In This Thread I'd like to see ideas for the Following Prestige Classes.
A 10 level epic advancement towards full metamorphosis with the following
Dragon - dealing with physical capabilities at each level, modifications to magic and spell casting, and any alterations to psionic powers. Keeping in mind innate permanent abilities like ESP and Tongues etc. Also looking at Spell Resistance Progression and determining how best to qualify combat abilities (in 2E, a 30th level dragon was the equivalent to a 23rd level fighter in Thac0, and did as much damage as the oldest red dragon physically).
Avangion - dealing with physical capabilities at each level, modifications to magic and spellcasting, any alterations to psionic powers. Keeping in mind innate permanent abilities like ESP and Tongues etc. Also looking at Spell Resistance Progression and the effects of that Aura.
Elemental Priest - Powers both as an Elemental Priest of high level, and also as an elemental, and should we require psionics to be necessary?
Spirit of the Land - Powers as a Spirit, and does anyone think a spirit should be absolute on it's home terf? The Spirit of the city of Urik was able to beat back a raving Hamannu and also use it's abilities to remove Rajaat's curse, the dragon metamorphosis, from his greatest champion. (Now that's one heck of a dispel magic spell!!)
An Epic Level Sun Wizard - to be added to a Dragon or Avangion with powers above what was detailed in a previous thread.
A Champion Class - to be used with or after a Dragon or Avangion Class. Granting innate powers like Hamannu's Eye's of Fire, and an afinity with using the energy of the undead. A species Enemy should be required. (Hamannu made a reference to Dragon's using Animal energy for spells, Champions hoarding the life energy of the undead, and himself and Sadira using Sun energy, though his was greater.)
Let the Posting Begin!!
I think that Champions are even beyond the epic level of power. I think that Champions should have abilities covered in Dieties & Demigods.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I believe that the Champions were powerful, but no where near Deity status.
I also believe that Rajaat brought the Champions to the first step of dragonhood and that "Champion" was nothing more than a title. Not a template. At the most, I'd say it was nothing more than a 5 level PrC.
Thats just IMO though. :D
I don't necessarily agree with this. I believe that the Champions were powerful, but no where near Deity status.
I also believe that Rajaat brought the Champions to the first step of dragonhood and that "Champion" was nothing more than a title. Not a template. At the most, I'd say it was nothing more than a 5 level PrC.
I'd agree with the Title Champion being a title not a template, however there is alot of evidence to say that the Champions were beyond the capacity of mere mortals.
- The Champions were able to grant spells to their Templars which is a uniquely divine characteristic. In the Dragon Kings book it said that this was because of Elemental Conduits Rajaat attached to his Champions. The sounds alot like mana to me.
- PC Dragons and Avangions cannot grant spells.
- The champions are immortal and physically potent in ways beyond epic level skills. Look at Hamanu's Lion form in The Crimson Legion. Or Hamanu's true emaciated body in RaFoaDK. Dregoth's undead state not effecting his ability to grant spells. There was a life expanding spell listed in Dragon Kings, but the books make no mention of spells, the Champions are simply immortal.
- Not completely canon, but Lynne Abbey's book had Hamanu (while not Omniscient), but able to have many avatars of a sort interacting with his city.
- The Champions were immune to normal weapons as evidence by Rikus having to swing around the Scourge. Is there a list of mortal spells that the champions casted on themselves with permament effects? Or did the Champions have magic items for that effect? Is the the immunities granted due to a prestige class enyone can earn with enough effort? It is simpler to say that the Champions had those immunities by benefit of being Champions created by Rajaat.
- Sacha and Wyan were not dead even though they were just heads. Was it the Championness keeping them alive or were they undead? Regardless Sacha and Wyan were the ones granting Kalak's Templars their spells.
I'm not saying that The Champions should be treated as veritable gods, but their powers do mimic the effects gods have. Because the Champions were created by Rajaat through the Dark Lens, they should have powers and abilities that you can only get by having Rajaat with the Dark Lens can give you no matter how much xp you earn.
Not to dampen your spirits, but these have been discussed many times, and currently Athas.org is working on epic rules of their own. If you do a search of the boards I'm sure you can find a bunch of threads on this topic.
Well, I haven't looked through every thread on this website, but I have checked all the tittles, no one seemed to have anything on making Epic Level Dragon or Avangion Classes. If I'm wrong, please leave a link And if Athas.org has info on that as well, I'd love to see a link for that too. If not, then why not make up a few ideas of our own??
I'd agree with the Title Champion being a title not a template, however there is alot of evidence to say that the Champions were beyond the capacity of mere mortals....
I'm not saying that The Champions should be treated as veritable gods, but their powers do mimic the effects gods have. Because the Champions were created by Rajaat through the Dark Lens, they should have powers and abilities that you can only get by having Rajaat with the Dark Lens can give you no matter how much xp you earn.
I agree with the Dark Lense being a requirement, maybe even Rajaat. Don't forget also in Troy Dennings Rise and Fall of a Dragon King that the other champions also wanted Hamannu to creat others like them. Hamannu also stated to Sadira that there was indeed a difference between a Dragon like Kalak, and a Champion like Borys, and between Borys and Hamannu there was a difference.
Remember also that the Champions couldn't find a way to kill each other for a long time (Didn't quite succeed with Dregoth, nor with Sacha and Wyan). Maybe a Prestige Class isn't the right way to go, but then, perhaps a template? (I'm not too familiar with how templates work, but wouldn't that grant a sufficient amount of abilities to equal what Hamannu and the rest had that were above and beyond normal Dragons?) Those eyes of fire seemed something additional and specific to Hamannu.
Don't forget also in Troy Dennings Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
The author is Lynn Abbey, not Troy Denning.
It's also not exactly canon, but some of us treat it as such.
I agree with the Dark Lense being a requirement, maybe even Rajaat. Don't forget also in Troy Dennings Rise and Fall of a Dragon King that the other champions also wanted Hamannu to creat others like them. Hamannu also stated to Sadira that there was indeed a difference between a Dragon like Kalak, and a Champion like Borys, and between Borys and Hamannu there was a difference.
Lynne Abbey wrote Rise and Fall of a Dragon King and i think athas.org's stance is that it's not entirely canonical. Personally I think it is a better written book than the Prism Pentad and I'd like to make it official.
Remember also that the Champions couldn't find a way to kill each other for a long time (Didn't quite succeed with Dregoth, nor with Sacha and Wyan). Maybe a Prestige Class isn't the right way to go, but then, perhaps a template? (I'm not too familiar with how templates work, but wouldn't that grant a sufficient amount of abilities to equal what Hamannu and the rest had that were above and beyond normal Dragons?) Those eyes of fire seemed something additional and specific to Hamannu.
I don't think that templates or prestige class are the answer. I think that a cap system of elemental conduit powers for the Main Elemental Lords, Spirits of the Land and Rajaat and his Champions is. Each one can grant spells and each one vie for the elemental energy to empower their magic.
The Elemental Lords get their ability to grant spells from the power of the planes that they live in.
The Spirits of the Land get their powers and spell granting ability from the energy in Athas itself.
The Champions get their powers and spell granting abilities from the energy conduits tied to them through the Dark Lens.
I will post the document if you are interested.
Which makes me ask a question, does Dregoth have access to the Dark Lens? How is his spell have the authority to manipulate the elemental conduits? Also is , Dregoth's spell effecting the conduits that feed the other Champions?
The author is Lynn Abbey, not Troy Denning.
It's also not exactly canon, but some of us treat it as such.
My mistake, thanks for the refresher, I reread it a while ago, but sometimes I mix authors. :P
Well, I haven't looked through every thread on this website, but I have checked all the tittles, no one seemed to have anything on making Epic Level Dragon or Avangion Classes. If I'm wrong, please leave a link And if Athas.org has info on that as well, I'd love to see a link for that too. If not, then why not make up a few ideas of our own??
I'm too lazy to search for all the links and post them, but the search feature is working. I had luck finding some threads with the search phrase "avangion rules". Also, many of the 3e/3.5e ideas come from Xlorepdarkhelm, who I believe is currently being employed as part of the Epic Rules Bureau at Athas.org. They haven't released anything epic yet, but I suppose work is always progressing.
I'm sure others keep better track of important threads than I do so maybe someone else can post links?
Dragon
Level
1 Attack Bonus +0
Tongues
2 Attack Bonus +1
3 Attack Bonus +2
4 Attack Bonus +3
NA Bonus (+6), Claw Attack x2 (2d10 each)
5 Attack Bonus +4
NA Bonus (+10), Bite Attack (4d12), DR?
6 Attack Bonus +6
NA Bonus (+12), Claw Attack x2 (2d10+5 each), Jump Skill Bonus (+20)
7 Attack Bonus +8
NA Bonus (+14), Breath Weapon (10d12)
8 Attack Bonus +10
NA Bonus (+16), Claw Attack x2( 2d10+10 eachj),Tail Attack (5d10), DR? SR?
9 Attack Bonus +12
NA Bonus (+18), Fly MV 45 C, Breath Weapon (20d12), SR?
10 Attack Bonus +14
NA Bonus (+20), Fly MV 90 A, Claw Attack x2(2d10+15), Breath Weapon (25d12), SR?
I don't know the rules entirely well to convert some of 2e over, a dragon gets immunity to +1 and then +2 weapons, and magic resistance goes from 20,40,to finally 80%. Any Suggestions/ comments?
But if you just want to do your own thing that's cool too.
I agree with the Dark Lense being a requirement, maybe even Rajaat. Don't forget also in Troy Dennings Rise and Fall of a Dragon King that the other champions also wanted Hamannu to creat others like them. Hamannu also stated to Sadira that there was indeed a difference between a Dragon like Kalak, and a Champion like Borys, and between Borys and Hamannu there was a difference.
The Champions wanting, as you say, Hamanu to make other Champions like them is not what's going on in RaFoaDK.
During the course of the novel, Hamanu is contacted one way or another by the other SKs who tell him they all need a new Dragon, for the sake of life as they know it on Athas, for humanity's sake, and for their own.
They tell Hamanu they have chosen him to be the new Dragon, in replacement of Borys. The SKs say that if Hamanu does not comply, they will lay waste upon his precious city with their combined armies. Hamanu gives himself up to save his city and the ideals he beileves in (race, hope for the future, ...) and instead goes out to meet those combined armies and drains them of life, becoming a full dragon but saving his city. With his increased power he goes on to try and deal with Rajaat who has grown more powerful and more free in the in-between years since the end of Prism Pentad 5.
I hope its a little clearer.
The Official rules for Dragons should be just around the corner.
drool, drool.... :D :D
Yes, this is something that is being worked on by the Epic Bureau. The Official rules for Dragons should be just around the corner.
Any chance you can give us an idea of the differentiation between Champions and Dragons? Have you covered how Champions can grant spells?
This stuff about the SKs drawing power from the Dark Lens to grant spells is nonsense. In all the supplements that mention this, it is the living vortices they were tied to. In fact, in a certain supplement being released in pieces, one of these vortices is a plot device. The Dark Lens is only necessary to quickly create dragons. There are no more living vortices except for the ones attached to the SKs, (the vortices became extinct at some point after they were given their powers) and that alone is why new advanced beings cannot grant spells, there is no vortex to attach to them.
The Dark Lens facilitated the Elemental Vortices' power to be funneled to the Champions. Or more specifically, Rajaat, using the Dark Lens, created his Champions and Elemental Vortices were attached to the Champions in the process. It is not nonsense, it is trying to discern the actual source of how the Champions got the god-like power that they have, and what needs to be done to repeat the process, if it can be done. It is trying to discern if there is something more fundimentally more powerful to the Champions than a mortal dragon of the same level. Does all the vortices do is champions them the ability to grant spells? Nothing else? Could Rajaat grant spells?
In Dregoth Ascending, Dregoth is attempting to subvert the conduits that flows from the elemental planes to the elemental clerics from flowing the inner planes to the clerics to the outerplanes to himself. It is not just one conduit, it is ALL the conduits. I'm guessing that is why the adventure gets epic by the third chapter.
As for the Dark Lens' only use is the hyper-advancement of mortal folks to immortal dragon-kings, I think the Dark Lens was only a tool that Rajaat used to power his spell. I think the Dark Lens is a focus for elemental power with strong ties to the element of Water. Remember it was originally created to defeat the Brown Tide back in the blue age. And I don't think that it is the only method for the transformation that you speak of either. Kalak in Prisim Pentad was trying to transform himself into a Dragon with obsidian orbs. In the rules it was described as trying to go from 21st to 30th level in one fell swoop. I would have interpreted it as Kalak trying to grant himself the physical powers that a Champion has, such as unassisted immortality, transformative abilities, immunities to whatever, and granting of spells personally. (I think it is canon that Kalak was using the decapitated duo to grant spells) Whether or not he would have been successful is up to you, but I think that is what he was trying to do.
I think the existance of the Dark Lens enables the Champions to have their power. It has a grip on the fabric of the existance of Athas so complete it's very existance effects the fundimental nature of reality. It was made to combat the Brown Tide and bring pristine waters to Athas, instead the water on Athas has been slowly drying up. I think there is a connection between what fuels the Champions and the state of Athas.
(I think it is canon that Kalak was using the decapitated duo to grant spells)
Nope, that's from RaFoaDK, which isn't considered canon, well only by some, myself included.
As far as Athas.org is concerned it's not though.
If it was, then that article I wrote on Kalak not being a champion would of had more weight.
Nope, that's from RaFoaDK, which isn't considered canon, well only by some, myself included.
As far as Athas.org is concerned it's not though.
If it was, then that article I wrote on Kalak not being a champion would of had more weight.
Well Nyt I think we agree on something!
Well Nyt I think we agree on something!
That was never in dispute.
Even Oronis? He reformed. 'Course, he could be crazy , too.......
I seriously doubt Oronis is as sane as you think he is. I'm pretty sure all of the remaining champions, which then later became SMs, have some mental issues here and there, some just more than others.
I seriously doubt Oronis is as sane as you think he is. I'm pretty sure all of the remaining champions, which then later became SMs, have some mental issues here and there, some just more than others.
I think Oronis is GUILTY! SO VERY GUILTY! ANGUISH! (I bet he gets his Templars to spank him)
Seriously, Oronis is the best of the lot, but he is still a bit of a meglomaniac. I mean being in secret during his transformation was important because of his vulnerability, but now that he's back up to speed, but an Avangion, he still maintains a hidden fortress and valley where he is the undesputed master. And if you are going to take Brax's work on New Kurn in any canonical sence, there are still strong martial and sinister aspects to his spy network.
A horse of a different color is still a horse.
And if you are going to take Brax's work on New Kurn in any canonical sence, there are still strong martial and sinister aspects to his spy network.
Why wouldn't I? Great accessory.
A horse of a different color is still a horse.
Pretty much what I was getting at, so agreed.
This stuff about the SKs drawing power from the Dark Lens to grant spells is nonsense. In all the supplements that mention this, it is the living vortices they were tied to. In fact, in a certain supplement being released in pieces, one of these vortices is a plot device. The Dark Lens is only necessary to quickly create dragons.
Ok I'm pretty tired of this, and you may bash me later to your heart's content, but this is getting tiering!
Its not nonsense, its from the novels!
What you gotta accept TerminusVortexa, and some others as well, is that there is a whole universe beyond canon and that, to many, parts of that universe are more important than canon!
A lot of people hate living vortices and prefer to them Abbey's Dark Lens connections, be they canon or not. We can voice that opinion to our heart's content, and what you can do about it, at the utmost, is say you do not share that opinion and why. You may try to turn us to your way of thinking too, but saying such a thing "is nonsense" is the same as saying we (those of us who adhere to that way of thinking) are but a bunch of confused people that don't or won't see the light.
That's hurtful.
There are more than one DS, the so-called canon DS. In fact there are half a dozen DSs around, and people post based on their own perception of DS. In a respectful manner.
[/end of serious rant, I was overdue]
EDIT: I asked for opinions on that rant, so do know TerminusVortexa that the rant is not against you personnaly (i.e. an attack on your character, for example) but against some comments that can be made, by anyone. Some people say "Its not canon" in answer to a thousand words post, totally disregarding the good work done by that person. When XlorepDarkHelm posts about his time-travelling Oronis (a well-know non-canon theory), people don't ignore him or mock him or disregard him because that theory is not canon.
I think they are both true.
The Dark Lens drew the vortices to the Champions. The Champions get their power from the Vortices, but it is the Dark Lens that channels the power.
You see the name is a give away. Does light come from a lens? A lens merely focuses. The elemental energy that was named the living vortices does exist, but the Lens focuses it on the Champions as per the spell Rajaat cast through it. AS long as the lens exists be it in a magma flow or in Ur-Draxa, the Champions will get the power siphoned to them.
The question I'm asking is the elemental energy that the Champoions recieve; does it change their fundimental nature? Does it allow them more then just granting their spells? Dragon Kings says that they can only redirect the power and not use it, but is the state of being a conduit for that much power give you beneifits? Like immortality and immunity to hunger and thirst?
Here's a simple question: How long can a Champion hold its breath?
Now if it was name the Dark Light Bulb that would be a different matter alltogether. :P
The book that describe in more detail the powers of a Champion, Abbey's RaFoaDK, says that a Champion drained of its life energy doesn't die, but the result is the same as for Sacha or Wyan. So they are really resilient. Also, Champions could not kill each other for the first millenia or so of their existence, even with their great power. It took them ages to learn to kill each other. Also a Champion does not need to eat or breath apparently, but can do so if it pleases him.
Should all of this be part of the same power that allows you to grant spells to templars? Why not. I do prefer the idea that a Champion of Rajaat is a template, like a kaisharga or t'liz, but in the end its pretty immaterial.
Which makes me ask a question, does Dregoth have access to the Dark Lens? How is his spell have the authority to manipulate the elemental conduits? Also is , Dregoth's spell effecting the conduits that feed the other Champions?
Dregoth does not have access to the Dark Lens. The Godhood spell is a 10 stage epic spell which affects all divine magic on Athas, including the spells granted by the other SKs to their templars.
As for divine abilities... methinks not, or maybe a select few (aura for example)
I think that Champions are even beyond the epic level of power. I think that Champions should have abilities covered in Dieties & Demigods.
10 levels maybe a little... overpowered... in terms of progressions.... i still think it can be done... but maybe a 2 x 10 system or 1 x 10 prestige class + 1 x 10 epic prestige class....
Balance - i hate that word - seems to dictate that it's hard to construct a 10-level metamorphis system. I still think a 10-level system is the most logical construct for it, but it's gotta work with the system.
By all means, build your system, then post it and send it to athas.org, it may contain idea's they have overlooked, they are mortals after all ;)
Can't wait to see the final conversions!
Ok, here's a start on a progression of sorts for abilities gained by a Dragon in their ten stage Metamorphosis.
Dragon
Level
1 Attack Bonus +0
Tongues
2 Attack Bonus +1
3 Attack Bonus +2
4 Attack Bonus +3
NA Bonus (+6), Claw Attack x2 (2d10 each)
5 Attack Bonus +4
NA Bonus (+10), Bite Attack (4d12), DR?
6 Attack Bonus +6
NA Bonus (+12), Claw Attack x2 (2d10+5 each), Jump Skill Bonus (+20)
7 Attack Bonus +8
NA Bonus (+14), Breath Weapon (10d12)
8 Attack Bonus +10
NA Bonus (+16), Claw Attack x2( 2d10+10 eachj),Tail Attack (5d10), DR? SR?
9 Attack Bonus +12
NA Bonus (+18), Fly MV 45 C, Breath Weapon (20d12), SR?
10 Attack Bonus +14
NA Bonus (+20), Fly MV 90 A, Claw Attack x2(2d10+15), Breath Weapon (25d12), SR?
I don't know the rules entirely well to convert some of 2e over, a dragon gets immunity to +1 and then +2 weapons, and magic resistance goes from 20,40,to finally 80%. Any Suggestions/ comments?
;) ;)
10 levels maybe a little... overpowered... in terms of progressions.... i still think it can be done... but maybe a 2 x 10 system or 1 x 10 prestige class + 1 x 10 epic prestige class....
Balance - i hate that word - seems to dictate that it's hard to construct a 10-level metamorphis system. I still think a 10-level system is the most logical construct for it, but it's gotta work with the system.
I've stated this before, but I'm an advocate for the metamorphosis just being a series of templates which you receive after casting epic levels which you would need to have reached the prerequisites to cast (i.e. X number of ranks in spellcraft and so forth).
Heh, thats just IMO.
I think something similar to an epic version of Dragon Disciple PrC would also be needed and tied to the prerequisites of the spell(s) (i.e. Need to be a 2nd level in "Dragon PrC" to cast the second metamorphosis spell).
Should all of this be part of the same power that allows you to grant spells to templars? Why not. I do prefer the idea that a Champion of Rajaat is a template, like a kaisharga or t'liz, but in the end its pretty immaterial.
Personally, I think that the magic that altered the Champions altered their fundimental nature. Where Dragons and Avangions are Epic level prestige classes, the Champions are divine rank 0. There is a line between the Champions and PC folk and the most glaring symptom is the ability to grant spells. But I also think immortatlity, immunity to worldld needs and invulverability come with the package.
Dregoth does not have access to the Dark Lens. The Godhood spell is a 10 stage epic spell which affects all divine magic on Athas, including the spells granted by the other SKs to their templars.
/whistles That would really tick off Hamanu wouldn't it!
Does it effect Dregoth's own spell granting ability?I've stated this before, but I'm an advocate for the metamorphosis just being a series of templates which you receive after casting epic levels which you would need to have reached the prerequisites to cast (i.e. X number of ranks in spellcraft and so forth).
Heh, thats just IMO.
I think something similar to an epic version of Dragon Disciple PrC would also be needed and tied to the prerequisites of the spell(s) (i.e. Need to be a 2nd level in "Dragon PrC" to cast the second metamorphosis spell).
This could work too.... maybe three templates instead of 10 to reflect low,medium and high stages of the dragon / avignon metamorphis?
I'd say four templates, if that route were used, in keeping with the 2e examples of levels 21-23, 24-26, 27-29, and final 30th..
I want to know if anyone here has come up with an example of an avangion metamorphosis?? I've heard much about Dragons, but what about the others?? And any thoughts as to the difference between Hamannu's ability to draw energy from the sun, and Sadira's?? he had the ability, but rarely used it. When making his potion to hide himself from Rajaat, he took energy from living people, not the sun, and not shadow. (which it seems he also had access to.)
Anyone thought of Epic Level Shadow mages or Cerulians? (Stuff from the Defilers and Preservers of Athas Supplement.)
It makes sense to me that Elemental magics existed in the blue age, and perhaps the primary focus of the Dark Lense is to focus and amplify elemental energy. Life energy it can also amplify, but by mixing it with that elemental source.
Actually (I could be wrong on this) I think that in the Abbey novels - the novels that link the Lens to templars - its never said the Lens taps the elemental planes for power. They said it taps the sun. But since the templars in DS replace god-worshiping clerics, they spells they receive are still divine in nature. And since divine spells in DS come from one of the 4 elemental planes, its assumed the Lens grants spells by syphoning energy from those planes.
The Abbey novels say its from the sun; the confusion - if I can use that word - is from the attempt at merging Lens and elemental vortices: those last already syphon the elementnal planes, so its only natural its what the Lens does too, or so the reasoning goes.
All I'm really saying here is that the source that is being tapped by the Lens for those divine spells is not the elemental planes but rather the sun.
Argh! Tough question.
The book that describe in more detail the powers of a Champion, Abbey's RaFoaDK, says that a Champion drained of its life energy doesn't die, but the result is the same as for Sacha or Wyan. So they are really resilient. Also, Champions could not kill each other for the first millenia or so of their existence, even with their great power. It took them ages to learn to kill each other.
A question: how does she explain Kalid-Ma and Sielba?
It took them ages to learn to kill each other.
A question: how does she explain Kalid-Ma and Sielba?
Ages had passed :P
Interpretation A) Champions finally figure out how to kill each other and do so. Kalid-Ma and Sileba are killed. This is a bit unfriendly to the rationale behind the setting because if the Champions never did figure a way it would explain why they didn't, and still don't, kill each other (i.e. Nibenay hates Lalaly-Pui so he goes out and kills her). For the instances of Kalid-Ma, Sileba, and Dregoth's death, look at Interpretation B.
Interpretation B) Only Hamanu as ever figured out how to kill a Champion, or is the only one gifted by Rajaat with the ability/knowledge to do so. Plausible too, since Hamanu was present on all accounts of a Champion's death by the hands of other Champions.
Hamanu says some things on Lalali-Puy, Dregoth, Kalak, Borys, Rajaat, Pennarin, Sielba, Sacha, Wyan, and Myron, that I can recall.
She says Hamanu went to Sielba during the attack on Urik's land (IIRC in the form of a trade embarguo) and killed her with an obsidian dagger. There are many instances in her novels of extraordinay obsidian (not unlike the obsidian of the Lens) and he may have killed her with a weapon made of such a material. A few chapters before that Hamanu recollects the Champions trying really hard to kill each other in the past and utterly failing at it, Hamanu too. He then recollects that it was only ages later that the Champions learned how to kill other Champions. The knowledge wasn't there when Rajaat was defeated, so when Sacha and Wyan were caught trying to free their newly emprisonned master, the combined Champions could do no more than slow them down, bind them, and render them incapable of actions. What made them become floating heads is that they were bound close to the Tower hours before Borys turned into the Dragon there, so when Borys gathered the energy necessary to transform he drained the two bound Champions of their energy, releasing them from their bodies into the form of floating disembodied but still alive heads. How did Borys accomplish this? Its either from his superior dragon magic (he was greatly advanced into the metamorphosis because of the ritual happening at the Tower at that moment) or because he was gathering his energy by using the Tower. Since the Tower is uber it might have made it possible for him to drain even Champions.
Anyone thought of Epic Level Shadow mages or Cerulians? (Stuff from the Defilers and Preservers of Athas Supplement.)
But then again, they don't HAVE to......
Using another energy source than life energy would not give a dragon or avangion. Since the knowledge of arcane advanced beings leads all the way back to Rajaat, its very well possible that transformational processes for arcane spellcasters using alternative sources do not and cannot exist. (Necromants, for example, did not exist during the time Rajaat was free and dabbling in magic.)
If you follow the logical that you develop as a AB based on how to tap energy, then it makes sense that those who have two choices will eventually reflect both. A necromancer who progresses just a necomancer, will, INMHO eventuallt become an undead. A Shadow mage a Shadow. But those who choose a different path will become AB's with elements of either undeath or shadow.
Hmmm... Let me put it this way Pennarin. Shadow mages and Nercomancers have close affiliations with those two planes, right? They eventually adopt traits that reflect those affiliations, right? OK, now those changes will be present upon beginning the transformation into AB - nothing indicates that the dragon / avignon process will ersase those changes. That's how they wind up different.
I know it's a little out on the ledge, but it's an intriguing concept. And hey, they won't be more powerful than 'normal' AB's, just differnt.
I fail to see how having your essence closer to the Gray, or having shadowstuff in your body, is gonna make you into a dragon or avangion whose look and powers is gonna be different from other such ABs.
If you follow the logical that you develop as a AB based on how to tap energy, [...]
A dragon is an AB who taps life energy.
An AB that, somehow, exclusively taps energy from the Black (currently that's not a completely true statement) would become a creature whose powers are based on the Black. That creature would not be a dragon, or a "Black-dragon". It would become a whole new AB type, with totally different powers and a look all its own.
If Sadira were to become an AB that taps the sun, she would not become a dragon, or a "sun-dragon". She would become a whole new AB type, with totally different powers and a look all her own.
OK, Pennarin it's fairly obvious we've reached an impasse. I think AB's that evovle differently are possible, you don't.
A dragon is an AB who taps life energy.
An AB that, somehow, exclusively taps energy from the Black (currently that's not a completely true statement) would become a creature whose powers are based on the Black. That creature would not be a dragon, or a "Black-dragon".
Hmmm... Let me put it this way Pennarin. Shadow mages and Nercomancers have close affiliations with those two planes, right? They eventually adopt traits that reflect those affiliations, right? OK, now those changes will be present upon beginning the transformation into AB - nothing indicates that the dragon / avignon process will ersase those changes. That's how they wind up different.
I know it's a little out on the ledge, but it's an intriguing concept. And hey, they won't be more powerful than 'normal' AB's, just differnt.
I totally agree with you there Jaanos.
What I totally disagree with is that the shadow-related powers of a shadow wizard would increase and diversify upon a defiler shadow wizard becoming a dragon.
Those powers are linked in to the Shadow Wizard PrC, and once maxed out on shadow wizard levels, a creature no longer gain shadow-related abilities. An AB that would still increase in shadow-related abilities would have to be advancing in his Epic Shadow Wizard PrC, and ignore his dragon PrC for a while.
One path is becoming a shadow/grey dragon, the other is becoming a creature of the black or grey. One invovles becoming one with alternative the energy source, the other retaining the duality of thier nature. If you follow this, then maybe the potential for 'different' AB's needs to be addressed in the following three ways:
1. totally seperate progressions for shadow dragons and grey dragons (for example) balancing powers dervied from thier dual transformations, so they wind up on (i hate this word) balance the same in power as a similar level non-shadow dragon, but with different abilities.
2. A simple line in the dragon progressions (using dragons as the example again) which states:
"Characters with levels in either shadow mage or nercomancer may also choose feats from the following list in addition to the aforementioned epic and dragon feats. Although they donot get any additional feats, they have a greater selection due to the duality of thier power systems"
3. New AB's for shadow mages and necomancers, and the choice for PC's, much like 2e clerics, to progress down one of the paths, but not both....
I totally agree with you there Jaanos.
What I totally disagree with is that the shadow-related powers of a shadow wizard would increase and diversify upon a defiler shadow wizard becoming a dragon.
#1 doesn't work.
But point #2 is very good though. It might even go a bit further, although I have no idea how.
After all, a wizard that has become a dragon can later on decide to become a necromant or shadow wizard, and as such should see some of its feats selection tweaked.
Point #3, making whole new ABs, is the best option IMO, with Black and Gray equivalents of dragon/avangion magic.
Agree that #1 wouldn't be ideal, too confusing, to complex. Agree that #2 is best starting point, and whole heartedly agree that #3 is a great option to explore.
See, that's what i love about this board. Several posts ago we were disagreeing on whole bunch of stuff, now we're mainly agreeing on at least two possible ways forward (#2,#3).
Ah, discussion, banter and the creative process... what better way to spend christmas eve! (considering my family are all either in easter europe of australia and i'm in singapore
)I still consider that a shadow wizard's power is linked to his PrC progression, and that such a wizard turning into a dragon, for example, would not see his shadow abilities or his shadow magic increase because being a dragon increases defiler magic, not shadow magic, and further shadow abilities are tied to the epic shadow wizard PrC, not the dragon PrC.
#1 doesn't work.
But point #2 is very good though. It might even go a bit further, although I have no idea how.
After all, a wizard that has become a dragon can later on decide to become a necromant or shadow wizard, and as such should see some of its feats selection tweaked.
Point #3, making whole new ABs, is the best option IMO, with Black and Gray equivalents of dragon/avangion magic.
:D Happy Xmas Jaanos!
If Sadira were to become an AB that taps the sun, she would not become a dragon, or a "sun-dragon". She would become a whole new AB type, with totally different powers and a look all her own.
I don't think that's entirely accurate, after all, Hamannu, while he didn't always use it (perhaps fearing it would too much further his metamorphosis) he could also use the sun's magic. And shadow too as well. Yet he was a dragon, and he was completely black. I think he was indeed different from the others.. does anyone here remember some type of coloration description about Borys or any of the others?? They weren't black were they?
I still consider that a shadow wizard's power is linked to his PrC progression, and that such a wizard turning into a dragon, for example, would not see his shadow abilities or his shadow magic increase because being a dragon increases defiler magic, not shadow magic, and further shadow abilities are tied to the epic shadow wizard PrC, not the dragon PrC.
You're seeing things a little off in my view, remember, in 2e, being a shadow mage was a kit, and a kit stuck with you as long as you wanted from creation, till abandonment. However, keep in mind, that means that a shadow mage, gains those abilities, through 20 levels of advancement. It may not gain any serious abilities after a certain point, but it's shadow does progress.
Also, that being the case, it's not right to think of a dragon in 3e, with a shadow mage PrC prereq as being restricted to advancing as a dragon, or advancing as an epic level Shadow mage PrC.
My view, is to allow all previous powers to flow over if a dragon form is taken, and as I think as someone else stated, allow additional feats to be available.. like those for Epic level Shadow mage PrC characters.. perhaps there are Epic level Shadow mage inherant abilities that the Dragon Character would not have, I remember reading one book that stated a Dragon got a certain number of Sciences and Devotions a level in 2e, which was less than a Psionicist of their level.. but an Avangion did not seem to be restricted to such (and seeing as a dragon goes insane and an avangion increases in wisdom, that's understandable). So it is possible, keepin with 2e inspiration, that some effects would carry over, and other feats be available, but not Epic Level Shadow mage abilities.. keep in mind also, that there are likely Epic level Dragon Feats, and if so, then this character is sacrificing one of those.. for an Epic Level Shadow mage feat.
I've even toyed around with elemental-based dragons, and defiler avangions.
Do you have any info on this Terminus?? I'd be very intrigued with what you may have come up with for an Elemental Dragon... My brother and I (back when 2e was all we had) thought up a Defiler/Psionicist/Sun Cleric.. we never got around to playing him entirely, but the theory was that his tie to the para-element of the sun might gain him the ability (or right), as a dragon, to take energy from the sun to power his spells.. Keep in mind, the elements and para-elements grant powers to enable a follower to increase that element / para-element's influence on Athas.. Well.. those dang dragons have been laying waste to everything on the planet, but the Sun's influence has grown stronger and stronger... So, therefore.. being a defiler might not tick off the planar powers. And being a dragon might increase their happiness with him.. they'd have a servant who had the ability to really put some havoc on the planet.. (Imagine having him gate in raw sun energy, absorb it for a spell, and then quicken that through the dark lens... I'd say the sea of silt could be replaced with a sea of Sunlight and energy if properly done... or replace that Cerulean Storm with Sun Energy.. ouchy to the neighbors.. but if it makes the planar powers happy...)
I don't think that's entirely accurate, after all, Hamannu, while he didn't always use it (perhaps fearing it would too much further his metamorphosis) he could also use the sun's magic. And shadow too as well. Yet he was a dragon, and he was completely black. I think he was indeed different from the others.. does anyone here remember some type of coloration description about Borys or any of the others?? They weren't black were they?
1. Hamanu does not appear to be a shadow wizard, nor does his body is described as having shadowstuff in it. The only time he manipulates stuff related to the Black is when he steal Sadira's power from under her. Read Abbey's Notes on the writing of her novel to see why he can do that.
2. Rajaat tells Hamanu he's the only Champion with an extraordinary connection to the sun: he can draw a power from it that allows him to do magic beyond those of the other Champions in its potency, and that he's been gifted with that power so he would kill all the other Champions. When he reveals this to Borys - and tries it on him - the terrified Borys arranges a meeting of the Champions who vote to take out Rajaat now that they have confirmation he intended all along to kill the humans and Champions. Borys does not tell the convene Champions about Hamanu's special ability and purpose, and Hamanu does come forward with the information.
3. Hamanu is described on page 30 of RaFoaDK: the black color is just that, color.
4. Borys is described as steel-colored in the PP novels.
You're seeing things a little off in my view, remember, in 2e, being a shadow mage was a kit, and a kit stuck with you as long as you wanted from creation, till abandonment. However, keep in mind, that means that a shadow mage, gains those abilities, through 20 levels of advancement. It may not gain any serious abilities after a certain point, but it's shadow does progress.
What you are describing is all found in 2E DS. An unspoken agreement on these boards is that the default talk is about 3E rules (people post on 2E stuff by mentionning it, or give clues so we can have an idea where they're coming from).
Jon already has a 3E shadow wizard PrC, a 10 level class. It has a shadow taint that spreads over the body at a rate of 5% per shadow wizard level. The only thing that advances the taint is taking on more shadow wizard levels. Beyonf those 10, one needs to take on levels in an epic shadow wizard PrC.
Also, that being the case, it's not right to think of a dragon in 3e, with a shadow mage PrC prereq as being restricted to advancing as a dragon, or advancing as an epic level Shadow mage PrC.
Also, you seem to say that a dragon character who also happen to be a shadow wizard would see his dragon PrC give him enhanced shadow abilities. That's not the case: the perview of the dragon PrC is the enhancement of the defiler's body into a specific physical form known as a dragon and the enhancement of his defiler magic into a powerful form known as dragon magic.
None of that has any relevance to shadow wizards and their craft.
Furthermore, advancement of shadow abilities is the perview of the epic shadow wizard PrC, and enhancement of shadow magic into a powerful form mirroring that of dragon magic would be the perview of a shadow wizard AB PrC. Such a character could not be both a dragon and a shadow wizard AB: only one metamorphosis at a time is possible, although I would rule that only one is possible at all. If a full dragon were to change into a shadow wizard AB, it would gradually lose his dragon powers because his dragon form would be subsumed into the newer shadow wizard AB form.
Just like Oronis does not have both avangion and dragon powers. He has one or the other.
On another note, one could modify the Dragon Metamorphosis and Preserver Metamorphosis spells to include enhanced attributes based on prestige class abilities form the Shadow Wizard, Necromant and Cerulean, depending on one's opinion of exactly how the Metamorphosis spells function. If you believe they are epic spells whose results are defined by the seeds of the epic spell, and the rituals involved, then you could modify the epic Metamorphosis spells to accomodate your wishes, appropriately lessening some other abilities gained to compensate for these Shadow or Grey abilities, to keep the results balanced with the originals. However, if you believe that the Metamorphosis spells are just catalysts for a self-dictating transformation based on how one powers their spells, and that changing the Epic spells to cause this to occur will just cause the spells fail, then one cannot modify the spell, and could not have variant dragons, but would have to explain what outside force prevents the modified spell from working.
Also, it is documented, I believe, that paraelementals and their clerics, with the exception of Rain, look rather kindly on Defilers, as they destroy forces that hinder their expansion. so, if one were to use my ideas for dragons and avangions modified to include cleric levels and appropriate modifications to their forms, Defilers would have to be Paraelemental clerics , as the Elementals would never empower them. I'll try to dig up my experimental writeups for 2e for the Defiler/P.Cleric/Psionicist Dragons and Avangions as well as my 2e writeups for Preserver/E.Cleric/Psionicist Dragons. I'll look for my Defiler Avangion and Preserver Dragon, too. When the new advanced beings are released in 3.5, i'll modify them and post my results. My old 2e mods were prety cool, though. I based the Preserver/E.Cleric/Psion dragons loosely on the Magic :TG dragons, as in Croisis the Purger, Darighaaz the Igniter, etc.
Kalak uses 10th level psionic enchantments to advance in his PrC of Dragon Metamorphosis.. as would any Human or half elf Player. It grants all the effects in the Dragon Kings description.. Your basic Dragon..
The Champions have an Added Template to that metamorphosis. It grants them several abilities.. one of which is the ability to have templars.. Another you might consider, would be an automatic advancement from one stage of the metamorphosis to another, provided enough life energy is consumed. No need to cast the spell.. hence their ability to simply absorb so much energy to further the metamorphos. Along with that could come certain unusual immunities.
Then you have hamanu... Now in his case, I'd say he is very very rare.. him I would say, he is the only "True Dragon" Him I would say Rajaat changed his race. He is a true defiler.. magic from multiple sources.. and he has that eyes of fire effect.. which allows him to destroy and absorb anyone elses sources for life magic energy (people turned to ash) and then use sun magic to harm the other dragons.. Borys admitted he might have been drained by hamannu himself!
Here's a normal situation then.. Kalak.. uses the Dragon Metamorphosis..
Lets stick a hand in a glove with some claws drawn on it, and call it a real claw...
Here's the champions..
Lets stick a human hand in a glove with actual claws tied to it.. and call that a dragon..
Hamannu..
Lets use a real Claw with mustle, scale, bone, and strength, and call that a real Dragon..
Any thoughts???
I also wondered, would a fire elemental preist AB need a source of material to burn? or is he self sustaining?? Kinda stinks to be someone who might die do to a lack of wood :P
Elementals can produce their element as an ability, and priests can gate it in.Also, fire elementals require no fuel source to sustain themselves, else they would be at a distinct disadvantage compared to all the other elementals.
That is true.. would you therefore say that Water Elementals wouldn't have any problems with the harsh hot Athasian Climate?? Are they so infused that they can ignore those things??
I believe that Rajaat selected and carefully crafted his SKs in a special way. He chose preservers to train secretly in defiling magic. He only chose those preservers who were strong in the Way.
This equates to an epic prestige kit for a 10/10 preserver/ psion. This 10 lvl progression (that I haven't worked up yet) would increase magic and psi power. I'm knocking around calling it "Champion of Rajaat".
I'm going to use an epic dragon kit that requires 33 skill points in a few skills so that anyone who actually progressed far enough to get in could but they would lose out on all the special abilities granted by the Champion of Rajaat kit.
The Champion kit would as its 10th lvl special allow the bestowal of spells to templars. The beginning levels would grant defiling bonuses, improved spell capacity, and tons of bonus Psi points.
You'll probably save yourself a ton of time by looking at what others have done before you and condense the idea's you like, throw out the one's you don't.
I'm huge DS fan. I've just started a new DS campaign based out of Raam pre-age of heroes and I've been knocking some ideas around for SK builds.
I believe that Rajaat selected and carefully crafted his SKs in a special way. He chose preservers to train secretly in defiling magic. He only chose those preservers who were strong in the Way.
This equates to an epic prestige kit for a 10/10 preserver/ psion. This 10 lvl progression (that I haven't worked up yet) would increase magic and psi power. I'm knocking around calling it "Champion of Rajaat".
I'm going to use an epic dragon kit that requires 33 skill points in a few skills so that anyone who actually progressed far enough to get in could but they would lose out on all the special abilities granted by the Champion of Rajaat kit.
The Champion kit would as its 10th lvl special allow the bestowal of spells to templars. The beginning levels would grant defiling bonuses, improved spell capacity, and tons of bonus Psi points.
The first stat that jumps out is HP. A fully developed avangion gains 58d4 hp + 58 applications of their constitution bonus. That’s a LOT of HP, it makes it clear that the avangion, while butterfly like in appearance, is meant to be extremely durable. Using the framework that outlined in this thread, template + prestige class, I would recommend a high HD, perhaps d12 for the prestige class, and a constitution increase as part of each new template.
Additionally, the 2e avangion gained a bonus of 16 to its armor class, so I would spread a similar increase to natural armor across the different templates. While this seems at first like a great deal (compared to the BAB increase over the same number of levels), the loss of easily worn magical items to increase AC, makes this perhaps even too small of an increase.
In 2e a fully developed avangion had a magic resistance of 80%. Translating this to a 3e SR is somewhat complicated, as comparing 2e and 3e versions of monsters in cannon materials for other settings does not yield a simple ratio of conversion. The approach I took is to look at the intent behind the 80%. An avangion is meant to be nigh impervious to magical attack. With spells such as Lower Spell Resistance (from Draconomicon, -15 to SR) and Assay Resistance (from Complete Arcane, +10 to overcome SR) a SR of less than 50 is practically meaningless as any legitimate threat (CR-wise) is going to have a caster level in the 30’s and will be able to penetrate any lower spell resistance with ease due to feats (spell penetration etc.), spells (as above), or items (ioun stones etc.). Therefore, I would start with a SR of ~35 at the first template and climb upwards to 50 or 60 by the end of the metamorphosis.
Along the lines of an avangion’s MR, they were immune to attack by a weapon of less than +5 enchantment. From looking at other 2e to 3e conversions, I think a DR of 30/+5 would be appropriate, and would even go as far as to say that any damage done by a weapon less than +5 is only subdual damage
Any being beginning this process is going to be epic, and unless Athas.org is going to go a different direction with BAB and saves for epic characters, advanced beings would gain the standard BAB and save increase as described in the ELH.
So, what I have come up with is a foundation for three semi – generic templates, each achieved through an epic spell, representing the beginning, middle, and final phase of the avangion metamorphosis process. There are obviously many things missing from these, but it’s perhaps a useful starting point. The physical changes of the former 10 step process can be grouped into three sets of changes, perhaps changing gradually over time as the avangion nears the next step in the process.
Beginning stage:
+2 Constitution
+5 AC (N.A.)
35 SR
10/+1 DR with any non-magical damage being subdual
Intermediate stage: (replaces beginning template)
+4 Constitution
+2 Wisdom
+10 AC (N.A.)
40 SR
20/+3 DR with any non-magical damage being subdual
Final stage: (replaces intermediate template)
+6 Constitution
+5 Wisdom
+15 AC (N.A.)
50 SR
30/+5 DR with any non magical damage being subdual
For the prestige class, I don’t know that it needs to be anything more than the cebremancer offers, just a +1 to each of caster and manifester levels with wizard / psion skill points. If we start adding bonus features to the class, then it either has a natural completion point when there are no more bonuses to give, or it is completely overpowered as the number of abilities and feats escalates. I would personally prefer to add special abilities to the templates, and have them have variable effects based on advanced being levels.
So, onto the subject of what special abilities an avangion should have. Obviously the first set is going to be psionic enchantments, however they wind up being defined.
Sticking with the 2e flavor of advanced beings, there needs to be some kind of tie in with epic spellcasting, even if non AB’s are allowed to become epic spellcasters. The epic spellcasting system comes down to one simple concept, a spell’s DC. Advanced beings need some method of managing higher DC’s than non-AB epic spellcasters of similar caster level. There are two ways to accomplish this that I can see. One is to allow some summation of spellcraft and psicraft for determining the DC a spellcaster can reach. I personally dislike this method because of the double counting of int modifier, and it just doesn’t have the “feel” of a combination of psionics and magic. The method I prefer is to add a mitigating factor, available only to advanced beings, that allows the expenditure of PSP’s to reduce the DC of epic spells. I’m not sure what is the most appropriate rate of conversion, but a bonus of 20 or so to the DC of epic spells of AB’s versus non AB’s seems like a reasonable power edge. To achieve this a 2 PSP per point of DC reduction to a max expenditure equal to the manifester level (assuming a manifester level of 30 to 40) works well.
In addition to epic spellcasting, I think that the combination of magic and psionics has a natural fit with metamagic. I assume most are familiar with the Mind Mage prestige class from Dragon Magazine #313. As a prestige class open to any 6th level spellcaster 4th level psionic character, this class seems pretty broken. However, several (if not all) of the abilities of this class jump out as being “advanced being-like” in nature. Especially the ability to contribute PSP’s in place of higher leveled spell slots for the purpose of metamagic feats at a rate of 3 psp per spell level increase.
One thing I don’t think fits is the reverse application of this principle. In 2e, psionic enchantments represented the next stage of magical power. By achieving the self discipline and control as a master of the Way, it was possible to achieve unmatched magical feats. However, it never seemed to me that being arcane spellcasters of the highest order made them more proficient in the use of the Way. Psionic enchantments were psionically assisted magics, they were not magically assisted psionics.
A third area of psionic enchantment that I think is appropriate (for avangions only) is the substituion of PSP’s for life energy to power spellcasting. At the early stages of the process I think this is most appropriate as an actual expenditure of PSP’s. However, at the final stage of the process, I would think that as long as the AB maintains a power point pool of some number (20 psp?) this occurs automatically. Depending on how epic spells are treated for purposes of defiling and terrain, this could serve as a way to offset that penalty as well.
As well as psionic enchantments, augmenting magic with psionics, there are several abilities from the Incantatrix prestige class in the Forgotten Realms setting that seemed to me to be appropriate for an advanced being, specifically an avangion. Sieze concentration, snatch spell, and cooperative metamagic in particular feel like things that an avangion should be capable of.
Additionally, the permanent effects from 2e should probably translate easily, tongues, know alignment, esp, and detect lies, as well as the lack of aging.
And finally the avangion Aura. I think this needs to be an awe-inspiring component of an avangion’s being. In addition to the effects from dragon kings, I would add some kind of morale bonus to all allies inside its borders, I’m not as confident on what the crunch of this should be, but perhaps this is where the cooperative metamagic ability gets manifested as well.
As you can all see, there are definitely some big gaping holes that need to be filled, requirements for starters, the actual epic spells required to acquire each template need to be designed as well and I don't have much of an idea on where to start with that, and then I need to figure out which abilities belong to which template and how they scale.
I liked the idea of a divine rank of 0 (or greater), but that seems to be a minority view. Mechanically, it kind of fits, the lack of aging,the SR (if DR >0), the aura, but not exactly with the issues of worshipers, lack of spell granting.
Yes, this is something that is being worked on by the Epic Bureau. The Official rules for Dragons should be just around the corner.
YESSSSS!!! Please carry on Epic Bureau! It would be soooo nice to finally see something official Epic from you guys! I have been waiting for that since 3e came out ... and that was years ago ... so please carry on so that we finally get that long overdue and eagerly awaited info!
in the dragon kings supplement it states that at the first stage of transformation the dragon was immortal, immune to death by old age and poison, no longer needed to breath exc.
also so what the champions coulden figure out how to kill eachother for the first 1000 years. if they have a decent DR spell resitance, and fast healing rate and no one in the world knew what was required to penetrate there DR they would seem immortal.
Give dragons DR 20/epic, fast healing 10, and regeneration against all but obsidian weapons and you will see a nearly immortal being against someone who isent armed with an +6 obsidian weapon and a huge strenght bonus.
remember dark sun is at its heart a mid level campagin world. there are only a handful of epic level people around and knowlledge is very rare.
also so what the champions coulden figure out how to kill eachother for the first 1000 years. if they have a decent DR spell resitance, and fast healing rate and no one in the world knew what was required to penetrate there DR they would seem immortal.
Albeit you know that, I'll reiterate it here: in 3E DR is no longer the +1 to +5 to hit of the 2E, meaning you're no longer immune to all physical damage unless hit by a sword with a certain enhancement bonus. Instead, it ignores a specified amount of damage upon each hit. A champion, who is a dragon, has around 40+ levels, many wish spells cast to augment his ability scores, a ton of feats, and magic items to boot, would have no problem dealing more than 20 or 30 points of damage per hit, overflowing over the DR with each it.
Thus the part in RaFoaDK that mentions that the champions did not know how to kill each other the first thousand years does not refer to attacks beign absorbed by DR, but to something else, never clearly explained in the novel, some kind of broad immunity.
I wish something like that were to be implemented into the Champion of Rajaat template, but last I saw Xlorep's unofficial design, it wasn't in there.
remember dark sun is at its heart a mid level campagin world. there are only a handful of epic level people around and knowlledge is very rare.
I don't know that I would agree that this is entirely true. I do agree that there are only a handful of epic level people around, at least compared to the forgotten realms, but I would say that the potential in dark sun is to be more epic than in other campaigns. The ones that are around are considerably MORE epic than those in other settings.
It should be more difficult to get to epic, but instead of reaching a plateau in the early 20's as you do in other campaigns without a creative DM, once you hit the 20 range in DS, there is a whole new range of plots available. In the forgotten realms, you can coast from 20 to 30 and it's possible nobody would ever notice. That isn't likely to happen in DS.
ATHASIAN DRAGON PRESTIGE CLASS
Requirements: Must be a Defiler, Alignment: Any non-good, manifest 5th level psionics, be able to cast 9th level arcane spells, Spellcraft 20+, Psicraft 15+, Concentration 20+
LVL Hit Dice Ability Increase AC Special Abilities ECL
1 +1d12 +1 Str +4 Psionic Enchantment 1/day +2
Tongues at will
2 +3d12 +2 Str, +1 Con +8 +3
3 +5d12 +4 Str, +2 Con +12 +5
4 +8d12 +7 Str, +3 Con +16 Psionic Enchantment 2/day +7
DR5/epic; Dragon Rage
5 +11d12 +10 Str, +5 Con +20 SR15, +9
6 +14d12 +13 Str, +7 Con +24 DR10/epic; SR18 +11
7 +17d12 +16 Str, +9 Con +28 Psionic Enchantment 3/day +13
Breath Weapon 12d10(26)
SR21, Fear DR20
8 +20d12 +19 Str, +11 Con +32 DR15/Epic, SR24, Fear 25 +15
Breath Weapon 16d10(31)
9 +23d12 +22 Str, +13 Con +36 SR27, Fear 30, End Dragon Rg. +18
Breath Weapon 20d10(36)
10 +26d12 +25 Str, +16 Con +40 DR20/epic, SR32, Fear 35 +21
Breath Weapon 24d10(40)
Psionic Enchantment 4/day
When an odd-numbered Dragon level is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. When an even-numbered Dragon level is gained she gains a manfester level in a class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum manifester level known by that class. Her manifester level in that class also increases by +1.
Upon reaching 1st level dragon the character gains the Dragon subtype and all benefits (except skills).
Attacks: as per MM1 under True Dragons
Size: Lvl 1(m), Lvl 2-3(L), Lvl 4-6(H), LVL 7-9(G), LVL 10 (C)
BAB/SAVES/Bonus Feats/: as per ELH
Additional skill points per level: 2+ Int modifier
Dragon Rage; upon reaching 4th level as a dragon the destructive rage and agony of dragon metamorphosis infuses the character must make a concentration check Diff(45) to remain lucid if the save fails the dragon will begin a destructive rampage affecting everything within his vicinity. The dragon rage end upon reaching 9th level.
Psionic Enchantments(aka epic spellcasting) : Note on Athas psionic enchantments/epic spellcasting is available to Advanced beings only. Ignore ELH when it comes into conflict.
Everything else including description and class advancement as per the Dragon-Kings handbook
1. Hamanu does not appear to be a shadow wizard, nor does his body is described as having shadowstuff in it. The only time he manipulates stuff related to the Black is when he steal Sadira's power from under her. Read Abbey's Notes on the writing of her novel to see why he can do that.
2. Rajaat tells Hamanu he's the only Champion with an extraordinary connection to the sun: he can draw a power from it that allows him to do magic beyond those of the other Champions in its potency, and that he's been gifted with that power so he would kill all the other Champions. When he reveals this to Borys - and tries it on him - the terrified Borys arranges a meeting of the Champions who vote to take out Rajaat now that they have confirmation he intended all along to kill the humans and Champions. Borys does not tell the convene Champions about Hamanu's special ability and purpose, and Hamanu does come forward with the information.
3. Hamanu is described on page 30 of RaFoaDK: the black color is just that, color.
4. Borys is described as steel-colored in the PP novels.
Sadira becomes black because of her sun wizardry, coincidence? And I'm not saying he is a shadow wizard, I'm saying he's not restricted to one or two sources of power.. I say he can draw from multiple sources, he mentioned a few, plants for most casters, animals for dragons, hoarded energy in the dead for SK's, sun magic for sadira, and he claimed for himself having both light and shadow as his to command.. to me saying he could pull from all those above named sources.. works for me in my campaign..
Also, nobody knows just how many character Elementals and Advanced Being Druids may be around....
And don't forget the Order. The masters of this secret society are all Epic level manifesters, and there are many of them.
And don't forget the Order. The masters of this secret society are all Epic level manifesters, and there are many of them.
Not only the masters.
ALL the members of the Order are recruited from those manifesters that can manifest at 21st level and up.
Don't you?
Not only the masters.
ALL the members of the Order are recruited from those manifesters that can manifest at 21st level and up.
Indeed. My remark about the Epic level masters was due to a playable character presented in Forest Maker: Badaris Almoralis (or something). He's just a 10th level psionicist, but his flavor text states he's already a member of the Order. This deviates from Dragon Kings, which states that only psionicists above 21st are recruited. Inconsistencies such as this one are so common in DS that I've developed the habit of rationalizing things in order to reconcile discrepancies. (I guess we all have that habit.) My take on this particular one is that a few "infant" psionicists (below 21st level) of great promise are sometimes groomed by the Order before actually becoming full members of the society.
Anyway, and I've just checked the book, the lower echelons of the Order are composed of Entrants (21st through 23rd levels; about 30 of them at any one time) and Mediators (24th-26th; about 10 of them at any one time)). The Upper echelons (of 27th and higher) are composed of Cerebral Masters (one for each discipline) and Psiologists (six for each Cerebral Master).
That's a total of 82 Epic level members. Between the Order, the SKs, Elementals and any other Epic level characters from other classes, there are more than 100 Epic people in known Athas. Given the small size of the Athasian population (the 7 city-states, together, do not exceed 250,000 people), the proportion of Epic characters is actually enormous.
My remark about the Epic level masters was due to a playable character presented in Forest Maker: Badaris Almoralis (or something). He's just a 10th level psionicist, but his flavor text states he's already a member of the Order.
Too much time since I last read that module...
Maybe someone decieved him into believing he has joined the Order and is using him...
I think you're right about psions being groomed for the Order.
Also, the Brown Elf kit from Elves of Athas applies to elves who will eventually apply (of their own will) for Order membership.
Actually, so called discrepencies like that really are more logical than saying 'the order only accepts people of X or Y level'.
I understand it more as "the Order forces anyone above Xth level to join".
I believe most Order members who happen to be Telepaths or Seers could read a manifester's mind or clair-sense something to learn his level.
I agree that it's an artificial method to determine who gets forced or not into joining, but Prestige Classes work the same way...
(The prerequisite isn't Fighter 4, it's Weapon Specialization.)
Once they reach the tenth level they have gained 41 additional HD.
The SotL gets 32 HD during it's transformation.
So a fullgrown dragon will always have more HD then a SotL ;).
BTW some 2nd Ed houserules from me.....
Avangions get 58 HD? No way, the Dragons are the most powerful of the AB, in each and every way, psi, combat and magics, so they get the +58 HD, while the Avangions get +41 HD. This is the only way the whole AB matter makes sense, Rajaat would have transformed his champions into the most powerfull AB, and since Avangions are Preservers they want to keep the balance and loose a lot of power in the process. But they are more careful, "smart" and work more with people they trust.
Anyway, the SotL gets it's +32 HD, because it is on it's homeplane, Athas, the Elemental ABs get +20 HD on Athas, but on their homeplane they get the whole 32 HD.
......just rambling
The Order, I love the Order, I wish there would be a whole Book about them, with informations of almost all the Members. However, leave some unknown VIPs of the Order for the DMs out there to create ;).
They are by far the most likely "Villains" the PC might face. On a planet with such an psionic potential it's easier to find epic Psionicists then ABs.
Avangions get 58 HD? No way, the Dragons are the most powerful of the AB, in each and every way, psi, combat and magics, so they get the +58 HD, while the Avangions get +41 HD. This is the only way the whole AB matter makes sense, Rajaat would have transformed his champions into the most powerfull AB, and since Avangions are Preservers they want to keep the balance and loose a lot of power in the process. But they are more careful, "smart" and work more with people they trust.
I don't know that I agree with the statement that Dragons > Avangions in every way, especially not with the logic you use. To start with, Rajaat would have had no choice what type of advanced being his champions became, defilers become dragons, avangions become preservers, he had trained defilers. Secondly, if he could have chosen a form, it would most likely have been the most combat oriented one, which would definitely be the dragon. Having said that, strength in combat doesn't neccessarily correlate with more powerful in every other way, especially magic or psionic strength. The power difference between any of the advanced beings is purely academic against the average member of one of the races targeted for extinction, so it isn't as if he needed the most powerful form to do the job, just the most efficient.
I also wouldn't call avangions smarter or less trusting than dragons. Those are personality traits, not anything you could attribute to a type of advanced being. I would actually say a developing dragon in modern athas would have to be at least as careful about who they trusted as an avangion in order to avoid the eye of the sorcerer kings, especially since they leave more "evidence" of their power and actions than a preserver, additionally, it's not like they would even have the assistance of an organization like the veiled alliance to help them, they would have nobody.
Ok, Avangions.. are immune to "all" the physical advantages a dragon has over them.. requiring a +5 or better weapon to harm them.. 1st through 4th level spells don't affect them, nor their friends in that aura of theirs, they gain the same magic resistance but staggered so they gain it little by little starting earlier.. they gain wisdom bonuses, giving them an advantage in psionic combat over a dragon, they have an AC that's "almost" as good (-6 vs -10.. pretty close) And oh yeah, they don't need obsidian spheres to cast 10th level magics...
On the playing field, my guess, is that an Avangion is going to attack a Dragon's mind, especially since the dragon will try to defile the land and keep the preserver from gaining that energy for himself, however since almost half his spells have zero chance of harming the avangion, and the other half have only a 20 percent chance of making it... he's at a severe disadvantage.. while the avangion doesn't even think of harming the dragon physically.. he goes for psionic means.. and "maybe" afterwords uses magic.. of course.. being that an avangion can also pull magic from living creatures, only, without harming them.. he can pull energy from himself, or the dragon even, to fuel his powers... I think they have pretty equal footing... and being that an avangion can undo the damage of a dragon to the land, casting restorative "preserver" magics... I don't think a one on one battle is too much to handle.. (of course.. try getting a SK to go one on one ;) )
AS for the Elemental AB's, handle them however you wish.. I like the idea that they don't have to worry about fuel sorcers or weather conditions to survive on athas, and I like that they have lots of extra HD over their counterparts, after all, they are unique in a way :P give them penalties if you wish away from their home plane, but watch out if they use Planar Transposition ;) (an old 2e power that lets you swap a portion of one plane, with a portion of another.. anyone here wish to have this castle transformed into living flame from the elemental plane of fire??
)Done deal
I am aware that the epic bueau is diligently working to bring us the long awaited metemorphisis and transformation rules, but I had (what I consider) a good idea I wanted to share with everyone.
My idea is a solution to the following problem. Suppose, if you will, that we had converted the old Dragon into a 10 level epic prestige class that resulted in (1) 30 arcane casting ability, (2) 30 level manifesting ability, and (3) physical attributes of a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. If I remember correctly, this was the setup in DS3. The problem is clearly (3), and the insane overpowering it gives such a caster.
The solution is this. Recall the massive amounts of wealth that a dragon must sacrifice to further his metamorphosis. In balancing the class, one could take this into account. Sort of split the class into two subsets of abilities. One subset, balance like a typical epic prestige class. The second set (likely all the dragon abilities) compare with various magical items that achieve similar effects, and balance these with the wealth component of the metamorphisis. Thus, a fully advanced dragon will posess significantly less magic gear than any other character of equal level, having trade that gear for innate power of roughly the same magnitude.
In short, we maintain the beloved flavor of this awesome class, and the rigorous game balance so vital in DS3.5. Won't we all be ****** if either the dragons spell-casting/manifesting abilities are nerfed? Won't be be just as ****** if he is any less than physically equal to the greates of Red Dragons? This is the only way I can see to fix this problem.
Disclaimer: I know that around 30th level, the great wyrm red is less than impressive in battle. Also, if the metamorhisis is complete at around 30th level, there will likely not be room for 30 caster levels and manifester levels.
Nice and simple IMO.
By giving it 30 levels, you could use the stats of the most powerful dragons (prismatic, force, etc...).
But if trying to keep the ECL balanced is not among your highest priorities, definetely use the age progression style. It'll be kinda hard to come up with appropriate encounters after that, though.
You gave me an idea..... Spread out the changes among 20 levels (I'd go 30), just by staggering them (every other level, then every level, or such), and add +1 manifester and caster level at each level. Then, it'll be just about balanced.
By giving it 30 levels, you could use the stats of the most powerful dragons (prismatic, force, etc...).
But if trying to keep the ECL balanced is not among your highest priorities, definetely use the age progression style. It'll be kinda hard to come up with appropriate encounters after that, though.
The way I look at it is that they would be just like normal dragons just with high levels in psion and wizard.
Lyric, Avangions generate their own spell energy. They don't draw from plants or animals. I'm not sure where I read this, but is official, and I'll have the specific reference later.
I was referring at that point to what it said in Dragon Kings about them, but it may have been decided that 3e Avangions generate their own energy, if so, I won't argue, it's a good idea.
One thought I have though, should an Avangion be made immune to the draining effects of defiler spells?? maybe even to the damaging effect of Dragon Magic as well? (meaning the sucking the life energy from animals and people to power spells).
I seem to remember there being a writeup on Avangions online a little while back, detailing some suggested powers for Avangions.. other than simply magnifying thier spells, and making them like trees of life, do avangions have a special, "Avangion" magic also? Something in comparison to what Dragons have??
And what exactly is being done with Psionic Enchantments in these cases?? not just with dragons and avangions, but with all advanced beings??? are those old 10th level spells being tossed out the window? is the preparation time being kept? Any thoughts??
To say the truth I am a bit disappointed with Athas.org, not only have the dragon/avangion PrCs or templates been ‘soon to be posted’ for years, but at times it also seems that they are going to be horrendous overpowered, placing most sorcerer kings at CR40 or more, and Borys at CR60 or more.
It has been a couple years since I last played a Dark Sun campaign, but this is what I would do:
In my opinion the sorcerer kings are not that strong, for 2,000 years they hid behind armies of templars and warrior-slaves fearful from each other, the dragon and vengeful slaves, and spent most of their time indulging their sadistic and degenerate pleasures, only occasionally backstabbing each other. Only once a century one of them did something remotely interesting. And only Borys and Dregoth were really active, which probably helps to explain why they were the most powerful.
Most of the sorcerer kings shouldn’t be stronger than the main powerhouses of other worlds. Mordenkainen, Elminster, Symbul, etc, are CR and ECL 25-35 and so should the sorcerer kings. In 2e they were 20/20 wizard/psions with 1-10 dragon levels. That translates to 26 character levels in 3.5 before the dragon levels.
In my opinion Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10 is a good start. Levels of Mind Mage (a PrC I admit not being familiar with) would help them reach the epic casting/psicraft needed to transform into dragons (although it is also possible someone else transformed them, so it could be some of them don’t even know the needed epic stuff). Some of the sorcerer kings probably have a few levels in other classes or PrCs too (I suggest giving Hamanu psi-warrior or fighter levels, for instance, and maybe Nibenay Loremaster levels).
As for the ‘dragon class’, I would just apply for them the half-dragon template as an acquired template, progressing it to 10 level or so, and adding a couple size increments. Borys would get something like +24 str, +6 int, +6 cha and +6 con, huge size (dragons aren’t that big in Athas), +12 natural armor and 20d8 fire breath.
No DR and no SR in the template, but you can bet they would have those 24/7 thanks to long duration spells and psionics. Metabreath feats or some spells could be used to make that breath weapon far more formidable, of course, and the same for the natural attacks, flight speed, natural armor, etc, etc.
Don’t forget to max their stats with inherent bonus (they have had centuries to cast wishes) and add age bonus to mental stats. They probably will have all attributes in the 20-25 range as base. And probably are CR 25-35 at the end, with Borys and Dregoth being the toughest.
Also maybe a template to account for their immortality and the ability to give spells. But you can also assume they are due to Rajaat’s epic spells on them and cooperative epic spells they used to link with the Living Vortex (sp). I doubt the templates would raise the CR more than a point or two.
At the end, remember some of these guys were given a lot of trouble by a couple characters in the low twenties of level (Sadira and Rikus. Neeva and the others didn’t look even close to epic) and were very much afraid of them. They are pretty tough, but hardly invincible when facing other epic characters. They are /not/ gods, they don’t even come close to gods. If a group of PCs manages to reach epic levels in the very tough Dark Sun setting, they deserve the chance to tackle one of these monsters (or to take his or her place, if they are evil).
PCs:
Make it a bit easier. 9th level spells, but maybe 5th or so psionic powers. This allows for both Psychic warriors and psions to become super-beings. The requirements for casting the spells (quests, money, sacrifices) should remain unchanged.
NPCs:
Why not keep it the way it is? Require 9th level spells and powers.
My setup followed the second (my players like the lower levels, often creating new characters when they get close to 10-13), so dragons were only ever NPCs in my campaigns. For this reason, they are massively overpowered. Keep this in mind while reading below.
Prerequisites: Must be human; Int=18+, Wis=16+, Con=15+; Must be able to cast 9th level spells; Must be able to manifest 9th level powers; Spellcraft=25+; Psycraft=25+; Knowledge (Psionics)=25+; Knowledge (Magic)=25+. Provided they meet all those criteria, they can go ahead with the first metamorph spell.
Class Information
Class Level Effects
1 +15 Base Attack, +15 Fort, +10 Ref, +8 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 1, Bonus Feat.
2 +20 Base Attack, +18 Fort, +12 Ref, +12 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 2, Bonus Feat.
3 +25 Base Attack, +21 Fort, +14 Ref, +16 Will, +0 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 3.
4 +30 Base Attack, +24 Fort, +16 Ref, +20 Will, +4 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 4, Bonus Feat.
5 +35 Base Attack, +28 Fort, +18 Ref, +24 Will, +8 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 5, Rages begin (Will 60 to resist).
6 +40 Base Attack, +32 Fort, +20 Ref, +28 Will, +15 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 6, Bonus Feat.
7 +45 Base Attack, +36 Fort, +22 Ref, +32 Will, +24 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 7.
8 +50 Base Attack, +40 Fort, +24 Ref, +36 Will, +30 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 8, Bonus Feat.
9 +55 Base Attack, +44 Fort, +26 Ref, +40 Will, +40 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 9.
10 +60 Base Attack, +48 Fort, +28 Ref, +44 Will, +55 AC, +1 level Wiz/Psion, Dragon 10, Bonus Feat.
Dragon Level
1 +5 Str, +0 Dex, +5 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=10d4, Regen=1/rnd.
2 +10 Str, +0 Dex, +10 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=5d4, Regen=1/rnd.
3 +15 Str, +0 Dex, +15 Con, SR=0, Fear=0, Breath=0, HD=3d4, Regen=1/rnd.
4 +20 Str, +1 Dex, +20 Con, SR=0, Fear=12, Breath=0, HD=2d4, Regen=2/rnd.
5 +25 Str, +1 Dex, +25 Con, SR=5, Fear=14, Breath=0, HD=2d4, Regen=2/rnd.
6 +30 Str, +1 Dex, +30 Con, SR=10, Fear=16, Breath=0, HD=3d4, Regen=3/rnd.
7 +35 Str, +2 Dex, +35 Con, SR=15, Fear=20, Breath=10d12, HD=3d4, Regen=4/rnd.
8 +40 Str, +2 Dex, +40 Con, SR=20, Fear=25, Breath=15d12, HD=4d4, Regen=6/rnd.
9 +45 Str, +3 Dex, +45 Con, SR=25, Fear=30, Breath=20d12, HD=4d4, Regen=8/rnd.
10 +50 Str, +4 Dex, +50 Con, SR=30, Fear=40, Breath=25d12, HD=5d4, Regen=10/rnd.
Somewhere, I had the damage reduction, too, but can't remember it. As long as this is for an NPC, this should get you started. With a little bit of tweaking (maybe a lot), it could work for a PC, too.
I do agree to you to a point on the Sorcerer kings..... they have not done alot recently. However, by the cannon, most were masters of the way long before they were even taught the basics of magic. (and then later taught how to defile to become even stronger.) So you have relatively high level psions (and possibly psychic warriors) probably at least in their teens for levels even prior to learning magic. Lets work out the math real quick on the Champions. (and I am going to be using shortcuts through prestige classes, even though they would not have been likely given how the history shows it)
Lets give a low guess on the level to be a master of the way and make it level 12.
Starting Champion has 12 level psion. Have to add 3 levels wizard just to get the requirements for cerebramancer. So level 15 so far
Lets now go the minimum number of levels in cerebramancer to get up to 9th level spells.... mind you this is already into the epic levels as you would need 14 levels of cerebramancer to accomplish this.
So total so far you are looking at 29th level just for the beginnings of a character who started as a master of the way and became a master of magic.... and that is using the prestige class as a shortcut. (which is probably not likely in the cases of the champions, though possible. And again this is a low estimate)
Now that was their level at the Begining of the cleansing wars..... not including a template for champion of Rajaat, or anything else. Then you have several thousand years of fighting in the cleansing wars......
Then they transform into dragons...... you are talking some pretty hefty hitters here. That is why alot of people think the Sorcerer kings are alot higher level than just the mid to late 20's.
Now on creating new dragons..... the epic bureau has been working on ways that would allow the transformation alot sooner than this..... BUT it is not likely that it would have been sooner on the former Champions. (and we have been looking at several systems, one of which seperates the physcial transformations into a series of spells, ala the pentad series, and the magical mastery being controlled by a prestige class. Which the sorcerer kings would have levels in.)
Oh and on the hero's of Tyr..... I think you are underestimating them a bit. Agis was a master of the way. (again minimum of 12th level .... most likely much higher, I would estimate in the mid teens) Sadira could cast level 4 spells at the beginning of the books (and appeared to have a few levels in rogue.) and was the weakest character. Tythian was the highest rank templar and had several levels of psion. (so he was likely already in the epic range.) Rikus and Neeva were arena champions so would likely be in the mid to upper teens. Etc... Now while this is not that high..... they had 2 powerful artifacts. (one of which ignored armor entirely, the other allowed the casting of spells MUCH higher than the caster normally could.) And they attacked Kalak while he was in the middle of a spell..... which likely had an extremely high backlash. Add to the fact this part most likely levelled at least once in between the beginning and the end of the first novel.
And after the first novel they were advancing rapidly in levels and getting even more artifacts to assist them. By the 5th book all of the characters would have easily been in the epic levels, with artifacts to help them, by the time they really started hunting Borys. And even then "they" did not really take down Borys on their own.... it took breaking the sword off in Borys and letting the black ichor on him to kill him.
Just wanting to let you know some of the reasons so many think the SM are a bit higher than Elminster and crew. (Not to mention the fact that they can grant divine magic to their followers, through the vortices, which is something only Deities can do in other worlds.)
Oh and on the hero's of Tyr..... I think you are underestimating them a bit. Agis was a master of the way. (again minimum of 12th level .... most likely much higher, I would estimate in the mid teens) Sadira could cast level 4 spells at the beginning of the books (and appeared to have a few levels in rogue.) and was the weakest character. Tythian was the highest rank templar and had several levels of psion. (so he was likely already in the epic range.) Rikus and Neeva were arena champions so would likely be in the mid to upper teens. Etc... Now while this is not that high..... they had 2 powerful artifacts. (one of which ignored armor entirely, the other allowed the casting of spells MUCH higher than the caster normally could.) And they attacked Kalak while he was in the middle of a spell..... which likely had an extremely high backlash. Add to the fact this part most likely levelled at least once in between the beginning and the end of the first novel.
And after the first novel they were advancing rapidly in levels and getting even more artifacts to assist them. By the 5th book all of the characters would have easily been in the epic levels, with artifacts to help them, by the time they really started hunting Borys. And even then "they" did not really take down Borys on their own.... it took breaking the sword off in Borys and letting the black ichor on him to kill him.
Just wanting to let you know some of the reasons so many think the SM are a bit higher than Elminster and crew. (Not to mention the fact that they can grant divine magic to their followers, through the vortices, which is something only Deities can do in other worlds.)
I remember Agis was a level 17 psion after Kalak’s death, with Rikus close to him in level too. I am not sure, but I think Tythian was even higher level. Sadira was a 10th level wizard.
In 3.5 I would even add some aristocrat levels to both Agis and Tythian and make them level 19-20.
They weren’t wimps by any means, but they weren’t even close to Kalak’s in level. Kalak was a 5th level dragon on top of the 20/20 wizard/psion levels. In my version of a SK he would have been a 26th level character with 5 levels of a draconian template. Likely CR 29 or so. And most likely a 23 level caster/manifester, maybe even higher if he had the practiced spellcaster feat.
They got Kalak with his pants down, and they had a something that probably was an epic dragon dread (epic bane) spear. Still, they killed a creature 10 levels above their level, so… damn impressive, truly an epic feat. Yes still doable in game terms, I have seen PC parties killing single monsters 8-10 levels above their level by preparing the battle very carefully and having ready all the right buffs, spells and weapons.
If you have Kalak at CR 50 or more, which he would be with things like Dawnstealer’s build, it is completely impossible to kill him without resorting to literary licenses. Which are okay in books, but I find mighty annoying in RPGs.
Edited because I remembered an 'epic bane' weapon is a 'dread' weapon
I remember Agis was a level 17 psion after Kalak’s death, with Rikus close to him in level too. I am not sure, but I think Tythian was even higher level. Sadira was a 10th level wizard.
In 3.5 I would even add some aristocrat levels to both Agis and Tythian and make them level 19-20.
They weren’t wimps by any means, but they weren’t even close to Kalak’s in level. Kalak was a 5th level dragon on top of the 20/20 wizard/psion levels. In my version of a SK he would have been a 26th level character with 5 levels of a draconian template. Likely CR 29 or so. And most likely a 23 level caster/manifester, maybe even higher if he had the practiced spellcaster feat.
They got Kalak with his pants down, and they had a something that probably was an epic dragon dread (epic bane) spear. Still, they killed a creature 10 levels above their level, so… damn impressive, truly an epic feat. Yes still doable in game terms, I have seen PC parties killing single monsters 8-10 levels above their level by preparing the battle very carefully and having ready all the right buffs, spells and weapons.
If you have Kalak at CR 50 or more, which he would be with things like Dawnstealer’s build, it is completely impossible to kill him without resorting to literary licenses. Which are okay in books, but I find mighty annoying in RPGs.
Edited because I remembered an 'epic bane' weapon is a 'dread' weapon
Actually Kalak was only a 1st stage dragon in 2ed when he cast the spell. In 2ed terms (per dragon kings) Kalak was trying to skip right from 21st to 30th in 1 spell. (and they even say they were not sure it would work)
And even by my math I listed previous post ..... Kalak could have been late twenties or early thirties on levels. (as by some accounts he was a replacement champion so was not as big a part of the cleansing wars) But even if not and he was much higher level.... casting a spell with a say 20 or 40d6 backlash...... which is what you would be looking at if you were trying to mitigate that kind of epic spell...... that is going to seriously weaken an epic level caster to the point where a few hits are going to kill them.
And on players taking on creatures alot more powerfull than them..... killing "epic" creatures while they are injured is a standing method in Dark Sun. Heck in one of the published modules, your relatively young party gets to kill a dragon..... mind you he already got beaten down by another dragon (sorcerer queen in this case) but you get to finnish him off...... kind of like the heroes of tyr taking out Kalak after he was already drained from the strain of casting the spell.
So yes high level parties can take out a sorcerer king...... If and only if they have some massive backup, like artifacts and the like..... in addition to making sure you have it well planned out and you get them in a weakened state. Which is exactly what the heroes of Tyr did. The average Sorcerer king should be a heck of alot more dangerous than even a great wyrm red dragon..... and those take out high level easily if the GM is playing them right. (and my players in normal D&D games have learned to fear ancient enemies like dragons..... with age comes exp and cunning..... and all dragons are highly intelligent as they get into the older ages..... but even then I would take the weakest sorcerer king vs the greatest of the dragons from the monster manual.)
Actually Kalak was only a 1st stage dragon in 2ed when he cast the spell. In 2ed terms (per dragon kings) Kalak was trying to skip right from 21st to 30th in 1 spell. (and they even say they were not sure it would work)
You're close, but in City State of Tyr, it suggests that Kalak should now be a 25th level dragon. I took this to mean that the spell he cast was halfway through, so actually, you're both right: Kalak was a 21st level dragon, but became a (malformed?) 25th level dragon because the spell was broken (instead of 30th).
A recent dragon like Farclunn would probably have 26 levels(Wiz7/Psi7/Cere10/Dra2) at a minimum and his ECL would be about 30 due to the dragon metamorphosis.
The Sk's would not have gained much in levels in the last 2000 years due to the lack of powerful creatures to defeat or epic quests to undertake. At most they probably have gained 5-10 levels. Dregoth would be the exception because he has a Planar Gate that would enable him to encounter outsiders and the like during his planar excursions.
You're close, but in City State of Tyr, it suggests that Kalak should now be a 25th level dragon. I took this to mean that the spell he cast was halfway through, so actually, you're both right: Kalak was a 21st level dragon, but became a (malformed?) 25th level dragon because the spell was broken (instead of 30th).
Actually I was aware of the City State of Tyr statement that he was 25th..... and I came to a similiar conclusion..... that if he had actually survived the assault and was hidden he would be a 25th level dragon. (per cannon he was dead so did not want to bring my personal views on the "deaths" of champions into the discussion) But per the information in dragon kings (the main book for characters over 20th in 2ed dark sun) it specified he began the transformation at 21st and was skipping stages so I was listing the battle as having begun when he was 21st by 2ed rules.
This is why I personally favor a spells for the physical transformations and a prestige class for the magical advancement on the dragon metamorphosis. This would mean dragons like Farclunn might not even have 9th level powers yet.... and no levels in the prestige class.... but might be 3rd stage in appearance. (as he was pictured in the art for the module) While the truly powerful dragons, ie the SM's, would not have to have the less human appearance yet...... as they were focussing on the arcane/psionic powers of the transformation vs the physical.
Overall I can easily see an near epic/epic party being able to take out an epic level (even one in their 30-50th level) arcane/psionic character if they got him during casting an epic spell. (and of all the mitigating factors I see backlash as being a BIG one on the metamorphosis spells) I got the feel from the book that if the group had tried to take kalak at any other time they would have been utterly destroyed......neither agis nor tithian could take him on with the Way..... sadira vs him in magic, even with the cane, is laughable..... rikus and neeva physically attacking him, even with the spear, is a joke. Even all of them attacking him outright would be destroyed as if they were nothing. (heck if nothing else he could cast a maximized delayed blast fireball point blank and fry them all, while walking out with only minor wounds) The only way they took him down was because, and only because, they targetted him during the transformation.
Now on the slaughter of sorcerer kings in the 5th book..... all I will say is the whole party was well into epic at this point..... with multiple artifacts..... including a sword designed to kill the champions themselves by their creator. And the sword was used to kill the two the party killed.
Kalak would have reverted back to 21st level if he survived the assault. In Forest Maker Abalach-Re reverts back to 21st level if the party dsrupts her metamorphosis spell.
I disagree that the transformation and the prestige class should be two separate classes. This would balloon the required levels to even be an AB.
To say the truth I am a bit disappointed with Athas.org, not only have the dragon/avangion PrCs or templates been ‘soon to be posted’ for years, but at times it also seems that they are going to be horrendous overpowered, placing most sorcerer kings at CR40 or more, and Borys at CR60 or more.
YESS! I would sign that! Please after all those years and years of waiting finally give us something!! In my opinion the old Dragon Kings hardback was the best campaign-world info-book ever published and it gave the characters of my group (then quite low in level) somehing to strive for!
With all this time gone by with the incredible new rules (3e und3.5e) out and still my groups characters have to wonder about when they will be allowed to finally start their respective metamorphoses ...
So heads up Epic-Bureau folk! I guess we are are very eager to hear from you! And please don't over-power them to ridiculous levels ... and compare with other 3.5e worlds please (as Argaud suggested).
Now that was their level at the Begining of the cleansing wars..... not including a template for champion of Rajaat, or anything else. Then you have several thousand years of fighting in the cleansing wars......
[...]
Oh and on the hero's of Tyr..... I think you are underestimating them a bit. Agis was a master of the way. (again minimum of 12th level .... most likely much higher, I would estimate in the mid teens) Sadira could cast level 4 spells at the beginning of the books (and appeared to have a few levels in rogue.) and was the weakest character. Tythian was the highest rank [...]
Oh sorry to intrude, but you would estimate the level of the heros and the Champions? Hey we KNOW their level! And we also do have complete stats for them under 2e rules! That inculdes Rikus, Sadria and the others as well as the surviving sorceror-kings!!
And for converersion of those stats to 3e: There does exist an official Conversion Guidline from WotC!
Please don't tell me that there is someone in the Epic Bureau who doesn't know the 2e official stats for the Sorceror-kings. (And even more shocking who doesn't know that levels of the heros of Troy Dennings DarkSun epic)
As for the debate about the party versus Kalak, it all comes down to what you believe the power of the spear was and the effects of the spell casting process on Kalak. The spear did the work, it wasn't due to Rikus' high BAB. Similarly Sadira enhanced by the pristine tower was no longer the caster she was trapped in the hole, and Rikus using the Scourge was not the same against a sorcerer king as he would have been even with a +20 keen vorpal blah blah blah.
Oh sorry to intrude, but you would estimate the level of the heros and the Champions? Hey we KNOW their level! And we also do have complete stats for them under 2e rules! That inculdes Rikus, Sadria and the others as well as the surviving sorceror-kings!!
And for converersion of those stats to 3e: There does exist an official Conversion Guidline from WotC!
Please don't tell me that there is someone in the Epic Bureau who doesn't know the 2e official stats for the Sorceror-kings. (And even more shocking who doesn't know that levels of the heros of Troy Dennings DarkSun epic)
Please note everything I have been saying in these posts is my own view on the subject. Not the epic bureau. I have been answering why so many feel that the SK's would be higher than early 20's in levels. And even when comparing their 2ed versions to the 2ed versions of other "epic" mages .... ie Elminster and crew..... Lets look at Kalak.... in 2ed he had 41 levels total, 20 defiler, 20 psionicist, 1 dragon...... Elminster had what? 23 or 26 levels of wizard or something. (trying to do this from memory from the old green softcover that had all the heroes in it.) In 3.5 he is higher level than that and with all the "chosen" benefits is even higher on the CR...... So why in the world would the SK's, who were almost double his level in 2ed, be around Elminsters level in 3.5. (I am not even bringing in the whole fact that they were immortal champions with the ability to grants divine spells..... something only Deities can do in other worlds)
Yes I do know their stats and how to convert them, but the standard method for translating characters does not really work on the dragon kings..... And yes I know their stats quite well as I own copies of pretty much every book that came out for dark sun and have read them many, many times. (as it is my favorite campaign setting for D&D) Translating a 20th level defiler, 20th level psionicist, 1st level dragon (Kalaks stats) by the conversion guidelines does not give anywhere near the power levels as what was available for the same character in 2ed. (oh and on the stats of the characters for Dennings novels, yes I could dig them up but as I was posting on break from work it is kind of hard to go through all my books.)
Also The 2ed stats were much different that 3rd ed. The conversion guidelines are only good up to a point on characters and to be honest I do not feel they do justice to the characters from the novels..... as there was no aristocrat class, transfering multiclass and dual class characters gives rather skewed results..... heck using a straight conversion a dragon king would not even be able to manifest 9th level powers as well as cast 9th level spells. (without using the cerebramancer class..... and as I said in the first post, Per the fluff and cannon the Champions of Rajaat were masters of the way PRIOR to learning magic.... so the psion 5/wizard 5/cerebramancer 12 just does not work for their stats. Though that is the lowest level combination by the main rules which would allow both casting 9th level spells and manifesting 9th level powers)
Also note sadira and the rests stats were printed as listing them for after the first novel. And they really did not do justice to the characters..... and again there are classes that were not even represented in 2ed, which several of the characters would have had levels in..... which does up their level a bit. (also note I feel they had to really downgrade Agis' level in psionicist as there was a hard cap on the max level you could get..... and an earlier cap to when the Order would come after you. There is no such cap in 3.5.... and on the Order I will make no comment.)
For this discussion I was reverse engineering the Champions to give logical answers as to why they were higher levels. I was giving estimated levels to show my logic.
Oh and what I was saying was one of the ideas being considered, is the physical transformations being a set of epic level spells ..... not a class for the dragon. The dragon prestige class handles the other aspects. As far as I am aware no one on the Epic Bureau is looking at having the dragon metamorphosis requiring people to be over 30th level.... we have been looking at a much earlier level in epic by the requirements. But by the same token the SK's are not just Dragons...... they were also Champions of Rajaat.
(On a personal note, I like the idea of it only being a set of epic spell for the physical aspects as that could possibly mean ANY epic level defiler with epic spellcasting could concievably transform into a physical dragon...... but without the mastery of the way could never take the prestige class to learn the use of psionic enchantments or the dragon magic ability to drain from animal life. But that is only a personal opinion. Though this might explain nightmare beasts and the like..... hmmmmm I will have to look into that :D )
Thought I would respond real quick.
As for the debate about the party versus Kalak, it all comes down to what you believe the power of the spear was and the effects of the spell casting process on Kalak. The spear did the work, it wasn't due to Rikus' high BAB. Similarly Sadira enhanced by the pristine tower was no longer the caster she was trapped in the hole, and Rikus using the Scourge was not the same against a sorcerer king as he would have been even with a +20 keen vorpal blah blah blah.
Exactly. In each case this group used powerful artifacts...... in the first case a spear made from by a arguably epic level halfling using the Last Tree specifically to slay Kalak. (and Sadira the weakest member of the party being given another artifact, the cane, to make her even in the running) In the later novels Sadira was infused with power at the pristine tower (Quite possibly the most powerful artifact on Athas) and they had a weapon designed by the creator of the Champions and designed to slay them/make the wielder immune to their powers. (all save Hammanu)
You're ignoring one of the major benefits of having Athas.org involved instead of WOTC. WOTC has a mindset that no character or NPC should ever go beyond 30-40th level, and has made very few exceptions. Athas.org has the freedom to make the SK's how they legitimately should be, at LEAST 50th level and incredibly powerful. Overpowered is a word that doesn't apply. Their power level is appropriate for their accomplishments and the world setting.
That is not a feature, that is a problem. 50th level character have no place in Athas (or most material plane worlds) they belong to the most epic, planar-spanning campaigns.
There no need to make the SKs so high level, they don’t need to be that high level, they have no reason to be that high level and they have no justification to be that high level.
Yes, they are thousands of years old, but look at their accomplishments. Most of them were hand-picked and trained by Rajaat himself, given incredibly powerful magical items and abilities, and sent to massacre the intelligent races of Athas. Massacre being the key world. It wasn’t an epic war, it was a slaughter.
Although there is no doubt some of the champions were very notable characters (Borys and Dregoth in particular), all were power-hungry maniacs that choose the quick and dirty path to power that is defiling, and most of them sat on their assess for centuries once they got rid of Rajaat. The quick and dirty path, and the most efficient one in 3.5 (which is what Rajaat wanted) is getting Cerebremancer levels ASAP.
Old does not mean powerful, or elves and other long-lived races would dominate all worlds. They do not.
Therefore, and always in my humble opinion, it makes no sense to give the SKs so many character levels.
I don't see the SK's being 50th level per say, but I do think they are a high ECL. They are at least 30-35 in level and having a Dragon template (which I feel that it should be vs. a PrC) would increase their ECL a considerable amount. After everything is said and done, I would think realistically a SK would be a ECL 45+ character.
Please note everything I have been saying in these posts is my own view on the subject. Not the epic bureau. I have been answering why so many feel that the SK's would be higher than early 20's in levels. And even when comparing their 2ed versions to the 2ed versions of other "epic" mages .... ie Elminster and crew..... Lets look at Kalak.... in 2ed he had 41 levels total, 20 defiler, 20 psionicist, 1 dragon...... Elminster had what? 23 or 26 levels of wizard or something. (trying to do this from memory from the old green softcover that had all the heroes in it.) In 3.5 he is higher level than that and with all the "chosen" benefits is even higher on the CR...... So why in the world would the SK's, who were almost double his level in 2ed, be around Elminsters level in 3.5. (I am not even bringing in the whole fact that they were immortal champions with the ability to grants divine spells..... something only Deities can do in other worlds).
I am afraid you and me will have to agree to disagree. A level 28 or 29 wizard (I think that was Elminster level) had as many (or very close to) xps as a level 20/20 defiler/psion (defiler gained levels with far less xps than normal wizards!). Remember the progression of levels in second edition allowed a character to earn very quickly levels when he became dual-class, because the first levels took very few xps. That is the reason that in the conversions you are supposed to divide all extra levels by 3, and add them to the first (main) class to determine the final level of a character. Also, remember in 3.5 abilities ‘stack’ far better than in 2e, and with PrCs a character can advance simultaneously the abilities they want. It is not just fluff to add cerebramancer levels to the SKs, it is a perfectly reasonable assumption they would have used such path instead of wasting thousands of xp and several levels progressing first as a basic wizard, and later as a basic psion (or vice-versa) to get to the same power levels a cerebramancer would have achieved sooner.
-Not- being a cerebramancer when a character is a Champion of Rajaat would have been foolish. Rajaat was no fool, and most of the champions were quite clever too, so it stands to reason they all trained as cerebramancers.
Many of your arguments, Seker, seem to revolve around the fact you think the official books and conversions are wrong, because they don’t fit your view of the characters, who are far more powerful, again in your opinion, than they were portrayed in such official products.
Well, you are absolutely right, because in a campaign I can have level 40-100 SKs with divine ranks and state Sadira as a level 30 wizard with archmage levels and a half-celestial template
But what -I- actually see in the novels and the official rulebooks are far less powerful characters.
A level 20/20/1 Sorcerer King in second edition translates to level 27 Sorcerer King in 3.5. This conversion looks about right to me, even though I would tweak things a bit adding a template or two to the SK, so he or she might actually be CR 28 or 29, because the dragon transformation was something rather unique, and because Dragon Class levels took far more xps than regular character levels to raise. But this is just me. I think a DM can easily use ‘just’ a level 27 character as a SK and give him -very- scary powers and attributes using epic magic and epic psionics. Add to his arsenal a thousand years worth of gathering resources and building magical items, several hundred cleric servants and an army of giant warriors, and you have an enemy able to challenge most epic-level parties.
As for grating cleric spells, I think that was explained through a ritual they implemented in the Pristine Tower, which merged them with a creature called Living Vortice (or Vortex, I don’t have the books here right now). It was an epic level spell that probably required a lot of artifacts and power to cast and therefore won't be easily reproduced, but it was not something that gave them god-like powers per-se, or increased their physical or mental attributes. It might be worth one CR, but not more, since it affects mostly their servants, not themselves.
That is not a feature, that is a problem. 50th level character have no place in Athas (or most material plane worlds) they belong to the most epic, planar-spanning campaigns.
There no need to make the SKs so high level, they don’t need to be that high level, they have no reason to be that high level and they have no justification to be that high level.
Yes, they are thousands of years old, but look at their accomplishments. Most of them were hand-picked and trained by Rajaat himself, given incredibly powerful magical items and abilities, and sent to massacre the intelligent races of Athas. Massacre being the key world. It wasn’t an epic war, it was a slaughter.
Although there is no doubt some of the champions were very notable characters (Borys and Dregoth in particular), all were power-hungry maniacs that choose the quick and dirty path to power that is defiling, and most of them sat on their assess for centuries once they got rid of Rajaat. The quick and dirty path, and the most efficient one in 3.5 (which is what Rajaat wanted) is getting Cerebremancer levels ASAP.
Old does not mean powerful, or elves and other long-lived races would dominate all worlds. They do not.
Therefore, and always in my humble opinion, it makes no sense to give the SKs so many character levels.
I must respectfully disagree with this. They are not meant to be easy targets for beginning epic characters, they are gods made flesh in a setting without gods. I wish I had the quote, someone on the boards uses as a sig, something to the effect of "god killing might theoretically be possible at epic levels, but I wouldn't recommend prank calling Loki just because your odometer rolled over to 21".
As justification for the levels, I use your own points. Hand picked and trained by Rajaat. That to me signifies the best of the best in terms of strength and potential. While the race wars would have been a slaughter, there were at least pockets of epic leveled resistance - neccessitating epic leveled champions. So using that logic, at the beginning of the war, they were already epicly powerful. Now add onto that the power and potential in the dragon metamorphisis, and you wind up with something even more epic.
As to there not being a place for 50th level characters on any prime world, there isn't the easy access to the planes that other settings have, so the high level romps must take place on-world. Not only that, but in the official version of the planes, there still is no room for a 50th level character, but if you take dicefreaks version of the planes which I consider vastly superior to the wizards version, including their diety writeups and devils & demons and a 50th level dragon character is not the plane dominating character it would be in the WOTC planes.
That is not a feature, that is a problem. 50th level character have no place in Athas (or most material plane worlds) they belong to the most epic, planar-spanning campaigns.
There no need to make the SKs so high level, they don’t need to be that high level, they have no reason to be that high level and they have no justification to be that high level.
Yes, they are thousands of years old, but look at their accomplishments. Most of them were hand-picked and trained by Rajaat himself, given incredibly powerful magical items and abilities, and sent to massacre the intelligent races of Athas. Massacre being the key world. It wasn’t an epic war, it was a slaughter.
Although there is no doubt some of the champions were very notable characters (Borys and Dregoth in particular), all were power-hungry maniacs that choose the quick and dirty path to power that is defiling, and most of them sat on their assess for centuries once they got rid of Rajaat. The quick and dirty path, and the most efficient one in 3.5 (which is what Rajaat wanted) is getting Cerebremancer levels ASAP.
Old does not mean powerful, or elves and other long-lived races would dominate all worlds. They do not.
Therefore, and always in my humble opinion, it makes no sense to give the SKs so many character levels.
I see where you are coming from on this, but we just have to see we will not agree. And in 2nd edition the Dragon, Borys, had litterally had 50 levels. As he was a 20 psionicist/20 defiler/10 dragon. Though they considered him a 30th level character, he had actually gained the experience to gain 50 levels total. In fact all of the SK's had gained over 40 levels. And this was through dual classing not multiclassing..... back when if you used the abilities of your former class you gained no experience on the new class. So they literally had to start over on to get the exp to get back to 20th level.
And the Sk's can't go planar campaigns (save Dregoth) so they would be limited to Athas. And personally I see Dark Sun as one of the campaigns with the most Epic adventures. Heck to most characters from planescape, Athas would be seen as worse than some of the lower planes
On the Cleansing wars being "a massacre" you might want to look back over the timeline a bit and look at the modules and the fluff/history on Athas. First these wars took thousands of years. Second there were decent numbers of epic level psionicist in just about every city. Third there were whole schools of preservers that were fighting against the champions. (there is the ruins of one mentioned in one of the old modules..... where the preserver tried to do dragon magic to defeat the forces attacking them.) Heck even in the second novel of the pentad, they talk about the fight that Borys had with Kemalok and it was not one sided. Yeah they were able to "win" in the wars, but that does not mean it was all easy or quick massacres. (taking out towns probably were..... but taking cities..... the fluff in city by the silt sea talks about dregoths attack there.)
And again as I have said several times.... everything in the fluff or the Champions states that they were Masters of the Way prior to Rajaat ever teaching them the secrets of defiling magic. (in 2ed this meant they were already 20th level, I was giving lower levels to be generous) Now yes after they gained 3 levels of wizard I could see them going cerebramancer..... BUT these people were already masters of the way before this so that means their level would be higher. And I was even showing them going cerebramancer as soon as possible in the reverse engineering I wrote up for you.
Note I have not given any levels out in my posts for what the sorcerer kings actually are at level wise. I only reverse engineered what the minimum would have been, in m opinion. Personally I think the weakest of sorcerer kings would be in their upper 30's..... which is actually a bit lower than they were in 2ed.
I am afraid you and me will have to agree to disagree. A level 28 or 29 wizard (I think that was Elminster level) had as many (or very close to) xps as a level 20/20 defiler/psion (defiler gained levels with far less xps than normal wizards!). Remember the progression of levels in second edition allowed a character to earn very quickly levels when he became dual-class, because the first levels took very few xps. That is the reason that in the conversions you are supposed to divide all extra levels by 3, and add them to the first (main) class to determine the final level of a character. Also, remember in 3.5 abilities ‘stack’ far better than in 2e, and with PrCs a character can advance simultaneously the abilities they want. It is not just fluff to add cerebramancer levels to the SKs, it is a perfectly reasonable assumption they would have used such path instead of wasting thousands of xp and several levels progressing first as a basic wizard, and later as a basic psion (or vice-versa) to get to the same power levels a cerebramancer would have achieved sooner.
-Not- being a cerebramancer when a character is a Champion of Rajaat would have been foolish. Rajaat was no fool, and most of the champions were quite clever too, so it stands to reason they all trained as cerebramancers.
Many of your arguments, Seker, seem to revolve around the fact you think the official books and conversions are wrong, because they don’t fit your view of the characters, who are far more powerful, again in your opinion, than they were portrayed in such official products.
Well, you are absolutely right, because in a campaign I can have level 40-100 SKs with divine ranks and state Sadira as a level 30 wizard with archmage levels and a half-celestial template
But what -I- actually see in the novels and the official rulebooks are far less powerful characters.
A level 20/20/1 Sorcerer King in second edition translates to level 27 Sorcerer King in 3.5. This conversion looks about right to me, even though I would tweak things a bit adding a template or two to the SK, so he or she might actually be CR 28 or 29, because the dragon transformation was something rather unique, and because Dragon Class levels took far more xps than regular character levels to raise. But this is just me. I think a DM can easily use ‘just’ a level 27 character as a SK and give him -very- scary powers and attributes using epic magic and epic psionics. Add to his arsenal a thousand years worth of gathering resources and building magical items, several hundred cleric servants and an army of giant warriors, and you have an enemy able to challenge most epic-level parties.
As for grating cleric spells, I think that was explained through a ritual they implemented in the Pristine Tower, which merged them with a creature called Living Vortice (or Vortex, I don’t have the books here right now). It was an epic level spell that probably required a lot of artifacts and power to cast and therefore won't be easily reproduced, but it was not something that gave them god-like powers per-se, or increased their physical or mental attributes. It might be worth one CR, but not more, since it affects mostly their servants, not themselves.
looks like we were posting about pretty much the same thing, we have to agree to disagree.
oh on a few things:
I do see the cerebramancer as being a a viable class for any dragon and quite possibly the best way to go to become one. (heck in most of the versions of the dragon metamorphosis I have seen using this prestige is the shortcut to start the change at early to mid 20's level wise) My argument is simply that by what was written in 2ed about the Champions, they were masters of the way long before being trained in magic..... not that they learned both at one time. Now to go a straight translation from 2ed that means they would have to have been 20th level psionicist/psion BEFORE they ever learned magic. So while they may have gone cerebramancer in addition as soon as they could..... they would already have been extremely high level (epic) characters. (Note having the classes as you described does give the minimum level feel for a SK on power BUT it violates the fluff and history of how they were chosen by Rajaat by the books. So if this is how you want them that is fine, that is personal prefference.)
Btw I know the systems for the conversion and in most cases it works quite well..... except in cases where a character has multiple caster/manifester classes. In that case it pretty much neuters them.
And no I do not think the official books are wrong for 2nd edition.... I think they were quite well balanced for their system. In fact I loved the novels and the old 2ed and still run it on occasion, I do not tweak the SK's or anything else in 2ed I run them as written..... BUT I do not agree that the straight conversion would in any way aligned with the fluff or feel of darksun. (though it works quite well on single classed characters and noncaster multiclassed, it really makes a huge change on multiple caster type characters.) After all in 2ed 30 level was the absolute, and anything over level 20 was a MAJOR issue. However in 3.5 this is not so much the case. Taking a character able to cast spells that rival the powers of the gods in other campaigns and making it something that could be hunted down just because your party got over 20th level just does not seem right to me.... and it ruins the tone of Dark Sun. (I am sorry even epic level characters do not go after sorcerer kings normally..... because if they could, why is it that by the fluff and history of Darksun prior to the pentad series not ONE single SK was shown to have fallen to anyone other than another SK, or group of SK's.)
On the characters like Agis and the others.... they had artifacts in the first book which allowed them to win.... Their levels were not that important on the first kill. In the first novel it was circumstance as well as equipment that let them win. In later books they would have advanced further..... and they again had artifacts designed to help them win. (not just magical items.... artifacts, that is all the difference)
Yes I know that they grant powers through the living vortices..... I was not mentioning that ability because it was not pertinent to the level..... though I mentioned it to show that there are major differences between the Sk's and just standard epic characters. They are different. I can see dragons like Farclunn being in the low to mid 20's in level...... but not the champions of rajaat, as per the fluff and 2ed they were masters of psionics PRIOR to learning magic.
Btw it has been fun debating this..... I love a good discussion
After all in 2ed 30 level was the absolute, and anything over level 20 was a MAJOR issue. However in 3.5 this is not so much the case. Taking a character able to cast spells that rival the powers of the gods in other campaigns and making it something that could be hunted down just because your party got over 20th level just does not seem right to me.... and it ruins the tone of Dark Sun. (I am sorry even epic level characters do not go after sorcerer kings normally..... because if they could, why is it that by the fluff and history of Darksun prior to the pentad series not ONE single SK was shown to have fallen to anyone other than another SK, or group of SK's.)
Although I am not terribly interested in continuing the discussion, I want to comment something about this
I think challenging the SKs is what any epic party should do in an Dark Sun campaign. C’mon, that is exactly what Rikus, Sadira and Agis did! Defeating them is a goal worthy of a truly epic campaign, if I ever saw one!
Because what party of heroes is going to ignore the NEED to bring down monsters like those and free the oppressed slaves of Athas?
Because what party of malefactors is going to ignore the chance to wrestle the control of one of the few valuable pieces of land left on the world: a city state?
And frankly, there is not much more to do in Athas once you get to epic level. The desert holds no more terrors when you can teleport, shapeshift and slay a nightmare beast with your bare hands without receiving a scratch. Sure, there are interesting ruins to explore, the deadlands, maybe some weirdness going on in the elemental planes. But among the city states, which are almost without doubt the homeland of the characters, what can they do but clash with the big evil guys?
Also, I don’t buy that the rulership of the SKs has gone unchallenged for 2,000 years. That they have been able to maintain their stranglehold of the land means only the heroes of the past weren’t good enough to triumph over them, or bold enough to try (at least not for any length of time – for instance, I think it is possible one or more of the SKs has been slain in the past by some great hero, only to be resurrected by contingent epic spells, or just cloned, and retaken his or her position a few years, or decades, later).
I am not saying taking down one of the Sorcerer Kings is an easy task. Just like taking down a near CR 30 dragon or lich is not an easy task in other worlds, but by the early 20s of epicness the characters are ready to start a revolution. They would need to gather artifacts, information, allies, etc, etc. They would need to survive the agents of the SK hunting them down, and maybe the SKs epic wrath too, and probably they would need to earn a few more levels before being ready. But that it has not been done in the past (except it has, look at Kalak!) does not mean it can’t be done.
And again, I wouldn’t compare the SKs to the gods, they are not gods and they are not even close to gods. Epic spells and psionics do not make a character equal to a god, and that is what the SKs have, no more and no less. And those are powers player characters can master too.
And frankly, there is not much more to do in Athas once you get to epic level. The desert holds no more terrors when you can teleport, shapeshift and slay a nightmare beast with your bare hands without receiving a scratch. Sure, there are interesting ruins to explore, the deadlands, maybe some weirdness going on in the elemental planes. But among the city states, which are almost without doubt the homeland of the characters, what can they do but clash with the big evil guys?
A creative DM can do a lot of things with epic characters, unique monsters, advanced monsters, characters with comparable levels and classes as recurring enemies. A 50th level SK could have an abundance of 20-30th level assistants and associates that could provide combat challenges.
If the desert holds no more terror, then make it terrifying again. Aren't there new monsters being born in the desert all the time, mutated by the aftereffects of lifeshaping magic of ages ago?
Aside from combat, there are a limitless number of things to do. Foiling the plans of an SK, being involved in the political struggles in a city or between cities, trying to assist the VA or even becoming a leader in the VA. Amassing enough of a fortune to try and mkae some kind of change within a city state, without arousing the ire of a SK.
Although I am not terribly interested in continuing the discussion, I want to comment something about this
I think challenging the SKs is what any epic party should do in an Dark Sun campaign. C’mon, that is exactly what Rikus, Sadira and Agis did! Defeating them is a goal worthy of a truly epic campaign, if I ever saw one!
Because what party of heroes is going to ignore the NEED to bring down monsters like those and free the oppressed slaves of Athas?
Because what party of malefactors is going to ignore the chance to wrestle the control of one of the few valuable pieces of land left on the world: a city state?
And frankly, there is not much more to do in Athas once you get to epic level. The desert holds no more terrors when you can teleport, shapeshift and slay a nightmare beast with your bare hands without receiving a scratch. Sure, there are interesting ruins to explore, the deadlands, maybe some weirdness going on in the elemental planes. But among the city states, which are almost without doubt the homeland of the characters, what can they do but clash with the big evil guys?
Also, I don’t buy that the rulership of the SKs has gone unchallenged for 2,000 years. That they have been able to maintain their stranglehold of the land means only the heroes of the past weren’t good enough to triumph over them, or bold enough to try (at least not for any length of time – for instance, I think it is possible one or more of the SKs has been slain in the past by some great hero, only to be resurrected by contingent epic spells, or just cloned, and retaken his or her position a few years, or decades, later).
I am not saying taking down one of the Sorcerer Kings is an easy task. Just like taking down a near CR 30 dragon or lich is not an easy task in other worlds, but by the early 20s of epicness the characters are ready to start a revolution. They would need to gather artifacts, information, allies, etc, etc. They would need to survive the agents of the SK hunting them down, and maybe the SKs epic wrath too, and probably they would need to earn a few more levels before being ready. But that it has not been done in the past (except it has, look at Kalak!) does not mean it can’t be done.
And again, I wouldn’t compare the SKs to the gods, they are not gods and they are not even close to gods. Epic spells and psionics do not make a character equal to a god, and that is what the SKs have, no more and no less. And those are powers player characters can master too.
I actually agree with you on any epic party should be targetting the SK's and I think they would be a MAJOR thorn in the sides of the Sk's. My point is if a epic party wants to take one down..... you are going to need alot planning to find a point when they are weakest (ie Kalak and the dragon transformation, Borys and the dark lens being near his city.... etc..) and use powerfull artifacts designed to take them out. (Every single SK killed, not by Rajaat himself, was slain by the use of artifacts designed to kill them, not just magic items.... artifacts.)
And in 2nd edition the powers of the Dragon Kings was equivelent to the powers of gods in other worlds. They were not gods they just happened to be about as powerfull as demigods at the very least. And the SK's do have powers that players cannot muster.... they can grant powers and they were Champions of Rajaat, for what ever that is determined to mean.
Note I did not say the SK's were unchallenged..... just that by 2ed rules and all the official cannon fluff I have ever seen, NOT one Champion of Rajaat has been killed by anyone other than another Champion prior to the pentad series. There probably were other Epic groups that went after them..... just none succeeded in killing an SK. That does say something. That means while it is possible to take them down..... it is going to need some special planning to do so. And in one of the modules that had a normal dragon fighting a Champion (farclunn vs a Sorcerer Queen if I remember right.) The normal dragon got beaten badly...... even though both were in a weakened state due to the ruins they were in. (the party gets to finnish off a dragon n that I loved it.)
And to be perfectly honest, no matter how high you have a SK, if the party is ingenious enough the Dragon is going down. I have seen well thought out low level parties (level 3-5) take out mature adult red dragons before..... and in 2ed darksun as I noted above a relatively low level party gets to help finnish off a dragon. So the level of the Sk's is not as important as well prepared the party is...... but by the same token if you make them too weak, there becomes no reason for them to have survived as long as they did.
And there would not be alot of epic level creatures roaming around the table land because when one shows up the Sk's squash it. Now the Deadlands, kreen empire, last sea, Ur Draxa, Bodach, pristine tower, the silt sea itself, and the uncounted unexplored areas of Athas would all have a much wider variety of epic challenges..... And personally I would be sending my epic character out to try and find allies against the SK's far from their homes...... as I would still have to sleep sometime.... and a dagger between the shoulders cramps the style of any wizard.
again I have been having fun on this. Thank you for the fun discussion.
There's always the Inner Planes. Epic level characters could become embroiled in the politics of the Elemental planes. Dealing with Elemental Lords and their minions. Good stuff.
That's is true, but the inner planes are not Athas. So I think an epic campaign revolving around inner planar conflicts would be fascinating, but it wouldn’t be Dark Sun anymore; just like a campaign in which the epic level characters become embroiled in the Blood War wouldn’t be Greyhawk anymore, even if the characters are native from Oerth.
And I agree taking down one of the SKs should be very difficult. But we are talking city rules of nearly CR 30 that are thousands years old. Defeating one of them is a feat comparable with defeating an ancient lich of nearly CR 30 (that is thousands years old) in Oerth, or an advanced Pit Fiend of nearly CR 30 (that is thousands years old) in Sigil, or an almost CR 30 Dragon Overlord (that is thousands years old) in Krynn: It is the stuff of epic adventures.
That's is true, but the inner planes are not Athas. So I think an epic campaign revolving around inner planar conflicts would be fascinating, but it wouldn’t be Dark Sun anymore; just like a campaign in which the epic level characters become embroiled in the Blood War wouldn’t be Greyhawk anymore, even if the characters are native from Oerth.
The Elemental Planes, at least in the DS cosmology, are very much tied to Athas and would still be very much Dark Sun.
Athas is arguably the most epic of all worlds, even more then Planescape, but who cares? Athas has no Gods, so it needs SKs and ABs, Borys had over 20 single-classed, 20-30 level, Kaishargas, to do his bidding, they were in some way "ancient" Lichs, well Rikus beat them anyway, so the Heroes had to be epic too, but again who cares.
I think the best way to handle the SKs stats would be not doing them at all, except for Dregoth (because of DA), because there is not way a part will fight a God or a SK, only if the DM allows it, and he should be able to make the SKs as powerful or as weak as he needs them to be for his plans. There are so many members of the Order, so many epic undead and so many monsters out there in the wastes, there is no need for a DM to worry about the SKs, heck they would never fight in person, they have enough cannon fodder ;).
I also would like to know exactly how powerful they are but I don't believe we will ever agree. I would have them between 60-90, at least, Levelwise, with a much higher CR, but this is the point about this whole matter, no one will be pleased. Nothing new you might say, you can't please everyone, but when you consider that the SKs are one of the most important things that make Athas unique you have at least to try it, and in this case it would be better to do nothing, just my opinion, at least nothing official. Or we vote how powerful we want them, anyway.......
A world ravaged by the fould magic of powerhungry SKs..........?
That's is true, but the inner planes are not Athas.
Check out the Planes of Athas thread. The Inner Planes of Athas are isolated, and what happens on the planet happens on the Planes. Likewise the other way.
I tend to stick with the group that says the SKs should be overpowered. They are quite literally the "gods of Athas." Some have been alive for over 4,000 years. 4,000 years is a very long time. Do you really, truly believe that in that time not one epic level character challenged them? Of course not.
I personally believe the bar should be set exceedingly high to become an advanced being, but that's because my players do not play into the Epic Levels; they like the lower levels (13th and down) because they think it's more fun to be scared of everything (I guess). If your players regularly reach epic levels, you should probably stick to the lower-level model (where you only need 26-28 levels to become an advanced being). If your players are like mine, then go with the 20/20 model.
Lukasz has a great point about not statting out the Sorcerer Kings. The only way an SK should be taken down is either with an artifact specifically created for such a purpose (read: heartwood spear, Scourge) or by another SK (Hamanu killing Sielba, all the SKs "killing" Dregoth, etc). The case of Kalak is often pointed to, but keep in mind that Kalak was killed during the casting of an extremely high-level spell with likely equally high backlash, he was concentrating on sucking the life out of an entire city, and he had just been attacked by an artifact.
I don't think I can stress that last one enough: AN ARTIFACT. Not some toy spear: a spear specifically designed to kill a dragon. And maybe even Kalak, specifically. Add to this that it was part of a novel, and not an actual adventure or gameplay, and you have a literary device that's being used to advance the plot. Troy felt the need to free Tyr for the plotline, so he came up with a semi-plausible way to do it. That doesn't mean that, in a game, all the SKs are cake to beat if you happen to cross the "20 threshhold."
Dark Sun was aimed at advanced players and advanced GMs; the villains should be souped up to match, in my opinion.
All of that said, if having weaker Sorcerer Kings in your campaign is more fun for you as a GM and your players, then by all means make them weaker. It's just not what I would do in mine.
Here's one thought though, look at the battle against Kalak. He was involved in a very tough spell, basically, they caught him with his pants down when they rammed a spear right up his.... through his heart :P and there is a good deal of opportunity for spell backlash there. However, don't think for a minute that if they'd tried the same thing at any other moment they'd have had a chance.. if his mind wasn't otherwise occupied there's no way that spear could have reached him, a simple spell with a contingency would easily protect him there, but his mind coudln't call forth such protection involved as it was..
Borys however, was plain overconfident. He was a 30th level Dragon fully transformed, he was playing with his food, and they weren't very successful at being more than a distraction. He wasn't being serious, and probably wasn't aware of the devastating ability Rikus' sword had when broken. Yes, it was a sword crafted by Rajaat, but what champion of Rajaat can fathom the powers and abilities stowed away in a creation of their masters.. (they couldn't really understand themselves, and lost swords they no longer needed were surely of no consequence right??) Basically, Borys was dumb.. however,
Being on the Defensive can make them stupid, but when they go on the offensive, they are a mighty force to be reconed with! Hence how they are able to take each other out. Kalak was distracted, Borys was arrogant and didn't take into account the power of his old master hidden away in that sword. And as was spoken, they had artifacts, very rare now destroyed artifacts... try repeating that again! Not likely!!
I suppose an Avangion could just fold in on itself to fit(They're incorporeal and wispy) and a Dragon could just sit on top of it. But they can both fly, so it kind of is a moot point. But I see where you're going with that. I'll give it some thought!
They can also just polymorph into a form that would fit as well.
It's kinda the same reason I always found it lazy to say dragons (of normal worlds) cast wizard or priest spells with the same area of effect or power as humans... they are bigger more magical creatures, they deserve more potency. A lightning Bolt spell to them is like a magic missile spell to a human. (kinda)
Besides, an AB is powerful enough to find alternative means to this spell's defensive benefits.
I havent' looked through lots of powers but... there are a few here and there that would no longer work.. that one is a relatively unimportant one, but if you broaden the concept.. What about everyone's favorite, Prismatic Sphere???
Personally, I would allow it to work on their draconic forms. I don't see it as game breaking. Even if it didn't work, they would still find uses for those powers/spells. It seems that the SK's spend a lot time in human(iod) guises and would still benefit from them greatly.
Does anyone here remember what that old 2e psionic power is called that kinda grumbles and screws over the attempt of anyone to use psionics in an area?? could it be argued that for a special power, the SK's with vortices.. are able to sort of short circuit an area arround them so that druids can't gain major spells??? I'd think that would be great in that war the SK's had with the druids a while back... In my campaign's I'd like to add that ability to just the SM's, so that they could be even tougher than your general AB Dragon embryo..
(The spirit of the city itself is another matter, undetectable to Hamanu, and he does not know such an entity is even possible.)
I have no preference, but I can say this thought: the ABs will be PrCs and their will be templates confered. The prerequisites and level adjustments can vary, which will determine the bare minimum level for a character to become an AB.
But, a 1st level dragon might be as powerful as a 3rd level elemental cleric, but might take more levels to achieve, balancing out in the end.
Does anyone have a variation on that theme for the other elements and para-elements??? I think it is very fiting to have a character take that in prep for becoming an Elemental Advanced Being
(imagine the damage reduction stacking :P which in my view is totally acceptable in an advanced being, even if it doesn't stack until they are in their elemental form).Any thoughts?? I just thought it would be great to see an Epic Pyrokinetic / Elemental (Fire) Cleric
Is there an Epic version of that PrC already??
Does anyone have a variation on that theme for the other elements and para-elements???
Someone does:
The Mind's Eye
I'm slowly migrating over
Migrate Hard and Fast:
The Mind's Eye compiled archives conveniently separated in a 3.0 and a 3.5 PDF.
I'll add this in, but won't alter it much, so when it may refer to other people's postings on that thread..
Check it, let me know what you think
Ok, here goes.. this will be "very" long
Yes, as was stated earlier, I'm talking about a PrC to succeed where Rajaat Failed. And tap the very life spring of Athas itself.. I think this would be a good counterpart for a True Defiler PrC for Dragons (like how Hamanu had extra talent in that area vs the other dragons in RaFoaDK).
This is just for a basic rough Idea of what may be involved in the PrC capabilities.. and I think it works well because the training involved takes a very long time, and only something immortal like an Avangion or Spirit of the Land could conceivably have the serenity of mind to go this route..
I haven't yet decided if this should be available to Avangions or Spirits, I'll let that be open for discussion after I post these ideas..
Ok, I'm quoting or summarizing from a FR book called Carmanthyr: Empire of the Elves.. check the back of that book for more details.. I'm editing out mentions of Toril or Elves, focusing on the magic itself.. trying to get the livign magic feel that I think Epic Avangion or Spirit magic could have.. I think these things are fairly close to what I'm looking for.. after reading this over, I got the sense that this had a great Athasian feel especially if you think of it in terms of the way magic on Athas works..
I'm partially quoting sections here.. (check pages 123 - 148 of the above cited book)
"Magic is not some idle power or tool that awaits your beck and call. It is a living thing, a vigor that permeates the planet and the air, and can rightly be called.. (the planets) life force. Magic demands your respect. Magic encourages cooperation. Magic requires understanding. Magic Needs passion, for only in emotion can it truly become Art. Magic is not merely a pawn or force to manipulate at will and whim, for to do so is to invite disaster. Magic is not power, magic simply is."
hehe, try telling "that" to Rajaat! lol, some of the above would explain why he failed, he tried to take, he was a defiler through and through...
"... the Weave, the mystical balance of forces and energies that govern magic.. "
"High Magic's primary use is the protection and support of the Weave, the forces of nature, and for the betterment of ... High Magic may create mythals to protect cities and gates to allow instantaneous transport across the planet, or.. to grow majetstic buildings and walls around their sylvan cities. However, High Magic also (and far more frequently) is used to prevent droughts and blight from destroying forest glades, slow or speed the flow of rivers or winter run-off to prevent (or sometimes cause) floods, and work with the magics inherent in the planet to find large-scale problems and solve them for the Weave and all the races..."
"High Magic depends on the unity of Mind, Spirit, Emotion, and Sense of Self and community within the High Mage and his surroundings."
"Like Many forces, High Magic is both one thing and many. In its fullest essence, High Magic is the direct energy of the Weave, the web of energy that sustains the planet's life (and tha tof enery living being upon it) and provides the source of magic for both wizards and Hgih Mages. Whereas wizardly magic pulls an infinitesimal bit of energy out of the Weave to harness its effects, High Magic Maintains the Weave but redirects and Manipulates the local flow of energy to achieve the effects of the ritual."
Ok then, I'll paraphrase some stuff here because this thread would go on forever, also, the following isn't necessarily required, but could be kept and still have a nice flavor to it.. especially if more were done on cooperative magics.. which would explain the champions teaming up magically to imprison thier master, but that would be less effective than the following..
There are three types of High Magic rituals, Rituals of Solitude, Rituals off Complement, and Rituals of Myriad..
Rituals of Solitude - simply put, one caster required for the effect, little danger in the casting, and little stress upon the Weave.
Ritual of compliment - three casters required, each mind is linked and defenseless to the other, each performing part of the casting, major repurcussions happen if an individual in the casting tries to disrupt things through that mental link. (not to mention its bad form).
Ritual of Myriad - At least 5 High Mages in a center circle, sometimes 9, with lesser High Mages supporting outside that, purification rituals are often an opening to these potent sorceries, normal wizards may also passively join and support the casting (through the help of the main caster) granting spell slot memory to bolster the casting..
Training -
Originally you had to be at least 450 years old, (to gain time to mature) 17th level and have a Con of 12 and Int "and" Wis of 18 to begin studying.. on Athas I'd step that up quite a bit..
Training time, at least 75-100 years but can be more.
"Students are taught meditative techniques to allow themselves to more readily feel, see, and sense the Weave around and within them. In essence, the apprenticeship teaches the student to look beyond the physical world without the use of spells or other devices."
"By concentrating on the flow of water; (a student) can learn how and where it moves, what forces are at play within it, and how any intervention affects that flow. Once students master that, they learn the same about wood smoke, meditating in a smoke lodge for months or years at a time until they can track the tiniest cinder into the sky above the trees. By the time a student learns to see the flow of incense, then wind, and then heat, he begins to see hints of the weave. Students then learn to focus on the sun, moon, and other celestial bodies. They study each in turn, watching them rise and set, following the flow of light, energy, and the many forces set forth by each in succession."
Abilities Gained from Training alone...
Detect Magic - for every hundred years over 500, two schools of magic can be identified, at 900, all 8 can be detected.
See through Illusion - your intelligence is regarded as 2 points higher for ignoring illusion (check the old 2e intelligence table for that) for those of intelligence of 24 and 25 that meant being able to see through 8th and 9th level illusions, something no other mortal caster could do. (Very handy for an Epic caster, especially with how Dragons love illusions upon themselves..
Spell Boost - a 2 point penalty to apponents saves, and their age added to a spells range in feet.
Hindrance - can't caste regular (1st - 9th) wizard spells prior to casting a High Magic Ritual. Magic items are ok though.
There are a variety of protections involved in casting High Magic, preventing disturbances, and there are a variety of High Magic rituals listed, which I won't place here (this is long enough already!) However, just to finish the last little bit.. there are serious dangers to a caster of High Magic, sometimes it takes his life to complete a casting, sometimes less serious but just as dangerous effects apply. However, earthchanging and world altering are the effects of High Magic..
I wouldn't mind seeing some of the above modified and placed in with regular Psionic Enchantments but anyway, tell me what you think, remember, this was all written in 2e, so it would need some modification for 3.5, however I think the spirit of it is good, and would well fit Athasian Preserver wizards
So, this is "something" like what I had in mind for a Land Touched Wizard Epic PrC I'd take this thought and use it to enhance Avangion Psionic Enchantments or Epic Level casting.. like I said, an uber good guy PrC, while a Dragon could take the True Defiler PrC... what mods would you make? or would you toss it out all together???
As if I haven't said enough!
Here's a High Magic Ritual that I think is kind of interesting, considering the whole thing behind Rajaat and his Champions entoombing him in the Hollow..
It's called "The Banishing, Binding Outside of the People's Lands" pg 137
In part I'll quote it here, sound "similar" to what binds Rajaat? You tell me
"The most Advanced form of this ritual fully banishes the entity permanently from (that realm) and confines said Physical Avatar in a subdimentional prison. All levels of binding must have one way to undo the binding set by the High Mages".
Now, there aren't any Deities or Avatars on Athas, so such a spell would be different that just described... but.. sounds kinda like what separated Rajaat and sealed him in a subdemension of the Black called the Hollow, don't you think??
(And I know the original ritual is also crafted to work on extraplanar creatures, work with me people I'm going on spirit of the concept, not letter of the law )
However, the original ritual did require hundreds to thousands of hit points to fuel the spell. (in this case, in the form of the caster's lives.) Dragons would of course, like all life leaches, steal the life energy from others