:fight!:
:fight!:Granted, a Dragon can do extra damage due to the life-draining effects of Dragon Magic, but put both of them in single combat, and that Dragon is going down. So, in conclusion, preserving is less powerful than defiling until a very high level of advancement
It doesn't sound like Cliff to throw the balance between the various advance beings out the window. Last I saw of the rules, and it dates from before Cliff got on the epic bureau, dragons had great draining power, spell-boosting power, and physical might, while avangions had something like a greater mastery of magic and psionics (since they are so physically inferior), and great defensive powers.
Avangions will probably end up being balanced with dragons, elemental beings, and druidic spirits of the lands.
Oh and on a related, note, I think I have a viable way to present sorcerors in the Dark Sun environment. They're the offspring of the Sorceror-Monarchs, and because Athasian Dragons, like regular Chromatic and Metallic dragons, are creatures whose very being is infused with magic, they can have offspring with an innate talent for the arcane.
actually.. I kinda thought of the Sorceror Kings as originally Sorcerors, with Wizard levels added later.. At least in Hamanu's case.. where they have that inborn ability with magic and at least for hamanu, started out with a lot of magic, like being a 20th level sorceror, having high level spells, but little variety. but later they become wizards too.. granting the additional flexability.. OR, they learn about magic more.. and are able to make better use of wish, and limited wish spells (if you're immortal, why not?)
In my case, I'd say restrict Sorceror class abilities to those who are life shaped by Rajaat. Just my preference...
IIRC Dragons swallow Obsidian orbs in which they can store Energy, so they would be able to cast spells even without an source near. I would also include Obsidian orbs in the Preserver Metamorphosis, since they too use "Dragon Magic".
The Dragons should be Physically more powerfull then all other AB IMO, and they should be equal in Magic and Psi to Avangions, in the case of Magic even more. I know that this is slightly unbalancing, but the Preservers choose the weaker part of Magic for the safety of Athas, something like this doesn't come without a price.
An Avangion shouldn't be able to defeat a Dragon in 1 to 1 combat, neither Physically nor with Magic. Dragons are after all the embodiements of Magical power. 2 Avangions would stand a chance, or an Avangion with some powerful allies, this comes closer to the feel of athasian Magic I think.
The Avangions are a bit too unathasian IMO, too goody and too angellike, make them more gritty, let them swallow Obsidian, make them use others to compensate their weeknesses. They are weaker but not dumb ;).
I can understand your perspective on this. It's definetely valid. But I have always thought that all the Dark Sun material I have seen, especially the novels, imply that a fully transformed Avangion should equal if not surpass a dragon in magic, especially now in the 3.5 rules, where they are going to have equal levels, and in order to maintain balance and make up for their physical weakness, Avangions should surpass Dragons in arcane might. Also, I kind of disagree that Avangions need orbs, because if I understand correctly, they actually generate their own spell energy from within, like a 3.5E sorceror, and the obsidian orbs serve as a focus for stolen life energy from creatures, which is the very antithesis of what an Avangion is trying to accomplish.
The Dragons should be Physically more powerfull then all other AB IMO, and they should be equal in Magic and Psi to Avangions, in the case of Magic even more. I know that this is slightly unbalancing, but the Preservers choose the weaker part of Magic for the safety of Athas, something like this doesn't come without a price.
An Avangion shouldn't be able to defeat a Dragon in 1 to 1 combat, neither Physically nor with Magic. Dragons are after all the embodiements of Magical power. 2 Avangions would stand a chance, or an Avangion with some powerful allies, this comes closer to the feel of athasian Magic I think.
That's an interesting perspective, and one I have never really thought of. I am definitely going to put some thought into it. My first instinct is to disagree, that the slower route to power gives a greater understanding that yields a higher level of power in the end stages, but I have always tried to think in terms of balance, and how do you achieve balance. In this case, it is by having some higher reward for the less powerful at early stages preserving / avangion process.
I take your point to be that Athasian magic isn't neccessarily by its nature balanced, and as such a good advanced being should be at a disadvantage.
I think Hammanu is able to shape the manna he recieves from the elemental vortices into effects that can mimic any spell. However, guys like Dregoth and Nibeney are actuall Wizards and are able to lace the manna they recieve from the elemental vortices into the spells they cast.
Old grumpy Penn has to say No, cause the good book says no Champion has access to the templar magic they pipe to their templars. The instances when Hamanu uses magic without defiling is when he drains his own life force (he's not afraid to do so) and the weird magic he sometimes uses is the same magic Sadira and Rajaat can use, sun magic (although Sadira has a template to booth, while Hamanu and Rajaat do not have that template).
As for the Obsidian orbs, well, Nok used them, Ktandeo used them too, they took never enough to kill a being, they took only as much as the victims could regenerate, sounds like preserver magic doesn't it? Even though it is Dragon magic in it's most interesting form it doesn't violate the preserver path, and it has a smell of Athas on it, because on Athas nothing comes without a price. What is the source of energy the Avangion generates to cast its spells? The Avangion itself? Well, if it is so then it isn't really athasian IMO, not gritty, no survival, except of this it coould give it's spells an infinite amount of energy and make them uberpowerful.
For the balance, it's always the fight Good versus Evil, on other Worlds this works fine, everything is balanced, but Athas is evil, because the Evil gets everything while the Good perish. If Athas would be balanced everything would have went different ;) more like the Forgotten Realms, Oronis of Waterdeep(?). But it is destroyed, the good never had the power to stop the evil, nor do they have it now, so they have to find another way to survive and to thwart the Defilers, maybe with the help of allies, even more with wits, this is the way Athas feels IMO, it is damn unfair, the way we love it :evillaugh .