Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 true_blue Dec 23, 2004 2:56:12	As I have two wizards in my campaign, I've started kind of noticing a trend. Both of them ended up going specialist, and amazingly both of them chose Evocation. It is of course, a popular school. Well, one player, she chose Enchantment and Necromancy as her banned schools. Which wasn't too bad. But then after she took the test she ended up with Black Robes. Now I don't personally care, but I did find it kind of funny that the Black Robes main schools are Necromancy and Enchantment. My brother made up a Black Robe who started out at 7th level, since his last player died. He ended up choosing Enchantment and Conjuration. Now he's kind of kicking himself because he's starting to find a lot of Conjuration spells he likes. The thing I've noticed, whenever I see someone specialize.. they mainly get rid of the same schools over and over again. Even when I see people on the boards here, it seems a lot of times the banned schools are the same. It seems Enchantment is always gone. That seems to be the first pick. After that.. its Necromancy and Illusion. After that...*maybe* you will see Abjuration, but I think most people keep it for Dispel Magic. Does anyone really see much different? I dunno, it kind of bothers me that Enchantment is kind of the stepchild who everyone just ignores. Illusion I think would be dropped a *lot* more if it wasnt for Invisibility. My little brother keeps Necromancy mainly because of False Life. I just find it kind of sad that the other schools almost always stay and these just get pushed to the side. If I ever played in Dragonalnce(and not DM'd), I've sworn to make a wizard who gets rid of Evocation and is still a viable player. I'm dead sure it can be done, especially utilizing Conjuration because that school has some attack spells in it also. I had an NPC join up with my party for awhile who had Evocation banned just to see how it would work out.. but I had dumbed down him way too much. His spells ended up being way less useful that what I thought. Right about where I started getting him "corrected" and he was getting useful spells, he ended up dying. Even had a PC die trying to save him. I dunno, I guess mainly this thread is a small rant, but I'm also wondering of other people actually see other banned schools. Or do you all also see Enchantment given up a lot.. with Illusion and Necromancy a close second.
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2004 8:33:39	Kornaith, my namesake, as 16th level necromancer, gave up evocation and conjuration for his specialization. I started him out under 2nd ed so he had different banned schools, which I didn't like, but those were the rules at the time. When we switched to 3.x I updated his sheet and choose 2 others that more reflected his personality. Now when I make an NPC wizard baddie to put up against the party, I usually choose Evocation as the specialty that or not as one of the banned schools. My other NPC wizards the party meets are usually red and white robes that have taken Evocation as a banned school.
#3 Dragonhelm Dec 23, 2004 9:40:24	My general rule of thumb for WoHS (not renegades) is that you can only specialize in a school favored by your order, and only drop schools favored by another order. You can never drop a school favored by your own order. White Robes would tend to drop schools favored by Black Robes, and then vice versa. As for Red Robes, I would have them drop Abjuration (since you can't drop Divination) and one of the schools favored by the Black Robes. If you take the Arcane Focus class ability (formerly Enhanced Specialization), then I would have White Robes drop the favored schools of the Black Robes, Black Robes drop Abjuration and the two favored schools of the Red Robes, and the Red Robes have no choice but to drop Abjuration, Enchantment, and Necromancy. The nice thing about going this route is that it gives renegades something to call their own, as they can then specialize in one of the schools of magic not favored by any of the orders, such as Conjuration or Evocation. It gives them some identity. Anyway, that's a house rule of mine for when wizards specialize. I'm happy enough to allow the generalist option as well.
#4 wolffenjugend_dup Dec 23, 2004 11:56:32	Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy spells all require a lot of DM interpretation and allowance. The first is particularly well suited to role-playing intensive games and not to combat-oriented ones. The last is usually frowned upon in non-evil games. And the middle one always requires interpretation. It's much simpler to use the run-and-gun schools that don't require a lot of arguing over.
#5 true_blue Dec 23, 2004 12:22:17	I guess I don't have a problem with specialists belonging to every order. I maintain you can only have Arcane Focus in schools that are favored by your order though. I personally think you could find Evocation specialists in the Black Robes, Conjuration specialists in the White Robes, etc. But as you said Dragonhelm, thats a house rule of yours. I'm not a big fan of my players taking banned schools of their speciality, but I guess I let it happen. One of my players didnt know she was going to be a Black Robe, figured she would be a Red Robe. But actions, in and out of the Test, have earned her Black Robes. Now shes borderline if she wants to try to switch to Red Robes. I really would hate to have her keep flip flopping her banned schools because shes on the fence of what Robe she will be. So I dont have too much of a problem with her banned schools being Necromancy and Enchantment. My brother chose Conjuration and Enchantment. He just really doesnt like Enchantment heh. I kind of let it go because he did choose Conjuration, which is a pretty good school. I guess I dont mind too much if they take one favored school as a banned school, just dont like to see both. I dunno, I guess my problem is with how specialists work just in general. I wish some of these schools had even better spells so that no matter what school you chose, you lose out on something. I think then you would see a little bit more variety, maybe not. But then again I dont see too many White Robes in my campaign.. but I have a feeling if I did.. almost to a T they would choose Necromancy and Enchantment... and then Illusion if they had Arcane Focus. But then again I still havent convinced any of my players Arcane Focus is worth it . And I'm having a hard time conving myself evn heh
#6 cam_banks Dec 23, 2004 14:38:01	Enhanced specialization (from the DLCS) was revised as Arcane Focus to allow the following: * Wizards who enter the Orders without a specialist school of magic may take one of their Order's two favored schools with their 1st level of the prestige class, making it unnecessary to plan ahead too much or decide your affiliation before you take the Test; * Wizards who enter the Orders as specialists in one of the Order's two favored schools may gain additional benefits at the cost of making one of the other two Order's favored schools a prohibited school. There's nothing to prevent you from starting as a specialist wizard in Dragonlance, passing the Test, and then taking the prestige class without the optional Arcane Focus. A conjurer or evoker makes a fine member of any of the three Orders, and all three Orders make use of these schools. However, I would suggest that the overwhelming majority of 1st-level wizards on Ansalon are not specialists, and only become one later. Cheers, Cam
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2004 16:35:56	I prefer generalist wizards, but i find Enchantment very fun. I see Divination, Necromancy and/or Illusion gone pretty often. Most wizards the party encounters are generalists, though, due to my aforesaid preference.
#8 cam_banks Dec 23, 2004 19:43:04	I prefer generalist wizards, but i find Enchantment very fun. I see Divination, Necromancy and/or Illusion gone pretty often. Most wizards the party encounters are generalists, though, due to my aforesaid preference. Divination can't be chosen as a prohibited school, of course. Cheers, Cam
#9 Nived Dec 24, 2004 18:33:39	You know an Illusionist that drops Evocation and Conjuration doesn't loose much in the long run. With Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration you get a lot more versitility, access to the spells you've given up. Sure you're spells will have two saves in stead of one, but eh.
#10 darthsylver Dec 24, 2004 19:03:04	Finally!!!!!! Someone else who has noticed those often forgotten shadow spells (You know the ones that replicate Conjuration and Evocation spells). Just to add to the conversation. I recently made up a Kapak Transmuter who gave up Conjuration and Necromancy at first and then Enchantment later after becoming a Red Robe. He also took spell focus in Evocation. Short History. (Snake is his name) He was an assassin (Rog 2) for the dragonarmies during the WoTL, but was always interested in magic. He killed a Wizard (a Transmuter) and began studying magic. (by this time the WoTL was over). He left the dragonarmies and made his way in the world using magic and rogue to earn his keep. Eventually he ran across a white robe who realized Snake was above the level required to take the test, snake was a Wiz5. Snake took the test and became a red robe. He studied as a WoHS until the War of Chaos, and he became a War Mage. Currently he is a Kapak\Rog2\Transmuter5\Red Robe5\War Mage3. :D :D
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 25, 2004 7:14:01	In another (non-DL) campaign that a friend of mine runs, I play a diviner. I took evocation as my barred school, and have loved it. I joined the group late, and am lower level than the other wizard in the party, who is pretty much a fireball-lobbing pyromaniac. I knew that I would never do as much direct damage as him, so I never learned a single damaging spell. I use my divinations to help out in diplomatic/negotiating situations, and act as both an interpreter (tongues) and spy (detect thoughts). True strike is an excellent in-combat spell, try combining it with power attack. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance has helped me become an excellent scout, at times, and scry is very useful (though the material component cost can be a bit prohibitive). Though it's not my specialty, Illusion might as well be. In combat, even though I'm not wearing a lick of armor, I probably get hit the least out of anyone in the group. Mirror Image, displacement, and other illusion spells make me a pretty decent threat in melee. :fight!: I'm really happy with the selections I made, and at this point I am VERY happy I barred evocation. Recently the group has been running up against a lot of demons, devils, and other nasty critters that take less damage from things like fire, ice, and lightning, making our fireballer much less effective.
#12 kalanth Dec 27, 2004 12:21:03	I notice the same trend, every mage I see play usually has some form of focus in Evocation or another. Finally, I was shown how to play a mage that does not blow things up all the time when I ran a campaign on my homebrew world. The mage was a dark mage who banned Evocation and Necromancy, and focused on Conjuration. Eventually he became a master at summoning devils, demons, and just about anything evil he could. He even had purpose and story behind the banned schools. Evocation was because he felt that a subtle approach was more effective, and if he really needed to harm someone, then he was well trained with a sword (the fighter in the party spent the first 3 levels teaching the mage so the player could justify spending the feet). The Necromancy was banned because, even though he was evil, this mage had a respect for life. He wished to control people through intimidation and the muscle of others than to utilize the power of the undead. In the long run, the player even went so far as to request that necromancy and things deriving from it be his weekness. He actually wanted all undead to do double damage to him, and he suffered negatives to his saving throws versus any necromantic spell that could effect him. The character was very cool, and since that was the last campaign run on my world, he still rules over the land with an Iron fist, and a gentle hand towards those that were nearly extinct before he gained control.
#13 dea_ex_machina Dec 27, 2004 12:55:24	Evocation is a very powerful school for combat, if a campaign is going to work around more politics and such like many of my games have been you can easily give up Evocation for whatever school would be most enjoyable to you. Personaly I enjoy Enchantment both for the mind control and the number of spells they can fill out item requirements for, I just burn through levels in item creation...
#14 darthsylver Dec 29, 2004 14:30:04	You also need to realize that if you are an Illusionist you can ban Evocation and Conjuration and still be able to cast these spells through shadow spells (shadow conjuration and shadow Evocation) if you really needed to cast one of these spells.
#15 Nived Dec 29, 2004 19:37:17	Indeed, also Shadow Evocation is flexible. An Evoker (unless allowed a crazy feat like substitute energy) has to pick and choose his damage types at the begining of the day often not knowing what he's likely to fight. An Illusionist using Shadow Evocation can choose when he casts it whether he's casting Fireball or Lightning Bolt. There are, of course, downsides. Two saves (first Will, then whatever save the spell originally had likely Reflex). Now a properly built Illusionist will have high DCs, and if I'm not mistaken both saves are increased by Spell Focus Illusion. Now don't get me wrong, an Illusionist that gives up Evocation will never be able to cast 8th, and 9th Evocation spells, however all the 7th and lower ones are his. This can't be said for someone who gives up other spell schools. Same with the Shadow Conjuration spells. I once again make the statement Illusionists that give up Evocation and Conjuration don't lose much, certainly not as much as other specialists. A total loss of 3 levels of spells (8,9 evo and 9 conj) rather than 18 levels of spells, I would say they have it better than Diviners, but illusionist have only so many Shadow spells per level, and most of those are higher level spells. The only question then is what to give up when becoming a Wizard of High Sorcery. Choices are limited to Necromancy, Abjuration, and Enchantment... each has their pros and cons and I'd say none in inherantly worse than the others, but I personally would be loath to give up Abjuration, and Enchantment works well with Illusion... so I'd give up Necromancy. *EDIT* I forgot the spell "Shades" did 8th level and lower Conjuration and had to change my numbers.
#16 zombiegleemax Dec 30, 2004 23:12:36	I would seriously consider specializing in necromancy after picking up Libris Mortis yesterday. For banned schools i would go with evocation because i don't see how a Necromancer would seriously need it. And maybe Transmutation or Enchantment.
#17 true_blue Dec 31, 2004 0:41:52	I understand that it *is* possible for there to be a specialist wizard who gives up Evocation. I was just mainly curious if other people actually ever saw it. I can make a pretty good wizard with good offensive spells using a combination of Conjuration, Illusion, and Transmutation. But just because it can be done, it doesnt mean it occurs very often. I just happened to notice a trend of Necromancy, Illusion, and Enchantment being given up the most. Just was wondering if other people actually saw other schools get taken out. The wizards in my campaign mainly focus on battle magic, so I can see how my group may be a little different. But a few other times I've seen people on the boards talk, it kind of seemed they did the same thing with Necromancy and Enchantment gone a lot. I think the most popular schools to get rid of go in this order: Enchantment/Necromancy, Illusion, Abjuration, Conjuration, Transmutation, Evocation. Of course this is my opinion. As I've said before, I have yet to convince any of my players that Arcane Focus is worth it. Even though I don't think it is, I try to convince them to see something a little different. Mostly only the NPC's I make up end up having Arcane Focus, seeing as how even the NPC's in the books don't even take it heh. I think that says something about it. Granted there's only been like 13 or so wizards statted out, but still.. I find it amazing. As I said before, I think if I ever played a wizard I would ban Evocation, and focus on Conjuration and some Transmutation. But I doubt that will happen seeing as how I DM.
#18 zombiegleemax Dec 31, 2004 13:04:03	I understand that it *is* possible for there to be a specialist wizard who gives up Evocation. I was just mainly curious if other people actually ever saw it. I can make a pretty good wizard with good offensive spells using a combination of Conjuration, Illusion, and Transmutation. But just because it can be done, it doesnt mean it occurs very often. I just happened to notice a trend of Necromancy, Illusion, and Enchantment being given up the most. Just was wondering if other people actually saw other schools get taken out. The wizards in my campaign mainly focus on battle magic, so I can see how my group may be a little different. But a few other times I've seen people on the boards talk, it kind of seemed they did the same thing with Necromancy and Enchantment gone a lot. I think the most popular schools to get rid of go in this order: Enchantment/Necromancy, Illusion, Abjuration, Conjuration, Transmutation, Evocation. Of course this is my opinion. Sorry, but i have never seen anyone give up Enchantment in my game, and Illusion is, for my game so far, the most popular spell-give-up choice. Of course, for me Necromancy is second place most commonly lost.
#19 darthsylver Dec 31, 2004 16:13:20	Originally posted by True Blue As I said before, I think if I ever played a wizard I would ban Evocation, and focus on Conjuration and some Transmutation. But I doubt that will happen seeing as how I DM. Why? Make one of your NPC villians an Illusionist or Diviner. Diviners make excellent villains as they can figure out a PC's moves three or four moves ahead of the PC (if they are a good Diviner). An Illusionist could seriously cause the PC to head in the wrong direction when looking for him or even fool the PC into thinking he was a different kind of wizard. Imagine if you will a PC party planning on assaulting a necromancer's lair only to find out they have the wrong protections. It would be a hoot. Especially if there was a programmed image at the end to fool the PC's into thinking that the Illusionist is still alive or even that the Illusionist is not the real villian. :D :D