Reminds me of D&D 1st ed. covers, which I didn't like.
It just doesn't say Dregoth to me. Something closer to what was on CbtSS would be better IMO.
Still looking through the rest of the doc.
I'll add that the background is good, I just don't like the "image" of Dregoth is all, even if it is an illusion or whatever.
but something could be done with the text to make it appear less "1st-editionish".
Agreed.
1. The frontpage layout looks like a 1st edition D&D adventure what with its yellow lettering and the little phrase at the bottom about how this is a DS adventure.
2. The inclusion of a "Part 1" and of a two-points symbol (i.e. : ) in the title is not a good thing. They can actually appear on page 2, like they already do.
3. Making the title have a rainbow shape makes you think, with its yellow color on green, that it is a Wizard of Oz book.
4. Not all of the the image need be present on the frontpage: a kind of frame would be required because the intense colors of the pic ultimately clash with any type or color of lettering applied to it. The frame would hide at least half the picture, especially the green. I'd say only show the part of the pic from above Dregoth's righ hand to below the victims on the ground. I suggest looking at City of the Spider Queen for inspiration. The frontpage art would reappear after the Legal Notice section as full-page art, like in Dragon Magazines, or as in Dragon Kings, for example.
5. The sun symbol around the page numbers inside the adventure needs to be removed. A replacement could be found by treating one of the existing background symbols with photoshop, or asking the artist who did the background to create a single new symbol specifically for the page numbers.
6. The way the page numbers are marked in City-State of Draj is superior to DA. Get rid of the Bold numbers and have them alternate, under a black line, from left to right depending on which "side" of the document the page belongs to, i.e. pages that are multiples of 2 appear on the left if you print DA...
Remember that Dregoth uses illusions to appear as a living dragon. I think the picture is awesome, but something could be done with the text to make it appear less "1st-editionish".
First, dont bent the text, keep it straight. Second, put a logo in the middle of the top, best would be the official one, the one Brom did, like in the latest Dragon. Third, make the "Dregoth Ascending" smaller and use a font simliar to that of CbtSS, make it white, and use a black outline, the yelllow blends too much into the Sun. I'm not sure about the Part 1 and the adventure for stuff, anyway, those are only suggestions, and I like the cover, honestly, it was surely a lot of work. I respect Raven for this.
No offense to Raven, I'm sure he's done better art, BUT I can't stands the cover art.
I have the original art with me and its good art, appropriate.
Its the layout of the frontpage - yellow lettering, raibow-title - that conflicts with it.
When seen as standalone art, no markings on it, it grows on you. I like that pic a lot.
Look back on my earlier post to see my opinion of how this should be remedied.
2) The little suns have got to go, bring back the older sun design that use to be on that athas.org website (or maybe it still is, not the revised DS box set one, though that one is cool too, there was another), much better than what's currently in the doc.
Tony Lone Fight has a good image on pg. 26 as well.
Most of the colors are great as well, and all I have to say is Bosco kicks some major ass! Great work man, best Dray I've seen yet. (pg. 31) #1 fave.
Lau's is good too. (pg. 34)
Tony Lone Fight's Keelorr Dark Moon in the appendix is my #2 fav at this point I think (pg.42). Great job!
3) As far as layout, I like it, and the only thing I would change is the hyperlinks, and then it's just the color that needs changed and maybe bolded some more or something. That green is just a bit hard to see. Maybe a darker green if you want to stay within the green spectrum.
All and all I like what is presented layout and art wise.
Great job all around people!
I need to print this puppy out and read it over my New Year's break.
I have the original art with me and its good art, appropriate.
I'll have to take a look at that again. Not sure I have that.
You're right, the layout clashes with it too, but I just don't like the image at all, minus the background, the way Dregoth looks in that is just an eye sore to me.
Sorry.
I say keep the background and redo Dregoth if you can, and kill some of that yellow and it will be good, for me anyways.
We've got a much cooler cover layout set up for the non-playtest release, the work on it just didn't make the release deadline (you DID want it before the holidays, right? :D ).
The sun on the page number: yeah, we know. Too bold. Again, working on it. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
As to Dregoth's look: sorry, Nyt, my intention was to do a skeletal/emaciated dragon for Dregoth, but Jon swatted my nose with a magical lead club and told me "No! He looks alive!" So yell at Jon about it ;) Or better yet, suck it up and live with it!
Also, I'm putting some final touches on the cover illustration (I (mis)estimated the view would be at a smaller size than what it is, hence the "pencil lines" in the image...you can't see them at the size I painted it at, but do not fear: those will be gone with the update).
Please, keep the comments coming!
We're looking into alternative symbols for the page numbers. Feel free to come up with suggestions.
Plain numbers is the best IMO, my seem boring but appropriate, the page number should be clear and visible, the content of the document, the great art and the fantastic informations, are more important.
We're looking into alternative symbols for the page numbers. Feel free to come up with suggestions.
Why not just use the DS3e logo, replacing the DS3 with the numbers of course.
That's one of my favorite newer logos anyways, and the one I was referring to earlier I think.
Just not sure it's fitting for this product, something similar to that would be cool though.
Please, keep the comments coming!
Raven, something funky became apparent when it got integrated into DA: your orange electronic signature.
Can you remove that layer? Replace it with a scan of your hand-written signature, black please, or sign using an electronic pen or something, because that signature looks like it came from a b&w Macintosh computer from the 80s!
[/rant]
To everyone who doesn't like the cover layout/text: don't worry, man! Gab and I threw that together just to have something out there (and yes, I agree, it looks dated).
Ok, whew, thought I was walking on egg shells there, hehe.
We've got a much cooler cover layout set up for the non-playtest release, the work on it just didn't make the release deadline (you DID want it before the holidays, right? :D ).
Oh I'm sure that will be looked over now, heh.
As to Dregoth's look: sorry, Nyt, my intention was to do a skeletal/emaciated dragon for Dregoth, but Jon swatted my nose with a magical lead club and told me "No! He looks alive!" So yell at Jon about it ;) Or better yet, suck it up and live with it!
Yeah, I hate that too and totally forgot he was running around with an illusion up.
Totally against his character IMO, esp if he's trying to look like that wuss Borys, but what can you do?
As to Dregoth's look: sorry, Nyt, my intention was to do a skeletal/emaciated dragon for Dregoth, but Jon swatted my nose with a magical lead club and told me "No! He looks alive!" So yell at Jon about it Or better yet, suck it up and live with it!
Actually, it was Pennarin that pointed it out to me that Dregoth used illusions to appear alive. *masterfully redirects blame* I agree that he doesn't have much reason to appear as a living dragon since the remaining SKs know about his plan - but apparently, Dregoth has an issue with his appearance. He wants to appear "pertty" to his loyal dray subjects. It is all revealed in "Dregoth - a beneath the rotting flaps of skin interview". :D
Might be a shock to them if they found out that their 'god' had been killed.
"how can a god die? hey maybe he aint a god?"
Raven, something funky became apparent when it got integrated into DA: your orange electronic signature.
Arg...
1) It's supposed to be red, not orange. The color is no problem, though, I can easily change that to black, or something slightly less prone to weird color seepage. Like hot pink, or a nice fuschia! Maybe with a rainbow-effect! Mmm, yeah! ;)
2) I did sign it with an electronic pen (and my computer could probably kick your computer's ass ;) In fact, it is incensed that you refered to it as an 1980's Macintosh -- hush now, my sweet silcon-chips, he didn't mean it...no, no, don't erase all his banking information...shhhhhh...).
Seriously, though, my handwriting sucks -- you can actually make out letters in that signature, which is surprising. Normally, I have a doctor's signature.
Tangentially-related anecdote: my son's teacher called one day, slightly upset, and told my wife my son had signed his own permission slip. Well, he hadn't...I just have the handwriting of a seven-year old! Yay! ("You're SURE that's your husband's signature?")
So, er, yeah: "That really is my signature." Not sure what I can do about that for you?
Ok, whew, I thought I was walking on eggshells there, hehe.
No problem, Nyt. I'm an adult, so I can accept (constructive) criticism of my work, and I enjoy it since you can't improve if all you ever recieve are compliments. (In fact, I can probably criticize it better than you can!)
Regarding the other image you linked to: I love that one. I originally did that mostly with a mouse a few years ago, then cleaned it up a couple months back with pen and tablet when I was bored and "in a creative rut". Came out very nice. Incidentally, the rut was caused by my (obsessive) disatisfaction with the piece I did for "Whispers of the Storm", and working on the "lich" image is one of the main things that helped me get over it.
2) I did sign it with an electronic pen (and my computer could probably kick your computer's ass ;) In fact, it is incensed that you refered to it as an 1980's Macintosh -- hush now, my sweet silcon-chips, he didn't mean it...no, no, don't erase all his banking information...shhhhhh...).
It is a mac right? G5?
/me drools
Seriously, though, my handwriting sucks -- you can actually make out letters in that signature, which is surprising. Normally, I have a doctor's signature.
Wait until you see mine, ha!
No problem, Nyt. I'm an adult, so I can accept (constructive) criticism of my work, and I enjoy it since you can't improve if all you ever recieve are compliments.
;)
(In fact, I can probably criticize it better than you can!)
LOL!
I just couldn't help but think this was some lost 1st ed D&D module that I never seen before when I first saw the cover, heh.
Really love the green azure sky and the background though.
2)> The page layouts are cool. I like the sun around the numbers.
3)> Dregoth should look more like the Dragon on the cover of VoDaF. He needs more of that primal, almost pterodactyl look,and the skinny, emaciated look was in my opinion one of the defining characteristics of Athasian dragons.
It is a mac right? G5?
Nope. Just a totally wigged-out PC-rig designed to handle high-end graphics (and gaming -- but the hardware required for each is pretty much the same). If anyone is wondering, I built it myself.
Really love the green azure sky and the background though.
It's olive. Or it is supposed to be, as that is the given color of Athas' sky. The original version had a nice flourescent green cast, similar to the color of the larger moon. I liked it, but Pennarin and Jon said, "GOD NO!" :D
Now, I do have a comment on the layout: I noticed a number of widows in the module -- and I'm not talking NPCs. ;)
Orphan is a term used to describe a single word appearing at the bottom of a paragraph or column. A widow is a single word or short phrase appearing alone at the top of column. They add "rivers" of white space and interfere with eye movement from one line of text to the next.
You should also avoid putting less than three lines of a new paragraph at the bottom of a column. Fewer than three lines will make it harder for the reader to keep information organized.
As I flipped through, I noticed a number of pages either end with two lines starting a new section that is continued on the following page, or a new page starts with the end two lines of a section from the previous page. I wasn't looking for orphans, so there could be some, but I did notice the widows. Definitely fix those, however you can.
I can go through and list the pages where it is happening if you would like?
Nope. Just a totally wigged-out PC-rig designed to handle high-end graphics (and gaming -- but the hardware required for each is pretty much the same). If anyone is wondering, I built it myself.
Miss those days, ah well, I'm making the switch soon.
It's olive. Or it is supposed to be, as that is the given color of Athas' sky.
I'm color blind, don't mind me.
I remember the descriptions of the sky though, good call.
The original version had a nice flourescent green cast, similar to the color of the larger moon. I liked it, but Pennarin and Jon said, "GOD NO!" :D
Whew!
;)
I think that the DS logo on top of the page should be the same one from Valley of Dust and Fire...
I asked about that, too, but for use on the cover. We cannot legally utilize any logos owned by TSR/WotC.
Dregoth should look more like the Dragon on the cover of VoDaF. He needs more of that primal, almost pterodactyl look,and the skinny, emaciated look was in my opinion one of the defining characteristics of Athasian dragons.
{whistles innocently and doesn't look at Pennarin} Funny you should mention that...
Just so you understand why I did it this way: I took my cue from the illustrations of the stages of dragon metamorphasis found in Dragon Kings. Since the "emaciated, human-like" dragon was only depicted for stages 3-7 (maybe 8), and Dregoth was in the 9th stage and on the verge of entering the 10th stage of dragonhood, I went with the purer dragon-like form.
Now, whether you agree with that decision isn't something I can argue with, and whatever you feel about my choice is just fine with me. In fact, whether I'd do that again in another illustration...I don't know. Depends on whether aesthetics or canon was my concern.
Actually, it was Pennarin that pointed it out to me that Dregoth used illusions to appear alive. *masterfully redirects blame*
That is a shameful lie! I ordered one Undead Dregoth to go, but who told me that he needed to be fat and plumpy? Huh!? ;)
It's not exactly what I intended when I made the suggestion.
The idea was not to take a bite out of an image and put the name there, but have a zone under the image with the name in it.
How I'd do it:
Insert image into a page.
Draw shape around it, telling the computer to match the text to the shape.
At the bottom of the image, have a bump in the shape, a single line deep, in which to put the name.
Some might not require it if they have a readable signature.
Some might not require it if they have a readable signature.
I resent your devious and underhanded way of making fun of my signatory ability without really appearing to do so! ;)
I think Zar should be on the cover, but that is a silly request... alot of work went into the picture that you have.
I think the Dark Sun logo should be on the cover and a better non-single chromatic font should be used for the title.
The interior art was grand. I'm sorry I missed the window to submit things. Any need for a Kalin rider in the next book? I'm drawing one inspired by the Nazguul right now.
Oh-Almost forgot !!! The only picture I've seen which is from 2e and is suppossed to be Dregoth is on the cover of City by the Silt Sea, and he looks pretty tall and skinny.........
Not trying to be a pest, just trying to lend my very humble and miniscule opinion....
I'm sorry I missed the window to submit things. Any need for a Kalin rider in the next book? I'm drawing one inspired by the Nazguul right now.
It's not too late to contribute art for Part I, though in any case I'll have my art assistant (Pennarin) send you some instructions for Part II illustrations when I have some requests.
Would prefer to see the victims of Dregoth turning to ash, maybe a few close ones that are ashen outlines of people, ones further back half ash (like an arm or something) and others fleeing/scared. Just not a fan of the yellow spell effect.
and he looks pretty tall and skinny
Yeah, he was on the supermodel diet :D
I like the Dray on page 9 by Robert Schaffer.
I really like the picture on page 14 of the three guys on the wall, i like that style of artwork.
I think you have to be careful that the dray look like dray, the one on page 26 (mounted on the spider) looks a lot like a Pterran.
Like the color pic of Keelor. (yay color!)
Nearly said i really like the pic on page 30, and i do, but i looked at the face, and head and it looks like a Psi-Stalker from Rifts. coincidence? Love the turtle shield anyway.
My fav pic is the colour Zarkat. Looks really good. Looks totally badass.
I also like the last map, with the big gold symbol that just says "dregoth'. it SHOULD say 'please dont go here. he doesnt have stats yet! cant you wait for the climactic fight in the steeples!" :D
I'm just a bit confused as to why its not on that page.
Would prefer to see the victims of Dregoth turning to ash, maybe a few close ones that are ashen outlines of people, ones further back half ash (like an arm or something) and others fleeing/scared. Just not a fan of the yellow spell effect.
Dregoth needed to be depicted large enough to show his size (and might), so that makes everyone else pretty small by comparaison, making it difficult to show people being turned to ash. At that size they would like gray humans.
And about that yellow spell, you should reread the last chapters of The Verdant Passage, because that's what happens visually when a dragon uses dragon magic on people: a golden light comes out of their body (plant life energy is green) and flows to the dragon.
I did the art for Keelor on page 29(thanks the the guys at Athas.org for letting me in on the project at the last minute by the way) and any feedback/ constructive criticism would be welcome. It was a bit of a rush job, so future works from me will likely be of a higher quality.
All my issues with the layout ect.. have already been addressed above, so I just want to add that all the other artists did a good job. Particularly Tony Lone Fight and Herman Lau
I certainly had fun doing the sketching... look forward to working with you all gain!
tony
I've taken to watching dvd's frame by frame until I find someone in a pose that I can use and then sketching the figure from the TV! hehe
It's hard sometimes finding a good pose that's not too blurry or the character completely in the shot.
And of course no one's holding a sword or whatever they are supposed to be holding. I'm thinking about getting some of my friends together and take picture of them posing with swords so I can get pics of their hands -- hands holding stuff is a big problem of mine.
But I'm glad you all liked the images!
Tony