Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cthulhudrew Dec 20, 2004 1:03:08	Doing some work on the Atruaghin clans at the moment (among other things- I really should finish one project before jumping into others...) Anyway, I noticed a reference in Gaz11 that seemed really... odd, given what was later written about the Atruaghin Clans. On p. 5 it mentions a dispute between Atruaghin and Glantri that was mediated by Sasheme Vickers and led to the development of the DDC. The incident is again referenced on p. 12. Now I've been trying for the life of me to think of what, possibly, could have happened between Glantri and Atruaghin to nearly create an international incident that required a third party to mediate, but I'm drawing a blank. Even taking into account that Darokin (at the time) was little more than a loose association of petty dominions and mercantile City-States, I just don't see what Glantri and Atruaghin were doing interacting. Especially given Gaz14 and the 'tribal' nature of the Clans (as opposed to what I think was the prevailing concept at the time, that the Clans were a kingdom- as referenced by the monarchy and King Hutapanca references on the Trail Maps). Can anyone else think of what might have gone on? In all likelihood it was something involving the Tiger Clan, but I'd like to solicit opinions on what the rest of you think might have happened.
#2 stanles Dec 20, 2004 6:05:00	I was actually just thinking earlier today about dream catchers (because I'm buying one for my mum to give to my nephew for Christmas). As far as I know they're a Native American custom. So I was then thinking maybe shamans from the Atruaghin Clans could use them. I believe in real world mythology they're for the capturing of nightmares before they reach you so you can protected from them. Alternatively I thought if that was wrong maybe they could be used to capture any type of dream that you just had so that they could be studied later in more detail or perhaps capture good dreams from reaching other people. Or something. Anyway I was then starting to think of possible conflicts which would arise from this with the Dream Master school in Glantri. Not really a source of conflict for DDC resolution I'd imagine but a possible source of conflict I guess. Doing some work on the Atruaghin clans at the moment (among other things- I really should finish one project before jumping into others...) Anyway, I noticed a reference in Gaz11 that seemed really... odd, given what was later written about the Atruaghin Clans. On p. 5 it mentions a dispute between Atruaghin and Glantri that was mediated by Sasheme Vickers and led to the development of the DDC. The incident is again referenced on p. 12. Now I've been trying for the life of me to think of what, possibly, could have happened between Glantri and Atruaghin to nearly create an international incident that required a third party to mediate, but I'm drawing a blank. Even taking into account that Darokin (at the time) was little more than a loose association of petty dominions and mercantile City-States, I just don't see what Glantri and Atruaghin were doing interacting. Especially given Gaz14 and the 'tribal' nature of the Clans (as opposed to what I think was the prevailing concept at the time, that the Clans were a kingdom- as referenced by the monarchy and King Hutapanca references on the Trail Maps). Can anyone else think of what might have gone on? In all likelihood it was something involving the Tiger Clan, but I'd like to solicit opinions on what the rest of you think might have happened.
#3 Cthulhudrew Dec 20, 2004 16:58:03	I was actually just thinking earlier today about dream catchers (because I'm buying one for my mum to give to my nephew for Christmas). As far as I know they're a Native American custom. That they are- first "created" by either the Chippewa or the Sioux, depending on who you ask. So I was then thinking maybe shamans from the Atruaghin Clans could use them. I believe in real world mythology they're for the capturing of nightmares before they reach you so you can protected from them... Anyway I was then starting to think of possible conflicts which would arise from this with the Dream Master school in Glantri. That's not a bad idea. Perhaps they were doing something with them that the Dream Masters didn't like... hmmm... Not really a source of conflict for DDC resolution I'd imagine but a possible source of conflict I guess. The DDC hadn't been created yet- it was this incident that led directly to the creation of the DDC. Sasheme Vickers got involved because the incident looked as if it would lead to armed conflict, and Darokin (particularly the Amsorak region) would have inevitably been caught in the middle. Good idea- I'll look into it a little bit more. If nothing else, it will at least provide some sort of intrigue between the two nations (if not this specific incident). Thanks!
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2004 17:17:15	Couldn't the Glantrians be interested in the World Elevator or in transporting themselves into the HW? (It's late and I'm rather tired, so please forgive me if: a. The World Elevator is the transportation mechanism into the HW. If it is, I meant that other device. b. This doesn't fit the timeline. c. There is no reason what-so-ever that the Glantrian would be interested in etc.)
#5 npc_dave Dec 20, 2004 18:04:13	How about some Glantrian adventurers entered the Atruaghin lands and stole some precious artifacts which dated back to Atruaghin himself? The Clans prepared for war, and Darokin, knowing that the Clans probably wouldn't make it to Glantri, but would probably wreak havoc on Darokinian lands, decided to mediate the dispute to avoid a war that would mostly be on their soil.
#6 Cthulhudrew Dec 20, 2004 19:21:40	a. The World Elevator is the transportation mechanism into the HW. If it is, I meant that other device. You're right. The World Elevator is the trade lift that was built to facilitate trade to the top of the plateau. b. This doesn't fit the timeline. However, this doesn't fit the timeline. ;) (The World Elevator is built in 954, while the "incident" takes place c. 927). And the Hollow World conveyer is supposed to be very, very secret (as is the Hollow World at this particular time- c. 1000 AC). c. There is no reason what-so-ever that the Glantrian would be interested in etc.) However, lest you think I'm shooting down your suggestions, you do raise some interesting speculations. Even if they don't know about the Hollow World transporter, there are very likely ancient Azcan/Oltec ruins in abundance around the plateau that Glantrian scholars might be very interested in. That, and your mention of the World Elevator made me remember that Alphatian mages took over the plateau post-Wrath of the Immortals, for reasons that were never really explained. Perhaps there is some sort of arcane secret(s) that the Glantrians learned of, and wanted to take advantage of (and the Alphatians later did), that led to a nearly armed conflict between the two nations? Hmmm... still thinking, but I am liking all the suggestions I'm hearing.
#7 Cthulhudrew Dec 20, 2004 19:27:05	How about some Glantrian adventurers entered the Atruaghin lands and stole some precious artifacts which dated back to Atruaghin himself? Sounds good. I'm liking this idea- it fits with the idea (spurred by Lost Woodrake) that there are ancient Azcan/Oltec ruins in these lands. For that matter, Atruaghin himself is one of the most powerful spellcasters to walk the face of Mystara, and he's walked more of it than most, so there might indeed be ancient artifacts that he brought. The Clans prepared for war, and Darokin, knowing that the Clans probably wouldn't make it to Glantri, but would probably wreak havoc on Darokinian lands, decided to mediate the dispute to avoid a war that would mostly be on their soil. Definitely my take on things. Darokin was divided into a lot of petty dominions at the time, and wasn't nearly as unified as it currently is, so they'd have been in a heap of trouble- Glantrians might even have tried to meet the Atruaghin forces midway, rather than sit and wait, and even gobble up some Darokin lands for themselves. I'm going to check the Glantrian timelines, to try and get a read on what was going on there around the time (still very young, nation-wise- the Light of Rad decision was only in 858 or so), but I think I can work these ideas into something. FTR, I'm really trying to make the Clans "fit" better into the Known World than they currently do. They've always been just this anomalous "Native American" nation that doesn't really feel right with the rest of the nations around them, and that has always just kept to itself, for some inexplicable reason. I imagine that they must have had a lot more contacts with the outside world (at least the non-plateau dwellers) than has been elaborated on before.
#8 Hugin Dec 20, 2004 23:18:22	A list of things to consider about the incident: - it concentrated around the western side of Lake Amsorak since it says Akesoli would be especially caught in the middle. - it would have lead to at least a fairly large and open war. - there was some passage of time between this and the Great Merger in 927 AC, so I'd guess between 900AC and 920AC(ish). -in 920 AC there is an economic agreement between Glantri and Darokin, allowing free passage for all merchant caravans (Gaz 3) I'm sure there are many possibilities, but what came to my mind is that perhaps Glantri was considering taking by force some of the lands claimed by the Atruaghin Clans that borders the sea. Afterall, Glantri is land-locked, and it's possible they felt the need for access to the sea for successful trade and defence. They might have even though about taking some land off of western Darokin to connect to the coastal lands. Darokin negotiated with both Glantri and Atruaghin; Glantri received free passage through Darokin to the sea, and Atruaghin became more trustworthy of Darokin thereby opening up to more trade between the two.
#9 Cthulhudrew Dec 21, 2004 1:56:57	Hugin- Great assessment of the situation, and you probably hit the nail on the head. Don't know why I didn't think of that one! Glantri probably tried to start settlements either south of the plateau (where they'd have direct access to the sea), or else north along Lake Amsorak (where they'd have access to the sea via the Streel, as well as contacts with Sind and Darokin). Either way, their colonizing expedition probably ran afoul of the Atruaghin people, and things escalated from there, threatening to explode into war. I'll try and expand further, but I think you've hit on the most likely scenario. Sweet!
#10 npc_dave Dec 31, 2004 14:10:31	I have been thinking about the likelihood of Glantri engaging in an offensive war, and I have to raise some objections based on its political structure. In general, you need a strong, single power(centralized) government to be able to wage an offensive war. A defensive war everybody will band together, or at least loosely work together, to fight, with at least the intention being that after the war things go back to the way they were. But for offensive war, with a prolonged campaign, plus an occupation of new territory, you have to give the decision-making over to just a few decision-makers. And that is exactly what you DON'T have in Glantri. Now in 927AC Glantri's political makeup was not exactly as it is now, but there were still ten principalities, the elven principality breaking up in two around 900AC. Each of these ten principalities competes for power, and to go to war, those principalities have to put one of their number in charge of the war effort. Here begins the problem, which one? All will have to contribute money, men, and magic. Each of the other nine will have to give these to their rival who will command. But how can they trust this rival to not use the power to subjugate them? They can't. And with an occupation, that power will have to be concentrated in one principality's hands for some time to come. To protect against foreign attack, and put down rebels within the occupied territory. The other complication is that each of the princes wants to live as close to the capital as possible, because of the Radiance. Which of the rulers of the principalities would be willing to give up that to govern a remote section of land? Give it to a non-mage to govern, and then you worry about his loyalty. What if he decides to rebel and start a new country? In short, the balance of power as Glantri stands makes it impossible to wage offensive war beyond anything more than a retributive strike into enemy lands. The separation of powers is too great, and the princes don't trust each other. Each prince would weigh the benefit of a seaport with the risks. And the risk of losing their autonomy and own power makes that risk not worth the benefits.
#11 Cthulhudrew Dec 31, 2004 14:36:59	Now in 927AC Glantri's political makeup was not exactly as it is now, but there were still ten principalities, the elven principality breaking up in two around 900AC. You'd only have 9, actually, as Averoigne and its rulers disappeared into the Land of Grey Mists in 896 AC. I see your point, though. Here begins the problem, which one? All will have to contribute money, men, and magic. Each of the other nine will have to give these to their rival who will command. But how can they trust this rival to not use the power to subjugate them? They can't. As Gaz3 had it, several of the princes/esses commanded branches of the army, so command wasn't completely centralized. In times of war, however, as you note, it was (in 1000 AC, Jaggar was the Warden of the Marches and top general in wartime). I still wouldn't expect that any of the other commanders would completely relinquish control, however, and I could totally see many of them trying to capitalize on the situation. And with an occupation, that power will have to be concentrated in one principality's hands for some time to come. To protect against foreign attack, and put down rebels within the occupied territory. Each Principality has some degree of sovereignty- I could see an occupation being engaged in by one or more of the principalities, without necessarily having approval of the Council of Princes. The other complication is that each of the princes wants to live as close to the capital as possible, because of the Radiance. Which of the rulers of the principalities would be willing to give up that to govern a remote section of land? Give it to a non-mage to govern, and then you worry about his loyalty. What if he decides to rebel and start a new country? Bear in mind that most of the princes and nobles don't know about the Radiance. As of 1000 AC, only a handful know of its existence and draw upon its powers (Brannart, Etienne, and Vanserie, among the princes; and a couple of minor nobles and relatives). The establishment of the "pecking order" of the Radiance was instituted by Flaemish wizards who knew of the Radiance, as I interpret things, and while it has been the standard ever since, the rationale behind it isn't necessarily widespread knowledge. Any of the princes could give the dominion to a subordinate (presumably a mage of some sort) to govern, and I could see many people jump at the chance to get a foothold in the noble system, and further, to impress their superiors with what a good job they were doing maintaining a "barbarian" dominion so that when the next round of dominion jumping came around, they could advance and get out of that hellhole. As for the loyalty issue, you're going to have that anywhere you go, anytime you turn over lands to someone else. Happened throughout history, but people nevertheless took the risks. In short, the balance of power as Glantri stands makes it impossible to wage offensive war beyond anything more than a retributive strike into enemy lands. The separation of powers is too great, and the princes don't trust each other. This I can definitely agree with. Perhaps, then, it was Glantri's initial attempts at colonization that led to the mobilization of the Atruaghin forces, who threatened to invade Glantri in retaliation, thus prompting Darokin's intervention.
#12 Hugin Jan 02, 2005 23:31:24	When I thought about this senario I figured it would have likely only have been a few principalities that came together to do something to increase their status and wealth. They saw this as a fairly easy and low risk land grab that kept getting more complicated, involving more participants, and eventually created a threat to Glantri. Sometimes simple things get out of hand, and external threats lead to unification (even if it is mostly temporary and superfical). I'd imagine that these events spanned several years and was far more involving than the basic plot given here. Come to think of it, I wonder how these events affected the organization of Glantri's military and various alliances between nobles. This time in Glantri's history could have been absolutely riddled with political intrigue!