The Grey- Saving the Multiverse, and Nobody Knows It! - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The Grey- Saving the Multiverse, and Nobody Knows It!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 14, 2004 19:45:49 I came across some old 2E material, I think it was called the Guide to Hell. Anyway, it stated that Asmodeus, THE lord of the Nine, is in fact a primal demiurge, and the only reason he hasn't destroyed the entire universe is because the only thing that heals him from the horrible wounds he recieved when he crashed down into Baator is consuming the very essence and souls of people who believe in no gods at all. Atheists. Now, the Toril, the world wherin lie the continents of Faerun, Kara-Tur, and Maztica, has the Fugue plane, in which lies the City of Judgement , and the souls of the unbelievers (Known as the Faithless) of Toril are absorbed into the walls of the City of Judgement and destroyed. Also, Toril's population of nonbelievers is relatively small, as it's inhabitants have all of the gods residing on the Outer Planes to choose from, and they reward worshippers by empowering their clerics, thus proving their existance and perpetuating their worship. Then you have Athas, where nobody believes in any gods, because the gods ignore them as they can't draw spiritual energy from believers on Athas, due to the fact that the conduits for doing so go to the inner planes there instead of the outer, and I believe this phenomenon has nothing to do with the Grey. If it wasn't for the Grey, the souls of EVERY SINGLE BEING THAT DIES ON ATHAS would be absorbed by Asmodeus in the end. And multitudes die on Athas every day. The only ones who go anywhere but the Grey in the end, I believe, are elemental clerics, who go to their patron plane, and druids who join with Spirits of the Land. And they make up probably less than 1% of the population. Were it not for the Grey, Asmodeus would be getting thousands of souls to feed on DAILY from Athas, every being to live on Athas would suffer for centuries as their soul was slowly absorbed to heal him, and he would heal much faster and the true Apocalypse would occur. The Grey is saving the entire universe, one absorbed soul at a time.
#2
zombiegleemax
Dec 15, 2004 23:54:07 I am currently researching my library of D&D materials for information regarding Jazirian, the lawful-good feathered serpent counterpart of Asmodeus, for the purpose of lending credence to the idea that she is responsible for the formation of the Grey, to prevent the rise of Asmodeus. I am also researching a line of thought that Asmodeus is in fact responsible for the deviation of the spiritual energy conduits from their normal paths on Athas, for the purpose of alienating their people from the gods and insuring fuel for his healing. If anybody has some obscure information regarding this situation, please post !
#3
dracochapel
Dec 16, 2004 0:51:17 I dont know if there is anything else around about jarizian, the Couatl goddess.

Maybe the Gray is the same as the wall in the city of judgement? its just kelemvor makes it appear as a wall they are trapped in. The Gray is therefore a general planar thing that jarizian put in place everywhere and on athas it is 'free' since there are no deities manipulating it/its appearance/becoming gods of death with its power.

I am also researching a line of thought that Asmodeus is in fact responsible for the deviation of the spiritual energy conduits from their normal paths on Athas, for the purpose of alienating their people from the gods and insuring fuel for his healing

If he can do this why doesnt he do it in other places?
He could BE the elemental conduits, fueling the SKs and their templars with powers, and ensuring these worshippers of 'false' gods also die faithless.

Do the elemental powers even count as gods for purposes of been faithful or not? Its not like FR where they worship Kossuth or whoever, on Athas they worship the actual elements, not a power.
#4
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 1:07:37 As far as I know, the only people who are incorporated into the Elemental scheme of things after death are the Elemental Clerics. The Druids are absorbed into the Spirits of the Land. I don't know if worshippers of the elements or the land who are not priests or druids meet this fate or not. The only reference I saw to Jarizian was in the Guide to Hell and her capacity as Goddess of the Couatls. Interesting idea about the wall, but if it existed around all planes, Asmodeus would get no souls, and the reference in the Guide to Hell would be erroneus. Also, I think it's only those who believe in absolutely nothing that get consumed by Asmodeus. Thus, his secret patronage of the Athar. You have to actively believe there are no true gods, and no true higher powers. If you believe in a false diety, I believe the material available states your soul gravitates towards the plane closest to your alignment. If you just follow no god in particular, or aren't sure whom to follow, the same thing happens. The only ones who get consumed by Asmodeus are the truest of atheists. So ,I don't think he Is the conduits, however I think he may have been the one to bend them. But, then again, worshipping the elements is enough to make you not be counted as a true atheist, and so, anywhere besides Athas, an elemental worshipper would go to the Outer Plane which matched their alignment the closest. But it would make sense that he did bend the conduits to reap the souls of anyone who did not choose to worship an element, and that Jarizian created the Grey to foil him. It kind of ties in with my theory that Athas shares some aspects of it's planar geometry with Sigil, because that is where Asmodeus and Jarizian originally attached to each other, gripping each other's tail in their jaws, and formed the oribous, orbiting the Spire in the Outlands and giving the planes their order and shape.
#5
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 2:20:19 independent of all else, Asmodeus KNOWS about athas. Just ask the "githyanki" working for dregoth. Or his pals coming in through his magic mirror to supplement his army.

And don't tell me asmodeus doesn't know what goes on in baator.

or maybe you should point out that he doesn't, and that athas is a crazy keen trump card, a surprise a wily duke of hell could use to gain some leverage.

but if some schmucky githyanki twit wanna-be queen knows, asmodeus should. especially since you got athasians loose in the planes.

but knowing OF doesn't mean knowing more.

just some duralogs for the fire guys.

nic
#6
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 2:39:20 Asmodeus definetely knows about Athas. But it's nonbelievers, and everyone else who dies there, is useless to him, because the Grey intercepts and absorbs their souls long before they could ever reach and be consumed by him. Also, Asmodeus is incapable of leaving Baator due to his injuries, and so cannot go to Athas and try to do something about the Grey, if anything can be done. I think it may just be some harsh cosmic joke played on him, because if Athas shares planar geometries with Sigil, and the Grey and the god-repelling effect of Sigil are related phenomena, it's extra harsh for Asmodeus, as this is the very plave he circled with Jarizian to bind the multiverse into it's current form, so a place he once had the greatest power of all is now cut off to him, as well as the one place that should by all rights be his greatest source of power.
#7
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 2:44:13 possible reason to lend dregoth an army to accomplish his goals of becoming a god. god dregoth means outer-planar access. means no gray stopping souls. though if there were god dregoth, then things would be kinda the same. so help dregoth pierce the gray, then double-cross him.
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 8:23:14
I am currently researching my library of D&D materials for information regarding Jazirian, the lawful-good feathered serpent counterpart of Asmodeus

Jazirian one of the aspect of the World Serpent was destroyed by another aspect called Mershaulk. This was from the Serpent Kingdoms. In the book Jazirian wsa a he.
#9
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 9:58:42 Must be a different Jazirian. The original Jazirian is the god of the Coatls and predates the World Serpent, I think. Or perhaps it's the other way around in the 3E universe....Interesting. I'm of the opinion that the Jazirian in Serpent Kingdoms is definetely a younger entity, because Asmodeus and his opponent Jazirian predate the multiverse, and in fact helped shaped it.
#10
Kamelion
Dec 16, 2004 11:08:31 You might also wanna check out Monstrous Mythology, a 2e supplement that introduced the concept of Jazirian being "the perfect spiritual manifestation of the World Serpent archetype". This piece (especially its references to other, less-perfect manifestations of the World Serpent) makes for an interesting parallel with the piece in Guide to Hell.
#11
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 16:39:57 Interesting. I'm going to try to acquire the Monstrous Mythology supplement, because what you've already stated makes perfect sense, and I want to further pursue that line of thought.
#12
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 21:38:21 Can you imagine the conversation between Asmodeus and Dregoth?

Dre: Who are you?
Asm: I am Asmodeus, master of the infernal legions!
Dre: Wow.
Asm: I command the nine layers of hell!
Dre: Keen!
Asm: I consume souls of the unbelievers from infinite planes of existance!
Dre: Golly!
Asm: I am the Demiurge!
Dre: Gee!
Asm: Gods fear my power and I am part of the fabric of the universe!
Dre: Can I be your friend?
Asm: Sure. Where are you from.
Dre: Athas.
Asm: Gads! That dump?
Dre: Well my PARENTS live there, I'm trying to move somewhere around here.
Asm: Sure we can be friends if you.... become a god on athas! (Baalzebub snickers from behind a rock)
Dre: Sure thing! See you soon!
Asm: (sucker!)

:D
#13
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 22:07:27 Further researching, I have found no reference, however obscure of Jarizian actively oppossing Asmodeus, other than having the coatls gather information for her.She is not referenced in any way in conjunction with the Grey, though I do believe just by the fact she is the equal and opposite counterpart of Asmodeus, she must be responsible for it's existance, because only a primal demiurge such as her could create such an effect.
#14
zombiegleemax
Dec 17, 2004 17:59:52 I don't know for sure.. But wouldn't simply beliving in the elements, even when not a cleric, be enough to not die god-less or whatever?

If you belive in something, you don't go to the wall thing.. The way I see it, most athasians at least belive in either the elements or spirit of the land. A nomad tribe might be strong beliver of the air, etc..
#15
zombiegleemax
Dec 17, 2004 18:53:39 If they actually hold belief akin to worship, and view that element as a divine thing, then yes, you are correct.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 14, 2004 19:45:49	I came across some old 2E material, I think it was called the Guide to Hell. Anyway, it stated that Asmodeus, THE lord of the Nine, is in fact a primal demiurge, and the only reason he hasn't destroyed the entire universe is because the only thing that heals him from the horrible wounds he recieved when he crashed down into Baator is consuming the very essence and souls of people who believe in no gods at all. Atheists. Now, the Toril, the world wherin lie the continents of Faerun, Kara-Tur, and Maztica, has the Fugue plane, in which lies the City of Judgement , and the souls of the unbelievers (Known as the Faithless) of Toril are absorbed into the walls of the City of Judgement and destroyed. Also, Toril's population of nonbelievers is relatively small, as it's inhabitants have all of the gods residing on the Outer Planes to choose from, and they reward worshippers by empowering their clerics, thus proving their existance and perpetuating their worship. Then you have Athas, where nobody believes in any gods, because the gods ignore them as they can't draw spiritual energy from believers on Athas, due to the fact that the conduits for doing so go to the inner planes there instead of the outer, and I believe this phenomenon has nothing to do with the Grey. If it wasn't for the Grey, the souls of EVERY SINGLE BEING THAT DIES ON ATHAS would be absorbed by Asmodeus in the end. And multitudes die on Athas every day. The only ones who go anywhere but the Grey in the end, I believe, are elemental clerics, who go to their patron plane, and druids who join with Spirits of the Land. And they make up probably less than 1% of the population. Were it not for the Grey, Asmodeus would be getting thousands of souls to feed on DAILY from Athas, every being to live on Athas would suffer for centuries as their soul was slowly absorbed to heal him, and he would heal much faster and the true Apocalypse would occur. The Grey is saving the entire universe, one absorbed soul at a time.
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 15, 2004 23:54:07	I am currently researching my library of D&D materials for information regarding Jazirian, the lawful-good feathered serpent counterpart of Asmodeus, for the purpose of lending credence to the idea that she is responsible for the formation of the Grey, to prevent the rise of Asmodeus. I am also researching a line of thought that Asmodeus is in fact responsible for the deviation of the spiritual energy conduits from their normal paths on Athas, for the purpose of alienating their people from the gods and insuring fuel for his healing. If anybody has some obscure information regarding this situation, please post !
#3 dracochapel Dec 16, 2004 0:51:17	I dont know if there is anything else around about jarizian, the Couatl goddess. Maybe the Gray is the same as the wall in the city of judgement? its just kelemvor makes it appear as a wall they are trapped in. The Gray is therefore a general planar thing that jarizian put in place everywhere and on athas it is 'free' since there are no deities manipulating it/its appearance/becoming gods of death with its power. I am also researching a line of thought that Asmodeus is in fact responsible for the deviation of the spiritual energy conduits from their normal paths on Athas, for the purpose of alienating their people from the gods and insuring fuel for his healing If he can do this why doesnt he do it in other places? He could BE the elemental conduits, fueling the SKs and their templars with powers, and ensuring these worshippers of 'false' gods also die faithless. Do the elemental powers even count as gods for purposes of been faithful or not? Its not like FR where they worship Kossuth or whoever, on Athas they worship the actual elements, not a power.
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 1:07:37	As far as I know, the only people who are incorporated into the Elemental scheme of things after death are the Elemental Clerics. The Druids are absorbed into the Spirits of the Land. I don't know if worshippers of the elements or the land who are not priests or druids meet this fate or not. The only reference I saw to Jarizian was in the Guide to Hell and her capacity as Goddess of the Couatls. Interesting idea about the wall, but if it existed around all planes, Asmodeus would get no souls, and the reference in the Guide to Hell would be erroneus. Also, I think it's only those who believe in absolutely nothing that get consumed by Asmodeus. Thus, his secret patronage of the Athar. You have to actively believe there are no true gods, and no true higher powers. If you believe in a false diety, I believe the material available states your soul gravitates towards the plane closest to your alignment. If you just follow no god in particular, or aren't sure whom to follow, the same thing happens. The only ones who get consumed by Asmodeus are the truest of atheists. So ,I don't think he Is the conduits, however I think he may have been the one to bend them. But, then again, worshipping the elements is enough to make you not be counted as a true atheist, and so, anywhere besides Athas, an elemental worshipper would go to the Outer Plane which matched their alignment the closest. But it would make sense that he did bend the conduits to reap the souls of anyone who did not choose to worship an element, and that Jarizian created the Grey to foil him. It kind of ties in with my theory that Athas shares some aspects of it's planar geometry with Sigil, because that is where Asmodeus and Jarizian originally attached to each other, gripping each other's tail in their jaws, and formed the oribous, orbiting the Spire in the Outlands and giving the planes their order and shape.
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 2:20:19	independent of all else, Asmodeus KNOWS about athas. Just ask the "githyanki" working for dregoth. Or his pals coming in through his magic mirror to supplement his army. And don't tell me asmodeus doesn't know what goes on in baator. or maybe you should point out that he doesn't, and that athas is a crazy keen trump card, a surprise a wily duke of hell could use to gain some leverage. but if some schmucky githyanki twit wanna-be queen knows, asmodeus should. especially since you got athasians loose in the planes. but knowing OF doesn't mean knowing more. just some duralogs for the fire guys. nic
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 2:39:20	Asmodeus definetely knows about Athas. But it's nonbelievers, and everyone else who dies there, is useless to him, because the Grey intercepts and absorbs their souls long before they could ever reach and be consumed by him. Also, Asmodeus is incapable of leaving Baator due to his injuries, and so cannot go to Athas and try to do something about the Grey, if anything can be done. I think it may just be some harsh cosmic joke played on him, because if Athas shares planar geometries with Sigil, and the Grey and the god-repelling effect of Sigil are related phenomena, it's extra harsh for Asmodeus, as this is the very plave he circled with Jarizian to bind the multiverse into it's current form, so a place he once had the greatest power of all is now cut off to him, as well as the one place that should by all rights be his greatest source of power.
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 2:44:13	possible reason to lend dregoth an army to accomplish his goals of becoming a god. god dregoth means outer-planar access. means no gray stopping souls. though if there were god dregoth, then things would be kinda the same. so help dregoth pierce the gray, then double-cross him.
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 8:23:14	I am currently researching my library of D&D materials for information regarding Jazirian, the lawful-good feathered serpent counterpart of Asmodeus Jazirian one of the aspect of the World Serpent was destroyed by another aspect called Mershaulk. This was from the Serpent Kingdoms. In the book Jazirian wsa a he.
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 9:58:42	Must be a different Jazirian. The original Jazirian is the god of the Coatls and predates the World Serpent, I think. Or perhaps it's the other way around in the 3E universe....Interesting. I'm of the opinion that the Jazirian in Serpent Kingdoms is definetely a younger entity, because Asmodeus and his opponent Jazirian predate the multiverse, and in fact helped shaped it.
#10 Kamelion Dec 16, 2004 11:08:31	You might also wanna check out Monstrous Mythology, a 2e supplement that introduced the concept of Jazirian being "the perfect spiritual manifestation of the World Serpent archetype". This piece (especially its references to other, less-perfect manifestations of the World Serpent) makes for an interesting parallel with the piece in Guide to Hell.
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 16:39:57	Interesting. I'm going to try to acquire the Monstrous Mythology supplement, because what you've already stated makes perfect sense, and I want to further pursue that line of thought.
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 21:38:21	Can you imagine the conversation between Asmodeus and Dregoth? Dre: Who are you? Asm: I am Asmodeus, master of the infernal legions! Dre: Wow. Asm: I command the nine layers of hell! Dre: Keen! Asm: I consume souls of the unbelievers from infinite planes of existance! Dre: Golly! Asm: I am the Demiurge! Dre: Gee! Asm: Gods fear my power and I am part of the fabric of the universe! Dre: Can I be your friend? Asm: Sure. Where are you from. Dre: Athas. Asm: Gads! That dump? Dre: Well my PARENTS live there, I'm trying to move somewhere around here. Asm: Sure we can be friends if you.... become a god on athas! (Baalzebub snickers from behind a rock) Dre: Sure thing! See you soon! Asm: (sucker!) :D
#13 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 22:07:27	Further researching, I have found no reference, however obscure of Jarizian actively oppossing Asmodeus, other than having the coatls gather information for her.She is not referenced in any way in conjunction with the Grey, though I do believe just by the fact she is the equal and opposite counterpart of Asmodeus, she must be responsible for it's existance, because only a primal demiurge such as her could create such an effect.
#14 zombiegleemax Dec 17, 2004 17:59:52	I don't know for sure.. But wouldn't simply beliving in the elements, even when not a cleric, be enough to not die god-less or whatever? If you belive in something, you don't go to the wall thing.. The way I see it, most athasians at least belive in either the elements or spirit of the land. A nomad tribe might be strong beliver of the air, etc..
#15 zombiegleemax Dec 17, 2004 18:53:39	If they actually hold belief akin to worship, and view that element as a divine thing, then yes, you are correct.