Athasian Cosmology - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Athasian Cosmology

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tykus
Jan 01, 2005 21:08:50 While the Dragon/Dungeon take on Athasian cosmology is a good starting point (no, I haven't seen DA at the time of this post), it seems incomplete. It seems to completely ignore the thri-kreen's religious outlook.

Mind you, I'm talking about some things mentioned in "Thri-Kreen of Athas," and I haven't looked at the book in years.

The kreen had belief in a place that reminded me of the Beastlands (gaa!, can you imagine an Athasian version to that plane?) and an actual hell (a cold one) that was called Cano (Cania, anyone?) inhabited by devils called gelugs (do I really need to spell it out for you?).

Any thoughts? Info?
#2
zombiegleemax
Jan 01, 2005 21:24:26 I think the Kreen may have immigrated to Athas from elsewhere, (the zik'chil sound just like the Xixchil from Spelljammer) hence their rudimentary and distorted knowledge of those particular outer planes. It's really the only logical explanation, because the Grey prevents transmigration of souls who are shuffled loose from the mortal coil on Athas to the outer planes.
#3
eric_anondson
Jan 01, 2005 23:16:20 I highly suggest ditching any attempt at making sense of Athasian cosmology within the Great Wheel/2e framework.

I did. And my Dark Sun is better for it.

I'd bet money the Dragon/Dungeon version did the same.

Regards,
Eric Anondson
#4
zombiegleemax
Jan 02, 2005 16:19:05 Yeah, Great Wheel was just a starting place, the example planes. Mostly becuase it's so similar to FR/GH setings. Not all settings need to work the same way, or be 100% complatable. If Dark Sun is differnt in all it's other ways, why does its cosmlogy need to be the same?
#5
zombiegleemax
Jan 02, 2005 16:35:30 What some other people on the boards and I were discussing is the possibility that the plane of Shadow, called the Black on Athas, which Athasians say seperates all that exists from all that does not, acts as kind of a dimensional barrier, seperating completely different realities, not just different planes. This is used in d20 Modern, and makes sense for a Dark SUn campaign, as it allows seamless integration of campaign worlds without messy planar explanations. Completely different realities can have completely different cosmologies, and Shadow is the most consistently present transitive plane in all campaign worlds.
#6
flip
Jan 03, 2005 14:31:42
I highly suggest ditching any attempt at making sense of Athasian cosmology within the Great Wheel/2e framework.

I did. And my Dark Sun is better for it.

I'd bet money the Dragon/Dungeon version did the same.

Mind you that what Eric developed made me bleed out my ears ...

Definately detailed. *grin*
#7
zombiegleemax
Jan 03, 2005 15:02:23 I was at a Gen Con back in '96 and someone asked Troy Denning what the Grey was at a Dark Sun seminar. He said that the Grey was he imagined what the Astral would be if there were no outer planes for the dead souls of Athas to go to.

There was more talk, but the jist of the conversation was since there are no Gods, there are no outer planes for them to live in. The souls hang out untill they dissolve. Strong souls, like Kalak's, can resist diffusing. And this state of affairs is what makes for the high undead content on Athas.

The Black I think was intentioned as the Shadow with no light at all.

Then there was the Planescape take on it that says the Grey was a product of an unusual Crystal Sphere.

My take on it is there is some sort of cosmic barrier that seperates Athas from the rest of the multiverse. This barrier can be breached, (see Dregoth Ascending and Black Spine) but it prevents the connection that the divine has with mortals. Since Athas has it's own elemental planes, (either because of the cosmic barrier or because all prime planes have their own, you pick) strong elemental powers and Athasian land spirits grew to fill the power vacuum. Rajaat and his Champions took that power from the elementals for themsleves during the cleansing wars.

As far as the Black goes I would say either that it is a corruption of the ethereal plane or a chunk of the plane of Shadow. Alot of the effects that are described in the book are ethereal-ish. But if it is a part of the demi-plane of shadow that is severed from the rest of the multiverse along with the Astral and the Outer planes, it would be finite in power as well. So I have a few fundametal questions to ask about this:

If the Black is the Shadow Plane of Athas, is there an Ethereal?
If there is no Ethereal does the Grey function as the location of the conduits of elemental power?
Could the Grey be the Ethereal and not part of the Astral?
If the Black is an Ethereal corruption, did it merge or get taken over by the plane of Shadow?
Is tha Black actually the Plane of Shadow and is an 'escape' from Athas?

The Demi-plane of Dread touched Athas, Kalidnay is there. Did the Demi-plane of Dread cut through the cosmic barrier? It seems so, so how? Kalidnay's Ziggurat?

The ability to grant spells denotes a command of mana that is normally attributed to the divine. Divine power pulls from the Outer planes to be burned in the Prime plane to perform magic. The Outer Planes have unlimited power reserves so this never upsets any balance of the cosmos. The Inner planes, although infinite in space have power levels in direct proportion to the power of the prime they represent. Rajaat and his champions (and elemental lords) are drawing divine-level power out of the finite power levels that are the inner planes to power their spells and transformations. This is the main reason why Athas is decaying. The Inner Planes have TREMENDOUS amounts of power in them, but it is finite as Athas is. Rajaat and his Champions are metaphorically driving a Hummer through a dried up oil field.

Now the presense of Gray Magic means that the power of the diffused souls in the grey can be tapped to make magic as well. There are finite dead souls making up the grey, uncountable there are so many, but still finite, so grey magic is leeching power from there as well.

Shadow magic draws from the Black. So depending on your interpretation of the Black you could say that it draws from the Shadow and is therefore infinite, or you can say that the Black is the plane of Shadow and the Etherial in a blender and because of the cosmic barrier is also finite.

So some fundimental questions need to be asked in order to understand the nature of the divine barrier for your campaign. I will use Thor as my divine example.

It is understood that no matter how hard an athasian prays to Thor on Athas, he will never be granted a single spell, or will he get first level spells based on his own conviction?
If an Athasian leaves Athas through Dregoth's portal, can he become a cleric of Thor and get spells?
If that Athasian returns to Athas as a Thor cleric, will he continue to recieve spells?
If a Thor cleric enters Athas, will he retain the spells he has memorized and still be able to cast them?
Will the Thor cleric be able to get spells in the vicinty of the portal or would he have to cross over to get more?
What if Thor was curious as to where his favorite Athasian Cleric went and sent an avatar through Dregoth's gate? Would it have divine magic in Athas? Could it grant spells? Could it even exist?
What is Thor himself tried to visit Dregoth's pad, once inside Athas, would he be cut off from his own divinity? Could he grant spells?

I would say there is no way outside divine magic can get inside the barrier around Athas. As to what would happen if a god entered athas himself... that I cannot say.
#8
zombiegleemax
Jan 03, 2005 15:03:56
Mind you that what Eric developed made me bleed out my ears ...

Definately detailed. *grin*

Is that somewhere I can read it?
#9
johndoe
Jan 03, 2005 18:28:43
Is that somewhere I can read it?

i would be interested in that one as well
so far ive found a netbook i think that was written by David Schwartz (with the help of this board) called 'Dark Sun Cosmology'
#10
flip
Jan 03, 2005 19:41:55
Is that somewhere I can read it?

How far back do your mail archives go?

Eric developed / presented it as part of a long-running discussion of cosmology on the athas.org staff list ... ooh, I was still in college at the time, so four, five years ago. I only remember a bit of it, but it involved a lot of ascii art, and messages running into the 10's of kilobytes ... given that my interest in planar stuff has never been terribly strong, my eyes kinda glazed through the whole discussion.

Since I've gone through at least two hard-drive crashes since then, I've got no archives of the discussion. Eric's probably evolved stuff since then, and since he's here, I'll shut up now. ;)
#11
johndoe
Jan 03, 2005 20:41:14 lets wait on Eric to give an answer then :P
#12
eric_anondson
Jan 03, 2005 21:15:40
Mind you that what Eric developed made me bleed out my ears ...

Definately detailed. *grin*

I believe I'll take that as a compliment. ;)

As flip said, much of what I talked about was in the early athas.org private email list. Indeed, dozens and dozens of posts, rather then a single post. Of course, it was only the discussion, not a full out presentation of everything what I thought could work.

What I was considering was so thorough, that much of the magic system needed fine-tuning. As I was on the spells and psionics team then, this was right up my alley. I kept versions of each spell tailored for my own DS cosmology. I had also just done a scouring of the Prism Pentad for planar references, and collected the complete list and went started coming up with some new ideas that kind of anticipated some concepts of customizeable cosmologies the the 3e MotP eventually put in print for D20. In the end, it was different enough from the Core D&D that it was just going to fly for athas.org. I don't blame 'em one whit. There would have been a revolt among fans, no doubt. Plus, as we all know, athas.org is tasked with doing Dark Sun material that easily works with the Core D&D Rulebooks, not creating Dark Sun D20.

The end result was something that chucked nearly all 2e accessory cosmology references, and just created something I thought was cool, different, interesting, and still evoked the feel of Dark Sun, and could still be represented in 3e crunchy terms. For the best idea of something I came up with, I can say that the cosmology of the Master's and especially the Immortals boxed sets of OD&D fame were a big component of the cosmology I came up with for my DS, especially the behavior of the elements and elementals. I won't even try to go into how I worked in the 3rd/4th/5th dimensions into Dark Sun, or the 5 Spheres: Time, Thought, Matter, Energy and Entropy, but those were all in there too! ;) There was even an "out" for the possibility that deities could (I only said could!)) still be out there somehow.

There was a sort of complex simplicity. Uh... yeah... Seriously.

But yeah, I totally see how ears could bleed. Familiarity with OD&D cosmology made it easier, I'd bet. ;)

Regards,
Eric Anondson
#13
zombiegleemax
Jan 04, 2005 0:50:16 I remember that now. I remember you pulling alot of information from th Basic D&D Immortals books too. I also remember argueing with you the whole way. Mainly disagreeing on your postioning of the elemental planes I think. I still have some of the pictures I drew trying to illustrate some points...

What do you think of the current outline of what I'm thinking about? (My big post up there)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tykus Jan 01, 2005 21:08:50	While the Dragon/Dungeon take on Athasian cosmology is a good starting point (no, I haven't seen DA at the time of this post), it seems incomplete. It seems to completely ignore the thri-kreen's religious outlook. Mind you, I'm talking about some things mentioned in "Thri-Kreen of Athas," and I haven't looked at the book in years. The kreen had belief in a place that reminded me of the Beastlands (gaa!, can you imagine an Athasian version to that plane?) and an actual hell (a cold one) that was called Cano (Cania, anyone?) inhabited by devils called gelugs (do I really need to spell it out for you?). Any thoughts? Info?
#2 zombiegleemax Jan 01, 2005 21:24:26	I think the Kreen may have immigrated to Athas from elsewhere, (the zik'chil sound just like the Xixchil from Spelljammer) hence their rudimentary and distorted knowledge of those particular outer planes. It's really the only logical explanation, because the Grey prevents transmigration of souls who are shuffled loose from the mortal coil on Athas to the outer planes.
#3 eric_anondson Jan 01, 2005 23:16:20	I highly suggest ditching any attempt at making sense of Athasian cosmology within the Great Wheel/2e framework. I did. And my Dark Sun is better for it. I'd bet money the Dragon/Dungeon version did the same. Regards, Eric Anondson
#4 zombiegleemax Jan 02, 2005 16:19:05	Yeah, Great Wheel was just a starting place, the example planes. Mostly becuase it's so similar to FR/GH setings. Not all settings need to work the same way, or be 100% complatable. If Dark Sun is differnt in all it's other ways, why does its cosmlogy need to be the same?
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 02, 2005 16:35:30	What some other people on the boards and I were discussing is the possibility that the plane of Shadow, called the Black on Athas, which Athasians say seperates all that exists from all that does not, acts as kind of a dimensional barrier, seperating completely different realities, not just different planes. This is used in d20 Modern, and makes sense for a Dark SUn campaign, as it allows seamless integration of campaign worlds without messy planar explanations. Completely different realities can have completely different cosmologies, and Shadow is the most consistently present transitive plane in all campaign worlds.
#6 flip Jan 03, 2005 14:31:42	I highly suggest ditching any attempt at making sense of Athasian cosmology within the Great Wheel/2e framework. I did. And my Dark Sun is better for it. I'd bet money the Dragon/Dungeon version did the same. Mind you that what Eric developed made me bleed out my ears ... Definately detailed. grin
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 03, 2005 15:02:23	I was at a Gen Con back in '96 and someone asked Troy Denning what the Grey was at a Dark Sun seminar. He said that the Grey was he imagined what the Astral would be if there were no outer planes for the dead souls of Athas to go to. There was more talk, but the jist of the conversation was since there are no Gods, there are no outer planes for them to live in. The souls hang out untill they dissolve. Strong souls, like Kalak's, can resist diffusing. And this state of affairs is what makes for the high undead content on Athas. The Black I think was intentioned as the Shadow with no light at all. Then there was the Planescape take on it that says the Grey was a product of an unusual Crystal Sphere. My take on it is there is some sort of cosmic barrier that seperates Athas from the rest of the multiverse. This barrier can be breached, (see Dregoth Ascending and Black Spine) but it prevents the connection that the divine has with mortals. Since Athas has it's own elemental planes, (either because of the cosmic barrier or because all prime planes have their own, you pick) strong elemental powers and Athasian land spirits grew to fill the power vacuum. Rajaat and his Champions took that power from the elementals for themsleves during the cleansing wars. As far as the Black goes I would say either that it is a corruption of the ethereal plane or a chunk of the plane of Shadow. Alot of the effects that are described in the book are ethereal-ish. But if it is a part of the demi-plane of shadow that is severed from the rest of the multiverse along with the Astral and the Outer planes, it would be finite in power as well. So I have a few fundametal questions to ask about this: If the Black is the Shadow Plane of Athas, is there an Ethereal? If there is no Ethereal does the Grey function as the location of the conduits of elemental power? Could the Grey be the Ethereal and not part of the Astral? If the Black is an Ethereal corruption, did it merge or get taken over by the plane of Shadow? Is tha Black actually the Plane of Shadow and is an 'escape' from Athas? The Demi-plane of Dread touched Athas, Kalidnay is there. Did the Demi-plane of Dread cut through the cosmic barrier? It seems so, so how? Kalidnay's Ziggurat? The ability to grant spells denotes a command of mana that is normally attributed to the divine. Divine power pulls from the Outer planes to be burned in the Prime plane to perform magic. The Outer Planes have unlimited power reserves so this never upsets any balance of the cosmos. The Inner planes, although infinite in space have power levels in direct proportion to the power of the prime they represent. Rajaat and his champions (and elemental lords) are drawing divine-level power out of the finite power levels that are the inner planes to power their spells and transformations. This is the main reason why Athas is decaying. The Inner Planes have TREMENDOUS amounts of power in them, but it is finite as Athas is. Rajaat and his Champions are metaphorically driving a Hummer through a dried up oil field. Now the presense of Gray Magic means that the power of the diffused souls in the grey can be tapped to make magic as well. There are finite dead souls making up the grey, uncountable there are so many, but still finite, so grey magic is leeching power from there as well. Shadow magic draws from the Black. So depending on your interpretation of the Black you could say that it draws from the Shadow and is therefore infinite, or you can say that the Black is the plane of Shadow and the Etherial in a blender and because of the cosmic barrier is also finite. So some fundimental questions need to be asked in order to understand the nature of the divine barrier for your campaign. I will use Thor as my divine example. It is understood that no matter how hard an athasian prays to Thor on Athas, he will never be granted a single spell, or will he get first level spells based on his own conviction? If an Athasian leaves Athas through Dregoth's portal, can he become a cleric of Thor and get spells? If that Athasian returns to Athas as a Thor cleric, will he continue to recieve spells? If a Thor cleric enters Athas, will he retain the spells he has memorized and still be able to cast them? Will the Thor cleric be able to get spells in the vicinty of the portal or would he have to cross over to get more? What if Thor was curious as to where his favorite Athasian Cleric went and sent an avatar through Dregoth's gate? Would it have divine magic in Athas? Could it grant spells? Could it even exist? What is Thor himself tried to visit Dregoth's pad, once inside Athas, would he be cut off from his own divinity? Could he grant spells? I would say there is no way outside divine magic can get inside the barrier around Athas. As to what would happen if a god entered athas himself... that I cannot say.
#8 zombiegleemax Jan 03, 2005 15:03:56	Mind you that what Eric developed made me bleed out my ears ... Definately detailed. grin Is that somewhere I can read it?
#9 johndoe Jan 03, 2005 18:28:43	Is that somewhere I can read it? i would be interested in that one as well so far ive found a netbook i think that was written by David Schwartz (with the help of this board) called 'Dark Sun Cosmology'
#10 flip Jan 03, 2005 19:41:55	Is that somewhere I can read it? How far back do your mail archives go? Eric developed / presented it as part of a long-running discussion of cosmology on the athas.org staff list ... ooh, I was still in college at the time, so four, five years ago. I only remember a bit of it, but it involved a lot of ascii art, and messages running into the 10's of kilobytes ... given that my interest in planar stuff has never been terribly strong, my eyes kinda glazed through the whole discussion. Since I've gone through at least two hard-drive crashes since then, I've got no archives of the discussion. Eric's probably evolved stuff since then, and since he's here, I'll shut up now. ;)
#11 johndoe Jan 03, 2005 20:41:14	lets wait on Eric to give an answer then :P
#12 eric_anondson Jan 03, 2005 21:15:40	Mind you that what Eric developed made me bleed out my ears ... Definately detailed. grin I believe I'll take that as a compliment. ;) As flip said, much of what I talked about was in the early athas.org private email list. Indeed, dozens and dozens of posts, rather then a single post. Of course, it was only the discussion, not a full out presentation of everything what I thought could work. What I was considering was so thorough, that much of the magic system needed fine-tuning. As I was on the spells and psionics team then, this was right up my alley. I kept versions of each spell tailored for my own DS cosmology. I had also just done a scouring of the Prism Pentad for planar references, and collected the complete list and went started coming up with some new ideas that kind of anticipated some concepts of customizeable cosmologies the the 3e MotP eventually put in print for D20. In the end, it was different enough from the Core D&D that it was just going to fly for athas.org. I don't blame 'em one whit. There would have been a revolt among fans, no doubt. Plus, as we all know, athas.org is tasked with doing Dark Sun material that easily works with the Core D&D Rulebooks, not creating Dark Sun D20. The end result was something that chucked nearly all 2e accessory cosmology references, and just created something I thought was cool, different, interesting, and still evoked the feel of Dark Sun, and could still be represented in 3e crunchy terms. For the best idea of something I came up with, I can say that the cosmology of the Master's and especially the Immortals boxed sets of OD&D fame were a big component of the cosmology I came up with for my DS, especially the behavior of the elements and elementals. I won't even try to go into how I worked in the 3rd/4th/5th dimensions into Dark Sun, or the 5 Spheres: Time, Thought, Matter, Energy and Entropy, but those were all in there too! ;) There was even an "out" for the possibility that deities could (I only said could!)) still be out there somehow. There was a sort of complex simplicity. Uh... yeah... Seriously. But yeah, I totally see how ears could bleed. Familiarity with OD&D cosmology made it easier, I'd bet. ;) Regards, Eric Anondson
#13 zombiegleemax Jan 04, 2005 0:50:16	I remember that now. I remember you pulling alot of information from th Basic D&D Immortals books too. I also remember argueing with you the whole way. Mainly disagreeing on your postioning of the elemental planes I think. I still have some of the pictures I drew trying to illustrate some points... What do you think of the current outline of what I'm thinking about? (My big post up there)