Raistlin
Caramon
Tanis
Kitiara
Tasselhoff
Sturm
Flint
Goldmoon
Riverwind
Gilthanis
Laurana
Kitiara is pretty fairly statted out in WoTL and she could not have advanced that much during the legends series maybe 1 or 2 more levels (unlike the Majere twins who travel back in time and advance quite a bit).
Flint and Sturm are both statted out in WoTL and as they both die during the WoTL, this leaves little time for them to advance much.
So that leaves Caramon and Raistlin, Tanis, Tasselhoff, Gilthanas, and Riverwind.
Raistlin would of course be in the epic levels as the orders did not dare even hint at going after him, so I would say between 25 - 28 (part of this is based off Fisty's stats in ToHS) and I think Raistlin would have the master of the tower template for the Palanthas tower. Caramon would probably be somewhere around 18 or 19 I think. Tanis I would place about 16, same for Riverwind (Gave Caramon more levels as he spent time in the past and in a few gladiator battles, I would say that is good for quick ascension in levels). Tasselhoff, or uncle Tasselhoff, would probably be one of the few epic kenders out there. I mean you don't get to be uncle for (or impersonated by) every kender in the world for nothing. I say Tasslehoff would be about 22 or 23. Gilthanas as far as we know is still out there running aroound so he would probably be about 19th I think.
Not sure if you wanted more than just level guesses but this is what i got so far. If you need more, just post a request and I will see what I can come up with.
what classes and levels do you think these characters were at their most powerful.
Raistlin 25th to 30+lvl - My guess
Caramon 22th lvl or higher - My Guess
Tanis 17th to 18th lvl - My Guess
Kitiara 17th lvl - My Guess
Tasselhoff 22th lvl or higher - My Guess
Sturm 11th to 12th lvl - My Guess
Flint 14th lvl - My Guess
Goldmoon 19th lvl - AOM
Riverwind 19th lvl - My Guess
Gilthanis 18th to 22th - lvl My Guess
Laurana 16th lvl - AOM
In fact, a lot of the character levels, aside from Raistlin, seem a little overpowered. Isn't Dragonlance supposed to be a low level setting and not the sort of thing with epic level people hanging around on every street corner?
Tasslehoff 22nd level? That doesn't really gell (sp?) with the Tasslehoff from the books. I'd have gone with 5th level or thereabouts.
I suppose that depends on what books you are reading. The original game products stated most of the Heroes around 5th level at the time of Chronicles. After that, Tas and the others do more adventuring and Tas did defeat Chaos, (ok, not alone, but think of the XP!!! :D )
So again, it all depends on WHEN you want their levels...
Tanis - 10th
Kitiara - 13th
Sturm - 6th
Flint - 9th
Goldmoon - 8th
Riverwind - 9th
Gilthanis - 8th
Laurana - 6th
I suppose that depends on what books you are reading. The original game products stated most of the Heroes around 5th level at the time of Chronicles. After that, Tas and the others do more adventuring and Tas did defeat Chaos, (ok, not alone, but think of the XP!!! :D )
So again, it all depends on WHEN you want their levels...
I was basing it on the Tasslehoff from the Dragonlance novels personally: quick, nimble, agile. But 22nd level? Tasslehoff? He'd be a match in hand to hand combat with the best fighters in the world and no one's going to convince me that's the case.
Aside from anything else, it's a long way from level 5 to level 22. And even if Tasslehoff has had a long and interesting life, he just hasn't got into that many fights or done enough things to gain XP to justify such a massive increase in levels.
Fistandantilus is down as CR23 and he's considered to be pretty much above everyone else, aside from Raistlin. The idea that Caramon and Tasslehoff are both 22nd level just doesn't work. I'd put Caramon at between 10-13 and Tasslehoff at 5. Ariakus might well hit level 20 because at the time of the War of the Lance he was the most powerful individual in the world.
I agree that 22nd-level is perhaps too high for Caramon and Tas. But 13th-level, let alone 5th, is far too low. The characters start the War of the Lance at 4th level across the board, and I could not be convinced that Tas gains only one level over the course of his entire life thereafter. As far as Tas's combat abilities go, while we don't see him hacking through legions of draconians, we do know that Tas can keep himself alive in battles with the mightiest foes in all of Krynn. While as a character Tasslehoff is not a combat monster, his levels are a measure of survivabilty. And as Hatrel mentioned, he does injure a god. Even Raistlin barely gets that far.
As has been stated, Goldmoon and Laurana (in Age of Mortals) and Kitiara (in War of the Lance) have already been given stats for the apex of their power, and they are our only objective basis for comparison. Given that, I'd say all of the listed Companions who survive the War of the Lance are probably between 15th- and 20th-level.
More specifically:
Raistlin - 30th (approximate and generous, but certainly epic if he could take on a god and, if only in an alternate reality, win)
Caramon - 18th
Tanis - 16th
Kitiara - 16th
Tasselhoff - 20th (one of the most skilled and most adventerous rogues ever to walk Krynn, and the most active of all the Heroes of the Lance)
Sturm - 10th
Flint - 11th
Goldmoon - 19th (as given in AoM)
Riverwind - 17th
Gilthanis - 17th
Laurana - 16th (as given in AoM)
Fistandantilus is down as CR23 and he's considered to be pretty much above everyone else, aside from Raistlin. The idea that Caramon and Tasslehoff are both 22nd level just doesn't work. I'd put Caramon at between 10-13 and Tasslehoff at 5. Ariakus might well hit level 20 because at the time of the War of the Lance he was the most powerful individual in the world.
Tanis - 10th
Kitiara - 13th
Sturm - 6th
Flint - 9th
Goldmoon - 8th
Riverwind - 9th
Gilthanis - 8th
Laurana - 6th
All the Heros were 6th level after Xak Tsaroth.
You have the adventure in Pax Tharkas +1 to level of all heros.
You have theadventurre in Skull Cap to help find North Gate of Thorbarden hero go up +1 or 2 levels.
You have the adventure in Thorbarden to find the Hammer of Khares +1 level to all heros.
You have the adventure to find Tarsis +0 level to the Heros.
You have the dream possibly +1 to level of all heros.
You have the travel thru the nightmare of Silvansti forest +1 lvl to Raist., Caramon, Tanis, Tika, Riverwind, and Goldmoon.
You have the adventure in Ice Wall Keep Most definately +1 lvl possible +2 lvl to Sturm, Larurana, Tas, Flint, Githanas, Derek
You have the exit of Silvansti forest, and the month of performing in balifor, and the other area +1 lvl to Raistlin, Caramon,Tanis, Tika, Riverwind, and Goldmoon.
The defense of High Clericist Tower +1 lvl to Laurana, Tas, and Flint
(This is why Sturm I gave 11th or 12th level as the max he reached. Add up what I guest.)
Githanas adventure in sanction +2 lvl possibly more (in the heart of evil)
The tides of war turns +1 lvl to Laurana, Flint, Tas, Githanas if not +2 lvl they are killing dragons after all.
I can go on and on why I gave the heros those type Levels. If you don't agree with it *shrugs* they are Heros after all.
Goldmoon - 19th level
Laurana - 16th level
Sturm - 10th level
Kitiara - 15th level (bearing that she does not advance from her stats in WotL)
Here are some of my guesses:
Tanis 15th or 16th level
Flint - 12th level
Tasslehoff - 15th level
Riverwind - 17th level (remember, he died fighting Malys)
Gilthanas - currently somewhere around 15-18th level
Caramon - 18th level or so
Raistlin - 28th to 30th level (being generous on the 30th level, I did figure out how he could send himself to the Dwarfgate Wars via Reserves of Strength, Nuitari being in full, and Spell Power).
After some further thinking I would say that Caramon, Tanis, and Riverwiond are probably about 18-19. Caramon did that travel back in time thing and got some levels, but when he got back he didn't really do a whole lot. Riverwind fought Malys, Tanis had some politiciking with the Qualinesti and all. As I said before I think Tas woudl be epic at least about 22. Raistlin is powerful, yes truly powerful, but so was Fisty. I still say about 26-27th. (Just so you know, I believe Raistlin to be the best character out there ever. He would wipe the floor with Elminster, Drizzt, and the Dragon overlords would pall in his presence, and I would love to stat him out at 35, but I do not believe that that truly represents Raistlin.) Gilthanas is one of the few still running around and he chased Silvara all over (the) gods's creation so I would say he is at or close to epic. (Never really did like Gil though), probably 19-22. Flint is probably about 12 or 13th.
There's a running theory that every age has its singular epic character. That character must die or pass Beyond before another takes his place. Ariakas, Fistandantilus and Raistlin all qualify. Vinas Solamnus may have been such an individual, but then again perhaps not - Huma Dragonbane certainly wasn't an epic level character. That's part of what made him such a legend.
Cheers,
Cam
**Raistlin- Would have been a level 20 Wizard/Level10 BlackRobe/Level 5 ArchMage
***Caramon- Probably would have been a high level Fighter, with a few levels as a Legendary Tactician
***Tanis- I will grant him as a Ranger, albiet without magic.
***Kitiara-Maybe I would give her some notional Knights of the Skull or whichever one was the 'warrior' branch. That would reflect her fall to darkness. But a few levels in DragonRider and in Legendary Tactician would be reasonable
***Tasselhoff- High level thief
***Sturm- Obviously a Knight of the Crown, with some levels as a fighter
***Flint- Mid level fighter, some levels if possible that reflect his years as a craftsman.
***Goldmoon- Barbarian/Cleric of Mishakall
***Riverwind- Barbarian
***Gilthanis- Level 4 MagicUser/Level something Fighter
***Laurana- Level something Noble. Levels as a Legendary Tactician, perhaps notional Knight of Solamnia levels
I am doing this I guess more or less how and what they came across, by the end of TWINS trilogy
**Raistlin- Would have been a level 20 Wizard/Level10 BlackRobe/Level 5 ArchMage
***Caramon- Probably would have been a high level Fighter, with a few levels as a Legendary Tactician
***Tanis- I will grant him as a Ranger, albiet without magic.
***Kitiara-Maybe I would give her some notional Knights of the Skull or whichever one was the 'warrior' branch. That would reflect her fall to darkness. But a few levels in DragonRider and in Legendary Tactician would be reasonable
***Flint- Mid level fighter, some levels if possible that reflect his years as a craftsman.
***Goldmoon- Barbarian/Cleric of Mishakall
***Riverwind- Barbarian
***Laurana- Level something Noble. Levels as a Legendary Tactician, perhaps notional Knight of Solamnia levels
A few things. I deleted the ones i did not want to say anything about. Raistlin. I like your portrayal of Raistlin.
Caramon. That's good too, but i think he should have a few levels in Master.
Tanis:Gotta have some Legendary Tactician.
Kitiara:Fighter/Rogue/Legendary Tactician. Think about it. Also, the warrior branch is the Lilly.
Flint:Fighter/Master. Master is the class that reflects him as a smith.
Goldmoon:Sorry, as shown in AoM, she never had any levels in Barbarian.
Riverwind:Two things. One:From what people have posted, he's Ranger/Barbarian. Two:He is the most rangery character in the books. Any of the books.
Laurana:Fighter/Noble/Legendary Tactician, as shown in AoM.
A few things.
Thrune, have you seen the War of the Lance sourcebook yet? Many of these characters (all of them, actually) have their War-era stats provided in there. Kitiara, especially.
Cheers,
Cam
There's a running theory that every age has its singular epic character. That character must die or pass Beyond before another takes his place. Ariakas, Fistandantilus and Raistlin all qualify. Vinas Solamnus may have been such an individual, but then again perhaps not - Huma Dragonbane certainly wasn't an epic level character. That's part of what made him such a legend.
Cheers,
Cam
Theory? By whom?
Even with this theory, Tasselhoff could still be Epic as he becomes epic after raistlin dies. I mean think about all the stuff Tas did. "He had broken dragon orbs, gone back in time and into the abyss, and chatted with a number of gods, - then sacrficed his life to draw blood from chaos", and let's not mention the fact that he returned from the dead, and all the other stuff he did that few know about. I mean what about all the slumming around he did with Fizban for crying out loud, a god does not just hang out with someone for no reason!!!
My versions:
Raistlin: Wiz 12\Black 10\Archmage 5\War Mage 1
Caramon: Ftr 18 (Yes he owns the Inn, but Tika runs that more than caramon)
Tanis: Ftr 10\Rogue 4\Master Ambassador 2
Riverwind: Bbn 8\Rgr 10
Gilthanas: Nob 2\ Wiz 3\Ftr 7\Rog 4
Flint: Ftr 10\Master 2
Tasselhoff: Rog 10\ Handler 12
i dont no of the game but the books r awesome r u sure that sturm would be best on the 6th level!Thats a little low.
Sturm is 6th lvl after they leave Xak Tsaroth as well as all the heros.
A few things. I deleted the ones i did not want to say anything about. Raistlin. I like your portrayal of Raistlin.
Caramon. That's good too, but i think he should have a few levels in Master.
Tanis:Gotta have some Legendary Tactician.
Kitiara:Fighter/Rogue/Legendary Tactician. Think about it. Also, the warrior branch is the Lilly.
Flint:Fighter/Master. Master is the class that reflects him as a smith.
Goldmoon:Sorry, as shown in AoM, she never had any levels in Barbarian.
Riverwind:Two things. One:From what people have posted, he's Ranger/Barbarian. Two:He is the most rangery character in the books. Any of the books.
Laurana:Fighter/Noble/Legendary Tactician, as shown in AoM.
I think that Raistlin is kind of realy high!! i'd give him maybe 23rd lvl!
I KNOW he's the master of past and present or whatever but still, i mean 35th lvl?!
The rest of the heros are like 17 at the highest! Come on!still, people have different opinions. i know this from experience, and we can just agree to disagree
Thrune, have you seen the War of the Lance sourcebook yet? Many of these characters (all of them, actually) have their War-era stats provided in there. Kitiara, especially.
Cheers,
Cam
I do not own the WotL sourcebook yet. It is on the list of "I will get this when i have the time/money". However, you people expose secrets about Sovereign Press books WAY too much. Plus, everyone complains about what they don't like, so i learn all the problems in the book.
A few things. I deleted the ones i did not want to say anything about. Raistlin. I like your portrayal of Raistlin.
Caramon. That's good too, but i think he should have a few levels in Master.
I would disagree. I would say that from AUTUMN'S TWILIGHT to TEST OF THE TWINS, he always came across first, second, and thirdly a warrior. And while a competent general, he was more helped by certain parameters that history had to repeat itself. So I would say, in 3rd edition ADnD, he was a fighter, not much else. NOt that there is anything wrong with that.
Tanis:Gotta have some Legendary Tactician.
Disagree. In those books, he never came across as that kind of warrior. He did not command troop types. Ranger, but to complement his leadership, maybe some levels in Noble.
Kitiara:Fighter/Rogue/Legendary Tactician. Think about it. Also, the warrior branch is the Lilly.
Well, in the same branch that they gave Lord Ariakas levels in THORN KNIGHT, because he was clearly the predecessor of it, I would make Kitiara the same in a Lilly Knight. I would have essentially, as a DM, essentially converted her levels as a Fighter into a Lily Knight. And yes, there is no doubt her tactical skill. Legendary Tactician she would get. And perhaps even some levels in DragonRider, to support her rapport with Skie.
Flint:Fighter/Master. Master is the class that reflects him as a smith.
Gotcha.
Goldmoon:Sorry, as shown in AoM, she never had any levels in Barbarian.
I don't acknowledge any of the 2nd Generation books or novels, which I consider to be pure crap.
Riverwind:Two things. One:From what people have posted, he's Ranger/Barbarian. Two:He is the most rangery character in the books. Any of the books.
Your right, he is the most "rangery" character.
Laurana:Fighter/Noble/Legendary Tactician, as shown in AoM.
Again, you know what I think of AOM stuff. I think NOble/Tactician is what we saw her do in the original trilogy and will leave it at that.
Stop insulting the AoM and second generation+. I liked those, and they are The Sovereign Press Official Desicion.
Read my signature then. I thought Dragonlance had a rich history and back story leading up to it, and I think the new books starting with the Second Generation and moving onwards chronologically have been so awful, and don't read or acknowledge any of them. This includes all the War of Souls, AOM, etc, etc, stuff. Compared to what I felt for DragonLance, I am so sad to see things go this way.
( I absolutely LOVE all books set pre-Cataclysm, btw)
Now I'm sure the Dark Queen had communicated with Kitiara, but not anything close to Arakias. The *only* reason I don't mind Arakias having Thorn levels is because it explains how he can be a Dragon Highlord in Takhisis's army and have Takhisis as his patron, when he is a wizard. Making him a renegade would accomplish the same thing, but this way works also. I'm still not a huge fan of it just because I think its *funky*, but it happens. I havent been happy about the way several people are statted out, but I realize you can't make everyone happy. I still believe that the Moon gods would have noticed that Arakias got his magic from the Queen and tried to take steps to prevent it happening again. And it annoys me that any god who wants to can just siphon(sp?) magic to their followers apparantly and the only thing holding them back is "their good will". But whatever. Why couoldnt the Knights of Thorn just been renegades, who gained ways to enhance their magic from Takhisis, but not magic itself?
At one time I would have laughed at Tasslehoff being Epic level too, but the more I think on it I actually think its a good idea. The guy survives amazing things. I personally believe Tasslehoff has been through more things than almost anyone else in the history of Dragonlance. If you just follow him throughout his life, he has experienced *a lot*. It doesnt really bother me if Tasslehoff would have the capability to kill a 15th level Fighter or something. Just because he physically could, with things like luck, etc, doesnt mean he goes around doing it. I think he should have a lot of epic abilities that basically boil down to "dumb luck". But thats my opinion.
I believe Raistlin should be in the 30's just because the Conclave as a whole were scared of him. I'ms orry but if the guy was a 22nd level wizard, I'm sure the Conclave together could bring him down and they wouldnt be *as* scared of him. But if you look throughout the novels, all wizards, no matter if they were an individual or a group were scared as heck of him.
I would argue that Vinas Solamnus was a Knight of Solamnia even before he actually made it official when he founded the Knighthood, he had his levels before he actually built Vingaard Keep and the High Clerist tower and actually put to paper the Oath and the Measure.
So I think in the same thing, based on how Kitiara was portrayed in the CHRONICLES and in the TWINS trilogy, I think it is fair to say when she took her oath to the Queen of Darkness in Neraka, that she in a sense became a Lilly Knight. Or rather, if I were DM, I would have given her that class levels to help "flesh" her out.
Cheers,
Cam
Kitiara has levels in the dragon highlord prestige class, as well as dragon rider, so she doesn't need to represent any archetype of Lily Knight. That archetype was Ariakan himself, who modeled his own behavior and version of honorable conduct after the knights of Solamnia. In essence, the Solamnics are the prototype of the Lily Knight, filtered through Ariakan's evil vision. The Skull knights are modeled, of course, after the Sword knights and clerics of Takhisis such as Verminaard. And the Thorn knights were inspired by Ariakan's father.
Cheers,
Cam
I was not aware there was a DragonHighLord Prestige class. Truth be told, all these prestige classes being thrown out are getting to be a bit too much.
Ariakas was the prototype for the Thorn Knights, and it seemed a good stretch to say Kitiara was a prototype for the Lily Knight. And it could be argued that Veminaard was a prototype for the Skull Knights, so in a sense, you got three big villains as the "prototypes" for the Knights of Takhisis.
But we all get our ways to interpret, I guess.
I was not aware there was a DragonHighLord Prestige class. Truth be told, all these prestige classes being thrown out are getting to be a bit too much.
Prestige classes are one of the most popular features of D&D sourcebooks, along with new feats, spells, and creatures. It's also a very good way to approach particular problems with specialized characters that can't be solved entirely with base classes. That said, it's true that there's something of a glut of PrCs in D&D - hopefully, the classes that have been published for Dragonlance by Sovereign Press remain useful, flavorful and not just "thrown out".
I highly recommend picking up the War of the Lance sourcebook. For somebody who so obviously can't stand the post-Chaos War era, it should be the ideal addition to your Dragonlance campaign - and it's packed with information and background material that collates all of the previous 4th age material together and attempts to smooth out any inconsistencies. Everybody who was involved on the book is extraordinarily happy with the results.
Cheers,
Cam
If you do not acknowledge and obviously do not like AoM stuff, then why are you trying to turn the most not religious person in the world into a Lily Knight, especially if this AoM PrC doe not exist in your mind.
Kitiara would have failed the test of Takhisis. Simply because Kitiara was a mercenary, plain and simple. Her pay was not only money, but men and power. She had absolutely no devotion whatsoever to Takhisis. Yes the Lily knights are essentially the shock troops of the Knights of Takhisis, but not all to petitioned to be one, became one. Knights of Takhisis had to be honorable (that has gone the way of the dodo) and she was flat out plotting to betray her commander so she could take over. She was no way ever, a lily Knight.
Now to be honest when I first tried to play the saga rules that went with the Fifth age I hated the system and was more than a little skeptical about the fifth age as a whole
, I have learned that it was more an aversion to not using dice. The fifth age and the rules that went with it are actually very well thought out and innovative :surrender . The stories are very rich if you read them with the same sense of wonder and excitement that you did when you read the chronicles. Give the fifth age a chance Joe. :whatsthisPrestige classes are one of the most popular features of D&D sourcebooks, along with new feats, spells, and creatures. It's also a very good way to approach particular problems with specialized characters that can't be solved entirely with base classes. That said, it's true that there's something of a glut of PrCs in D&D - hopefully, the classes that have been published for Dragonlance by Sovereign Press remain useful, flavorful and not just "thrown out".
Maybe I am just speaking that I am a purist, and still remmber the day's where there were just Fighters, MagicUsers, Clerics, Thieves, Bards, and such.
I don't have a problem per se with Prestige Classes, but some of the multiclassing where a character is a Level 3 this/Level 5 That/Level2 That Too/Level 6 The Other Thing is just becoming too "Well, he did this in this book which makes him that, but was also this which makes him that".
I like keeping things to a point where one can claim Tanis was a ranger, and his 'leadership' does not need to be defined by being a Noble or a Legendary Tactician but by whomever his "Pc" was playing him.
{ highly recommend picking up the War of the Lance sourcebook. For somebody who so obviously can't stand the post-Chaos War era, it should be the ideal addition to your Dragonlance campaign - and it's packed with information and background material that collates all of the previous 4th age material together and attempts to smooth out any inconsistencies. Everybody who was involved on the book is extraordinarily happy with the results.
Cheers,
Cam
Oh, I agree and will totally get it, I am 100% behind that. I think they should have done a specific Pre-Cataclysm book also though.
DmJoeSolarte.
If you do not acknowledge and obviously do not like AoM stuff, then why are you trying to turn the most not religious person in the world into a Lily Knight, especially if this AoM PrC doe not exist in your mind.
I was not saying that. I was saying based on a lot of her ways, Kitiaria AS PRESENTED IN THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY comes across like, if I were designing her as a main villain in the campaign, would probably present her as a Level 7 LEgendary Tactician/Level 7 Knight of the Lilly. This was before I heard there was a prestige class for Dragon Highlords, which I think is silly: Are they going to create a prestige class for Speaker of the Stars?? prestige class for KingPriests of Istar? No.
Kitiara would have failed the test of Takhisis. Simply because Kitiara was a mercenary, plain and simple. Her pay was not only money, but men and power. She had absolutely no devotion whatsoever to Takhisis. Yes the Lily knights are essentially the shock troops of the Knights of Takhisis, but not all to petitioned to be one, became one. Knights of Takhisis had to be honorable (that has gone the way of the dodo) and she was flat out plotting to betray her commander so she could take over. She was no way ever, a lily Knight.
I have to disagree. While she had her own personal ambitions, I think the fact that for most of Kitiara's time in the DragonArmy's, she saw unquestionably saw the DRagonArmy's as being unstoppable. She came across as very loyal in WINTER NIGHT and SPRING DAWNING, even with her plotting vs Lord Ariakas aside. Which is why I thought it silly that she would be scared of Takhisis entering the world in TEST OF THE TWINS when she all but tried to do that with capturing the Green Gemstone Man.
Now ,the fact that Takhisis had a very strong "foot in the door" in Neraka probably had a lot to do with that.
Now to be honest when I first tried to play the saga rules that went with the Fifth age I hated the system and was more than a little skeptical about the fifth age as a whole
OH, I have the SAGA Silver Anniversary Edition for DragonLance and love the way things are presented. But at the same time, I do not like the way things have gone in all the books, starting with the Second Generation. I just did not like them, and by the time I was done reading SUMMER FLAME, everything I loved about DragonLance seemed to have been swept aside, to the point that I don't read anything set after that, and what I do find out comes across as incredibly stupid to me.
I love everything set Pre-=Cataclysm, though.
she saw unquestionably saw the DRagonArmy's as being unstoppable. She came across as very loyal in WINTER NIGHT and SPRING DAWNING, even with her plotting vs Lord Ariakas aside. Which is why I thought it silly that she would be scared of Takhisis entering the world in TEST OF THE TWINS when she all but tried to do that with capturing the Green Gemstone Man.
Now ,the fact that Takhisis had a very strong "foot in the door" in Neraka probably had a lot to do with that.
Precisely. Kitiara saw the Dragonarmies as the most powerful military force on the conintent as was therefore very loyal to that army conquering the conintinent. She was also loyal to the dark queen because the dark queen was essentially already there in Kitiara's mind. Kitiara was scared of the dark queen in Legends because she knew her loyalty only went so far as to the point that it helped her. She was not willing to die for the dark queen, and that is the underling difference between Kitiara and every other Lily Knight (at least up until after they turned into the Knights of Neraka). Now as the knights stand yes Kitiara could be a Lily Knight as long as they do not do a test of Loyalty on her, because Kit's loyalty is only to herself and maybe to Skie and possibly Lord Soth.
Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte
OH, I have the SAGA Silver Anniversary Edition for DragonLance and love the way things are presented. But at the same time, I do not like the way things have gone in all the books, starting with the Second Generation. I just did not like them, and by the time I was done reading SUMMER FLAME, everything I loved about DragonLance seemed to have been swept aside, to the point that I don't read anything set after that, and what I do find out comes across as incredibly stupid to me.
I am just now finishing the books in my collection that I have not read due to time and I would have to say (that percentage wise) there are just as many books for the fifth age that I do and do not like as there are for the previous ages. Yes some of the books are silly, but so are some of the previous age books. But hey if you do not want to read them and give them a chance that's your choice.
Precisely. Kitiara saw the Dragonarmies as the most powerful military force on the conintent as was therefore very loyal to that army conquering the conintinent. She was also loyal to the dark queen because the dark queen was essentially already there in Kitiara's mind. Kitiara was scared of the dark queen in Legends because she knew her loyalty only went so far as to the point that it helped her. She was not willing to die for the dark queen, and that is the underling difference between Kitiara and every other Lily Knight (at least up until after they turned into the Knights of Neraka). Now as the knights stand yes Kitiara could be a Lily Knight as long as they do not do a test of Loyalty on her, because Kit's loyalty is only to herself and maybe to Skie and possibly Lord Soth.
which is why I said that, I would give Kit levels as a Knight of the Lily, notionally. I realize there were no Knights of Takhisis during the War of the Lance, but would give her such levels because I think it 'fits her' during the war of Lance.
Takhisis WANTS the weak to die and strong to rise, so I don't think she would have any problem with Kitiara trying to overthrow Ariakas, and the book was clear she was amused by it and wanted to see the strong prevail during the battle.
But make no mistake, at that time, if the Takhisis had ordered things stopped, based on the power she projected in Neraka during that Grand Council, she was Queen there and Kitiara and Ariakas knew it.
During those books where she is an up and comer in the DragonArmy, she would still be a fighter. But as she went upwards, or at a bare minimum, when she presents herself to the Queen of Darkness, while I guess if there really is a DragonHighLord prestige class, then I guess one could give her that. As someone whom is not aware of it, I would convert her fighter levels to Knight of the Lily. In the same manner that they gave Ariakas levels as a Thorn Knight, and would probably do the same with Veminaard and Skull Knights.
I am just now finishing the books in my collection that I have not read due to time and I would have to say (that percentage wise) there are just as many books for the fifth age that I do and do not like as there are for the previous ages. Yes some of the books are silly, but so are some of the previous age books. But hey if you do not want to read them and give them a chance that's your choice.
I don't like them because they have done so much to undermine and destroy Krynn's rich history in the past, which I think is a shame. I realize the writers want to sell books, but I don't like the way things have gone. Just reading about all the things in my DLCS makes me shake my head with shame seeing how things I liked being wiped out wholesale in DragonLance.
I don't like them because they have done so much to undermine and destroy Krynn's rich history in the past, which I think is a shame. I realize the writers want to sell books, but I don't like the way things have gone. Just reading about all the things in my DLCS makes me shake my head with shame seeing how things I liked being wiped out wholesale in DragonLance.
Nothing has been wiped out. The Knights were never wiped out. The High Clerist Tower still stands, it was occupied for a long time. (still think it is, but not sure). The Wizards are back after ther 40 year vacation. I was a never a big fan of the 5th age as well. But with the return of the gods, War of Soul, and stuff has drew me back in. The gods are back except 2.
Nothing has been wiped out. The Knights were never wiped out. The High Clerist Tower still stands, it was occupied for a long time. (still think it is, but not sure). The Wizards are back after ther 40 year vacation. I was a never a big fan of the 5th age as well. But with the return of the gods, War of Soul, and stuff has drew me back in. The gods are back except 2.
I read Summer Flame. Too much of what I loved got snuffed out by the books, and truth be told, after all I read in the DLCS, a lot of it seems pretty stupid. I for one will not read anything set chronologically after the TWINS trilogy.
Love the stuff that came out before though.
I was not saying that. I was saying based on a lot of her ways, Kitiaria AS PRESENTED IN THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY comes across like, if I were designing her as a main villain in the campaign, would probably present her as a Level 7 LEgendary Tactician/Level 7 Knight of the Lilly. This was before I heard there was a prestige class for Dragon Highlords, which I think is silly: Are they going to create a prestige class for Speaker of the Stars?? prestige class for KingPriests of Istar? No.
Probably not, since these were singular occupations, not something shared by a group. Maybe a template for Kingpriest, not a class.
Probably not, since these were singular occupations, not something shared by a group. Maybe a template for Kingpriest, not a class.
There is a difference between a Title and a Prestige Class.
Kitiara's title was a DragonHighLord, but she would (imho) a level 7 Lily Knight/Level 7 Legendary Tactician.
Speaker of the Sun Kith Kanan would be a level Something Ranger/Level SOmething Noble.
KingPriest Belindas would be a level something Priest/Level Something Noble
I don't really picture the Kingpriest as a noble as he came from a monestery (sp?), but would definately give him levels of Righteous Zealout...
It's always possible that somoene can be simply a very high level singular class. For some reason, no one wants to go that route anymore.
I KNOW he's the master of past and present or whatever but still, i mean 35th lvl?!
Agreed. "Master of Past and Present" is not some grand special position. It means nothing more than simply this:
Raistlin was two people at the end of Dragons of Spring Dawning. He was Raistlin Majere, the man he was born as, and he was carried part of the spirit/soul of Fistandantilus (thanks to the Test). So effectively, he was two spirits inhabiting one body: Fistandantilus, the master wizard in the Past and Raistlin, the master wizard in the Present, aka Master of the Past and Present.
Fistandantilus was originaly statted as a 25th level magic user at the time of the Dwarf Gate Wars (I just saw this the other day in one of the original DL series...I just can't remmeber which one it was...either DL3 or DL5, I'm sure) which flows perfectly with ToHS which had him at 23rd level in the years before the Cataclysm, ie 20 PC. I think this is a good guage for what Raistlin will end up being. 25th level.
And I would never put Tas at epic level. He died during the Chaos War...and I wouldn't say he had all that high of a level then...perhaps 14 or so? He certainly didn't gain eight, if any at all, levels during the War of Souls...never did anything but run away. (until the end...but that's not enough for eight levels) I think Tas would be 15th level during the War of Souls...roughly.
And I would never put Tas at epic level. He died during the Chaos War...and I wouldn't say he had all that high of a level then...perhaps 14 or so?
If sturm Brightblade was 10th lvl and died when he did. With all the trouble Tas has gotten himself into he, and Caramon are the only heros besides Raistlin to reach epic levels or close too it. Tas lived an epic life for a Kender. He helped stopped Takhisis from entering the world, Saw the firey mountain drop down on him. Stabbed Chaos in the toe. Visited the abyss. Help stopped Raistlin from becoming a god. Was a key in reviving the stream of Time during WoS. This is all after what they did before arriving at the gates of Neraka. And remember you just have to overcome your advasary not nessarly defeat them.
He helped stopped Takhisis from entering the world, Saw the firey mountain drop down on him. Stabbed Chaos in the toe.
You have to survive the encounter to gain the experience.
Visited the abyss.
Yeah, but he got there by accident, and it was the gnome that got them out. So, there's not much experience to be had there.
Help stopped Raistlin from becoming a god.
Yeah, this helped. The Seige of Palanthas would have helped Tas go up in level for sure...but only one, I'd think.
Was a key in reviving the stream of Time during WoS.
But it was Raistlin who did it...again, I don't think Tas would have gained much experience for this.
And remember you just have to overcome your advasary not nessarly defeat them.
True...but, like I said, you do have to survive the encounter.
The big one though (for me) that you've left off is that Tas is the one who figured out where the good dragons were and he was the one who freed them. Now that would get some mondo XP in my game. :D
He did beat the 3 pantheons after that. I still think he would be at least 30th level to do what he did.
I for one will not read anything set chronologically after the TWINS trilogy.
I'd reccomend reading through the War of Souls, despite your stance. It's an excellent trilogy that rivaled everything else out there for me. Fantastic read and some incredibly memorable characters.
Raistlin was not that much more powerful than Fistandantilus in any significant way. (Maybe one or two levels), and Fistandantilus is statted at 22nd level.
Remember, Raistlin didn't defeat Takhisis in the Abyss. He specifically had to weaken her so that he could have even the slightest chance.
He did beat the 3 pantheons after that. I still think he would be at least 30th level to do what he did.
No. After he takes Takhisis' place he is a god. Levels become irrelevant.
But I wonder how the other heros of the lance feel about adventuring with a character that is atleast 7 levels higher then even his own twin brother
A) Levels are a in-game concept, and thus inside the world characters aren't aware of it.
B) Raistlin had ceased adventuring when he truly became powerful. He left his companions in the Blood Sea, remember? Before that, he wasn't that much more powerful than any of his companions.
The time between the Chronicles and Legends was when he began a rapid ascension to becoming the greatest mage.
Additionally, the other Heroes had virtually retired at the end of the Chronicles. Tanis and Laurana are ambassadors. Caramon and Tika are innkeepers. Riverwind and Goldmoon are leading the plainsmen. None of them are that active (except Caramon during the Legends, and Tanis at the end of it).
I think it would be a diservice to make him around 23rd level. I dont like giving a lot of people in Dragonlance uber levels.. but if there's one person who should have it, its Raistlin. Who didnt believe him in Legends when he said he could literally have the world? Thats not something to be taken lightly. And as I said, when a council of 21 of the best wizards fears a person, the guy isn't just "a little bit above level..". That means he literally is to be feared. And this is before he gained Fistandilus's knowledge! I maintain if you add in Fistandilus's knowledge, that should bump him up a little bit too.
I realize that people have an aversion to making these "badass" characters, but I dont see the problem with making Raistlin that powerful. I dont see it as a slippery slope where we'll start seeing a bunch of people like this, but more a unique thing in the history of Dragonlance that would be hard to duplicate. But anythings possible.
And I still maintain I now believe Tas should be Epic. I dont care what anyone says.. the guy has lived through more in his life than practically any other person. I just think the guy should be up there..but I really highly doubt that his official stats will show this fact. He'll be another ~14-15th level character so that it shows he survived...*shrug* it happens.
I think it would be a diservice to make him around 23rd level. I dont like giving a lot of people in Dragonlance uber levels.. but if there's one person who should have it, its Raistlin. Who didnt believe him in Legends when he said he could literally have the world? Thats not something to be taken lightly. And as I said, when a council of 21 of the best wizards fears a person, the guy isn't just "a little bit above level..". That means he literally is to be feared. And this is before he gained Fistandilus's knowledge! I maintain if you add in Fistandilus's knowledge, that should bump him up a little bit too.
Besides which the Conclave wasn't beyond direct assaults. Right before the Chaos War they attacked the grey robes directly. In Raistlins case they were were too afraid to even try it.
That said, it's true that there's something of a glut of PrCs in D&D - hopefully, the classes that have been published for Dragonlance by Sovereign Press remain useful, flavorful and not just "thrown out".
There was a few base classes and prestige classes in DLCS that were thrown out. Most notably the Inquisitor and Noble, which don't really get used all that much, except SP uses the noble to give stats to NPC's.
Since then though the classes have been fairly relevant, and when they weren't (Wyrd, Chorister) they made up for it by being interesting and well-designed.
I highly recommend picking up the War of the Lance sourcebook. For somebody who so obviously can't stand the post-Chaos War era, it should be the ideal addition to your Dragonlance campaign - and it's packed with information and background material that collates all of the previous 4th age material together and attempts to smooth out any inconsistencies. Everybody who was involved on the book is extraordinarily happy with the results.
Plus, seemingly everyone who bought it!
Seriously, does every single person who is rich, noble, etc... *have* to have levels in noble? Seeing Solostron have noble levels I think irked me the most. To me, noble levels basically give you HD or hit points. So Solostron can call in a favor huh...yea well no crap.. he could if he didnt have the class also. He's a friggin King.. or Speaker of the Moon, whatever you want to call it. I doubt he needs a class to give him this great option. And then Laurana has it and other people to(currently at campus so I can't remember who else).
I guess I just take the same approach and ignore it.. its not like I use these people in my campaign anyways, but it is highly annoying to see some great people statted out with bonk abilities.. but hey.. it happens.
Heck I still find the Mariner useless. Dont know about the Inquisitor..since I've barely ever looked over it. Luckily the Master seems to be a great improvement when it comes to a class, so I'm happy about that. I could actually see my players wanting to be one. I hope if there's more to come that SP looks at the Master and goes from there instead of looking back and seeing past ones who just dont make the cut.
I do find the Noble class as one of the most useless things in Dragonlance, unfortunately. I'm always up for new classes, PrC's, etc and let my players choose practically whatever they want classwise. But the noble just plain sucks. Now I can live with that... what do I care if a useless class is featured and it never really sees the light. But what irks me the most is the gratuitous giving out of noble levels whenever someone is even close to being "highborn" or whatever.
I've heard differently about the playability and popularity of the noble, actually. It's seeing a lot of use in Dragonlance campaigns and is sought after by folks who like the class in Star Wars and Wheel of Time yet wanted a version that worked with 3.5 D&D. I've seen it used quite a lot in the campaigns my group runs, and while there aren't any nobles in my current campaign as PCs it's not because the class isn't any good.
I always appreciate hearing other's thoughts on various classes and so forth, and opinion can vary wildly. But, it's no different from people who continually post that the ranger is broken, the sorcerer is more powerful than the wizard (or vice versa), the fighter is the weakest class, or the paladin should be a prestige class. I stand by my belief that all of the new rules and elements introduced in the Dragonlance products from Sovereign Press see use and are (for the most part) balanced and playable. It would surprise me greatly if, for everybody who says the noble is useless and destined for NPC stat blocks, there's not also somebody else who says it's just want Dragonlance has always needed and it fills a role that was otherwise not dealt with sufficiently.
Cheers,
Cam
Ideal for playing characters like Orlando Bloom in Pirates of the Carribean, Taran from the Lloyd Alexander books, Theros Ironfeld, etc., and might shine even more when used as a springboard for multiclassing.
Ideal for playing characters like Orlando Bloom in Pirates of the Carribean, Taran from the Lloyd Alexander books, Theros Ironfeld, etc., and might shine even more when used as a springboard for multiclassing.
I love the Master class - my White Robe diviner PC in Cam's game has several levels of Master (Sage focus) that he took before his Test.
Yes i agree about him killing the other gods, at that time he was a god so we won't count that, but takhisis came into the world fully... and he destroyed over.... he stated himself there was no one on that world who had the power to harm him, but even without that he destroyed everything in the abyss, so only that only Takhisis remained to challenge him. Remember he destroyed legions of undead, demons, Dark clerics, and Dark Mages. pretty good for some one you rate as no more than 23-24 level.
Personaly i feel that lots of wizards in dragonlance are underpowered.... Raistlin, Fistandilus, Galen Dracos, Magius...
There are several things that I know I wont see in my group, which is ok.. nothings perfect. I'll never probably see a half-elf heh.. besides the NPC's I run. Arcane Focus is something that practically doesnt exist because I'll never convince any of my players its worth it. And I think the Noble comes close to these things. Now most people will say.. "Yes but just because you dont see it doesnt mean it isnt good".. which is true. But I also try to look at things with an open mind. Certain things are just made lacking. Its the way of the world. And I for one think that the noble class is one of them. I just looked over their abilities again, and its actually better than what I thought. But unforunately.. they still don't do much. Even when you get higher levels. And to me thats a shame.
Inspire Confidence is nice.. but arcane or divine magic users will be able to do way better, with just a spell or two. And they get several. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I should be able to find a feat somewhere that a fighter could take to try to emulate this ability. But besides that, I guess the noble has something a little bit unique. But to me that shouldnt be one of its major abilities.
The other thing they get is Inspire Greatness...eventually. While its a nice ability, again its easier to find spells to do the same thing with very little trouble. But as I said before, some other classes cant do the same thing.
But now counting those two things and Favor(which is purely up to the discretion of the DM), that makes three things. I do like the Bonus Skill though at first level, which is kind of neat. But there are even feats you can take if thats what you really wanted. A wizard/Cleric sometimes can emulate practically anything, but they are limited to how many spells they cast. While a fighter keeps getting his feats throughout the day, Rogue gets his sneak attack and evasion, etc. A Noble's abilities are still determined by number of times per day. And its a shame.
About the only time I would want to play a noble is actually make a Solamnic that had pure noble levels. Maybe even make him Lawful Neutral... just to do it. Be that snooty guy who just "knows" he's better than everyone heh..
As I've said in another thread, I don't especially like being negative about things. That just seems to be usually when I feel like writing in and voicing my opinion. I actually like way more things that have been written in Dragonlance than not like. But I dont like writing in a lot saying "Yea thats cool!".. its just me I guess, so usually it comes off as me crapping on people's work heh. Honestly though, if classes keep coming like the Master, than I would be happy. I wouldnt mind the Noble so much if it was revised and made better... but seeing people's thoughts on revisions..I doubt that will happen :D
1) Is it necessary?
I think we could all agree that nobles play a much bigger role in the Forgotten Realms, and they certainly get by without a noble class (using the Aristocrat NPC class). You could perhaps argue that since all the elves in the HotL party were nobles you should have one available to players.
2) Is it useful?
I would say less so. Much of the problems of the Noble class stem from its design. It was designed for Star Wars, in which:
1) Equipment, especially technology, plays a much higher role.
2) You are only a hyperspace jump away from a city
3) You do not have enchantment spells
4) You do not have bards
You can't just change the skill list and expect it to simply fit. Well, and the Noble class isn't considered well designed by Star Wars fans either.
Personally, I would say for those wanting a noble class, the Green Ronin noble from its "Master Class" series is probably a much better fit for fantasy role-playing, and more useful for a PC.
For those that wanted a more dragonlance-specific option for a bardic replacement, I would have rather they went with the Charlatan base class. It might still be an option for the future. Take some features from the Chameleon class from Complete Adventurer, add in some minor 4 spell levels of wizard spells, mix in some diplomacy benefits and a high skill point total... and voila. Instant Tika's dad.
I wonder if I design it SP will take it under consideration...
To QuentinGeorge,
Yes i agree about him killing the other gods, at that time he was a god so we won't count that, but takhisis came into the world fully... and he destroyed over.... he stated himself there was no one on that world who had the power to harm him, but even without that he destroyed everything in the abyss, so only that only Takhisis remained to challenge him. Remember he destroyed legions of undead, demons, Dark clerics, and Dark Mages. pretty good for some one you rate as no more than 23-24 level.
Personaly i feel that lots of wizards in dragonlance are underpowered.... Raistlin, Fistandilus, Galen Dracos, Magius...
Official stats for a lot of the characters don't bear much relation to the characters from the books.
Stat-wise, Caramon and Riverwind are pretty much equal in STR yet anyone who has read the books knows that Caramon was a *lot* stronger. Not just a single point of STR but 4-5 points *at least*. Of course, that would mean either making Riverwind a wimp with 'average' STR of about 12-13 or making Caramon impossibly strong.
The Fistandantilus in the books was a lot more powerful than the official statted out version. CR23? Hardly. I'd have said he was of a similar power to the likes of Elminster (different setting but still applies) at CR39 with Raistin being even higher - CR50? The idea of Raistlin as CR25 or thereabouts just doesn't gell with the Raistlin from the books. The guy had the powers of a God or so close to as to make virtually no difference.
Official stats for a lot of the characters don't bear much relation to the characters from the books.
We beg to differ, but then this is one of those things people have some very different opinions on, so that's to be expected.
Stat-wise, Caramon and Riverwind are pretty much equal in STR yet anyone who has read the books knows that Caramon was a *lot* stronger. Not just a single point of STR but 4-5 points *at least*. Of course, that would mean either making Riverwind a wimp with 'average' STR of about 12-13 or making Caramon impossibly strong.
What gives you the idea that Caramon was measurably stronger than Riverwind?
The Fistandantilus in the books was a lot more powerful than the official statted out version. CR23? Hardly. I'd have said he was of a similar power to the likes of Elminster (different setting but still applies) at CR39 with Raistin being even higher - CR50? The idea of Raistlin as CR25 or thereabouts just doesn't gell with the Raistlin from the books. The guy had the powers of a God or so close to as to make virtually no difference.
Fistandantilus is CR22, actually. We think that's pretty godlike as far as Dragonlance is concerned, especially given the vast amount of magic items and resources he acquired over his considerable lifetime.
Cheers,
Cam
What gives you the idea that Caramon was measurably stronger than Riverwind?
That's the way it always seemed in the books.
Fistandantilus is CR22, actually. We think that's pretty godlike as far as Dragonlance is concerned
True. But then I always had the impression from reading the books that Fistandantilus was a long way above any other mage (aside from Raistlin) and putting him at CR22 doesn't make him much stronger than quite a few other mages. If not, if he was only *slightly* stronger than the likes of Par-Salian and Palin, why would he have gained such a reputation?
True. But then I always had the impression from reading the books that Fistandantilus was a long way above any other mage (aside from Raistlin) and putting him at CR22 doesn't make him much stronger than quite a few other mages. If not, if he was only *slightly* stronger than the likes of Par-Salian and Palin, why would he have gained such a reputation?
Par-Salian had a considerable reputation as well, but he was something Fistandantilus was not - a White Robed mage, who had little ambition beyond the pursuit of magic in the Tower. Palin never reached the heights of his power in his time as a wizard; it wasn't until after the Chaos War that he grew into his power, and that was as a sorcerer. There have been a number of powerful and competent wizards in Krynn's history, and a handful have approached Fistandantilus in level, but none of them had the dark motivation, reach and extensive resources of that black mage. Raistlin was justifiably dangerous - he did not play by any of the rules once he set his mind towards his goal.
Cheers,
Cam
They can pretty much blast away anything in the Monster Manual without breaking a sweat.
In fact a 22nd level wizard is probably more powerful than any of the other classes at that level.
My whole problem with someone like Raistlin being statted out as a 23rd or so level wizard is that while a 23rd level wizard is powerful, a group of oh lets say... 21 wizards who are 18th level or so... could take down a lone 23rd level wizard with ease. Now if that said wizard is hanging out in *his* Tower with all the resources that he can come up with.. maybe it'd be a lot harder considering who knows what kinds of things are in the Tower. But if I was part of the council of 21 wizards who were all 18th level above, in our own Tower... eh no I dont think I'd be too worried about that 23rd level wizard coming after me. But... the Conclave was. They were scared to death of Raistlin. A good point someone brought up was that obviously the Conclave doesnt fear action.. when Thorn knights were found out about, the Conclave were swift in taking action and ended up getting their butt handed to them. But when it came to Raistlin they were way too scared to even try something. To me that is very telling.
Again, I do not like giving really high levels to any person in Dragonlance, but in this instance I think there should be an exception. As I've said before, this doesnt need to be a slippery slope where we see lots of people being uber powerful. This can be a unique instance where it just so happened to work out like that and would be very very very hard to replicate. But anything is possible.
21 of the most powerful wizards...scared of one wizard.. just seems to me to be something that deserves the levels to reflect this.
My whole problem with someone like Raistlin being statted out as a 23rd or so level wizard is that while a 23rd level wizard is powerful, a group of oh lets say... 21 wizards who are 18th level or so... could take down a lone 23rd level wizard with ease.
I highly doubt that the Conclave of the Orders has ever had 21 members of 18th level or more. There's no requirement that the Conclave members be 18th level. You could easily be elevated to that esteemed body at 13th or 14th level and none of the wizards would question your talent.
Mistress Jenna, the current Master of the Tower of Wayreth and head of the Conclave, is a CR 17 character. And that's because she's the Master of the Tower. Without that template she'd be CR 16.
Cheers,
Cam
Now I don't play AD&D myself (I'm more like a football fan who watches from the sidelines rather than actually getting involved) but for Raistlin to be feared by a group as powerful as that, his levels would have to be through the roof. They wouldn't be scared of him if he was level 25 or even level 30 because 21 18th level characters could bring down a 30th level character without too much trouble. Sheer weight of numbers would take care of him and while some of them would undoubtedly die, they'd get him in the end. Yet the impression I always had from the books was that Raistlin was *so* powerful that no one thought they had a chance of defeating him.
Personally I'd stick Raistlin at level 50 or thereabouts and if anyone thinks that's unrealistically high... well, that's the way it always seemed in the books. Raistlin was head and shoulders above anyone else, even before he killed Fistandantilus.
Anyways... I did find numerous references where it was said that typically the Conclave consist of the best of the wizards. Now you know the Black Robes have mostly the best in their seats because they fight for it. But I guess someone could say you never know. Beh..
I dont care though.. Even if you made a lot of them 16-17th level.. or whatever.. theres 21 of them. You still dont believe that 21 wizards of that power could take out one wizard who was 23rd? I guess maybe if you gave him epic spells he could do some grand conjuncture or something, I dunno. What I'm saying though.. is that I find it hard to believe that the wizards as a whole.. were scared of one guy who was 23rd level. I find it very hard to believe that with all the resources and stuff they can outfit their people with and just the vast amounts of people and items they have, that they were uniformely scared of a guy who was 23rd level.
Personally I'm sure Raistlin will turn up as around 23rd or 24th because I doubt Cam would argue with our accessments of Raistlin being way above that if he didnt believe Raistlin shouldnt be. And since Cam probably writes a lot of the stat blocks.. I'm sure we'll see Raistlin relatively around the same power as Fistandilus. Who knows maybe there will be extras in there telling why a whole body of 21 wizards who makes the decisions for all the wizards in the world are scared of a guy who is 5 or so levels above them.
Btw.. this isn't supposed to be any kind of diss. I'm sure it can come off like that. I just seem to see this one character as the ultimate powerful one of Dragonlance because of how Wies and Hickman wrote him. Personally I have little stake in it no matter how he comes out. But the way they wrote him, he should be something truly feared and not a guy who has a few more levels than some of the other powerful wizards.
**edit** Well I found the reference to 18th level, it was in the Tales of the Lance book from the boxed set. Since its 2nd edition I guess it doesnt "count".. but I still maintain that they just dont let any slouch on the Conclave. And even if there is one or two, the rest have to be pretty powerful mages.
Looks around for Kipper, hey could use a little help here Kip.Now as for Raistlin and Fistandantilus. Fear of both of these mages was not simply a by product of their level of power but their outlook on others as well. The conclave knew that either one of these mages would not hesitate an instant if they thought the conclave became a threat to them.
First should the conclave ever wish to try and take out either one of these mages they would have to find them first. Raistlin - easy to find (Tower of high sorcery in palanthas). Fistandantilus - nobody ever knew where this mage rested, I doubt even he knew.
Second - Raistlin abandoned his "friends & family" when it suited him, also he was the favored of not only one, but all three gods of magic. If you don't believe me, read soulforge and you will see that raistlin "worshipped" (Using the term lightly) all three and was basically empowered by all three.
Fistandantilus - He keep a hand in the day to day business of the world and was just as ruthless in his ability to manipulate people into doing what he wanted them to do as he was using magic.
Now let's say the conclave attacked either of these mages -
- Go ahead and openly attack Raistlin at the tower (you will get really bad PR by starting a magic war in palanthas), Second you got to past the Shoikan grove (without the permission of the master of the tower, not easily done).
- Fisty, if he was able to keep his spirit ready for Raistlin, how certain are you he did not have a clone out there someone waiting to wake up in the event that he was killed?
As a note, the people saying that Fistandantilus is "only" 22nd level...have they ever played a 22nd level wizard in D&D?
They can pretty much blast away anything in the Monster Manual without breaking a sweat.
In fact a 22nd level wizard is probably more powerful than any of the other classes at that level.
ya i see where your going.... but have u ever played a 23rd level wizard and have 21 wizards of 13th-18th level come after u...
what u don't seem to understand is that i am not stating that 23rd or 25th level isn't powerful... of course it is.
those 21 wizards were scared to death of him, and the guy destroyed everything in the abyss except for takhisis herself.
pretty impressive for a 23-25th level wizard
Alright let's get this straight. Tasselhoff still adventured after Chronicles right up until Legends begins. He also adventured after legends was over. Out of all the "HEROES" he has probably had the most adventurering time, as well as the most contact time with a god (Fizban\Paladine) so give the little guy his due.
He might have adventured more than anyone else but most of his time spent adventuring was either running away or letting others do the fighting for him. Would he still gain XP for running away or doing nothing? Not to mention the fact that if he was, say, level 15 and with Krynn being a low level setting all of his enemies would be so far below him in Challenge Ratings that he wouldn't gain any XP for defeating them anyway.
Still waiting on back-up from Kipper. Where is that darn Kender.Most people seem to aasume that the only way you can accumulate Xp is through battle, wrong. In 2e there was no real system to award Xp for non-combat evetns, 3E at least tries to fix this problem by granting Cr to traps and other non-combat events. But what people need to remeber is that you do receive Xp for ROLE-PLAYING, interaction between characters and NPCs.
Kind of off topic but I've always found the idea of gaining XP for non-combat kind of silly. In theory, someone could go all the way from level 1 to 20 (or higher) just by speaking the right words at the right time, gaining fighting abilities and whopping amounts of hit points along the way.
Kind of off topic but I've always found the idea of gaining XP for non-combat kind of silly. In theory, someone could go all the way from level 1 to 20 (or higher) just by speaking the right words at the right time, gaining fighting abilities and whopping amounts of hit points along the way.
No stranger than becoming better at using Knowledge, Craft or Profession skills simply because you're killing a lot of goblins. D&D has at its heart a simple reward-based mechanism tied to a tiered advancement structure and there's a lot of room in it for applying one's best judgment.
Cheers,
Cam
One thing I don't get about Rastlin, is how he could have taken on all of the Gods? Basically all the Gods had to do was ask the Moons to take away Rastlin's magic, and POOF he's a character with just deadweight instead of being an actual spellcaster, and stomped on easily by even the weakest of the Gods. After all the Moons aren't unintelligent, they're not just slabs of rock which float in space, they can be coaxed into doing something at the Gods behest.
Before he took on Takhisis the good pantheon was hoping he would 'come to his senses', the neutral gods were merely watching, and the evil gods were expecting Takhisis to kill him.
Then after he took Takhisis' place in the sky he probably no longer needed the moons.
Kind of off topic but I've always found the idea of gaining XP for non-combat kind of silly. In theory, someone could go all the way from level 1 to 20 (or higher) just by speaking the right words at the right time, gaining fighting abilities and whopping amounts of hit points along the way.
You could just go with my house system, which is No XP Ever. I don't botherwith 'em. Everyone levels up after every third or fourth session.
You could just go with my house system, which is No XP Ever. I don't botherwith 'em. Everyone levels up after every third or fourth session.
You know, I like that idea. With my Key of Destiny game, I'm following the book as a general guideline and awarding XP to match.
Guess I'm getting lazy in my old age. ;)
You would think the High God would have foreseen elevating Raistlin to godhood would cause the end of the world. But then again, maybe he didnt care. But still, if the Balance had to be maintained.. how was that Balance?
You would think the High God would have foreseen elevating Raistlin to godhood would cause the end of the world. But then again, maybe he didnt care. But still, if the Balance had to be maintained.. how was that Balance?
Maybe the High God already knew that Tas and Caramon would stop Raistlin?
Or, since there are several different timelines, maybe the High God also seeks to keep balance across these timelines as well (a la the Stargate dimensional variant).
Alright here we go. The gods of magic do not control magic, and do not grant magic, THEY ARE MAGIC, PURE MAGIC. If they could simply shut if off then renegades would not be a problem. Magic come from the god of magic just as light comes from the sun. Whe magic is denied to a WoHS i is probably just a god magi (presumably the god the wizard follows) casting an anti-magic pell (or something like it), in Palin and Raistlin's case (just before he returned prior to the chaos war) it was made permanent. ow when the gods left, the moons (which is the source of the power and of course the gods of magic themselves) his power source was removed. Hence, all "wizards" lost the ability o cast spells.
What does this have to do with this thread? The gods of magic could not have simply stripted Raistlin of his ability to cast magic.
Ok.. sorry I was drawing a map... :D
On the subject of Tasslehoff Burrfoot being an epic character or not...
Tasslehoff was adventuring before Raistlin cast his first spell...
Tasslehoff was adventuring before he met Flint and Tanis...
Tasslehoff was adventuring in the years following the War of the Lance while Caramon got fat and drunk and the All Mighty Master of Past and Present spent many long boring years sitting in his blasted Tower in Palanthas.
Tasslehoff was adventuring in the Abyss while Tanis made goo goo eyes at Laurana.
Tasslehoff was adventuring while Tika and Caramon were making babies and all the years while those babies grew into young men and women and he was also adventuring while Raistlin was being tortured in the Abyss... (BTW neither of those things get you experience points, no matter what that erotic roleplaying book says.)
Tasslehoff was adventuring when the Chaos War hit. Then he defeated Chaos... (Raist did not get the XP for that kill. He wasn't there.)
Tasslehoff was adventuring in the Age of Mortals while Raistlin sat around watching the Gods scatch thier heads over their missing world.
And I'm not even sure anyone can say how much adventuring he did with the Time Travel Device.
So, in my humble opinion Tasslehoff is "beyond" epic and has done more seen more in and turn gained more XP than any of the Heroes by the time he finally passed on... (assuming he did) How can anyone believe that he would be anything less than Raist in levels? :D
The cavalry has arrived. :fight!:
:evillaugh Don't you just love to see that kender jumping out of the tree swinging wildly with his hoopak, taking down those goblins before they have a chance to be scared.
Time to break out the kender celebration punch (recipe in "Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home"), cause it's gonna be a long night.
How can anyone believe that he [Tas] would be anything less than Raist in levels? :D
Have you read the Dragonlance novels? Any of them? If you have then you'd know that the idea of Tas as some kind of uber-epic level kender just isn't the way he's written in the novels.
Personally I think people are too obsessed with the idea of 'epic' these days and the realisation that their favourite character is less than level 278 just frustrates them beyond belief.
The Tasslehoff Burrfoot as written in the Dragonlance novels wasn't epic by any stretch of the imagination. He wasn't even high level. Stick him at level 10 and you'd be overdoing his abilities.
Raistlin was the uber mage. He killed high level mages by the dozen, he killed Fistandantilus, he killed the Gods. He was so powerful that a group of high level wizards were too scared of him to move against him as a whole. The idea that Tas was higher level is pretty ridiculous.
Have you read the Dragonlance novels? Any of them?
Uhmm.. yeah one or two, heh.
If you have then you'd know that the idea of Tas as some kind of uber-epic level kender just isn't the way he's written in the novels.
Ok, please explain to me how an uber-epic level kender is written. (See below before you respond to this.)
Personally I think people are too obsessed with the idea of 'epic' these days and the realisation that their favourite character is less than level 278 just frustrates them beyond belief.
I never said that. Ok, so yeah I said "beyond epic", but I was being sarcastic.
I was saying that I don't believe there is any way Tas could be anything less than the same level as Raistlin based on the amount of adventuring that one did versus the other. If you look at that, Tas outranks any of the Heroes in gaining experience, no matter if he was written that way or not. You're basing Tas's level on the fact that a novel was never written where Tas killed a dragon or a god (I'm going to assume that the fact that he stabbed Chaos has nothing to do with it because anyone can roll a natural 20) so you are inferring that because Tas never leapt a small building he "couldn't" leap it. I believe he could, he just never needed to. Maybe during the War of Souls Tas could have simple walked outside the Citadel of Light and started slaying dragons, but instead he was inside with Palin messing with the Time Travel Device. He was staying true to his nature.
The Tasslehoff Burrfoot as written in the Dragonlance novels wasn't epic by any stretch of the imagination. He wasn't even high level. Stick him at level 10 and you'd be overdoing his abilities.
Believe me, this is not a fan boy crush on Taslehoff Burrfoot, depite the evidence to the contrary. I'm only basing this on the fact that as far as adventuring and gaining experience goes, I fail to see how Raistlin continued to climb in level while he sat around in a tower and Tasslehoff was adventuring his whole life. Again, I'm not saying that Tas was uber powerful, I'm saying that despite the fact that Tas didn't go around "killing huge things" in the novels (which apparently seems to be the only way you are gauging how high level someone is) I have no problem with seeing him as 10/Rogue 10/Handler. I don't know if you've read the Handler PrC in the WotL, but it's not exactly focused on combat. It's focused on luck, hiding and picking pockets. All things that Tas was known for and exhibited in the novels.
Raistlin was the uber mage. He killed high level mages by the dozen, he killed Fistandantilus, he killed the Gods. He was so powerful that a group of high level wizards were too scared of him to move against him as a whole. The idea that Tas was higher level is pretty ridiculous.
I just don't happen to believe that when a 1st level guard tells a 20th level kender that they are not allowed in the town that the kender says "Get out of my way. I'm way to powerful for you to mess with," and walk's past them. No, the kender acts like a kender and finds a different way in. So I don't see how an epic kender is supposed to be written any differently than a low-level kender in the novels. They will act just the same in my opinion. The fact that he never "killed anything huge" doesn't mean a thing. But I can tell you he probably had more people afraid of him than Raistlin ever had. :D
I agree that in the novels Tas never did anything "epic" but I don't happen to believe that means he could not be epic and that is the fundamental difference in our approaches to this issue, heh. I guess I'm taking into account a history of the character that can not be substantiated AND a "role-playing aspect" and you are going by the black and white facts that are in the novels. I can see where you're coming from, but I just don't happen to agree.
Have you read the Dragonlance novels? Any of them?
I find it so funny when someone comes back with this response to a guy who has been a major contributor, both as game designer and cartographer, to Sovereign Press' game books. Not to mention being the guy behind the Kencyclopedia, as well as the foremost authority on kender out there.
Yeah, I would say Kipper knows his stuff. ;)
Pointless debate anyway as:
Show
Tas' dead in any case
I guess this is the sort of discussion that could go on and on forever and a day without any kind of agreement being reached.
Exactly. We all have our opinions based on our points of view, which comes from how we perceive these characters from the novels to how we view game design in particular.
Sean, those are some good points on whether Tas is epic or not. You've given me much to think about.
Sean, those are some good points on whether Tas is epic or not. You've given me much to think about.
Psst. Male kender rogue 5/handler 10/horizon walker 5. Don't tell anybody.
Cheers,
Cam
I guess this is the sort of discussion that could go on and on forever and a day without any kind of agreement being reached. So shall we agree to disagree on the subject and leave it at that?
Yeah, I can agree to that. :DPsst. Male kender rogue 5/handler 10/horizon walker 5. Don't tell anybody.
What's a "horizon walker"?
What's a "horizon walker"?
From the SRD:
"...At each level, the Horizon Walker adds a new terrain environment to their repertoire from those given below. Terrain mastery gives a horizon walker a bonus on checks involving a skill useful in that terrain, or some other appropriate benefit. A horizon walker also knows how to fight dangerous creatures typically found in that terrain, gaining a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against creatures with that terrain mentioned in the Environment entry of their descriptions. The horizon walker only gains the bonus if the creature description specifically lists the terrain type.
Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not..."
From the SRD:
That all sounds very familiar...where is it from? Is it the DMG?
That all sounds very familiar...where is it from? Is it the DMG?
Yup.
Yup.
Thanks Jonesy!
I can see rogue or handler. Not sure how horizon walker fits Tas...
Since he's been everywhere, he would be familiar with every terrain. And the bonuses include swimming, fatigue, hide, listen, spot, climb, move silently...
The only problem I see is that the only planar mastery that seems to fit him is shifting. But maybe he's been to the other kinds as well. :D
Edit: but I see Cam suggested only five levels of it anyway.
Since he's been everywhere, he would be familiar with every terrain. And the bonuses include swimming, fatigue, hide, listen, spot, climb, move silently...
Bingo. It's a perfect kender prestige class. And Tas has been everywhere.
Cheers,
Cam
The only problem I see is that the only planar mastery that seems to fit him is shifting. But maybe he's been to the other kinds as well. :D
I could see Trapspringer doing that, at least if you go by the idea that he's a real character and not a kender tale.
I guess I could see Tas having levels as a lower-level horizon walker. *shrugs*
Edit: but I see Cam suggested only five levels of it anyway.
Yeah...but it does say that you can add choices where appropriate. And I could see Tas having at least one more level in Horizon Walker (I think it's an excellent class for him!). I mean...after all...he has been to the Abyss at least twice. Then there was that freaky trip to the dimension where the dragons were trapped.
Then there was that freaky trip to the dimension where the dragons were trapped.
They call that the moon. ;)