I actually like the idea behind these 3 level racial classes and was wondering what others thought of including/using them in DS?
I wouldn't mind working on it, just got a few other things I want to do first.
There is a racial class level progression for the D&D basic races - human, elf - as a free download on Malhavoc Press' site. Check it out.
Or you can scrap that and go with the Athas.org version. :D
Something else that I think would be cool would be racial substitution levels, similar to what's in the Races of * books.
I've briefly looked at some of those classes. I'm familiar with the dwarven fighter. Maybe I'll tackle something along those lines at a later date.
I agree that they are a pretty damn cool option.
I'll start brainstorming some ideas for a few of the core DS racial paragons and post them here for critique.
Whilst driving home from a RPing game last night, I had what I thought was a good idea. Racial Paragon/Substitution classes could each have a level which gave the character psionic abilities. This could reflect a race's natural inclination to certain psi-specialties from past editions as well as the sacred cow of Wild Talents.
Racial substitution levels could offer some really buff psionic powers at higher levels which would allow a character to have psionic disintegration or psionic teleport as the only power they know ie similar to how things could be in 2nd ed.
Racial substitution levels could offer some really buff psionic powers at higher levels which would allow a character to have psionic disintegration or psionic teleport as the only power they know ie similar to how things could be in 2nd ed.
That would be a bit unbalancing I would think. If a character wants to disintegrate or teleport via psionics, they should take the appropriate psionic class to do so. Giving those powers in a 3 level class would be a tad over board IMO.
That would be a bit unbalancing I would think. If a character wants to disintegrate or teleport via psionics, they should take the appropriate psionic class to do so. Giving those powers in a 3 level class would be a tad over board IMO.
racial substitution levels substitute for various sorts of levels, so continuing my example, a racial substitution level at level 12 that gave teleport or level 14 that gave disintegrate is not unbalancing when by that stage the party spell chuckers and mind messers likely have had these abilities for some time.
Anyway, game balance aside I thought I should throw the idea out there on the intarweb.
Racial substitution levels could offer some really buff psionic powers at higher levels which would allow a character to have psionic disintegration or psionic teleport as the only power they know ie similar to how things could be in 2nd ed.
I agree with Sysane that this could be a little too powerful, though not unbalancing. To be honest, the new PC in 2nd ed with Disintegrate and Solften (and TK?), or with a Telepathic Power, Telepathy, and Contact, both of whom would have more powers and PSP's than a new psionicist, was something that I don't really like. It made it suck to actually play a psion.
I like the idea of giving out psionic powers in substitution levels, though. A racial substituion level could replace a feat or feat-like power with something that's psionically oriented, like a psionic feat or a psionic power and enough power points to use it once (which is pretty much what you said in the above quote). Instead of making them more powerful at higher levels, I'd try to focus on making the ability fit both the class and the race as closely as possible. Elven rangers would try to focus their mind into learning how to run faster, etc. It might be tough to come up with mulitiple different powers or feats for each race-class combination you decide to come up with, though.
EDIT: cut out stuff about racial paragon levels because it didn't belong in this post. Added more explanation as to what I was thinking of re: racial sustitution levels.
Its like a wizard wanting to be able to specialize in a weapon. To do so they should have to be a fighter or a PrC that allows them to specialize.
Thats just IMO though.
I just think that if a PC wants to be able to use high level psionic powers they should need to take a psionic class in order to do so.
Its like a wizard wanting to be able to specialize in a weapon. To do so they should have to be a fighter or a PrC that allows them to specialize.
Thats just IMO though.
From my perspective, psionics is so ingrained in Athasian flora and fauna, that I don't think it unreasonable that a rare few individuals sometimes spontaneously manifest the ability to do some serious psionic butt kicking without showing any previous signs in that regard. I think that is what Wild Talents are really all about.
regards
Shaun, the cute and fluffy DM
From my perspective, psionics is so ingrained in Athasian flora and fauna, that I don't think it unreasonable that a rare few individuals sometimes spontaneously manifest the ability to do some serious psionic butt kicking without showing any previous signs in that regard. I think that is what Wild Talents are really all about.
There is a psionic template in the XPH that can be added to beings who are naturally adept in the will and way. I'd take a look at that when you have a chance. I think it fits with your concept.
There is a psionic template in the XPH that can be added to beings who are naturally adept in the will and way. I'd take a look at that when you have a chance. I think it fits with your concept.
The psionic template does however fulfill most of what I envisage wild talents to incorporate I agree. However, convincing your GM to let you take a substitution level at level 12 is one thing, convincing him to give you a template is another as taking on a template post character creation often creates a few issues regarding game balance.
What's nice about racial paragon classes is that they all seem to only have 3 levels. This means that you can very easily make up an NPC who's tough enough to survive on athas (3rd level) without having to choose a class for them to take - just give them all three levels of their racial paragon class.
This is starting to sound pretty cool. I wish I had more time to work on it.
That 3 level progression would be the proverbial Wild Talent a lot of people have been wanting, i.e. that goes beyong psionic feats and a 1st-level power, if any.
Hey guys, paragon or no paragon levels for DS races, wouldn't it be cool if there were either a 3 level PrC, or a generic 3 level paragon class that can be taken by any of the Rebirth races? inlcuding savage halflings?
That 3 level progression would be the proverbial Wild Talent a lot of people have been wanting, i.e. that goes beyong psionic feats and a 1st-level power, if any.
I was thinking of this as well, but then thought wouldn't a character be better served by just taking 3 levels of a core psionic class vs a 3 level psionic paragon?
But for flavor it could be better to take levels in that paragon class.
We can also have flavor and mechanics meet halfway: confer something at each level that makes that wild talent even more powerful than what a psion of the same level could pull off using that same power.
Remember that "teleporter" female elven gladiator Rikus fought in The Verdant Passage? That power could be dimension door, a 4th-level power. She was a wild talent.
In game terms: true.
But for flavor it could be better to take levels in that paragon class.
We can also have flavor and mechanics meet halfway: confer something at each level that makes that wild talent even more powerful than what a psion of the same level could pull off using that same power.
I don't know. When I think of a character that uses a power more effective than a psion the Wilder seems to come to mind.
For the athasian illithids I used racial levels, Malhavoc's own paragon class concept, which is basically the same.
There is a racial class level progression for the D&D basic races - human, elf - as a free download on Malhavoc Press' site. Check it out.
i could not find this. could you point me in the right direction?
rigon
After some further thought, I think all or at least most levels in DS racial paragon classes should give Power Points. This at least lets characters start taking psionic feats. I am in favour of this over giving +1 manifester level.
It would only grant a +1 manifester level to those that already have a manifester class. For those who don't have a manifester level but a wild or hidden talent (as granted by the feats) it would grant the ability to gain powers and power points as a psyhic warrior at levels 2 and 3 of the three level paragon class.
It would only grant a +1 manifester level to those that already have a manifester class. For those who don't have a manifester level but a wild or hidden talent (as granted by the feats) it would grant the ability to gain powers and power points as a psyhic warrior at levels 2 and 3 of the three level paragon class.
That is starting to sound okay now, I will reserve further comments on this until I start seeing first drafts. Since no one else has yet, if I get a chance tommorow evening I will take a stab at two or three of these (say half giant, dwarf and thri-kreen) and post here for comments.
i could not find this. could you point me in the right direction?
rigon
http://www.montecook.com/arch_stuff48.html
Look at the wording for this item:
Mounting such a gem in a palm bracelet causes any spell with the fire descriptor cast by the wearer to have the save DC against it increased by +1. If no saving throw applies or is allowed, it instead adds +1 to the effective caster level of the effect.
That is starting to sound okay now, I will reserve further comments on this until I start seeing first drafts. Since no one else has yet, if I get a chance tommorow evening I will take a stab at two or three of these (say half giant, dwarf and thri-kreen) and post here for comments.
I've already been working on drafts for all the core DS races. I'm almost done with the mul minus the fluff text. I'll post what I have sometime today.
Those levels can't tie in to efective manifester levels since we can't guaranty everyone will take levels in a manifesting class, but it can give a wild talent and then increase the DC of the power, or allow for more uses per day, or PPs.
Look at the wording for this item:
Thats how the other paragon classes from UA are writen. The elf for example grants a +1 to effective wizard level for determining spell effects. If the elf character doesn't have any wizard levels that ability of the paragon is wasted.
What I'm proposing is that at levels 2 and 3 of the paragon it grants a +1 manifester bonus to those that already have a manifester class. Otherwise if they are not a manifester class but have a hidden talent it would grant them the powers and power points of a psyhic warrior.
So having power points and a power from their hidden talent and then receiving 2 effective levels of psyhic warrior for powers and powers point purposes would increase a wild talent character's potential greatly. Granted, if the character doesn't take the hidden talent feat this ability of the paragon would also not benefit them. I guess it would take into account on whether a DM has PCs start with a free feat of hidden talent or if the PC has to take it on their own.
Mul Paragon
Hit Die: 1d10
Skill Points at each Level: 2 +Int modifer
[HTML]Table: Mul Paragon
Lvl BAB FortRef Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Divided Ancestry,Physical Prowess
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Damage Reduction 1/-,Fast Healer
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability Boost (Str +2)[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mul paragons are proficent with all simple and martial weapons, and with light and medium armors.
Divided Ancestry (Ex): Unlike other racial paragons, mul's can take levels in more than one racial paragon class. After gaining at least one level as a mul paragon, a character can take either dwarf paragon levels or human paragon levels (but not both).
Physical Prowess (Ex): A mul paragon may add his class level as a racial bonus on checks for performing a physical action that extends over a period of time. This bonus stacks with the mul tireless racial trait and the Endurance feat.
Damage Reduction (Ex): At 2nd level, a mul paragon gains the ability to shrug off minor blows. Subtract 1 from damage the mul takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. This ability replaces the mul's nonlethal damage resistance racial trait.
Fast Healer (Ex): A 2nd level mul paragon is able to heal naturally at twice the normal rate, recovering 2 hit points per level per day.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a mul paragon's Strength score increases by 2 points.
.I like this - more or less the kind of things I had in mind. Looking forward to seeing the material on the other classes. Maybe you wanna post the crunchy bits before doing fluff?
Thanks. I'll post the other classes as well. I'll repost them with the fluff again later. I should have the Athasian dwarf done within a day or two.
1) I am debating whether giving medium armour is appropriate or not... can you explain reasoning why?
2) Divided Ancestry is AWESOME! go you!
3) It should be commented as to whether Fast Healer also doubles the rate that subdual and ability damage is healed. An ordinary person heals 1 ability point per day, and 1 subdual per level per hour. Does this power stack with the feat that improves your natural healing in the XPHB?
4) No psionics?
1) I am debating whether giving medium armour is appropriate or not... can you explain reasoning why?
Most muls are trained as gladiators so it stood to reason that the paragon would have training in it as well.
2) Divided Ancestry is AWESOME! go you!
Most of the "half races" got this as a paragon ability. It was really a no brainer.
3) It should be commented as to whether Fast Healer also doubles the rate that subdual and ability damage is healed. An ordinary person heals 1 ability point per day, and 1 subdual per level per hour. Does this power stack with the feat that improves your natural healing in the XPHB?
I'd say it only works for real damage for balance issues. I don't see a problem with it stacking with the Rapid Metabolism feat.
4) No psionics?
I'm still working on the mechanics of that portion of the paragons.
Most of the "half races" got this as a paragon ability. It was really a no brainer.
Really? I read these once only sometime last year when it came out in Australia and completely forgot about this ability. I suppose I should offer credit to the original writers then. Go them! They are awesome!
Dwarf Paragon
Hit Die: 1d10
Skill Points at each Level: 2 +Int modifer
[HTML]Table: Dwarf Paragon
Lvl BAB FortRef Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Craft Expertise,Oral Tradition
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Dwarven Tenacity,Save Bonus
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability Boost (Con +2)[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dwarf paragons are proficent with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor, and shields (but not with tower shields).
Craft Expertise (Ex):A dwarf paragon may add his class level as a racial bonus to a single Craft skill.
Oral Tradition (Ex): At 1st level, a dwarf paragon receives a +4 racial bonus on Knowledge checks pertaining to dwarven history and folklore.
Dwarven Tenacity (Ex):At 2nd level, a dwarf paragon's morale bonus on all checks related to their focus increases by +1.
Save Bonus (Ex): A 2nd level dwarf paragon's racial bonus on saves against posion and against spells and spell-like effects increases by 1.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a dwarf paragon's Constitution score increases by 2 points.
Here's the rough draft for the Athasian Dwarf Paragon class. Comments are welcome.
Excellent...
Dwarven Tenacity (Ex):At 2nd level, a dwarf paragon receives an addtional +1 morale bonus on all checks related to their focus.
I don't think multiple morale bonuses stack with each other...
Maybe this could be rephrased as follows:
At 2nd level, a dwarf paragon's morale bonus on all checks related to their focus increases by +1.
Excellent...
I don't think multiple morale bonuses stack with each other...
Maybe this could be rephrased as follows:
At 2nd level, a dwarf paragon's morale bonus on all checks related to their focus increases by +1.
Thanks.
I'll change the wording on the morale bonus.
A player is giving up potentially a feat or spellcasting level for a +1 bonus to a craft and another bonus to knowledge skills. Neither of which come up in every adventure.
I would be in favour of having the bonus apply to all craft skills, or having the bonus equal +2 per class level for a single skill. The knowledge bonus I can't think of anything better than what you already got.
regards
Shaun
Elf Paragon
Hit Dice: D8
Skill Points: 4+Int Modifer
[HTML]Table: Elf Paragon
Lvl BAB FortRef Will Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Elfsight,Elven Guile
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Increased Speed,Sneak Attack +1d6
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Ability Boost (Dex +2)[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Elf paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor.
Elfsight (Ex): An elf paragon has exceptional visual acuity. Her racial bonus on Search and Spot checks increases to +4. In addition, an elf paragon's low-light vision increases in range, allowing her see three times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination.
Elven Guile (Ex): An elf paragon may add his class level as a racial bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimate checks.
Increased Speed (Ex): A 2nd level elf paragon's base land speed increases by +10.
Sneak Attack(Ex): At 2nd level, an elf paragon gains the Sneak Attack ability. This funtions exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. If the character gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, an elf paragon's Dexterity score increases by 2 points.
the 1st level looks kinda weak.
A player is giving up potentially a feat or spellcasting level for a +1 bonus to a craft and another bonus to knowledge skills. Neither of which come up in every adventure.
I would be in favour of having the bonus apply to all craft skills, or having the bonus equal +2 per class level for a single skill. The knowledge bonus I can't think of anything better than what you already got.
regards
Shaun
Most of the paragon classes from UA start out weak and are bottom loaded with the better abilities at levels 2 and 3. Giving a bonus to all Craft skills might be a bit over board as well as the +2 per class level. I'd be willing to alter it to apply to two craft or maybe even three skills rather than one.
That seems kind of tough.
I can see why you would remove the two '+1 caster level' with the huge social stigma against spellcasting, but there are arguments for leaving at least one level in there... elves are nomads, they can always go somewhere else when the local plantlife turns to ash so the social stigma has never been as strong amongst the elvish tribes.
Beyond that, Elvin Guile and Increased speed seem quite appropriate.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the elf paragon lost two levels of spellcasting for... 2 additional skill points a level and +10 movement?
That seems kind of tough.
I can see why you would remove the two '+1 caster level' with the huge social stigma against spellcasting, but there are arguments for leaving at least one level in there... elves are nomads, they can always go somewhere else when the local plantlife turns to ash so the social stigma has never been as strong amongst the elvish tribes.
Beyond that, Elvin Guile and Increased speed seem quite appropriate.
Elves on Athas favored class is rouge, not wizard as they are on other worlds. Hence the drop of the spell casting ability of the paragon.
Elves on Athas favored class is rouge, not wizard as they are on other worlds. Hence the drop of the spell casting ability of the paragon.
True, but compared to the standard elvin paragon, this one seems weaker, that was my point.
True, but compared to the standard elvin paragon, this one seems weaker, that was my point.
But this is truer to the Athasian elf than the UA elf paragon. Their aptitude for magic is the same as the other races on Athas.
Aarakocra Paragon
Hit Die: D8
Skill Points: 2+Int Modifer
[HTML]Table: Aarakocra Paragon
Lvl BAB FortRef Will Special Spells per Day
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Keen Eyed,No Claustrophobia -
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Expert Flyer +1 Level of Cleric
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Ability Boost (Dex +2) +1 Level of Cleric[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Aarakocra paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and light armor.
Spells per Day: At 2nd and 3rd level, an aarakocra gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in cleric. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (cleric features, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of aarakocra paragon to his level in cleric, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If an aarakocra has no levels in cleric, this class feature has no effect.
Keen Eyed (Ex): At 1st level, an aarakocra paragon's racial bonus on Spot checks increases to +8.
No Claustrophobia:An aarakocra paragon loses his race's fear of enclosed spaces and no longer suffers a morale penalty on rolls when in doors or underground.
Expert Flyer (Ex): At 2nd level, an aarakocra paragon's flight maneuverability improves from average to good.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, an aarakocra paragon's Dexterity score increases by 2 points.
Good work, Sysane. I especially like the elf. I have a small suggestion to give the elf paragon a small boost: Maybe the speed bonus or weapon focus could be replaced with a +1d6 sneak attack, to emphasize that the favored class is rogue. If you don't change it, I'm happy with the way it is.
Thanks :D
Hmmmm, I like that sneak attack idea.
I replaced the weapon focus with the sneak attack ability. Thanks for the input
Pterran Paragon
Hit Dice: D8
Skill Points: 2+ Int Modifier
[HTML]Table: Pterran Paragon
Lvl BAB FortRef Will Special Spells per Day
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Diplomat,Mindlink 1/day -
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Natural Armor +1 Level to Druid or Ranger
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Ability Boost(Int,Wis,or Chr +2)+1 Level to Druid or Ranger[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Pterran paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and light armor.
Spells per Day: At 2nd and 3rd level, a pterran paragon gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a druid or ranger. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (druid or ranger features, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of pterran paragon to his level in druid or ranger, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a pterran paragon has no levels in druid or ranger, this class feature has no effect.
Diplomat (Ex): A pterran paragon receives a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks.
Mindlink (Su): At 1st level, a pterran paragon gains the ability to Mindlink with a reptile once per day with a manifester level equal to his pterran paragon level.
Natural Armor (Ex): At 2nd level a pterran paragon’s scales provide a +1 natural armor bonus.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a pterran paragon's Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score increases by 2 points.
A Pterran who chooses the life-path of Telepath does not get much out of the racial paragon class. Neither does it add to his manifester level, nor does he get a bonus to his primary attribut (Intelligence).
I'm working on a psionic mechanic for all the paragons. Basically allowing any paragon that has a Spells per Day ability to swap that out for a manifester level. It will also benefit wild talents as well.
As for the Pterran and Intelligence, the way that paragon classes work is that they boost the races primary stat. Int is not a stat that Pterran's start off with an adjustment in. Hence why I didn't included it as an Ability score to be bumped.
I may rethink that though due to half elves and humans being able to add a +2 to any stat at 3rd level of their paragons.
Thanks :D
Hmmmm, I like that sneak attack idea.
I replaced the weapon focus with the sneak attack ability. Thanks for the input
Elf looks much more fun now.
Elf looks much more fun now.
Thanks
Now I have to work on the half giant and the thri kreen. I don't think there's much that needs to be done for half elf, human, and halfling. The UA paragons for them would still fit DS nicely IMO.
my only comment is the same for both. They look fine.
Aarakocra looks particularly attractive as it lets a character overcome most of his race's inbuilt penalties.
Quick question: Why +1 cleric/druid or ranger spellcasting level rather than +1 divine caster level? Concern over templars?
my only comment is the same for both. They look fine.
Aarakocra looks particularly attractive as it lets a character overcome most of his race's inbuilt penalties.
Quick question: Why +1 cleric/druid or ranger spellcasting level rather than +1 divine caster level? Concern over templars?
Thanks for the directions, Pennarin.
Quick question: Why +1 cleric/druid or ranger spellcasting level rather than +1 divine caster level? Concern over templars?
I was concerned about templar, as well as cleric. Pterrans follow one of three life paths, druid, psion, or ranger. Making it for all divine spell casters would have made the paragon stray to far from the pterran flavor IMO.
A Pterran who chooses the life-path of Telepath does not get much out of the racial paragon class. Neither does it add to his manifester level, nor does he get a bonus to his primary attribut (Intelligence).
Took your advice and added that Intelligence could be boosted as well.
Thanks for the input
Half Giant Paragon
Hit Dice: D12
Skill Points: 2+ Int Modifier
[HTML]Table: Half Giant Paragon
Lvl BAB FortRef Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Daunting Stature,Imitated Inspiration
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Rock Throwing
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability Boost(Str +2)[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Half giant paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and light and medium armors.
Daunting Stature (Ex):A half giant paragon's size grants them a +4 racial bonus on Intimidate checks against medium or smaller sized creatures.
Imitated Inspiration (Ex): Once per day, when imitating an ally that is within line of sight a half-giant paragon gains a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls and skill checks for a number of rounds equal to the imitated individual's Charisma bonus.
Rock Throwing (Ex): At 2nd level, the half giant paragon is an accomplished rock thrower and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. The half giant paragon can hurl rocks weighing 40 to 50 pounds each (Small objects) up to a 100 feet range increment.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a half giant paragon's Strength score increases by 2 points.
Here's the half giant folks! Comments are welcome.
Half giant comments:
1) d12 hit points is a lot. Giants get d8s, the half giant gets d8s for their 2HD at creation. I think this is too much, especially when combined with very good BAB progression.
2) Imitated inspiration is a cool ability, but I think it needs more explicit definition regarding what a 'charismatic individual' is. Otherwise someone may find themselves fielding the question "Is the opponent we are fighting charismatic DM?" or such.
3) +2 Str and good BAB and 1d12 hitpoints make level 3 rock out! So, I am thinking this is too strong a level.
regards
Shaun
Half giant comments:
1) d12 hit points is a lot. Giants get d8s, the half giant gets d8s for their 2HD at creation. I think this is too much, especially when combined with very good BAB progression.
The hit die is based on the favored class of a half giant. Most of UA paragons work in this way. UA also suggests that when creating paragons for races with a level adjustment of +1 or more that it is acceptable for the class to be a little better than the +0 level adjustment ones.
2) Imitated inspiration is a cool ability, but I think it needs more explicit definition regarding what a 'charismatic individual' is. Otherwise someone may find themselves fielding the question "Is the opponent we are fighting charismatic DM?" or such.
Good point. I will add the line of "allied charismatic individual".
3) +2 Str and good BAB and 1d12 hitpoints make level 3 rock out! So, I am thinking this is too strong a level.
Like I said before, UA encourages that paragons for more powerful races to have an edge to them. I may drop the hit die to a d10 if others feel the same though.
Thri Kreen Paragon
Hit Dice: D8
Skill Points: 4+ Int Modifier
[HTML]Table: Thri Kreen Paragon
Lvl BAB FortRef Will Special Spells per Day
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Accomplished Hunter,Toxicity -
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Evasion +1 level to Ranger
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Ability Boost(Dex +2) +1 level to Ranger[/HTML]
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Thri Kreen paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons.
Spells per Day: At 2nd and 3rd level, a thri kreen paragon gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in ranger. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (ranger features, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of thri kreen paragon to his level in ranger, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
If a thri kreen paragon has no levels in ranger, this class feature has no effect.
Accomplished Hunter (Ex):At 1st level, a thri kreen paragon gains a +2 racial bonus on Survival checks for purposes of hunting and tracking.
Toxicity (Ex): A thri kreen paragon adds his class level to the save DC of his poison bite.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level, a thri kreen paragon gains evasion. If exposed to any effect that normally allows him to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, he takes no damage with a successful saving throw. The evasion ability can only be used if the thri kreen paragon is wearing light armor or no armor.
Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a thri kreen paragon's Dexterity score increases by 2 points.
Sysane, will you make paragon level progressions for every ToA playable race ? i.e. b'rohgs, tareks, baazrag, belgoi, ...
Once I finish up the "core" DS races I'd be willing to do more paragons if the demand and interest for them is there.
Thri Kreen Paragon
Accomplished Hunter (Ex):At 1st level, a thri kreen paragon gains a +2 racial bonus on Survival checks for purposes of hunting and tracking.
+2 to one skill is not enough to me. +2 also to one/some of hide, move silent, spot, listen would be appropriate as hunting involves not just tracking something down, but getting close enough to attack it and drop it.
Everything else looks fine. I think Evasion is appropriate, but very powerful.
Another suggestion could be to provide additional weapon familiarities for those rarer kreen weapons that don't frequently see the light of day.
+2 to one skill is not enough to me. +2 also to one/some of hide, move silent, spot, listen would be appropriate as hunting involves not just tracking something down, but getting close enough to attack it and drop it.
How about stealing from the sahuagin and also giving the paragon kreen +2 to profession (hunter). [now everyone can post a "Yuck, a Profession!" answer]
Another suggestion could be to provide additional weapon familiarities for those rarer kreen weapons that don't frequently see the light of day.
I also thought about that, but there are no rules for them right now. I looked through the weapon list of athas.org, and there are no exotic kreen weapons except the two every kreen is familiar with.
I looked through the weapon list of athas.org, and there are no exotic kreen weapons except the two every kreen is familiar with.
There are also the lajav, ko' and zerka. I'd suggest that either the lajav or zerka would make good choices.
+2 to one skill is not enough to me. +2 also to one/some of hide, move silent, spot, listen would be appropriate as hunting involves not just tracking something down, but getting close enough to attack it and drop it.
I originally had it as a +4 but thought that was a bit much considering the +1 BAB, +2 to Fort & Ref saves, and the Toxicity ability all in one level.
Plus the bonus was more to help with hunting thru a Survival check, as detailed under "hunting and foraging" part of the skill, not the actual act of stalking and killing an elf or similar creature.
I'll reconsider, but most UA paragons don't give a racial skill bonus above +2.
I originally had it as a +4 but thought that was a bit much considering the +1 BAB, +2 to Fort & Ref saves, and the Toxicity ability all in one level.
You may have just convinced me you are right, as almost certainly a player will take second level for evasion.
What I'm thinking is that paragons that have a "spells per day" ability may instead level up in a manifester class (if a manifester) rather than their respective caster class.
If not of a manifester class but a wild/hidden talent, the paragon may instead gain powers and power points of a wilder (a 1st level wilder at 2nd lvl of the paragon, and as a 2nd level at 3rd lvl of the paragon).
Thoughts and comments are welcome.
Now that I've laid down the basics for the DS racial paragons I'm trying to work out a manifester mechanic to work along with them.
What I'm thinking is that paragons that have a "spells per day" ability may instead level up in a manifester class (if a manifester) rather than their respective caster class.
If not of a manifester class but a wild/hidden talent, the paragon may instead gain powers and power points of a wilder (a 1st level wilder at 2nd lvl of the paragon, and as a 2nd level at 3rd lvl of the paragon).
Thoughts and comments are welcome.
You run into issues that not every class has spell casting, but most races are associated with certain psionic abilities.
Another suggestion is to give additional PPs and powers to anyone who has the feat wild talent or hidden talent for each level of their racial paragon class. This would have the advantage of making these feats and the racial paragon classes generally more attractive overall.
Another alternative is to create an alternate 2nd level for each of the racial paragon classes that gives them a psionic power or feat. This would substitute in place of level 2 of the relevant paragon level, ie PCs would not be able to acquire both.
I like my first suggestion better, but worry about game balance.
regards
Shaun, the cute and fluffy DM
You run into issues that not every class has spell casting, but most races are associated with certain psionic abilities.
Which races would those be? Its true that psionics are abundant on Athas, but no more than magic is on other worlds (i.e. Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms). Those paragons that lack the "spells per day ability" don't receive extra maigc powers on those worlds.
Another alternative is to create an alternate 2nd level for each of the racial paragon classes that gives them a psionic power or feat. This would substitute in place of level 2 of the relevant paragon level, ie PCs would not be able to acquire both.
I feel that a character would be better served by taking a level of psionic class in that case. Whats going to benefit you more? Taking 1 level of a weak alternate second level of a paragon or taking 1 level in psion?
Once I finish up the "core" DS races I'd be willing to do more paragons if the demand and interest for them is there.
Great!
Tareks and giths, IMO, are some of the most beloved non-core races, due to appearances in numerous novels and adventures.
Which races would those be? Its true that psionics are abundant on Athas, but no more than magic is on other worlds (i.e. Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms). Those paragons that lack the "spells per day ability" don't receive extra maigc powers on those worlds.
Hmmm, I have reread some stuff and have clarified some faulty memories. In several books, it points certain races towards certain groups of powers since their racial stat bonuses made them generally better in those areas (since psionic powers in 2nd and 3rd ed were based on different stats). I thought it said this more strongly than it does. I suppose what I am suggesting is that we try to keep that semi-flavour text true.
I feel that a character would be better served by taking a level of psionic class in that case. Whats going to benefit you more? Taking 1 level of a weak alternate second level of a paragon or taking 1 level in psion?
Which is why I favoured my first suggestion. I think my second suggestion plainly sucked, but thought I would offer everything I could think of at the time. What are your thoughts on my first idea?
What are your thoughts on my first idea?
Your first concept has merrit but I feel what I purposed originally is on the same lines of your idea. Granted, my idea would only benefit paragons with the "spells per day" ability.
As an additional mechanic I could include that paragons without the "spells per day" ability but that have the hidden or wild talent feat could also gain power points and powers of a wilder at the 2nd and 3rd levels of their paragon class.
Thoughts?
Your first concept has merrit but I feel what I purposed originally is on the same lines of your idea. Granted, my idea would only benefit paragons with the "spells per day" ability.
As an additional mechanic I could include that paragons without the "spells per day" ability but that have the hidden or wild talent feat could also gain power points and powers of a wilder at the 2nd and 3rd levels of their paragon class.
Thoughts?
I am in favour of both being available. So a paragon with "spells per day" and with the feat hidden talent could get "powers per day" AND get bonus hidden talent powers and PPs.
This would tend to create characters with a lot of low level abilities, so it would not be overpowering (I think).
I am in favour of both being available. So a paragon with "spells per day" and with the feat hidden talent could get "powers per day" AND get bonus hidden talent powers and PPs.
This would tend to create characters with a lot of low level abilities, so it would not be overpowering (I think).
Isn't that like double dipping? It should be either one or the other not both.
If your already of a manifester class and happen to be taking levels of a paragon with the "spells per day" ability you would get a "+1 to manifester class" instead. If your a wild talent of any paragon you would receive powers and power points of a wilder at 2nd and 3rd levels of the class.
I don't think its necessary, or balanced, for a wild talent to receive further benefit if their of a paragon that has the "spells per day" ability. If a character has both a wild talent as well as a manifester class (oddly enough) and in a paragon that has the "spells per day" ability the character would need to choose one or they other, they wouldn't benefit from both.
Why should a wild talent reap more of a benefit psionicly than a straight manifester by taking a paragon class? That doesn't seem to be balanced IMO.
Once I finish up the "core" DS races I'd be willing to do more paragons if the demand and interest for them is there.
Great job Sysane!
I'd like to ask for the nikaal and scrab paragons if you've got the time and ideas.
Thanks and continue your good work.
Great job Sysane!
I'd like to ask for the nikaal and scrab paragons if you've got the time and ideas.
Thanks and continue your good work.
Thank you.
I'll add the nikaal and the scarb to the list.
Comments and thoughts are encouraged!
Thri Kreen Paragon
Is this for all the 6 Kreen subraces, or only for the two nomad races?
Is this for all the 6 Kreen subraces, or only for the two nomad races?
I based it around the two nomad races. It can be applied to the other 4 varieties at the DM's option. I don't have any plans on making a paragon for each sub species of Kreen.
Why should a wild talent reap more of a benefit psionicly than a straight manifester by taking a paragon class? That doesn't seem to be balanced IMO.
hang on... straight manifesters would get +1 manifester level, wild and hidden talents would get extra PPs and powers. You would need to be both a trained manifester AND have the wild or hidden talent feat to get both bonuses.
I personally would not see an issue if a player wanted a character who was a wild or hidden talent who was also a trained manifester (read has levels in psion or psychic warrior) and wanted that character to develop both sides of their psychic ability without too big a loss to overal power (ie losing access to the higher level powers).
However, maybe what I proposed isn't the way to do that (multi-classing into wilder could more easily work... maybe).
Anyway, what you have written to date is solid. I just try to play the devil's advocate to make sure nothing is missed.
Anyway, what you have written to date is solid. I just try to play the devil's advocate to make sure nothing is missed.
No problem.
I'll do up a cleaner version of the paragon/psionics mechanic when I post the finished version of the DS paragon classes.
This way, we can have paragon muls which develop psychometabolic powers, pterrans paragons with an aptitude for telepathy, and so on. This reflects, as already said, the flavor of the setting, with all races being, in some way, psionic but inclined only for a little branch of psionics.
This is obvious a very rough sketch of an idea, but given just for contribute and constructive criticism
This is obvious a very rough sketch of an idea, but given just for contribute and constructive criticism
Not entirely a bad idea, but kind of close to what Dragon Mag was trying to do with its 3.5 DS conversion which turned off a lot of DS fans.
Just my 2 cp :P
True. For the core races, the Inborn Power racial feature is not completely appropriate (imho, it generates an inappropriate situation of racial carbon copies, which destroys customization among other things), but for the paragon classes probably it becomes usable, but substituting the fixed power with a range of possible selections, as suggested in my previous reply.
It has some merrit. I'll think it over. I do agree that it would be a neat twist for the paragon/psionic mechanic. The problem I'm having with it is that you only have 5 psionic disciplines to pair with each race. Not every race is going to have a clear cut match to one of the disciplines. What discipline would you tag to an aaracokra or a halfling? You could hand pick several powers for each race that would make sense for them to have, but thats when the trouble starts. You start to pin hole what races have what for powers which is more or less what Dragon Mag did with its conversion. See where I'm getting at? You start to have carbon copy syndrome.
I like the concept, but it has some flaws to it.
I do appreciate your input. Please continue to share anymore you might have
I think I'll use these in my upcoming DS Campaign, but one question. There was a reference to half-giants having d8's for hit die at char. creation...looking through both the XPH and Dragon #319, there are no references to racial HD for this race. Was it just a reference to 2E or what?
The racial hit die reference is pertaining to the athas.org's version of the half-giant which is what I've based these pargon classes from.