For instance, in the KoD module Ak-Krin is a location on the map. However, the module does not take into account the fact that players may decide to go there; regardless of where the module says they should go. I for one do not like leading my players by the nose. SO, I decided to map out Ak-Krin and I spent months looking for "official sources" only to find out in order to get them I would have to hit the criminal-ridden website E-bay and pour tons of money out just to get the "official word" on one place.
After thinking on it I decided to say the heck with what Hickman, Weiss, or any other designer/writer wrote about the place(Ak-Krin). I am going to build it from the bottom up and conform to my/my player's liking. I found that when the DM says the heck with "official sources"(I most certainly am not what you would call a buck-toothed, fanatical fanboy/girl.) the game becomes alot more enjoyable. I have races in my game that the "official sources" do not touch upon. Such as the mist elves from The Quintessential Elf, and a few others from Unearthed Arcana. Official is ok(I guess), just don't limit yourself or always wait for the designers/writes to give you the thumbs up.
~~~
( "buck-toothed, fanatical fanboy/girl"? )
To which I can only say, pretty much all of the stuff you see published in official products is a resource for you and was very likely made up by a designer, a novelist or even a mapmaker at some point and either never touched again or expanded upon by somebody else. If you only ever stick to what's in print, then you will become very disappointed. Not because things aren't covered, because there is a great deal of Dragonlance information out there (more than most of us can know), but because you're the one who's running the game and knows what you want.
So if you don't see it, make it up.
Cheers,
Cam
That's what's great about these games, the world your particular group plays in ultimately belongs to the GM and players, not the writers and designers.
I agree, I found the game to be so much more enjoyable after I erased the images of the dull Silvanesti(I am sick to death of Alhana. She is such a corny character), Qualinesti, and Solamnic Knights bickering over nonsense. How many times can they all refuse to help each other and then change their minds when a war comes ?
I felt the DL world needed a breath of fresh air, so I introduced my own races that were more outgoing and not stale hermetic races.
I think people might be surprised by how much "unofficial" and noncanon stuff makes it into the games run by even "official" sources.
I think it is better if they leave it out, because once they place it in the novels/gamebooks/etc. they are going to use it to death like they have done Solamnics, the current DL elves, Mina's fanaticism, etc.
( "buck-toothed, fanatical fanboy/girl"? )
It was a joke, I am pretty sure the majority of posters on here are not buck-toothed.
~~~
I think it is better if they leave it out, because once they place it in the novels/gamebooks/etc. they are going to use it to death like they have done Solamnics, the current DL elves, Mina's fanaticism, etc.
Not sure what you mean here. Game designers should stick to official canon in their own private games? Or they shouldn't put stuff they cook up for their own games into print?
It was a joke,...
Yes, just one that seemed to come out of left field a bit.
But... now just how much can you change Dragonlance and still stays...well.. Dragonlance. Now adding a city here, or mapping out another city somewhere else probably doesnt change too much in the Dragonlance world. But say we add drow. Now we take out the Silvanesti because we don't like them. And well.. We decide we'd like all dwarves to be red, from hours of being at the forge. Now we decide eh.. we could use a few more types of dragons, so gem dragons are included. We didnt really like the whole Huma story, so we omit that because we think we have a better history for the world. Gods leave? Not in our game, we think it was just corny so we delete that also. We add some more races of gnomes because they really should have different types than just Tinker. We decide we liked the Time of Troubles from FR and implement it in Dragonlance and thats what is happening in the current timeline. Etc, etc, etc...
While everyone will have different things going on in their world and automatically have the right to change things they dont like and make up new things, I think it can become too much. I see people write a lot about different campaign settings and list off like 100's of things they dont like about it and want to change and I just think to myself... well you basically have just made a different campaign setting. You keep like 10 things but get rid of 100.
Every DM adds their own personal touch to their world and you can never *fully* follow along with offical things, but I also believe that there needs to be some kind of balance where people also think about what they are doing if they change really *that* much. You might be just better off making up your own world and liking a different one that was already made. If you like 3 things out of a setting, you'd almost be better off making up your own and adding those three things to it then taking the existing setting and stripping away the other 100.
But again, everyone does things differently. As people have said, thats what makes D&D great.
Not sure what you mean here. Game designers should stick to official canon in their own private games? Or they shouldn't put stuff they cook up for their own games into print?
Leave the unofficial/homebrew things out of the official products. The reason I say this is because Dragonlance writers/designers tend to beat things into the ground; and if I make something unique to my game I want it to stay unique to my game. I do not want to see it used over and over again like the myriad wars, the corny elves, the heroism, and the gods leaving the world. I want unique and fresh ideas to stay fresh without being forced on DL players/DMs with every novel.
Yes, just one that seemed to come out of left field a bit.
Not really, It was poking fun(not meant to insult) at those that cannot do anything outside of what is termed "official."
~~~
It personalizes the experience, and no matter how dramatic a change anyone can make in their own campaign, odds are it won't be as major as what the original authors have already done.
And you just never know when something, or someone, from your personal campaign might work its way into an "official" product. ;) Good times.
Almost everyone says in their posts "Hey do what you want, its your world". Which is nice. People change things all the time and do what they want to do. If something isn't detailed like a city, a DM pretty much has to make it up. IF they can't get ahold of a copy of something that does detail it, again they have to make it up. I'm all for creative license.
One of my points is that unless your some kind of die-hard DragonLance fan(as in walking around wearing DragonLance shirts and quoting Raistlin), nine times out of ten you are not going to go hunting down every little "official" ruling/book on DragonLance just to construct say "a town."
DragonLance is only one of the many D&D settings I own. Most gamers are not DragonLance-specific fans, they are D&D fans. When you start restricting people's creativity with the whole "It's not official!" whiney gamer spiel you only get on other people's nerves. Now not every DL fan does this, but there are some that do.
Personally, I could care less about what an official DL rules lawyer thinks. It is all about how I play my game. I find regular old DL to be somewhat bland(The elves are too isolationist, the solamnics are too chivalrous and ignorant, the Herald is corny, I hate Mina), so I spiced it up(I altered the elves outlook to have them get out more rather than cower in the sewers like punks, I make solamnics more than honor in a metal suit, I don't use the herald as much, If my player's get strong enough I will make an adventure where they can kill Mina).
But... now just how much can you change Dragonlance and still stays...well.. Dragonlance. Now adding a city here, or mapping out another city somewhere else probably doesnt change too much in the Dragonlance world. But say we add drow. Now we take out the Silvanesti because we don't like them. And well.. We decide we'd like all dwarves to be red, from hours of being at the forge. Now we decide eh.. we could use a few more types of dragons, so gem dragons are included. We didnt really like the whole Huma story, so we omit that because we think we have a better history for the world. Gods leave? Not in our game, we think it was just corny so we delete that also. We add some more races of gnomes because they really should have different types than just Tinker. We decide we liked the Time of Troubles from FR and implement it in Dragonlance and thats what is happening in the current timeline. Etc, etc, etc...
That is a bit drastic, but if one pays the 40 bucks for the book and wants to do all of those things(Not that I personally would. The above is overkill IMO) noone can stop them. What "official-heads" forget is that once you buy the books and get behind the screen it is "your world." And if they want to change it and still call it DragonLance, guess what ? They can.
~~~
Leave the unofficial/homebrew things out of the official products.
That is how most new gaming material makes it into the games, though. And game settings these days don't remain static; not when there are novels to write and supplements to release. New ideas are the lifeblood of a supported setting.
What "official-heads" forget is that once you buy the books and get behind the screen it is "your world." And if they want to change it and still call it DragonLance, guess what ? They can.
I think this is a case of "Wait, you're both right!"
95% of GMs* make tweaks to offical canon when they run a game in an established setting. Employed game designers know, and even support, this. Your game group has to make it your own to get full enjoyment out of it, and if you're not having a good time, there's no point in playing.
However, there reaches some point where you can say "I'm playing Dragonlance," but another person familiar with Dragonlance might join your game expecting certain things, only look at it and not recognize it at all. You can call if Dragonlance, of course, but that doesn't mean it will be Dragonlance to everyone. Of course, it's up to each game group how much they care about that.
(* And 95% of gamers pull statistics straight out of the abyss.)
The point is, your home campaign need not reflect what is official. Your home campaign should be whatever is the most fun for you and your group. On the forums, i'll debate official points up and down, but in my campaign, Gilean caused the cataclysm, and Kender come from Elves =)
Leave the unofficial/homebrew things out of the official products. The reason I say this is because Dragonlance writers/designers tend to beat things into the ground
I don't know about any other writers and designers, but I've never beaten something into the ground in my life.
I think perhaps this is akin to looking at the tip of an iceberg and complaining that icebergs are far too small and not extensive enough.
Cheers,
Cam
For the rest, and for time saving, you can't go wrong with a subscription to Dungeon Magazine. Alternate rules and splat books come and go, but premade maps and character portraits will last forever.
So i bought a few "Official" products about south ergoth & searched through those i already had. Found a lots of information. Yet, we played twice a week for like a year (roughly 100 game sessions) and they NEVER left the island. Believe me, i wished there was more information available about it. i had no choice, i made my own stuff to add to the official.
Since it was an full elven campaing, i decided to let some other stuff than DL available too. Quintessential Elf, Druid... other D20 product, FR stuff even. so it really looked and feeled Elven :D
And sometimes, we are still talking about that good old nice gaming year we had! We had such a wonderful time.
Its late, i am rambling...
Au revoir!
I don't know about any other writers and designers, but I've never beaten something into the ground in my life.
I think perhaps this is akin to looking at the tip of an iceberg and complaining that icebergs are far too small and not extensive enough.
Cheers,
Cam
I don't think so...
The gods are always leaving, there are too many wars, the elves never change(even though now they are homeless they still remain scared and isolated[hiding in the sewers]).
The change does not even have to be drastic, just change a little so I can stop skipping over the elves' portion in DL novels(all they do is whine[about other races] and act superior, it is getting old).
These are the sacred cows of DragonLance that have been beat into the ground. Of course you don't have to acknowledge them, its your opinion vs. mine. However, these things(stated above) have been done time-and-time again and they are making a wonderful world seem bland.
~~~
Though I should point out that it is important to have a solid groundwork laid for a campaign setting to take on a life of its own. WotL is an excellent example of a good foundation for a campaign world.
For the rest, and for time saving, you can't go wrong with a subscription to Dungeon Magazine. Alternate rules and splat books come and go, but premade maps and character portraits will last forever.
Dungeon magazine is not as good as it used to be.
Erik Mona appeared on the boards not too long ago asking people why they don't buy the magazine. The main reason for such is due to the lack of fluff in the magazine. It's a bunch of rules(to make things that are not needed in one's campaign), but nothing to help the DM story-wise(bringing in a new race, role-playing, etc).
~~~
The gods are always leaving, there are too many wars, the elves never change(even though now they are homeless they still remain scared and isolated[hiding in the sewers]).
The gods have left twice.
This is a setting that was created around the concept of conflict, and is driven by it, and battles between good and evil over land, faith, control and power are the foundation of the campaign setting. You're never going to have a period serving as the baseline for game materials or novels that doesn't have a war going on somewhere.
The elves are hiding in the sewers in one small town in an adventure module. Elsewhere, they're forming refugee camps, or trying to integrate into human cities, or wandering as nomads. They have nothing of what they used to have. They're not the people they once were. Yes, they're somewhat isolationist and xenophobic (the Silvanesti are, at least) but then in the past 100 years they've had their eternal forests invaded three times, so they're a little paranoid.
You seem to tire easily of common thematic elements, which I think is normal for people who have come to the setting relatively recently and catch up on it all at once. Hell, it's common among people who've been with the setting since the beginning like I have, but I would say it's one of those situations where you're so bothered by these elements that you fail to see the dozens and dozens of other excellent storylines, characters, events and materials that use those common themes as a foundation. Dragonlance is richly detailed, and while it's easy to lump things together and grouse at them (in fact, it's probably the easiest thing to do with any setting), it's ultimately a waste of your time to do so.
Cheers,
Cam
The gods have left twice.
And each time it is focused upon as if it did not happen before. Why not try something new ?
This is a setting that was created around the concept of conflict, and is driven by it, and battles between good and evil over land, faith, control and power are the foundation of the campaign setting. You're never going to have a period serving as the baseline for game materials or novels that doesn't have a war going on somewhere.
Every setting has had wars, but no other setting focuses on multiple wars like DragonLance does, to the point where it feels as if your expriencing deja vu(Hasn't this happened before ? When will it change ?).
The elves are hiding in the sewers in one small town in an adventure module. Elsewhere, they're forming refugee camps, or trying to integrate into human cities, or wandering as nomads. They have nothing of what they used to have. They're not the people they once were. Yes, they're somewhat isolationist and xenophobic (the Silvanesti are, at least) but then in the past 100 years they've had their eternal forests invaded three times, so they're a little paranoid.
The point is they are the same, they have the same whiney position, they still hide(this time in the sewers, or elsewhere, rather than behind a shield.), and they still lack any distinctive qualities that serve to drive a story forward.
You seem to tire easily of common thematic elements, which I think is normal for people who have come to the setting relatively recently and catch up on it all at once.
I have been reading DL novels for years. I started DMing DL with the advent of DL V3.5. Wanting to see some expansion of the world has nothing to do with being new, it has to do with wanting to see more options for the game/novels.
Hell, it's common among people who've been with the setting since the beginning like I have, but I would say it's one of those situations where you're so bothered by these elements that you fail to see the dozens and dozens of other excellent storylines, characters, events and materials that use those common themes as a foundation. Dragonlance is richly detailed, and while it's easy to lump things together and grouse at them (in fact, it's probably the easiest thing to do with any setting), it's ultimately a waste of your time to do so.
The dozens of other storylines are still shadowed by the return of the gods(which is nothing new), the once elven lands(back to the elves again), etc.
It seems as if they are afraid to tweak some of these "sacred cows", but then again that is just my opinion on the subject.
~~~
I run a campaign on Taladas focusing on the Dark Knights and Ariakan's connection to Zeboim.
When I finish that one, I want to do a *godless* 5th Age adventure detailling Savage's reign over Aurim.
For further campaigns, I think about a pre -WotL adventure involving young Tanis, my fav character, or maybe I'll guide my players to Southern Ergoth as well.
(Anyone remembers Adlatum? What has become of that project?)
For long time RPG beyond canon, I'd not recommend DL. If you want your players not only to tell an alternative, but their OWN story, you may have to use a less *exploited* setting. (In my honest opinion - no offense intended.)
(Anyone remembers Adlatum? What has become of that project?)
Adlatum is on hold for a while. All of us who were working on it have been super-busy with projects from Sovereign Press, which takes precedent.
I'm not sure what is to become of Adlatum.
I've never heard of players being concerned about their characters adventuring in the shadow of Sturm and Kit going to the moon. No, they're concerned about what the Companions did during the War of the Lance because those exploits were so awesome. Official, schmicial. For a lot of people its just hard to top.
Peter Jackson told a LOTR story that did not adhere to the official printed canon in a lot of instances and very few people cared (and yes I know that most who do are right here on the internet so no need to get into that). Millions even prefer the story of the films to those of the books, and when they think of LOTR, the first thing that comes to mind are the exploits of the characters as portrayed by Viggo Mortensen and Elijah Wood.
But that's mainly for two reasons; the LOTR films really are that good, and they're now expansive enough to have penetrated public consciousness to the point that they serve as common ground to a great many people.
But "common ground" is really the lesser issue, and I think people often make out like its the opposite. As I said, Sturm and Kit going to the moon is common ground for most DL fans...and commonly dismissed (even by some of the authors.)
Make your alt.DL campaign good enough, post it on the web, and I just might start my next campaign there.
If you don't post it on the web, rest assured that your group knows which is better, either better straight up or better for your particular dynamic. And then just have fun with it. Adlatum is on hold for a while. All of us who were working on it have been super-busy with projects from Sovereign Press, which takes precedent.
I'm not sure what is to become of Adlatum.
I would welcome it if the project was continued. Now, as I am a devoted Taladasian
, I think I am unlikely to visit it as a DM...I wish you all a nice Christmas!
I would welcome it if the project was continued.
We've talked some on Adlatum recently, and there may be something in the works for the future. Perhaps a few articles in the Tobril. Nothing is finalized as of this time.
I'm also getting the Darklance bug again recently. I've been thinking of posting an article to update it.
We've talked some on Adlatum recently, and there may be something in the works for the future. Perhaps a few articles in the Tobril. Nothing is finalized as of this time.
Would there be a way for me to contribute to the Adlatum project?
Would there be a way for me to contribute to the Adlatum project?
I think the intention is that eventually, it will be opened up to the public for expansion.
I think the intention is that eventually, it will be opened up to the public for expansion.
A great idea! Keep me informed!MC
The game´s the thing; it is the original product: the books are a spin-off. The nature of the game assumes that events may take many different courses- if these conflict with the officíal story, they take precedence.
Well said. People kill me trying to keep up with the novels "all of the time." As if the novels, alone, make the game.
~~~