and not Alignments. This way they draw their power directly from the same source of the Immortals, bypassing the Immortals, but are likewise limited to certain actions and moral codes according to the Sphere's goals.
That's why I did up the spell lists for the Spheres of Power. If someone really wanted to follow an alignment, they could serve the associated Sphere and also take the alignment domain from that Sphere. As you suggest, I also see the Spheres of the origin of the Immortal's powers.
To conclude, you can understand that I have not yet made up my mind completely on this matter, but I am open to some "broader" points of view. :D
You take the right oar and I'll take the left oar because it seems we're in the same boat. ;)
Nice thoughts there Agathokles. My only comments;
in the first case, you may get away with a few infringement on a specific pantheon member's set of beliefs, while in the second your patron is the only way to get spells, so even a single broken taboo brings penalties.
I don't think a single Immortal would cut you off from spells from some minor infractions or perhaps even one single major one (but it would depend). As you said, there is some understanding there. But how would a group bestow spells on a mortal. What happens when he casts commune and gets three different responses at the same time? ;)
I've been pretty busy these last few weeks working on finnishing my MA degree, but now its all over and I have more time for important things ;)
Religion and mythology have always been favorite topics of mine and Ive always been interested in how they should be applied to Mystara.
A couple of questions for you all then-
1) First off, what do you think? More Immortal intervention on Mystara? Less? Just enough as is?
I dont like Immortal intervention too much. One of the problems Ive found with it is that it makes the Immortals seem less divine and awe inspiring to the players, and more like bossy overpowered NPCs that the players love to hate. This is my experience from running scenarions such as the Blood Brethren Trilogy (HWA1-3) and WotI. The manner of which the invention is handled from the GM's side may affect this though; I may just not have done a good enough job presenting them
When it comes to intervention regarding churches, I tend to agree a little with both Cthulhudrew and DM. The human aspect of forming religions should be important. No immortals should have total control of what the morals believe or even what their clerics preach. Immortals should have some influence however. The way it works IMC is that no Immortal communicates directly with his clerics. What he can do is influence them through dreams, left for the cleric to interpret. Ofcourse, immortals being entities of great wisdom, they are pretty good and guessing how a dream will be interpreted. Still, mortals are known to surprise even the immortals themselves in their ingenuity.
Historical tradition, charismatic visionaries and immortal influence then, are all part of forming the religious philosophies of Mystara. The cool thing about giving the mortals more influence over the churches is that you can have rather nasty clerics walking around in the name of more sympathetic Immortals. This offers alot of roleplaying potential, which is an important factor to keep in mind when fleshing out any part of the setting. The movie/novel the Name of the Rose offers some good examples of Clerics (Monks) following a Good deity (God), yet coming out as real villains. It would be fun to have such NPCs in Mystara too.
One question here is shouldn't such characters lose their spells. Someone suggested that clerical magic should be powered by belief as in 3E. I disagree. In Mystara, the magic comes from the Spheres, chanelled through the Immortal worshipped. Faith has something to do with it, but it isn't the whole story. A Cleric losing his faith, should probably lose the ability to connect with his immortal, and thus also the sphere/magic. I'd say this explaination opens to the possibility of clerics worshipping a group of immortals rather than one, or even a sphere or philosophy connected with a sphere, but I prefer each cleric selecting a specific immortal.
Another idea I have on this topic is that clerics breaking their alignment should not automatically lose their spells. An immortal severing his ties with the Cleric is considered direct intervention. However, someone above the cleric in the church hierarchy may sever that clerics ties to his immortal. That leaves more room for human interraction, and it means a cleric can keep profane activities going on in secret without losing his spells. It also means that if lower clerics oppose a corrupt High Priest, the High Priest himself may bannish the lesser clerics, though if those clerics have broad support it will mean that the High Priest risks revealing himelf.
This last part may not fit with everyones understanding of canon, but I think I'm going to implement it right away. :D
2) Has anyone done any more "fleshing out" of the various churches and things than was done in the Gazetteers? (A development/expansion of the Church of Thyatis along the lines of the Church of Karameikos in Gaz1 comes to mind).?
The Gazetteers offer little direct information on the churches, but I feel that alot is implied about them, even if it is never spelled out.
* The KW countries are mainly influenced by RW European Medieval cultures, thus the churches should have many similarities to churches of these countries.
* The alignment system is based on Judeo-Christian values (according to G. Gygax anyways), and so good, lawful and neutral churches should have similarities in their philosophies and perhaps also other aspects to the corresponding RW religions.
* The presence of Immortals means religions are polytheistic. This is a major divergence from medieval European religion, so perhaps other aspects should be more similar. It is *perhaps* possible to compare Immortals to Catholic saints, though Immortals clearly have a more active role, and are subjects of direct worship. If they are compared to saints it also means that there must be something else there, perhaps simply the "Spheres" or the "Spheres of Life" (as opposed to the Sphere of Death=Entrophy), or even the Old Ones (if they are indeed known to mortals).
The above is more true when talking about the churches of Thyatis, Karameikos, Glantri (illegally, but still) and Darokin and less true when it comes to The Northern Reaches, Traladara, Ethengar, Ylaruam and the Demihuman nations. Ylaruam is in fact not so different with the exception of the obvious arabic influence.
One idea is to have direct comparisons with RW churhes:
* Karameikos - Roman Catholic. This fits pretty well with the philosphies described in Gaz 1, and also my personal visualization of the Church buildings, rituals etc.
* Thyatis - Greek Orthodox: This fits well with the comparisons with the Church of Karameikos which is derived from it, and the general byzantine culture of the country. I also see some arguments for having some roman influences for this church. The Church of Karameikos emphasizes forgiveness as a central aspect, so maybe the CoT is more strict, perhaps having an idea about Limbo as a sort of purgatory. The Emperor is also formally the head of the church, though this is only a symbolic role.
* Darokin - Lutheran/Calvinist/Methodist - At first I was opposed to Darokin having its own church, but using this model, I sort of liked having some protestant-like churches here. The Churches of Darokin are split into various fractions in accordance with Darokinian pluarlism, but are on relatively friendly terms. The Churches of Thyatis, Darokin, Traladara and others are also present and tolerated here
NOTE: The above comparisons are meant as guidelines only. This only means that the churches of these countries can be compared to RW counterparts in terms of rituals, appearance of church buildings, clerical outfits, and the general mentality conveyed only! I do not wish to offend anyones religion by making comparisons to the real world.
What immortals are followed?
The list in Dawn of the Emperors does not make alot of sense in terms of religion. Some of the immortals are clearly associated with other religions (Norse, Traladaran Ochaelan, Alphatian) and should not be associated with the "Western" churches IMO. However, I think a few other major Immortals from the WotI:Codex should be included. Afterall, the idea of having major immortals not be included in any of the major religions of the Known World doesnt make sense, does it? There seems to be a general consensus for including Ixion into the church of Thyatis for instance, even if he is not mentioned in DotE. Tyche and the Twelve Watchers should also be included IMO.
Differences between the Churches
In terms of immortals followed, I actually think the Churches of Thyatis, Karameikos and Darokin should allow worship of the same entities. The emphasis on some immortals above others may vary however. Bruce Heards list of Immortals for the Church of Karameikos may be seen as an indication to which immortals are central to that church, but other immortals from the "Known World Pantheon" may also be worshipped. I think Valerias should stay in the pantheon. DM has a point about her being chaotic, but WotI clearly states that her clerics may be of *any* alignment, even though lawful ones are rare. Most of her clerics in Karameikos are probably NG, and emphasize her *love* aspect, especially the non-sexual aspects of love. I'm less happy about Ilsundal and Kagyar being included, but there they are. Both the Church of Karameikos and the Church of Darokin put an emphasis on Asterius. In Thyatis OTOH, Vanya is the most popular immortal. IMC I have Khoronus as the official head of the pantheon, though that does not mean his popularity rivals those immortals. As Agathokles mentioned, temples to individual immortals exist, but IMO these should be compared to the Church of St. Thomas, the Church of the Virgin Mary etc. The building is dedicated to one Immortal, but worship of others within the pantheon is allowed.
Attitudes to other immortals
Religions seem to be much more tolerant in Mystara than in the RW. Worship of Norse, Traladaran, Demihuman and other pantheons is allowed in all of the countries above. There is no atheism on Mystara. Some people, such as the Glantrians do not consider the Immortals worthy of worship, but noone questions their existance. What I have done IMC is have clerics draw into question the allegainces of other immortals. The Immortals approved by the Church are guaranteed to be 100% not connected to Entrophy. However, other Immortals encountered may be suspected of being demons in disguise. I can see the Churches of thyatis, Karameikos and Darokin calling the patrons of Ethengar or the Northern Reaches into question.
*phew* long post. Comments?
Håvard
The human aspect of forming religions should be important. No immortals should have total control of what the morals believe or even what their clerics preach. Immortals should have some influence however. The way it works IMC is that no Immortal communicates directly with his clerics. What he can do is influence them through dreams, left for the cleric to interpret. Of course, immortals being entities of great wisdom, they are pretty good and guessing how a dream will be interpreted. Still, mortals are known to surprise even the immortals themselves in their ingenuity.
This is exactly what I mean by influence; via dreams and the divinations and guidance spells cast by the clerics, the Immortals deliver “their will” in the things that matter to them. But humans create most (and sometimes all) of the church structure, rituals, philosophies, and just about everything else related to the churches.
The greatest extant to which an Immortal would influence his followers would be if they were drifting into conflict with his most basic nature, and on a lesser degree, to try and persuade a follower into a particular quest that furthers one of the Immortal’s plots or that of the group. But, of course, there is no guarantee that the Immortal’s influence will work out as he had intended.
Historical tradition, charismatic visionaries and immortal influence then, are all part of forming the religious philosophies of Mystara.
To this you could sometimes add cultural tendencies, ruler intervention (from baron to emperor), changes due to perceived “competitions among the faiths” (i.e. other churches/cults), as well as the conditions of both the church system and the nation(s) in which they reside. This means there could be some variance between churches of the same faith in different regions.
I guess the Immortals probably view the actions and philosophies of the churches they are involved in as either “key elements” or “inconsequential”. What is of no consequence they leave entirely to the clergy, but trying to alter something that is key will attract the attention and influence of the Immortals. Naturally, this can become very complex when the church/cult includes many Immortals. Despite the fact that as “a Group” (Immortals who have banded together for some specific purpose or common goal - WotI) they all have individual, personal interests and goals.
An immortal severing his ties with the Cleric is considered direct intervention. However, someone above the cleric in the church hierarchy may sever that cleric’s ties to his immortal.
I do agree, but then wouldn’t the Immortal granting spells also be considered intervention. :P
An authority in the church hierarchy being capable of severing a lesser cleric of his connection to the source of his spells is very intriguing. I see it as a special ritual-spell requiring it be done in the church, etc., and maybe with more than one person. *wheels in the head go round and round*
Karameikos - Roman Catholic
Thyatis - Greek Orthodox
I agree with the Karameikos similarity, but I’m not sold on the Thyatis one. I was always under the impression that the Church of Thyatis was more pagan (i.e. like Rome before the conversion of the Emperor Constantine to Christianity). I my interpretation, religion was somewhat more personal in nature and open to new ideas (and Immortals), and also venerated ancestors. I’d think the Church of Karameikos might better fit Greek Orthodox, but that’s just IMHO. I could be way off, and easily. I know the Church of Karameikos was a slinter from the Church of Thyatis, so is it possibe the vision the founders of this church had was rejected in Thyatis thereby restricting it to Karameikos, and hence the name.
In this scenario, I also think the Church of Thyatis would easily accommodate chaotic Immortals due to the church’s nature. But both the Church of Karameikos and the Church of Traladara are much more structured and organized, lending itself better to lawful Immortals.
Make sense? Or is it all just round bananas! :D
Hey! Who doesn't want to sound important! ;)
Hey! Who doesn't want to sound important! ;)
:D You're absolutely right! I should start using fancy titles and such in my games.
And what ever happened to the city-guard phrase: "Halt! In the name of the Grand Duke!" etc. *LOL*
:-) Jesper
Anyway, you're all forgetting one thing that's written in WotI: direct Immortal intervention on the Prime is allowed only in these cases.
1. Sending Omens (through dreams or natural phenomenons)
2. Using artifacts to influence mortals
3. Punishing his own followers
4. Acting on behalf of the Council of Hierarchs or the Council of Mystara
5. Using Mortal Identities
So as you can see the Immortal CAN cast down heaven a pillar of fire to punish a cleric who's angered him so much. Obviously this is a metaphor: Immortals still CANNOT kill their own followers in this manner even if they displease or betray them, but they are allowed to maim or cripple them forever (provided the cleric is not already under direct protection of another immortal!).
For this reason, I don't see any problems with Immortals refusing to grant spells to unfaithful clerics: it's one of the things they can do freely as much as granting spells!
Also I don't believe a mortal could have the power to refuse spells to a member of the same order, or this way there would have been no opposition at all inside the clerical orders of Mystara if the High priest's word was considered the Law of the Immortals. ;)
Last thing: I tend to see the Church of Thyatis as a clear example of the Roman pantheon. Obviously there wasn't a "Church of Rome" before christianity took over, only single temples which worshipped single deities. But if all of them could have been comprised into one big polytheistic order, that would have reflected my idea of the Church of Thyatis ;)
IIRC the only monotheistic faiths in Mystara are demi-human faiths (Kagyar for dwarves, Rafiel for shadowelves and Garal for gnomes), with small human exceptions (the Rad is not really a "faith" more a "philosophy" but it could count, as much as Vanya for the Heldannic Knights). This means that Mystara is a polytheistic world: there are far too many immortals to stick just to one of them ;)
Oh and btw, MERRY XMAS AND A LUCKY NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY!
IIRC the only monotheistic faiths in Mystara are demi-human faiths (Kagyar for dwarves, Rafiel for shadowelves and Garal for gnomes), with small human exceptions (the Rad is not really a "faith" more a "philosophy" but it could count, as much as Vanya for the Heldannic Knights). This means that Mystara is a polytheistic world: there are far too many immortals to stick just to one of them ;)
It's true that few Mystarans are monotheists -- actually, strictly speaking none should be, as even the demihumans understand that other Immortals than their own exist, they just consider their own the only one that deserves worship.
However, several religions recognize a strong pantheon leader, or, just like the demihumans, follow a single racial/national patron. Some examples:
- Heldannic Knights -- Vanya
- Church of Narvaez -- Ixion
- Church of Renardie -- Korotiku/Saimpt Renard
- Church of Halav -- Halav
- Hutaakan clergy -- Pflarr
- Temple of Chaos -- Loki/Bozdogan
- Enduk religion -- Ixion/Idu
Even when a nation is not fully devoted to an Immortal, temples or orders of specific Immortals do appear:
- Temple of Forsetta
- Temple of the Spooming Nooga
- Cult of Halav
- Wings of Vanya
- Storm Soldiers
- the Minrothaddan religions
Therefore, I would argue that some degree of freedom exists in Mystara, so that pantheistic, specialist, and philosophical orders and priests may all appear.