Church of Thyatis - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Church of Thyatis

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Cthulhudrew
Dec 11, 2004 23:13:26 Some more thoughts on Mystara religion here, though a bit more specifically focused:

I've been thinking about the influence of religion as it relates to conquest and conversion, based on RW comparisons, and how that might have influenced cultures and conquests on Mystara.

Specifically, from the description of the Church of Karameikos in Gaz1, one of the chief tenets of this religion is: "That it is the responsibility of members... to bring the benefits of the church philosophy to the unbeliever, and to remain persistent even in hostile lands, so that the benefits of the church be denied to no one who desires them..."

Given that the CoK is a sect of the Church of Thyatis, founded in this spirit of missionistic teaching, one would presume that the CoT itself is a missionistic religion. That being the case, it seems to me that the colonial holdings of the Empire of Thyatis should/would be largely converted/missionist colonies- ie, the indigenous faiths of say, Ochalea (patron: Koryis) should have largely been supplanted since the conquest of that land in 0 AC (or at least since the rise of the CoT, if that came at a later date, which is likely).

In other words, the listed patron Immortals of many of the Thyatian colonial holdings should be the same as those recognized by the CoT, and not the "indigenous" faiths of the people- at least for the most part. (Certain areas, such as the Hinterlands- recent conquests- would obviously be still largely "pagan").

Of course, as happened in the RW, I'd imagine aspects of those indigenous religions were absorbed or modified to fit in to the CoT's philosophies in those lands, but they should still mostly fall under the same religious dogma as the CoT.

Anyone else have any thoughts about this?
#2
Hugin
Dec 13, 2004 22:33:01 Ya, I've pretty much got the same thoughts. However I do see each region being slightly unique in its religion since the Thyatians usually end up absorbing the local Immortals into it's pantheon and religious system. Of course, I also think the indigineous religious system gets skewed as it gets absorbed. Yup, I guess I'm just saying "I agree" :D
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 14, 2004 3:19:17 Actually I DONT agree with Cthulhudrew's vision of the Thyatian religious attitude towards its provinces. On the contrary, it seems to me that the only certainty that DotE gives us on the Thyatian policy concerning foreign faiths is that the empire tends to absorb and integrate the pantheons of the civilizations it conquers, rather than impose its own deities.
We know that in mainland Thyatis a variety of deities are worshipped, many of which are certainly not Thyatian in origin (DotE lists Odin, Thor, Halav, Diulanna and Koryis), so this is IMO a clue on the Thyatian openmindedness regarding foreign faiths. I believe they assimilate foreign deities and try to fit them into their whole Thyatian pantheon, giving them some Thyatian values, when this is appropriate (it even happens with Alphaks!) and the immortal's teachings don't go against the Thyatian interests.
This is IMHO in tune with the general political behaviour of the Empire, which doesn't crush its subjects to conform them to the "Thyatian lifestyle", but rather takes something from every culture to create a wider cultural base.

That's why the cult of Koryis is still very much active in Ochalea and Diulanna is widely worshipped by the Thratians of the Four Kingdoms.
#4
zombiegleemax
Dec 14, 2004 3:29:28 To elaborate further, the example of the Church of Karameikos that Andrew quoted is rather weak.

For one, we don't have a clue how the Church of Thyatis looks like, so we cannot compare anything.
Also, the CoK is Jowett's personal vision adapted to the Karameikan situation, and since he split from the Church of Thyatis this means there must be some pretty significant differences between the two.
Finally, the immortals which Bruce says are worshipped by the CoK (after GAZ1 didn't mention ANY and was rather portraying it as a more "philosophical" or "moral" church rather than a theistic one) are not native Karameikan immortals. Some were worshipped by the dwarvish and elvish minorities (Ilsundal and KAgyar), while the others (Valerias, Asterius and Vanya) are clearly Thyatian. However, Valerias is completely off the mark with the kind of Lawful mentality that is typical in the Church of Karameikos, so even Bruce makes some mistakes in his analysis.
I'd say that the CoK's pantheon was a later addition brought on to better suit the Thyatian folks in Karameikos, but Jowett's original idea was that of a Moral Church rather than a faith worshipping specific immortals. The situation and social environment forced him to slightly modify his teachings later (adding immortals to focus the attention of the faithful and to compete with the Church of Traladara), but IMO there are still many priests in the CoK who don't worship a specific deity but rather follow the Path of the Pure Soul (Lawfulness) as preached by the Patriarch.

All of this to say that the CoK is IMO a very particular case which shouldn't be taken as example to judge the mission and organisation of the Church of Thyatis (or of the Thyatian religious attitude).
#5
spellweaver
Dec 14, 2004 7:34:09 My worth:

I agree with DM on the analysis of both the Chuch/Empire of Thyatis and the Church of Karameikos. I have actually always found it refreshing that the CoK seemed to worship a moral code rather than a specific immortal - even if it gives some problems about how to pay tribute and honour the faith's patron when there is none...

:-) Jesper

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cthulhudrew Dec 11, 2004 23:13:26	Some more thoughts on Mystara religion here, though a bit more specifically focused: I've been thinking about the influence of religion as it relates to conquest and conversion, based on RW comparisons, and how that might have influenced cultures and conquests on Mystara. Specifically, from the description of the Church of Karameikos in Gaz1, one of the chief tenets of this religion is: "That it is the responsibility of members... to bring the benefits of the church philosophy to the unbeliever, and to remain persistent even in hostile lands, so that the benefits of the church be denied to no one who desires them..." Given that the CoK is a sect of the Church of Thyatis, founded in this spirit of missionistic teaching, one would presume that the CoT itself is a missionistic religion. That being the case, it seems to me that the colonial holdings of the Empire of Thyatis should/would be largely converted/missionist colonies- ie, the indigenous faiths of say, Ochalea (patron: Koryis) should have largely been supplanted since the conquest of that land in 0 AC (or at least since the rise of the CoT, if that came at a later date, which is likely). In other words, the listed patron Immortals of many of the Thyatian colonial holdings should be the same as those recognized by the CoT, and not the "indigenous" faiths of the people- at least for the most part. (Certain areas, such as the Hinterlands- recent conquests- would obviously be still largely "pagan"). Of course, as happened in the RW, I'd imagine aspects of those indigenous religions were absorbed or modified to fit in to the CoT's philosophies in those lands, but they should still mostly fall under the same religious dogma as the CoT. Anyone else have any thoughts about this?
#2 Hugin Dec 13, 2004 22:33:01	Ya, I've pretty much got the same thoughts. However I do see each region being slightly unique in its religion since the Thyatians usually end up absorbing the local Immortals into it's pantheon and religious system. Of course, I also think the indigineous religious system gets skewed as it gets absorbed. Yup, I guess I'm just saying "I agree" :D
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 14, 2004 3:19:17	Actually I DONT agree with Cthulhudrew's vision of the Thyatian religious attitude towards its provinces. On the contrary, it seems to me that the only certainty that DotE gives us on the Thyatian policy concerning foreign faiths is that the empire tends to absorb and integrate the pantheons of the civilizations it conquers, rather than impose its own deities. We know that in mainland Thyatis a variety of deities are worshipped, many of which are certainly not Thyatian in origin (DotE lists Odin, Thor, Halav, Diulanna and Koryis), so this is IMO a clue on the Thyatian openmindedness regarding foreign faiths. I believe they assimilate foreign deities and try to fit them into their whole Thyatian pantheon, giving them some Thyatian values, when this is appropriate (it even happens with Alphaks!) and the immortal's teachings don't go against the Thyatian interests. This is IMHO in tune with the general political behaviour of the Empire, which doesn't crush its subjects to conform them to the "Thyatian lifestyle", but rather takes something from every culture to create a wider cultural base. That's why the cult of Koryis is still very much active in Ochalea and Diulanna is widely worshipped by the Thratians of the Four Kingdoms.
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 14, 2004 3:29:28	To elaborate further, the example of the Church of Karameikos that Andrew quoted is rather weak. For one, we don't have a clue how the Church of Thyatis looks like, so we cannot compare anything. Also, the CoK is Jowett's personal vision adapted to the Karameikan situation, and since he split from the Church of Thyatis this means there must be some pretty significant differences between the two. Finally, the immortals which Bruce says are worshipped by the CoK (after GAZ1 didn't mention ANY and was rather portraying it as a more "philosophical" or "moral" church rather than a theistic one) are not native Karameikan immortals. Some were worshipped by the dwarvish and elvish minorities (Ilsundal and KAgyar), while the others (Valerias, Asterius and Vanya) are clearly Thyatian. However, Valerias is completely off the mark with the kind of Lawful mentality that is typical in the Church of Karameikos, so even Bruce makes some mistakes in his analysis. I'd say that the CoK's pantheon was a later addition brought on to better suit the Thyatian folks in Karameikos, but Jowett's original idea was that of a Moral Church rather than a faith worshipping specific immortals. The situation and social environment forced him to slightly modify his teachings later (adding immortals to focus the attention of the faithful and to compete with the Church of Traladara), but IMO there are still many priests in the CoK who don't worship a specific deity but rather follow the Path of the Pure Soul (Lawfulness) as preached by the Patriarch. All of this to say that the CoK is IMO a very particular case which shouldn't be taken as example to judge the mission and organisation of the Church of Thyatis (or of the Thyatian religious attitude).
#5 spellweaver Dec 14, 2004 7:34:09	My worth: I agree with DM on the analysis of both the Chuch/Empire of Thyatis and the Church of Karameikos. I have actually always found it refreshing that the CoK seemed to worship a moral code rather than a specific immortal - even if it gives some problems about how to pay tribute and honour the faith's patron when there is none... :-) Jesper