Psionic Monk
Psionic monks are students of martial arts, combining physical training with psionic power to impressive results. In a psionic world in which metal is scarce, psionically enhanced unarmed combat has evolved naturally. Psionic martial art training is rigorous and painful, requiring discipline and high tolerance of pain. Some psionic monks practice their art on their own, while others seek small cults and monasteries for tutoring. While not in great numbers, psionic monks can be found in a wide range of athasian cultures, ranging from the city of Ur Draxa to the convents of the Villichi. Their backgrounds may be diverse, but all psionic monks base their skills on a fundamental talent with the Way.
Psionic monks can be of any race or class, though many have levels in melee oriented classes such as fighter, gladiator and psychic warrior. Psionic monks are living weapons and highly sought bodyguards and mercenaries, and gladiator matches involving psionic monks are always attractive.
Psionic monks can be found in most city states, practicing their arts, seeking employment or serving as mercenaries. Some psionic monks seek solitude from the rest of the world and find it in secluded locations, perfecting their art in convents, shrines or caves to name a few places.
Hit Die: d8
L BAB Fort Ref Wi Special; Unarmed damage; Unarmored speed bonus
1st +0 +2 +2 +2 Flurry of blows, skill boost +10; 1d6; +0 ft.
2nd +1 +3 +3 +3 Evasion, unlock feat; 1d6; +0 ft.
3rd +2 +3 +3 +3 Sundering blow; 1d8; +10 ft.
4th +3 +4 +4 +4 Wholeness of body; 1d8; +10 ft.
5th +3 +4 +4 +4 Leap attack, skill boost +20; 1d8; +10 ft.
6th +4 +5 +5 +5 Unlock feat; 1d10; +20 ft.
7th +5 +5 +5 +5 Improved evasion; 1d10; +20 ft.
8th +6 +6 +6 +6 Sundering flurry of blows; 1d10; +20 ft.
9th +6 +6 +6 +6 Retaliation, skill boost +30; 2d6; +30 ft.
10th +7 +7 +7 +7 Unlock feat; 2d6; +30 ft.
Requirements
To qualify to become a psionic monk, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Concentration 2 ranks, Jump 7 ranks.
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Psionic Fist.
Psionics: Must have a power point reserve.
Class Skills:
The psionic monk’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Psionics), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class features
Weapon and Armor proficiencies: Psionic monks gain no proficiency in any additional weapons or armor.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a psionic monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but all attacks made that round take a -2 penalty. At 5th level the penalty is -1, and at 9th level it disappears. This ability is exactly like the monk’s ability of the same name in the 3.5 Player’s Handbook.
Skill Boost (Su): The psionic monk can expend her psionic focus to gain a +10 bonus to a Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump or Tumble skill check. This bonus increases to +20 at 5th level and +30 at 9th level. You must decide whether or not to use skill boost prior to making a skill check. If the check fails, you still expend your psionic focus.
Unlock Feat: The psionic monk unlocks more of her potential. She gains a bonus feat from the following list: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Expertise, Greater Psionic Fist, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Rapid Metabolism, Stand Still, Stunning Fist, Up the Walls. A psionic monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Evasion (Ex): A psionic monk of 2nd level or higher can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a psionic monk is wearing light armor or no armor.
Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a psionic monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown in the class progression table. A psionic monk in armor (even light armor) or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
Sundering Blow (Su): When making an attack, the psionic monk can expend her psionic focus to overcome physical resistance. A single attack ignores damage reduction and hardness. You must decide whether or not to use sundering blow prior to making an attack. If the attack fails, you still expend your psionic focus.
Wholeness of Body (Su): The psionic monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her psionic monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.
Leap Attack (Ex): The psionic monk can leap at an opponent at the end of a charge to add additional momentum to the attack. She inflicts an additional 2d6 points of damage on a succesful charge attack.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the psionic monk still takes no damage on a successful Reflex save against attacks such as a fireball, she takes only half damage on a failed save.
Sundering Flurry of Blows (Su): When making a flurry of blows, the psionic monk can expend her psionic focus to overcome physical resistance. All attacks in one flurry of blows ignore damage reduction and hardness. You must decide whether or not to use sundering flurry of blows prior to making an attack roll. If the attack fails, you still expend your psionic focus.
Retaliation (Su): As a reaction, the psionic monk can expend her psionic focus to gain an attack of opportunity against an opponent who just hit her with a succesful melee or melee touch attack. This attack of opportunity counts against the psionic monk’s normally allowed amount of attacks of opportunity. Retaliation cannot be used if the psionic monk is flatfooted or denied her Dexterity bonus to AC. If the attack of opportunity fails, you still expend your psionic focus.
Skill Boost (Su): The psionic monk can expend her psionic focus to gain a +10 bonus to a Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump or Tumble skill check. This bonus increases to +20 at 5th level and +30 at 9th level. You must decide whether or not to use skill boost prior to making a skill check. If the check fails, you still expend your psionic focus.
I like this ability. Very cool.
I still want a 20 level core class though.
In darksun, monks would be few and far between, but several different orders of Unarmed combat schools. each school offers different feat selections. create 4 or 5 different schools each with a different style. a player chooses a school at 1st level. As the player levels they access the abilities of the schools. Loose the supernatual abilities of the higher levels in exchange for Tradition secrets-some would offer the abilities back as trained abilties instead of supernatual abilities, others would offer different and equally powerful talents.
One school would offer training in the way, and instead of feats and tradition secrets they'd be offered a small list of psionic powers as they level.
In darksun, monks would be few and far between, but several different orders of Unarmed combat schools. each school offers different feat selections. create 4 or 5 different schools each with a different style. a player chooses a school at 1st level. As the player levels they access the abilities of the schools. Loose the supernatual abilities of the higher levels in exchange for Tradition secrets-some would offer the abilities back as trained abilties instead of supernatual abilities, others would offer different and equally powerful talents.
One school would offer training in the way, and instead of feats and tradition secrets they'd be offered a small list of psionic powers as they level.
I was planning on doing something similar to this in my Villichi project, but wouldn't mind seeing it more of a core thing.
In darksun, monks would be few and far between....
Thats why it should stay a PrC. If they aren't common it wouldn't warrent a full 20 level core class progression.
In darksun, monks would be few and far between, but several different orders of Unarmed combat schools. each school offers different feat selections. create 4 or 5 different schools each with a different style. a player chooses a school at 1st level.
There are alternative monk fighting styles on page 42 of Dragon Magazine #310, and Dragon Magazine #308 page 63 has a bunch of what they call Paths of Enlightenment for psions: those require to have a discipline and a bunch of feats, and grant special abilities. Very cool.
Thats why it should stay a PrC. If they aren't common it wouldn't warrent a full 20 level core class progression.
I disagree that they should be far and few between if that wasn't clear, otherwise Sysane is right, they would be a PrC.
However, I think they are and should be common enough to warrant a full fledged 20th level class.
However, I think they are and should be common enough to warrant a full fledged 20th level class.
I don't think they would be all that common. I'd think that it was a PrC geared towards a psychic warrior build. But hey, thats just me. ;)
Also don't forget the topic with soulknives: monks and soulknives has a big advantage over other, more equipment-dependent classes on Athas. Having the monk a PrC with only ten level (and therefore abit toned down abilities compared to the core class monk) is good to preserve game balance.
Congrats Jon, excellent work, I will use it as you wrote here, 100% fit into my toughts about Athasian monks.
In darksun, monks would be few and far between, but several different orders of Unarmed combat schools. each school offers different feat selections. create 4 or 5 different schools each with a different style. a player chooses a school at 1st level.
All you say here support one or more prestige classes, not a core class. Monks would be rare. For concepts that are small in numbers, prestige classes are the intended route to go.
The different orders can easily be represented through a different feat set for each order if you want to take that twist. I'll leave that to the individual DM, though. All you have to do is group the feats available through Unlock Feat and presto, there you are. Alternatively, write separate prestige classes for separate orders. Alternatively one prestige class with "open" class features such as the tattooed monk. Those are the precedented methods for handling more than two feat paths (i.e. ranger). A core class simply does not warrant what you describe IMO.
Congrats Jon, excellent work, I will use it as you wrote here, 100% fit into my toughts about Athasian monks.
Thanks. And let's face it - the prestige class route for the monk is a solution where those adamantly in favor of the athasian monk and against the monk can meet. It is an option invented for mutual gain.
1.the core monk class as a PrC
2.A varient that develops powers off of the psyker warrior power tree
3.an unpowered psi class that manifests a meleeweapon; the soulknife PrC from the 1st psionics book
4. your psi-monk PrC
for these classes be sure to design them solely for Athas. lower the prerequisutes. Add the option of the Schools; 6 schools of MA training each offering a training style and different bonuses.
It's the sort of thing seen in the real world. A certain style offers adnavtages others do not, each is powerful but focuses a particular point. Various special abilities/bonus feats at certain Character levels instead of class levels. As long as you meat a certain prerequiste you constantly learn from the school even if you do not learn from the class. this a Wizard with a level in any combat style could begin learning from the school, it would look good for the stoy as well. as you could easily see students at the school bing noncombat, they learn the tricks but focus instead on their magic...
Also don't forget the topic with soulknives: monks and soulknives has a big advantage over other, more equipment-dependent classes on Athas. Having the monk a PrC with only ten level (and therefore abit toned down abilities compared to the core class monk) is good to preserve game balance.
With the way I am running my campaign, you would be correct. But just because it's low magic doesn't mean there aren't that much more psionic items out there, so this argument doesn't float with me.
Go to the official rules if you don't believe me, they back me up...
About jesterjeff's (first) suggestion:
This somewhat similar to how the Ranger is handled in 3.5e, so there is a very official precedent already. However, I'd prefer PrCs for each one of these groups, instead.
About the PsiMonk as a PrC:
A PrC means that PCs and NPCs will only have Monk-like features after the fifth level or so. (This especially hurts the Villich, since they are ECL+2.) Since, to my mind, most of those Eldaarican villagers are actually level 1 (or 2) Monks, about half of the people this PrC is meant for won't have levels in it. Also, Monks (PCs or NPCs) with psionics background (Villichi, Nibenese, Raamish) will be stuck with manifester level 5 for the next 10 levels or so. That's horrible. And, if the Monk is already a PrC, most likely there won't be specific PrCs for, say, a Eldaarican Peddler, or a Keshai Master, or a Villichi Master of the Fist, or whatever. That saddens me.
On the other hand, I acknowledge that most DS gamers don't really care for the Eldaarish, the Draxans or the Villichi. Most people's campaigns don't include such exotic characters, or only include them rarely.
Now, back to the topic...
About Jon's PsiMonk PrC:
Cool features! I actually made something similar to your Retaliation feature for a Draxan PrC I'm developing. Except it was supposed to work after a failed attack against the character, and I was going to call it Riposte, or something.
Thanks. And let's face it - the prestige class route for the monk is a solution where those adamantly in favor of the athasian monk and against the monk can meet. It is an option invented for mutual gain.
Agreed there, I would still like to see a core class, and don't get the opposite's stance, and probably never will, but oh well.
I can come to a compromise on the PrC if it's all or nothing.
Let me reiterate what I have written in the Soulknife thread. If, indeed, many of the Draxans and most of the eldaarican villagers are actually of the Monk class, there might be thousands of PsiMonks in DS. So I don't think that Monks are really few.
NPCs in general belong to NPC classes. Monk is not an NPC class. They could be warriors with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and Improved Grapple. Only the most accomplished take levels in the prestige class.
Monks may be hard to find, though. Outside of Ur-Draxa and Eldaarich, cities that are both hard to reach and hard to leave, there are the Villichi, the Nibenay monasteries and, maybe, some Raamish mystics. (Many of the Asian martial arts actually originated in India.) Not a whole lot of people.
Exactly, not a whole lot of people. Also, there is no evidence of the nibenese and raamite monasteries being oriented towards physical offense. How violent does "Path of the Serene Bliss" sound to you (one of two nibenese monk orders)? The psionic schools and monasteries of Raam are oriented towards research, one even explicitly states they research telepathy. Nothing physical combat oriented as far as that goes. That means even less combat oriented "monks"! Thus a prestige class for those (possibly few) combat oriented ones is the way to go IMO.
Also, Monks (PCs or NPCs) with psionics background (Villichi, Nibenese, Raamish) will be stuck with manifester level 5 for the next 10 levels or so.
The same would happen if psionic characters took levels in a monk core class. They'd be stuck with the same manifester level for not 10 but 20 levels. All that is required by the psionic monk prestige class is a wild talent feat.
Agreed there, I would still like to see a core class, and don't get the opposite's stance, and probably never will, but oh well.
I can come to a compromise on the PrC if it's all or nothing.
Trust me, I was adamantly against the monk, but saw there was a niche that could be filled by a prestige class. Call it a concession. Nice to get one in return.
Trust me, I was adamantly against the monk,
Yeah, I remember that.
Nice to know that a little time can change one's mind.
but saw there was a niche that could be filled by a prestige class. Call it a concession. Nice to get one in return.
I'm willing to concede and just have the PrC, besides, it might work better with what I have planned for the Villichi project, who knows, won't be starting that till I'm done with life shapped stuff anyways.
At the same time there is president for training unarmed combatants, using the fighter, brute, ranger or gladiator class these combatants are hardly effective, but add a true Unarmed Class and there's a change. In the setting itself these weaponless warriors would be highly respected and feared. Trained as bodyguards and assassins by the citystates and/or secondary sources.
The best bet all around would be to design an unarmed Martial artist class based on the advanced class of the D20 modern including replacing the unarmed attack feat of 3.5 with the MA feats of D20 modern.
This adds the abilities and stating and gives you total freedom to design the story behind each C.
NPCs in general belong to NPC classes. Monk is not an NPC class. They could be warriors with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and Improved Grapple. Only the most accomplished take levels in the prestige class.
Actually, I had thought of this possibility before (NPCs as Warriors, instead of Monks). But the Warrior NPC class offers no bonus feats and has bad Reflex and Will saving throws, so it is not well suited for making such NPCs. Also the percentage of NPCs with NPC classes is not the same in DS as in other settings. For instance, there are no NPC spellcasting classes, so every NPC spellcaster has PC class levels. There are no psionic NPC class (Pennarin's aside), and lots of psionic NPCs. Etc.. Lastly, after reading Wisdom of Terror, I felt that those Eldaarican villagers are not average NPCs; they're really tough and well trained, so a PC class works better for them IMHO.
Also, there is no evidence of the nibenese and raamite monasteries being oriented towards physical offense. How violent does "Path of the Serene Bliss" sound to you (one of two nibenese monk orders)?
Well, I'm a practitioner (a clumsy amateur, actually) of a martial art called Choy Lay Fut (a Kung-Fu style); I've been told that the name may be translated as "Choy and Lay, both Buddhas". Not very violent-sounding either. On the wall of the training building there is a note: Kung Fu, the Art of War that Seeks Peace". I've heard that Ju-Jitsu was born in India, created by monks that vowed not to spill blood, but had to defend themselves during their travels. Many martial arts look, sound or act deceptively peaceful even if they are actually quite deadly. The Eastern way isn't always straightforward.
(There is an Athasian precedent, also: Cuurnu from Wisdom of the Drylanders means Serenity.)
But you are right, ultimately. The only reference to Nibenese martial artists in a book is a short suggestion to giving some monks unarmed combat skills as an alternate rule.
The same would happen if psionic characters took levels in a monk core class. They'd be stuck with the same manifester level for not 10 but 20 levels.
Yes, but what you describe is an option players with psionic characters have. Should the Monk be a PrC, a player who wants a Monk may well have no option but take levels in Psychic Warrior, depending on her character's background.
1st thing we need to do is stop referring to the class in debate as monk
I only did it for convenience. Aside from the Villichi (nuns) and maybe the Nibenese, you are right.
Trust me, I was adamantly against the monk, but saw there was a niche that could be filled by a prestige class. Call it a concession. Nice to get one in return.
Please, do not misunderstand me. Should the Monk as a core class prove impossible, I can live with a PrC or even a houserule class. It's just that, if there is enough to talk about the Soulknife making it to core, then I definitely think there's more than enough to talk about the Monk. I guess I got a little carried away; It was not my intention to be a pain in the neck.
Also the percentage of NPCs with NPC classes is not the same in DS as in other settings. For instance, there are no NPC spellcasting classes, so every NPC spellcaster has PC class levels. There are no psionic NPC class (Pennarin's aside), and lots of psionic NPCs. Etc..
Settings like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk actually only have a fighter-type and a divine caster-type NPC class. There are no rogue or ranger or barbarian-type NPC classes.
DS has the same fighter-type NPC class. The divine caster-type is a bit weird, but a small paragraph in DS3 saying how to adapt it to DS might do the trick. (There are issues concerning the elements)
Eberron has an arcane caster-type NPC class. Can it be adapted, or imported wholesale, to DS? Unknown.
No setting has a manifester-type NPC class, not even Eberron, the only setting that currently integrates some psionics.
So in the end we're only 1 NPC class off of the 2 thats mentionned above. With minor DS3 modifications, we could have both. If DS3 adopts a manifester-type NPC class, then we end up with 1 NPC class beyond those availlable to other settings.
The divine caster-type is a bit weird, but a small paragraph in DS3 saying how to adapt it to DS might do the trick. (There are issues concerning the elements)
Ever since athas.org decided using the 3.5e Ranger, reasoning their spells came from minor Spirits of the Land, I've been thinking about the adept. The flavor text of this NPC class fits the minor SotL as a glove IMHO.
I do prefer adepts as being connected to minor spirits of the land though. Especially since the fluff for adepts suggests they're practionners from wild communities, which on Athas means the wastes and the primitive tribes in them. Perfect for a NPC class with a link to the land.
With the way I am running my campaign, you would be correct. But just because it's low magic doesn't mean there aren't that much more psionic items out there, so this argument doesn't float with me.
Go to the official rules if you don't believe me, they back me up...
Okay, but -at least as I do- it doesn't mean that psionic items in DS as abundant as magic items in a normal world! It's not simply a switch between magical and psionic items, the amount is lower even then!
As I do -really my 0.2 cent only- is that if the players found a "simple" item, like a ring of prot +1, +1 weapon or armor, everburning torches, etc. it's psionic item, not magical. If I want to give them really magical items, they are the more powerful types: +2 keen flame blade and stuff like that. It's not in the rules, but it keeps the feeling better IMHO.
And even with that I don't populate the character's inventory with psionic items as the DMG suggests with magic items on Greyhawk. Their first +1 (psionic) wepon can come no lower than 6-7th level, and there is only one for the party. At this time they probably has one +1 armor, and some minor trinket as well, but I'm not just switching all magic items into psionic items, and then giving them to the players at the rate it is suggested in the DMG!
Okay, but -at least as I do- it doesn't mean that psionic items in DS as abundant as magic items in a normal world! It's not simply a switch between magical and psionic items, the amount is lower even then!
Again, that's YOUR rules, not official rules.
I'm talking about official rules here, they support me.
Again, argument doesn't float.
In any case, even if the official version uses DMG levels of wealth per level, a prestige class accounts for the de facto levels of wealth per level employed by many DMs, which is significantly lower than the DMG levels. I'm not saying this is something we must accomodate nor is it a pivotal argument in favor of a prestige class, but it is a nice side effect we get with the prestige class.
So in the end we're only 1 NPC class off of the 2 thats mentionned above. With minor DS3 modifications, we could have both. If DS3 adopts a manifester-type NPC class, then we end up with 1 NPC class beyond those availlable to other settings.
I think a manifester-level NPC class would be pretty straight forward to make up. Start with Psychic Warrior. Remove any bonus feats. Switch their good save to Will instead of Reflex. Give them access to the Psion/Wilder list instead of the Psychic Warrior list. Switch their HD to d6 (probably). Let them pick a specialty discipline like Psions do (maybe).
I think this class would allow you to have NPC's who obviously specialize in psionics but aren't as good as real psions. They partially make up for this deficiency with a higher BAB, but that only goes so far. It may be a little too underpowered, but it gets the job done.
Scroll down until you read Psionicist...
Its a simple conversion of the adept/magewright into powers and PPs. If you convert the # of spells into PPs, you get the figures in that build, meaning the NPC manifesting class has the same power level as the adept and magewright.
Again, that's YOUR rules, not official rules.
I'm talking about official rules here, they support me.
Again, argument doesn't float.
Well, there are also official rules how the wizards cast their spells, what gods can be choosen for clerics to follow, what spells and powers they give, etc.
All of them is rewritten by the Dark Sun setting.
It's true, that there is no new rule for the chance to get magic/psionic item on the poor world of Athas. But as the setting description continously emphasises this attribute of the world there should be.
If you said: "there is no rule!", I ask: "why doesn't when it should be?"
But anyway: rules like laws. They are only as good as the people who implement them. I don't use the DMG suggested treasure base even in regular D&D campaigns, as it a bit too much for my (and my players') taste. Rules can be stepped over.
However it's a common agreement that Athas is poorer than the regular worlds, not a personal taste.
"why doesn't when it should be?"
Read the DS FAQ on athas.org ;)
Well, there are also official rules how the wizards cast their spells, what gods can be choosen for clerics to follow, what spells and powers they give, etc.
All of them is rewritten by the Dark Sun setting.
This argument is pretty moot and you're totally not even listening to my side of it.
I'm talking about Dark Sun 3.5 not D&D 3.5, there is a difference.
Clearly in those rules, as well as being mentioned many o time by the designers of the rules and is probably also in the faq, that yes Athas is indeed a low magic item world, but that doesn't mean you can substitute that with psionic items. That's the suggested means around it.
Not saying I run it like that, or that everyone should. All I am saying is that the official rules for Dark Sun 3.5 back me up in the regard that there is a substitute for there being a low amount of magic items on Athas, and that trying to argue that any class that needs said items less than other classes doesn't hold water because there is an abundance of psionic items. Now if there were neither, then yes I would agree that there is a balance problem, but in this case there isn't because psionic items replace magic items.
So basically stop using the whole argument of monks, or whatever, can't be allowed in Dark Sun because they rely on equipment less than other classes and there is a shortage of said equipment, because there isn't any more of a shortage than other worlds have.
There are a hell of alot better arguments out there that I can agree with even if I do ignore them for my own campaign.
This argument is pretty moot and you're totally not even listening to my side of it.
Hey, I'm sorry man if I get on your nerves. It's not my goal. I just try to show you the background of my opinion, too.
If you remember, we had the same over the -well, let's say classical- "defilers should be more powerful" topic. Now I'm an adamant supporter of the athas.org system on this matter. You can convince me. And I'm happy if you show me where I'm wrong.
I'm talking about Dark Sun 3.5 not D&D 3.5, there is a difference.
Clearly in those rules, as well as being mentioned many o time by the designers of the rules and is probably also in the faq, that yes Athas is indeed a low magic item world, but that doesn't mean you can substitute that with psionic items. That's the suggested means around it.
I suppose you wanted to write: "but that doesn't mean you can't substitute that with psionic items."
Yes, you can substitute, but possibly not on one-on-one level. Due to the psionic-magic transparency, a psionic +1 sword is the same as a magical +1 sword. And almost all magic item can be made in a psionic version. If you substitute on a one-on-one basis than you don't get a low magic world. The characters would get the same type of equipment like Greyhawk character of the same level, just every stuff would get the "psionic" prefix to its name. Their power due to their equipment would be almost the same. I think it's not the general idea about Athas. And checking and comparing the equipment of the NPCs in the athas.org modules to a same level NPC from DMG I think it's not yours.
Low magic is a bit wrong and misleading term here, as DMG doesn't include the psionic items. Maybe "low equipment" is a better term, as it is equally restrictive on psionic items.
Not saying I run it like that, or that everyone should. All I am saying is that the official rules for Dark Sun 3.5 back me up in the regard that there is a substitute for there being a low amount of magic items on Athas, and that trying to argue that any class that needs said items less than other classes doesn't hold water because there is an abundance of psionic items. Now if there were neither, then yes I would agree that there is a balance problem, but in this case there isn't because psionic items replace magic items.
So basically stop using the whole argument of monks, or whatever, can't be allowed in Dark Sun because they rely on equipment less than other classes and there is a shortage of said equipment, because there isn't any more of a shortage than other worlds have.
Well, here we see thing different, but what the hell. Diversification makes the world interesting.
All I said is that I'm happy that the monk was made as a readily available PrC instead of a base class. It has rule/balance reasons (what we discussed here above) and has flavour/setting reasons as well for this to be the best solution IMHO.
There are a hell of alot better arguments out there that I can agree with even if I do ignore them for my own campaign.
Well, it seems this year I won't have the Academy Award for the Best Argument... Again... I give up. :surrender
Read the DS FAQ on athas.org ;)
It was only a rhetorical question from my part.
Okay, but -at least as I do- it doesn't mean that psionic items in DS as abundant as magic items in a normal world! It's not simply a switch between magical and psionic items, the amount is lower even then!
As I do -really my 0.2 cent only- is that if the players found a "simple" item, like a ring of prot +1, +1 weapon or armor, everburning torches, etc. it's psionic item, not magical. If I want to give them really magical items, they are the more powerful types: +2 keen flame blade and stuff like that. It's not in the rules, but it keeps the feeling better IMHO.
And even with that I don't populate the character's inventory with psionic items as the DMG suggests with magic items on Greyhawk. Their first +1 (psionic) wepon can come no lower than 6-7th level, and there is only one for the party. At this time they probably has one +1 armor, and some minor trinket as well, but I'm not just switching all magic items into psionic items, and then giving them to the players at the rate it is suggested in the DMG!
And that is the great liberty in DMing your own campaign!
The prestige class is available to a level 4 Monk or Fighter. At that level:
a Fighter(Human) will have 5 feats(1 Starting, 1 Human, 3 Fighter)
a Fighter(Demi-Human), 4 feats
a Monk(Human) will have 4 feats(1 Starting, 1 Human, 2 Monk)
a Monk(Demi-Human) will have 3 feats.
A 1st level Monks get access to the Improved Unarmed Strike anyhow, so the requirement is sorta a dud. A fighter will have to burn a feat to acquire this.
Neither of them have access to the Psionic Fist feat through their class abilities so, they'll either have to spend their 1st level bonus feat on it or their 3rd level bonus feat. Humans have it a little easier and a little more leeway, by gaining 2 feats instead of 1 at character creation.
The other odd thing is the requirement for Psionic Power Points. This would require either a level in a Psion/Psychic Warrior/Soulknife/Wilder class or access to the feat: Wild Talent.
Why it isn't listed as a Prerequisite and instead as having access to a Power Point is beyond me.
IMHO the requirements are a bit screwy and require some minor fixing. Will get to that later(Possibly not this post)
Next up BAB/Saves:
Obviously the BAB's and Saves were copied from the Monks table. As such the Fighter looses out BAB-wise, but gains in the Saves and the Monk itself takes a minor setback BAB but also gains in the Saves.
A 4th level/1st level Fighter/Psionic Monk would have a BAB of: +4
A 4th level/1st level Fighter/Psionic Monk would have the Fort/Ref/Will saves of: +6/+3/+3
A 5th level Fighter would have a BAB of: +5
A 5th level Fighter would have the Fort/Ref/Will saves of: +4/+1/+1
A 4th level/1st level Monk/Psionic Monk would have a BAB of: +3
A 4th level/1st level Monk/Psionic Monk would have the Fort/Ref/Will saves of: +6/+6/+6
A 5th level Monk would have a BAB of: +3
A 5th level Monk would have the Fort/Ref/Will saves of: +4/+4/+4
As such the Prestige class wins. Which sorta is the point when creating PrC's.
Then we get to the skills:
A Fighter has 7 class-skills
A Monk has 18 class-skills
The Psionic Monk PrC has 15 class-skills
All in all, nothing wrong there and there's a nice overlap between the Fighter-Psionic Monk-Monk skit. The Monk looses some skills but gains others, similar for the Fighter(Who admitedly gets more out of this then the Monk)
Finally we settle on level-dependent abilities:
The no-additional weapon/armour proficiency might be a set back to classes such as the Rogue, the Arcane casters or the Psion, who have little in the way of Weapon/Armour proficiency anyway. Honestly, since we're going for a simulated monk, maybe granting them the Monk Weapon/Armour proficiencies might be an option.
The Flurry of Blows...eah. As a Monk you already have that ability and as a Fighter you gain something. Whooptido! Nothing wrong with it. We're going for a Monk PrC remember?
Then we get the Skillboost at 1st level of all things. At 5th level if we assume maxed out ranks a +10 to use a selected number of skills is a SERIOUS bonus. Heck even the +20 at 5th level is an almost guarnteed success for the DC's at those levels. You really want a 5th level character to be able to jump that 100ft. wide gorge from a standing position? Personally speaking, I'd like it to be a challenge. Even with a PrC.
The Unlock Feat seems to be continuation of the Fighters Bonus Feats. Even a regular monk has to choose between two options at fixed levels. Why you'd create a monk with Fighter feats, is a mystery.
No hassles with the Evasion or Fast Movement. Again we're attempting to create a Monk PrC.
Purely speaking from a Monks perspective at level 8 I have the option of breaking weapons or be Immune vs. Disease and I could heal myself. I don't know. Tough choice man, tough choice...:P
Ofcourse I could simply wait an extra level for that Wholeness of Body ability.
The leap attack is nice. I like it. It's a bit Combat Oriented, and considering the normal monks abilities at 10th level, it's even weak to extremely weak.
I can get Improved Evasion as a level 9 Monk. Why would I wait until level 11 to get it?
The Sundering Flurry of Blows is eah...too weak in all honesty. It sounds cool, but does little other then break items. Considering most items on Athas are either made of bone, stone or wood, and are thus guaranteed to break at some point, its a weird ability to get at such a high level.
The Retaliation's a basic bust. Not useable anytime she'd loose her Dex Bonus to AC, so anyone who isn't directly in front of her is immune to this ability. Considering its potential I'd recommend it affects anyone who attacks her in such a way that would normally warrant a Dex loss.
I forewent the fighter part vs. the PrC as should be obvious, but it's 0.05 AM and I'm beat.
G'night all!
Just to make sure.
Just let me have my fun. 'kay? :P
Why it isn't listed as a Prerequisite and instead as having access to a Power Point is beyond me.
I'll give you two good reasons for not making Wild Talent a prerequisite:
1) The class is primarily a psychic warrior build. A psychic warrior shouldn't have to take Wild Talent to qualify for the class.
2) Wild Talent has a more powerful alternative (which unfortunately isn't OGC despite being in the XPH), Hidden Talent. By restricting the prerequisite to Wild Talent, you are penalized for taking Hidden Talent.
Neither of them have access to the Psionic Fist feat through their class abilities so, they'll either have to spend their 1st level bonus feat on it or their 3rd level bonus feat. Humans have it a little easier and a little more leeway, by gaining 2 feats instead of 1 at character creation.
You seem to have missed the fact that Psionic Fist is a Psionic feat that requires you to expend your psionic focus. You need a power point to focus, which you could get through Wild Talent, Hidden Talent or taking levels in a psionic class. So you'd have to spend 2 feats to get Psionic Fist unless you have levels in a psionic class.
Then we get the Skillboost at 1st level of all things. At 5th level if we assume maxed out ranks a +10 to use a selected number of skills is a SERIOUS bonus. Heck even the +20 at 5th level is an almost guarnteed success for the DC's at those levels. You really want a 5th level character to be able to jump that 100ft. wide gorge from a standing position? Personally speaking, I'd like it to be a challenge. Even with a PrC.
Some Rokugan/Oriental Adventures prestige classes get a +30 bonus without the requirement of expending your psionic focus. In other words there is precedence.
The Sundering Flurry of Blows is eah...too weak in all honesty. It sounds cool, but does little other then break items. Considering most items on Athas are either made of bone, stone or wood, and are thus guaranteed to break at some point, its a weird ability to get at such a high level.
Did you catch the part about ignoring *damage reduction*? It's a carte blanche against any foe with DR.
The Unlock Feat seems to be continuation of the Fighters Bonus Feats. Even a regular monk has to choose between two options at fixed levels. Why you'd create a monk with Fighter feats, is a mystery.
The concept of restricting bonus feats to a limited list of feats is not uncommon, for instance a wizard's bonus feats. The core class monk has a unique approach to this, however - it gives two feat choices and *ignores* prerequisites. I've simply expanded the list of available feats from two to a larger number. If you check again, you'll note that Rapid Metabolism and Up the Walls are *not* on the Fighter bonus feat list, so your statement about Fighter feats is flawed, unless of course you are saying that any feat on the Fighter bonus feat list available to a prestige class is a mystery. :P
The Retaliation's a basic bust. Not useable anytime she'd loose her Dex Bonus to AC, so anyone who isn't directly in front of her is immune to this ability. Considering its potential I'd recommend it affects anyone who attacks her in such a way that would normally warrant a Dex loss.
Since when did a Dex bonus only apply to attacks made by a creature directly in front of you?
To have "psi-monks universities" under the crimson sun do not fit because many political and economical challenges.
How they would deal with city states?
The universities would be client of a single city-state?
And the problems that bandit tribes?
I see that such universities must be well hidden, like the psionic one, or they will fade away. So, how a 1st level PC [weak] would find them, or why he would be inveted by the them?
But, to pass the secret of the psi-monk in a master-disciple way fit perfectly in my dark sun vision.
Since when did a Dex bonus only apply to attacks made by a creature directly in front of you?
I read it somewhere in the v3.5 Player's Handbook. Granted I scanned it, rather then go into a detailed reading of the passage, so there is the off chance of misinterpretation on my behalf.
But I believe, for instance, you loose your dexterity bonus if someone attacks you from behind. Not too sure about the flanks, but I think they weren't mentioned or something to that accord.
Don't get me wrong, I like the prestige class, it's just that I would shuffle the abilities around abit and tone one or two down(The +10/+20/+30 vs. Skills comes to mind), and raise the power of a few others(i.e. Retaliation.)
From official sources:
Ur-Draxa
(Quoting from Valley of Dust and Fire)
“Keshai - The Draxan martial art of throws and strikes, taught to all young Draxans. Some Draxans continue to study keshai throughout their lives.”
Most Draxan Psionic Monks are trained within clan compounds, I suspect. It’s likely that each clan has a separate building for combat practice – which would include instruction in unarmed techniques.
Nibenay
(From Veiled Alliance)
(On Nibenese Monks) “They grow food, study rigorously, and meditate. In fact, their regimen resembles that of a dedicated psionicist, though the monks gain no powers. (Optionally, you may allow monks to train in unarmed combat.)”
(Also from VA)
“At some point in his or her life, each Nibenese child spends two 15-day weeks living as a monk. Male and female monks stay in separate monasteries at opposite ends of the city. Children of nobles, freemen, and slaves briefly mingle as equals, a phenomenon unique on Athas.”
Even though the unarmed combat thing is an optional rule, any Nibenese Monk – any Nibenese native actually (!) - is a potential Psionic Monk.
Eldaarich
There are several entries in Wisdom of the Drylanders related to Cuurnu, the Eldaarican martial art. Although not practiced on Eldaarich proper, WotD suggests that pretty much all the Eldaarican villagers (thousands of people) learn the basics of Cuurnu – they use it for defense, communication and as a means of holding onto sanity. Apparently, the villagers learn Cuurnu from their elders and from the peddlers (all masters of the art) that travel through those lands.
Non-official sources (i.e., people I believe could be Psionic Monks):
Villichi
The Sisters are prime candidates for Psionic Monks. Pretty much all Villichi-born are taken under the Sisterhoods wings for combat and psionics training (most before their teen years), though only Villichi are accepted into their convents. Although the Villichi are official, that many of them may be Psionic Monks (nuns?), is not. It makes a great deal of sense, though.
Raam
Given that Raam draws heavily from India as a source of inspiration, Psionic Monks may be part of that city’s psionic academies. Also, mendicant Psionic Monks (Fakirs?) and even entire neighborhoods practicing physical exercises and unarmed combat under Psionic Monk masters for spiritual purposes (Yoga, Kalari?) may be a real possibility.
Balic
Pankration (or Pancratium) was a Greek martial art of great popularity in the old Olympic Games. Some sources say that the Spartans in particular greatly enjoyed this martial art, and that it was practiced by many Greek warriors that fought under Alexander the Great. Pankration combined wrestling and boxing into a brutal sport - a modern form has been rejected at the 2004 Athens Olympics because of its excessive brutality, apparently. Pancratium made its way into Rome as well and was used in gladiatorial contests – contestants were often armed with spiked gloves. Despite being an European style, Pancratium was not deprived of mysticism – practitioners were said to be capable of performing superhuman feats, such as brick smashing and the ability to stand in one place (even on a slippery shield) while being pushed and jostled by several people.
It is entirely conceivable that Balican gladiators perform unarmed combat for the crowds, and that free citizens and Patricians practice unarmed techniques as sport; there could even be a Balican academy for such sports. Therefore, Psionic Monks may be actually quite common in Balic – and they would be characters heavily influenced by a Greco-Roman source, not an Asian one!
In my opinion, these are the best places for Psionic Monks, but there are many other possibilities. Given the oppression and the emphasis on psionics in the Last Sea’s area, and the fact that civilians are forbidden to carry weapons in the city, it might be possible that some Saragarians – particularly members of the Underground - may be Psionic Monks. It is entirely possible that some Blackspine Gith tribes have combined unarmed combat techniques with psionics, either for spiritual development or as an edge against rival tribes. Etc.
To have "psi-monks universities" under the crimson sun do not fit because many political and economical challenges.
How they would deal with city states?
The universities would be client of a single city-state?
And the problems that bandit tribes?
I see that such universities must be well hidden, like the psionic one, or they will fade away. So, how a 1st level PC [weak] would find them, or why he would be inveted by the them?
But, to pass the secret of the psi-monk in a master-disciple way fit perfectly in my dark sun vision.
I do not believe that all Athasian (Psionic) Monks come from remote monasteries. Actually, many Psionic Monks may not be monks at all, even though they share some Monk-like qualities – such as mastery of unarmed combat, physical and mental resilience, some underlying spirituality, etc. As is the case with many things Athasian, each region produces fairly different Psionic Monks; a Villichi Psionic Monk is very distinct from a Balican Psionic Monk, even though both share the same abilities! (Templars are another example of this: even though templars from all city-states share very similar powers and functions, an Urikite templar is entirely distinct from a Gulg, which has nothing to do with a Kurnan, etc.)
I believe they share this, however: most Psionic Monks-to-be are exposed to masters and training within their own communities. Most need not seek out a monastery halfway across the world – although a few might -, they have "easy" access to Psionic Monk training.
Indeed, a psionic variant of the Monk Core Class could easily be incorporated into Darksun. Both the Psychic Warrior and the Brute did not originally belong to Athas, but flavor texts were written to accommodate them. The same could be done to the Monk.
Actually, I’ve changed my mind: with just the right flavor text, Athasian (Psionic) Monks could well be made numerous, widespread and mainstream. They need not be all denizens of remote and out-of-reach places, with only occasional members present in the Tablelands.
I do realize that trying to get the Monk into the DS Core Classes is probably a lost battle, and I agree that compromise is much needed. But perhaps, once the Psionic Monk PrC reaches a stable form, a full optional (Psionic) Monk Class could be made (not necessarily by athas.org) for those of us that think that a full Class would be better? Just to clarify: an optional Class; I’m not suggesting it should make into the DS 3e document.
Don't know why someone thinks this is psychic warrior exclusive, all you need is a wild talent feat to get psionic fist.
Jon, by your own words the Psionic Monk is a Psychic Warrior build. Also, the other (main) options for pre-PrC Psionic Monks are the Gladiator and the Fighter. The Gladiator is a very specific Class which (except for Balicans) does not fit prospective psionic Monks. It is meant for gladiators; Draxan Keshai practitioners, Eldaarican villagers and Nibenese Monks are not gladiators. The Fighter, on the other hand, is a very open Class, and its bonus feats are somewhat useful for making characters with near Monk-like skills. However, it features low (reflex and will) saving throws, lacks skills such as Concentration and Tumble, and is generally not a great replacement for the Monk. The Psychic Warrior shares many of the same problems (such as low saving throws), but its saving graces are the powers and psionic feats. The Psychic Warrior is the prime choice (flavorwise and even ruleswise) for prospective Psionic Monks, despite even the fact that once a character starts taking Psionic Monk levels, he/she is stuck with a low manifester level for the foreseeable future.
I would still like to see a core psionic monk class, if I had a choice between it and a soulknife core class. Better yet that the soulknife be a PrC mainly taken by monks.
WotD suggests that pretty much all the Eldaarican villagers (thousands of people) learn the basics of Cuurnu
Do you rather mean citizens? Villagers excludes Eldaaricans per say...
Beautiful analysis!
I would still like to see a core psionic monk class, if I had a choice between it and a soulknife core class. Better yet that the soulknife be a PrC mainly taken by monks.
Thank you! And me too.
Do you rather mean citizens? Villagers excludes Eldaaricans per say...
No, Pennarin. Wisdom of the Drylanders states that besides the main city-state, Daskinor rules over dozens of small villages surrounding Eldaarich proper, and underneath it. These villages house about 100 each, and the villagers are forbidden to leave them. They are also forbidden to own weapons. The "Eldaarican" villagers use Cuurnu to defend themselves and to communicate with the peddlers - they've been isolated for so long that they speak unintelligible dialects of the original language.
I have found WotD somewhat diffucult to read, what with its heavy use of a weird font, and that some words are in capitals here but not there, etc...
My knowledge of that accessory is extremely limited.
I'll give you two good reasons for not making Wild Talent a prerequisite:
1) The class is primarily a psychic warrior build. A psychic warrior shouldn't have to take Wild Talent to qualify for the class.
2) Wild Talent has a more powerful alternative (which unfortunately isn't OGC despite being in the XPH), Hidden Talent. By restricting the prerequisite to Wild Talent, you are penalized for taking Hidden Talent.
Thanks. I did not know about the Hidden Talent feat, even though I did check the XPH when I wrote that.
You seem to have missed the fact that Psionic Fist is a Psionic feat that requires you to expend your psionic focus. You need a power point to focus, which you could get through Wild Talent, Hidden Talent or taking levels in a psionic class. So you'd have to spend 2 feats to get Psionic Fist unless you have levels in a psionic class.
Hehehe. Again, thank you for the corrections
Some Rokugan/Oriental Adventures prestige classes get a +30 bonus without the requirement of expending your psionic focus. In other words there is precedence.
Ah. I did not check the Oriental/Rokugan PrC's.
Did you catch the part about ignoring *damage reduction*? It's a carte blanche against any foe with DR.
Actually I missed it. It was late and I was tired...and felt like being a little annoying.
The concept of restricting bonus feats to a limited list of feats is not uncommon, for instance a wizard's bonus feats. The core class monk has a unique approach to this, however - it gives two feat choices and *ignores* prerequisites. I've simply expanded the list of available feats from two to a larger number. If you check again, you'll note that Rapid Metabolism and Up the Walls are *not* on the Fighter bonus feat list, so your statement about Fighter feats is flawed, unless of course you are saying that any feat on the Fighter bonus feat list available to a prestige class is a mystery. :P
From what little I recall, it was indeed the latter, that surprised me.
Like I said before, I like the prestige class, I just think the powerlevel as you gain levels is a bit unstable. Getting a huge bump in the beginning and then it sorta dies down, IMHO. As such, most of me is wondering why I would want to go through 10 levels of the class, if, IMO, most of the powers are given at
ADDED: Just a question, what were the minimal level requirements for those PrC's that gained +10/+20/+30 to their skill checks? Just curious.
Asrafiel's post raised the question of who exactly are the Psionic Monks of Athas and how are they trained.
From official sources:
Ur-Draxa
(Quoting from Valley of Dust and Fire)
“Keshai - The Draxan martial art of throws and strikes, taught to all young Draxans. Some Draxans continue to study keshai throughout their lives.”
Most Draxan Psionic Monks are trained within clan compounds, I suspect. It’s likely that each clan has a separate building for combat practice – which would include instruction in unarmed techniques.
Just because somebody is being tutored in martial arts and unarmed combat it doesn't mean that they neccessarily become monks! They simply get the improved unarmed fighting feat. If their lifestyle doesn't follow the 'monk way' they won't be monks. There is still several steps between 'not able to use his fists and legs to fight' and 'monk'. And being monk is much more than having good unarmed combat prowess.
Nibenay
(From Veiled Alliance)
(On Nibenese Monks) “They grow food, study rigorously, and meditate. In fact, their regimen resembles that of a dedicated psionicist, though the monks gain no powers. (Optionally, you may allow monks to train in unarmed combat.)”
This can qualify for monks, if they do it for years.
(Also from VA)
“At some point in his or her life, each Nibenese child spends two 15-day weeks living as a monk. Male and female monks stay in separate monasteries at opposite ends of the city. Children of nobles, freemen, and slaves briefly mingle as equals, a phenomenon unique on Athas.”
Even though the unarmed combat thing is an optional rule, any Nibenese Monk – any Nibenese native actually (!) - is a potential Psionic Monk.
Sorry, but short 30 days don't make a monk from anybody. It takes years, decades. And potential is not equal to realisation. That's why it's called potential.
Eldaarich
There are several entries in Wisdom of the Drylanders related to Cuurnu, the Eldaarican martial art. Although not practiced on Eldaarich proper, WotD suggests that pretty much all the Eldaarican villagers (thousands of people) learn the basics of Cuurnu – they use it for defense, communication and as a means of holding onto sanity. Apparently, the villagers learn Cuurnu from their elders and from the peddlers (all masters of the art) that travel through those lands.
This could be an acceptable source for psionic monks, mainly because of the background. It's very much ingrained in the culture. But even this won't produce a whole number of psionic monks. Warriors with improved unarmed fighting feat, yes. Monks, no.
Non-official sources (i.e., people I believe could be Psionic Monks):
Villichi
The Sisters are prime candidates for Psionic Monks. Pretty much all Villichi-born are taken under the Sisterhoods wings for combat and psionics training (most before their teen years), though only Villichi are accepted into their convents. Although the Villichi are official, that many of them may be Psionic Monks (nuns?), is not. It makes a great deal of sense, though.
Yes, villichi sisters are ok to be psionic monks IMHO.
Raam
Given that Raam draws heavily from India as a source of inspiration, Psionic Monks may be part of that city’s psionic academies. Also, mendicant Psionic Monks (Fakirs?) and even entire neighborhoods practicing physical exercises and unarmed combat under Psionic Monk masters for spiritual purposes (Yoga, Kalari?) may be a real possibility.
'Mind over body' like abilities can also sign psion class, and it's much more easy to get tutelage in that way (class) than in the monk way.
Balic
Pankration (or Pancratium) was a Greek martial art of great popularity in the old Olympic Games. Some sources say that the Spartans in particular greatly enjoyed this martial art, and that it was practiced by many Greek warriors that fought under Alexander the Great. Pankration combined wrestling and boxing into a brutal sport - a modern form has been rejected at the 2004 Athens Olympics because of its excessive brutality, apparently. Pancratium made its way into Rome as well and was used in gladiatorial contests – contestants were often armed with spiked gloves. Despite being an European style, Pancratium was not deprived of mysticism – practitioners were said to be capable of performing superhuman feats, such as brick smashing and the ability to stand in one place (even on a slippery shield) while being pushed and jostled by several people.
It is entirely conceivable that Balican gladiators perform unarmed combat for the crowds, and that free citizens and Patricians practice unarmed techniques as sport; there could even be a Balican academy for such sports. Therefore, Psionic Monks may be actually quite common in Balic – and they would be characters heavily influenced by a Greco-Roman source, not an Asian one!
Again, simply fighting unarmed doesn't mean that that person is a monk. Would you consider a wrestler as a monk? He fights professionally unarmed, but he is not a monk, right?
Trust me in that. I do aikido since 9 years, and even with that I'm not a monk.
Just because somebody is being tutored in martial arts and unarmed combat it doesn't mean that they neccessarily become monks!
I guess I should have been more careful with the wording. Sorry.
Actually, monks, as defined by dictionaries, are “members of monastic orders”. The Monk, as per PHB, is a Core Class meant for characters that have the uncanny ability to fight unarmed and unarmored, are able to perform superhuman feats through mystical powers, and usually are member of monastic orders. My posts actually referred to a third definition: Athasian characters (both PCs and NPCs) belonging either to the PrC (Psionic Monk) or to a possible full Character Class; my guidelines were basically Jon’s flavor text for his PrC:
Psionic Monk
Psionic monks are students of martial arts, combining physical training with psionic power to impressive results. In a psionic world in which metal is scarce, psionically enhanced unarmed combat has evolved naturally. Psionic martial art training is rigorous and painful, requiring discipline and high tolerance of pain. Some psionic monks practice their art on their own, while others seek small cults and monasteries for tutoring.
(Sorry if I’m being too bookish; no offense intended: just trying to clarify my statements.)
Any Nibenese Monk – any Nibenese native actually (!) - is a potential Psionic Monk.
Sorry, but short 30 days don't make a monk from anybody. It takes years, decades. And potential is not equal to realisation. That's why it's called potential.
The purpose of my post was to characterize the Psionic Monks; I was trying to establish who exactly were the people belonging to the PrC or who might belong to a full Psionic Monk Class, should one be made. I came up with several possible backgrounds for such characters; some were based on entirely official sources, others on reasonable reinterpretations of the setting. As such, my statement above was meant to provide DMs and players with a feasible explanation that might validate a character (PC or NPC) having at least one level of Psionic Monk if she/he is from Nibenay: the character spent a month in a monastery and was exposed to the basics of the art there!
In no way I’m claiming that all Nibenese should be Psionic Monks, what with their 30 days in the temple. I’m claiming that some might.
The history - and especially the myth – of martial arts is full of prodigies that became proficient with a style, and even eventually mastered it, after a short training period. Some were even reputedly able to learn a style after witnessing it being performed once! This may not be a totally realistic thing, but Darksun is supposed to be a fantasy setting, after all.
This could be an acceptable source for psionic monks, mainly because of the background.
Indeed. Karate was originally developed by Okinawan peasants that were forbidden to carry weapons. In order to fight samurais, they resorted to farming tools and empty hands. That sounds remarkably like what the Eldaarican villagers have done.
But even this won't produce a whole number of psionic monks. Warriors with improved unarmed fighting feat, yes. Monks, no.
Again, my point was to present another possible background for a Psionic Monk character: she/he came from an Eldaarican village.
Still, I do believe that Psionic Monks are numerous in the villages. Those people depend on Cuurnu to survive. They depend on it to communicate and to maintain sanity. They train constantly and determinedly. In real life, these are circumstances that produce deadly martial artists in numbers. In Brazil, for example, some slaves of African descent developed an acrobatic martial art called capoeira. They practiced it openly, under the guise of dancing. Given the extreme conditions under which those slaves lived, I would bet they were a mach to the monks of Shaolin-su. Or, at least, that many of them would be.
Also, as I stated in another thread, “Stats (Class and Level) of the Athasian population”, I believe NPCs of PC Classes are much more frequent in DarkSun than in other D&D settings.
Finally, the Warrior NPC Class is a horrible substitute for the Monk. It features lousy Reflex and Will saving throws, lousy skill selection and, worst of all, no bonus feats with which to buy Improved Unarmed Combat. While the less skilled villagers might be Warriors or even Commoners, I honestly believe that many of the others actually are not.
'Mind over body' like abilities can also sign psion class, and it's much more easy to get tutelage in that way (class) than in the monk way.
It is true that Egoists could perform the roles of fakirs, yogis and miracle workers on Raam. However, I see no reason why that would preclude the Psionic Monk from performing similar roles, especially since these have physical components that the Psion simply lacks. Anyway, India also has a tradition for monk-types and martial arts.
It is said that the origin of the martial arts in the Shaolin temple lies with a Brahmin prince-turned Buddhist priest that traveled to China. Once admitted to the temple, Bodhidharma (the prince) devised an exercise regimen to the monks there, namely because he found them so out of shape that they fell asleep during meditation. He also taught them how to develop Chi (Ki) through breath exercises and meditation techniques. And this is how Shaolin kung fu was born!
It is precedents such as this that makes me claim that Raam would be a perfect place for Psionic Monks.
Again, simply fighting unarmed doesn't mean that that person is a monk. Would you consider a wrestler as a monk? He fights professionally unarmed, but he is not a monk, right?
Pankration practitioners certainly were not members of monastic orders. However, they certainly were deeply dedicated to their art. And the fact that pankration was part of the Olympic Games tells me that, to an extent, it had philosophical and religious significance to the Greeks. In this, it was not unlike the “boxing” techniques (kung fu) to the Shaolin.
More importantly, pankration proves that it’s entirely possible to create Athasian characters with supernatural unarmed combat skills without resorting to Asian stereotypes. Pankration is Greco-Roman; so is Balic.
Pertaining to Draxans:
If their lifestyle doesn't follow the 'monk way' they won't be monks.
Several Asian elite troops were masters of martial arts, such as the Gurkha soldiers, members of the Chinese Imperial army and the Japanese samurai. Although they were probably pragmatic about it, some were proficient with even the more esoteric techniques, and the training of martial arts probably had serious philosophical and religious significance to them as well. (As an example, I have read that the training halls of the samurai clans were considered to be “temples” to Hachiman, the god of war.)
What the Draxans do seems remarkably similar to this.
Many of the stereotypes that inspire people to play Monks in regular D&D are not monks (in the sense that they do not belong to monastic orders). The karateka is not a monk. The Asian cop of modern movies is not a monk. A great deal of the characters from Hong Kong movies are not monks.
Besides, even though monastic orders do exist on Athas, the Athasian Monks need not be monks. The way I see it, the Athasian (Psionic) Monk is a character that focuses on unarmed combat skills enhanced through the use of psionics, and that may or may not be proficient with exotic weapons in addition to her/his superior hand-to-hand techniques. Also, she/he is a character that may or may not be a member of a cult or monastery, though she/he has an undeniable underlying spirituality, as evidenced by her/his use of psionics and her/his devotion to honing her/his skills.
With just the right flavor text, the Psionic Monk can be made to fit a really large niche on Athas, IMHO.
Originally Posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Psionic Monk
Psionic monks are students of martial arts, combining physical training with psionic power to impressive results. In a psionic world in which metal is scarce, psionically enhanced unarmed combat has evolved naturally. Psionic martial art training is rigorous and painful, requiring discipline and high tolerance of pain. Some psionic monks practice their art on their own, while others seek small cults and monasteries for tutoring.
Well, for me this description means a psychic warrior with appropriate feats (improved unarmed fighting, psionic fist, etc.), not a Kwai-Cheng Kane type of character from the series Kung-Fu, which is much closer to a real monk.
Actually, monks, as defined by dictionaries, are “members of monastic orders”. The Monk, as per PHB, is a Core Class meant for characters that have the uncanny ability to fight unarmed and unarmored, are able to perform superhuman feats through mystical powers, and usually are member of monastic orders. My posts actually referred to a third definition: Athasian characters (both PCs and NPCs) belonging either to the PrC (Psionic Monk) or to a possible full Character Class; my guidelines were basically Jon’s flavor text for his PrC:
Regarding the dictionary: there is a confusion betwen the western type and the eastern type monk. And than there is an other -very widespread- confusion about what does it mean being a monk. And that's the main cause of every such problem. The goal and the way is all mixed up. As I see being monk means an aspire to perfect himself, reach internal and external balance, and achieve transcendence and/or enlightment through it. And _as a side effect_ can these people put their abilities to practical use as well, having good unarmed combat skills, good saves, ki/chi abilities, etc. But if somebody starts to train to improve his fighting skills and abilities he is not a monk. He is a fighter, or psychic warrior, or whatever. His main goal is fighting. The monk's goal is harmony. That's the big difference. And as you write that's why are cops, elite troopers, etc. are monks. Their goal is to improve their abilities to be more effective in fight. For a monk it's not the goal. It's just a result.
(Sorry if I’m being too bookish; no offense intended: just trying to clarify my statements.)
And that's good, without it we can't discuss this truly. By all means, go ahead man! ;)
The purpose of my post was to characterize the Psionic Monks; I was trying to establish who exactly were the people belonging to the PrC or who might belong to a full Psionic Monk Class, should one be made. I came up with several possible backgrounds for such characters; some were based on entirely official sources, others on reasonable reinterpretations of the setting. As such, my statement above was meant to provide DMs and players with a feasible explanation that might validate a character (PC or NPC) having at least one level of Psionic Monk if she/he is from Nibenay: the character spent a month in a monastery and was exposed to the basics of the art there!
And it was a very good summary you made, thanks for it!
The history - and especially the myth – of martial arts is full of prodigies that became proficient with a style, and even eventually mastered it, after a short training period. Some were even reputedly able to learn a style after witnessing it being performed once! This may not be a totally realistic thing, but Darksun is supposed to be a fantasy setting, after all.
I'm big fun of such movies, like 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon', but I don't use such things in my games. I think it's out of style. But it's only me...
Indeed. Karate was originally developed by Okinawan peasants that were forbidden to carry weapons. In order to fight samurais, they resorted to farming tools and empty hands. That sounds remarkably like what the Eldaarican villagers have done.
True. But the peasants from Okinawa are not monks. Simply they have other things to do, like harvesting. They can't dedicate their lives to the way of perfection to be a monk. If one of them do some way, he can be, as the background is OK.
Still, I do believe that Psionic Monks are numerous in the villages. Those people depend on Cuurnu to survive. They depend on it to communicate and to maintain sanity. They train constantly and determinedly. In real life, these are circumstances that produce deadly martial artists in numbers. In Brazil, for example, some slaves of African descent developed an acrobatic martial art called capoeira. They practiced it openly, under the guise of dancing. Given the extreme conditions under which those slaves lived, I would bet they were a mach to the monks of Shaolin-su. Or, at least, that many of them would be.
I know capoeira, and agree with you.
Also, as I stated in another thread, “Stats (Class and Level) of the Athasian population”, I believe NPCs of PC Classes are much more frequent in DarkSun than in other D&D settings.
Again, I agree here.
Finally, the Warrior NPC Class is a horrible substitute for the Monk. It features lousy Reflex and Will saving throws, lousy skill selection and, worst of all, no bonus feats with which to buy Improved Unarmed Combat. While the less skilled villagers might be Warriors or even Commoners, I honestly believe that many of the others actually are not.
Horrible, yes, but that's the fate of the underdogs. The question: why should they be other than warrior? If the background dictates it, then OK. But if not, than sorry...
It is true that Egoists could perform the roles of fakirs, yogis and miracle workers on Raam. However, I see no reason why that would preclude the Psionic Monk from performing similar roles, especially since these have physical components that the Psion simply lacks. Anyway, India also has a tradition for monk-types and martial arts.
I didn't said it precludes, I said it would be more common.
Many of the stereotypes that inspire people to play Monks in regular D&D are not monks (in the sense that they do not belong to monastic orders). The karateka is not a monk. The Asian cop of modern movies is not a monk. A great deal of the characters from Hong Kong movies are not monks.
I don't think monastic order is a prerquistic to be a monk. The 'lonely hermit master with one or few students' is very valid and common. Being monk not depends on the frame (order or single master) of tutelage, it depends on the tutelage itself.
Pankration practitioners certainly were not members of monastic orders. However, they certainly were deeply dedicated to their art. And the fact that pankration was part of the Olympic Games tells me that, to an extent, it had philosophical and religious significance to the Greeks. In this, it was not unlike the “boxing” techniques (kung fu) to the Shaolin.
More importantly, pankration proves that it’s entirely possible to create Athasian characters with supernatural unarmed combat skills without resorting to Asian stereotypes. Pankration is Greco-Roman; so is Balic.
Pertaining to Draxans:
Several Asian elite troops were masters of martial arts, such as the Gurkha soldiers, members of the Chinese Imperial army and the Japanese samurai. Although they were probably pragmatic about it, some were proficient with even the more esoteric techniques, and the training of martial arts probably had serious philosophical and religious significance to them as well. (As an example, I have read that the training halls of the samurai clans were considered to be “temples” to Hachiman, the god of war.)
What the Draxans do seems remarkably similar to this.
Many of the stereotypes that inspire people to play Monks in regular D&D are not monks (in the sense that they do not belong to monastic orders). The karateka is not a monk. The Asian cop of modern movies is not a monk. A great deal of the characters from Hong Kong movies are not monks.
Besides, even though monastic orders do exist on Athas, the Athasian Monks need not be monks. The way I see it, the Athasian (Psionic) Monk is a character that focuses on unarmed combat skills enhanced through the use of psionics, and that may or may not be proficient with exotic weapons in addition to her/his superior hand-to-hand techniques. Also, she/he is a character that may or may not be a member of a cult or monastery, though she/he has an undeniable underlying spirituality, as evidenced by her/his use of psionics and her/his devotion to honing her/his skills.
With just the right flavor text, the Psionic Monk can be made to fit a really large niche on Athas, IMHO.
Not to be a suck up, but I totaly agree with you on this. Very nicely explained.
PB
Hmm, maybe the psionic monk should be renamed to Sensei? It does fit the concept of the 2E sensei. Thoughts?
The 2E Sensei was the #1 kit whose name I didn't like.
A sensei is a real-world teaching title from asia, given to "a judo or karate teacher" and "a teacher or mentor".
I had enough of Karate-Kid in the 80s, thank you.
Otherwise I like kung-fu movies.My opinion on this doesn't matter much, and shouldn't, but for what its worth I suggest finding another term. Maybe another community effort, like for naming the tyrian templar PrC?
Got any better suggestions?
Mindfist?
(Any one catch the reference?)
Aaaaaaaaahhhh, the old times...
:PThe Ascetic.
as·cet·ic
n.
A person who renounces material comforts and leads a life of austere self-discipline, especially as an act of religious devotion.
One word I like is the name a friend of mine used for a psionic-based, monk-like PrC. Its an invented word: celerist.
ce·ler·i·ty
n.
Swiftness of action or motion; speed. See Synonyms at haste.
One word I like is the name a friend of mine used for a psionic-based, monk-like PrC. Its an invented word: celerist.
Sorry, but Celery comes to mind. One who believes in celery. A fighting vegtarian, or vegetable? I don't know why, but I keep invisioning a fighting celery stick.
I know that Sensei was a ridiculous name for the 2E kit. Got any better suggestions?
IIRC, Mystic was another martial arts oriented Kit. Not a terrific choice, but it's still better than Sensei.
Soulfist!!!!!!
Yes, Psionic Fist would be a good name, wouldn't it? Too bad it's already taken. I myself came up with Psychic Fist and Cerebral Fist
. And there's Elonarc's Mindfist and Peacebringer's suggestions. Soulfist is a good variant too.Sorry, but Celery comes to mind. One who believes in celery. A fighting vegtarian, or vegetable? I don't know why, but I keep invisioning a fighting celery stick.
That was horrible, Joboo...Actually, heh
, despite being somewhat inappropriate, Psionic Monk may not be such a terrible name for the class after all, as it states clearly what it's supposed to be: an Athasian version of the PHB Monk. I'm not against searching for a better name, though.As I see being monk means an aspire to perfect himself, reach internal and external balance, and achieve transcendence and/or enlightment through it. And _as a side effect_ can these people put their abilities to practical use as well, having good unarmed combat skills, good saves, ki/chi abilities, etc. But if somebody starts to train to improve his fighting skills and abilities he is not a monk. He is a fighter, or psychic warrior, or whatever. His main goal is fighting. The monk's goal is harmony. That's the big difference. And as you write that's why are cops, elite troopers, etc. are monks. Their goal is to improve their abilities to be more effective in fight. For a monk it's not the goal. It's just a result.
Clearly, your description fits well both the real-life monk's goals and what's written on the PHB Monk entry. However, my point is that this is a somewhat limited concept (from the gaming perspective), and that DarkSun will profit much from having a "Monk" class with broader boundaries.
In all fairness, other people suggested similar things. I've just found out that jesterjeff argued a similar idea on post #21 of this same thread. (Serves me right for not reading things through.)
I'm big fun of such movies, like 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon', but I don't use such things in my games. I think it's out of style. But it's only me...
A real-life example, then: the more skilled samurai (experienced masters and “inexperienced” prodigies both) were reputedly able to learn another’s fencing style by engaging in combat with the rival. It is said that many masters were constantly challenged to duels precisely for this purpose. Of course, the styles in question were all minor variations of the same martial art - Kenjutsu. Still, it’s an extraordinary display of skill and an interesting precedent.
But the peasants from Okinawa are not monks. Simply they have other things to do, like harvesting. They can't dedicate their lives to the way of perfection to be a monk. If one of them do some way, he can be, as the background is OK.
Given that the monasteries were supposed to be secluded, I’d say real-life monks probably did lot’s of other things besides training. They probably had to grow their own food too, and make their own clothes, and fix their wooden walls and roofs themselves. They likely had to spend lots of time meditating and studying history and poetry.
And, unlike the monks, the Okinawan peasants had to fight constantly for their own lives against numerous skilled enemies that were much better armed than they. I’d say that the peasants were probably just as deadly martial artists as the Shaolin.
Clearly, your description fits well both the real-life monk's goals and what's written on the PHB Monk entry. However, my point is that this is a somewhat limited concept (from the gaming perspective), and that DarkSun will profit much from having a "Monk" class with broader boundaries.
Well, it's maybe just me, but I wouldn't water up the monk that way. There are numerous other ways to get very good unarmed combat skills mixed with some hint of supernatural power (psychic warriors with improved unarmed combat feat is just one). I also don't want to remove the monk entirely from Athas, I think it's fine as a PrC, it has its places. But sorry, I don't get what do you think with "limited concept". E.g. the paladin is also a class with many restriction and specialities, but I think you wouldn't think it as a limted concept from the gaming perspective.
A real-life example, then: the more skilled samurai (experienced masters and “inexperienced” prodigies both) were reputedly able to learn another’s fencing style by engaging in combat with the rival. It is said that many masters were constantly challenged to duels precisely for this purpose. Of course, the styles in question were all minor variations of the same martial art - Kenjutsu. Still, it’s an extraordinary display of skill and an interesting precedent.
Such things are okay in a Feng Shui or Mortal Kombat rpg, but usually not on Athas. Maybe gladiators are a good class to have such things happen with them in a memorable arena fight, it's in style there. For others, dunno...
Given that the monasteries were supposed to be secluded, I’d say real-life monks probably did lot’s of other things besides training. They probably had to grow their own food too, and make their own clothes, and fix their wooden walls and roofs themselves. They likely had to spend lots of time meditating and studying history and poetry.
Again, I think the goal and the way is mixed up a bit here. Of course both group had to make a living, repair their home, etc. But for the monks it was a secondary priority, built into their lives, but not a goal. For a peasant it was the most important thing, everything could come only after it. Family should have food, shelter, etc.
And, unlike the monks, the Okinawan peasants had to fight constantly for their own lives against numerous skilled enemies that were much better armed than they. I’d say that the peasants were probably just as deadly martial artists as the Shaolin.
If you see this from rulewise, there is not much difference in lower level between a monk and a fighter with cleverly selected feats.
Such things are okay in a Feng Shui or Mortal Kombat rpg, but usually not on Athas. Maybe gladiators are a good class to have such things happen with them in a memorable arena fight, it's in style there. For others, dunno...
Well, I did present a real-life example. Anyway, all I was trying to do was to provide Nibenese characters with an explanation for acquiring Psionic Monk levels. It goes like this: during the 30 days character “X” spent in the monastery, she/he learned the most basic principles of the Psionic Monk – like the basics about unarmed combat and how to mix it with psionics. For a full PC Class: after leaving the temple, “X” decides to develop his skills on his own, independently. For the PrC: some years after leaving Nibenay, “X” recalls his experiences in the monastery and, since he has matured enough, decides to pursue the path of the Psionic Monk on his own, independently.
Again, I think the goal and the way is mixed up a bit here. Of course both group had to make a living, repair their home, etc. But for the monks it was a secondary priority, built into their lives, but not a goal. For a peasant it was the most important thing, everything could come only after it. Family should have food, shelter, etc.
By your own words, Nagypapi, a monk’s priority is spiritual enlightenment, not martial expertise. These peasants, on the other hand, made combat their foremost priority the moment they decided to take on an army of samurai. After all, there’s no need for food or housing if you don’t survive combat.
But sorry, I don't get what do you think with "limited concept".
As I see being monk means an aspire to perfect himself, reach internal and external balance, and achieve transcendence and/or enlightment through it. And _as a side effect_ can these people put their abilities to practical use as well, having good unarmed combat skills, good saves, ki/chi abilities, etc. But if somebody starts to train to improve his fighting skills and abilities he is not a monk.
If followed to the letter, this definition of Monk excludes even the creators of karate from being candidates for the Class!
Even the monks of Shaolin Su – clearly the inspiration for the PHB Monk – eventually failed to live up to these standards. Their temple was destroyed because they opposed the Manchu invaders that conquered the Chinese empire. Their “heirs”, the Boxers, were a secret society that sought to bring down the Manchu and expel westerners from the country. Destroying a hated ruler and driving away foreigners are material goals, not spiritual ones.
Seriously, I wonder how many Monk players actually role-play the spiritual thing to the last particular.
The whole point of living in a monastery is to avoid worldly distractions that prevent spiritual enlightenment. A truly committed Monk wouldn’t leave the temple – especially not to go adventuring!
E.g. the paladin is also a class with many restriction and specialities, but I think you wouldn't think it as a limted concept from the gaming perspective.
I do think the Paladin is limited. However, this Class allows more varied backgrounds than the Monk, and has a more hands-on, adventuring-friendly approach to things.
Anyway, I believe that no matter how specific a Class description may be, players must have some latitude in designing their own characters. The criteria that dictate which characters are allowed to be Monks should not be enforced so strictly even in regular D&D (i.e., PHB Monk).
Well, it's maybe just me, but I wouldn't water up the monk that way.
Every single PHB class that was incorporated into ds3e has been tweaked to some extent in order to make it fit Darksun better. In order to make it more Athasian. Some Classes even suffered major changes. I believe that tweaking the Monk too is a pretty reasonable idea. Necessary, even.
If you see this from rulewise, there is not much difference in lower level between a monk and a fighter with cleverly selected feats.
The Bard and the Rogue are similar, as well. Same thing with the Gladiator and the Fighter. The abilities of the Psychic Warrior could be mimicked by alternating levels of Fighter and Psion.
There are no perfect substitutes for the Monk. And just because it can be replaced is not a good reason to exclude it.
In any case, even though I definitely support a full Psionic Monk Class, most of my posts were written with the PrC in mind. (Or with both the Prc and a full Class in mind.)
Kinda like they did in that one Dragon magazine with all the different paths, and you could only pick one. I think there are some in UA as well.
If anything Lurking Shadow, you have done nothing but build a very solid argument on why a full monk class *should* be incoporated into DS3e, and I thank you for that, it was very interesting to read.