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| #1HuginJan 01, 2005 22:48:12 | While I was looking through my files for something else, I saw my Lycanthropic Characters file that I created to bring the PC4 rules into 3E. I created this when the PCs IMC meet and befriended a Traladaran Wereboar named Jib (and family) who live west of the village of Verge. A most memorable session indeed that caused their characters to get little sleep and be scared of the noises the chickens made outside (the Darine rouge PC in the group told the others he suspected Jib of lycanthropy) :D . Anyhow, now that I've strolled down memory lane, I thought I should share my conversions, open to comments and criticism! Lycanthropic Characters Characters that have lycanthropy gain experience and levels independently of any other classes. In other words, when a character contracts lycanthropy, it is as though he becomes two characters with two sets of ability scores, hit dice and points, levels, base attack bonuses, and skills (due to different ability scores and physical limitations). However, feats and saves combine and are the same regardless of which form he is in. Level Progression [HTML]Level XP Special Abilities 1 0 Must take animal form the night of the full moon, as well as the preceding and following nights. Can take animal form any night the moon is visible. 2 1,000 Damage reduction 3/silver. Can speak with other animals and were-creatures of the same type. Can take animal form at night (even without the moon). Natural armour bonus of +1 when in human or animal form. 3 3,000 Damage reduction 6/silver. Can take animal form at any time, including daytime. Can summon 1d2 normal animals of same type, provided some are in the area. Arrive in 1d4 rounds if in immediate vicinity; otherwise 1d4x10 minutes. 4 6,000 Damage reduction 10/silver. Can summon dire creatures as well as normal creatures of same type. Can take hybrid form any night the moon is visible. Natural armour bonus of +2 when in human or animal form. 5 10,000 Can summon 1d4 normal animals of same type. Can take hybrid form at night (even without the moon). 6 15,000 Can summon were-creatures of same type as well as normal creatures (DM determines how many are were-creatures). Can take hybrid form at any time, including daytime. Natural armour bonus of +3 when in human or animal form. 7 21,000 Can summon 1d6 normal animals of same type. Can take dire creature form instead of normal animal (control shape DC +5) 8 28,000 Specific Were-Creature Special Ability. Natural armour bonus of +4 when in human or animal form. 9 36,000 Can summon 1d8 normal animals of same type. 10 45,000 Natural armour bonus of +5 when in human or animal form.[/HTML] Lycanthrope characters possess the following attributes Physical abilities are increased by the animal form’s ability modifiers when a lycanthrope changes to its animal or hybrid forms. Lycanthropic Ability Modifiers [HTML]Abilities Str Dex Con Int Wis Char Werebat +0 +6 +2 -4 +4 -2 Werebear +8 +2 +4 -4 – -1 Wereboar +4 – +6 -4 – -2 Werefox +0 +6 +2 -2 +2 – Wererat +0 +6 +2 -4 +2 -1 Wereseal +2 +6 +2 -4 +2 – Wereshark +4 +4 +2 -6 – -2 Weretiger +6 +4 +6 -4 +2 – Werewolf +2 +4 +4 -4 +2 -1 Devil Swine +4 – +8 -2 – -2[/HTML] Low-light vision and scent in any form. Lycanthropes use a 1d8 hit dice per level of Lycanthropy. Hit points are kept separate for human form and were-form (animal and hybrid). Feats are determined by level, independent of other character levels. All lycanthropes gain Iron Will as a free at first level. Feats gained by either class level or lycanthrope level are usable in any form provided it is physically possible as judged by the DM. Base Save Bonus improves as per animal with fortitude and reflex being the good saves. Skill points are 2 plus intelligence modifier per level (minimum 1 skill point per level), times four at first level. Class skills for a lycanthrope are balance, climb, escape artist, hide, intimidate, jump, listen, move silently, search, sense motive, spot, survival, swim, and tumble. Skills are combined with ranks from other class levels but use the lycanthropes ability scores. Lycanthropic skill: Control Shape (Wis). Any character who has contracted lycanthropy and is aware of his condition can learn Control Shape as a class skill. An afflicted lycanthrope not yet aware of his condition can attempt Control Shape checks untrained. This skill determines whether an afflicted lycanthrope can control his shape. A natural lycanthrope receives an inherent +10 bonus to his Control Shape checks even if he does not have ranks in it. Note that the full moon also refers to the night before and after the actual night of the fullest moon (nights of the 14th, 15th, and 16th). Check (Involuntary Change): An afflicted character must make a check at moonrise each night of the full moon to resist involuntarily assuming animal form. An injured character must also check for an involuntary change after accumulating enough damage to reduce his hit points by one-quarter and again after each additional one-quarter lost. [HTML]Involuntary Change Control Shape DC Resist involuntary change from full moon 25 Resist involuntary change from damage 20[/HTML] Retry (Involuntary Change): Check to resist an involuntary change once each time a triggering event occurs. Check (Voluntary Change): In addition, an afflicted lycanthrope aware of his condition may attempt to use this skill voluntarily in order to change to animal form, assume hybrid form (if of sufficient level), or return to human form, regardless of the state of the moon (again, if of sufficient level) or whether he has been injured. [HTML]Voluntary Change Control Shape DC Return to human form (full moon) 25 Return to human form (not full moon) 20 Assume hybrid form (if able) 20 Voluntary change to animal form (full moon) 15 Voluntary change to animal form (not full moon) 20[/HTML] Retry (Voluntary Change): A character can retry voluntary changes to animal form or hybrid form as often as he likes. Each attempt is a standard action. However, on a failed check to return to human form, the character must remain in animal or hybrid form until the next dawn, when he automatically returns to human form. Special: An afflicted lycanthrope cannot attempt a voluntary change until it becomes aware of its condition. |
| #2HuginJan 01, 2005 23:54:16 | Note: Please notice that the werebat, werefox, and wererat ability modifiers are shifted to the left one slot and should not be (I can't seem to be able to push them over). Otherwise, I think it worked quite well doing a copy/paste from the word doc. I can't help but write about our encounter with "Jib" so here it goes. The background: This happened back when there was only myself as DM and my brother as player. He had (still has) two characters; Khalikov, an ex-miner turned fighter from Verge, and Rothrekr, a street rogue from Specularum with a Darine heritage. I played (still play) a DMPC named Dyzek from Specularum who was trained in the arcane arts by an Alphatian. Since the meeting of Jib and his family, we have had two more players enter the game. As of yet, they have no idea that when we speak of Jib, he is also a wereboar. The encounter: The three young PCs where travelling east through the foothills to the west of Verge, where they were heading, along the northern slope of a broad valley. They then heard orc calls in the distance behind them as evening was coming soon. This was after their first adventure together and were still first level. As the sun was setting, they could tell that the orcs were getting very close so they tried to hide among a stand of trees with descent cover around them. The orcs quickly came and lost track of their prey, but they knew they weren't far off. They split up and seached the area, slowly converging on the PCs. There was around 6 or 8 orcs and the young PCs were very tense about the situation. Then, from behind, two spears struck the trees close to Khalikov's head; they'd been spotted and the battle ensued. But the PCs were outnumbered and overpowered. Two orcs fell but it would not be long before the PCs were dealt with. Then a loud voice yelled out in the tongue of the orcs. It was human. The ocrs ceased the fighting but the appearent leader walked toward this unknown human. There was a breif arguement but the orc backed down and took his kind with him. The three young PCs thanked the man and were invited to stay at his place for the night with his family. They ate and exchanged stories, but one of the tales told by this man named Jib was about his grandfather who battled with a great boar. Jib also said that this story also had a moral, for although his grandfather was victorious, he was never the same thereafter. Jib then got up with a wink in his eye and went to bed, along with the rest of the family. A place to sleep was made for the three in the main room of the small house. Rothrekr however became increasingly worried and said that perhaps they have only gone from the frying pan to the pot. The other two didn't understand so he explanied that he believed Jib to be a lycanthrope and how the story told of Jib's grandfather getting the disease from that boar. He looked around and saw no silver. Then they remembered the orcs; why would half a dozen orcs back down from Jib, unarmoured and unarmed? The three layed there with eyes wide open and whispered about what they should do. Jib seemed like a nice man... but what if? They stayed a wake for a while before deciding to take watches, just in case! Fear increased as the moon began to shine through the small window and noises where heard outside. The next day came and the three young men felt rather silly for the fear they felt the night before. Perhaps they were wrong. Perhaps they were right, but were wrong to fear such a gentle man. Jib's eldest daughter was provided to guide them back to Verge. After many months and more adventures, the PCs (now level 2) returned to Verge to find out that the mine had collapsed several weeks ago and most of the men never made it out. Among the men who did not return was Khalikov's father. As they continued to travel to Threshold, they crossed paths with a man, weak and frantic. He claimed to have excaped from the orcs who caused the collapse of the mine and who have enslaved the survivors. In the process of trying to put forth a rescue plan, the PCs searched out for Jib to aid them. There was a serious lack of men, and in addition, not everyone believed the story about the orcs. It took some time, but Jib agreed to help and during the rescue they saw first hand how a man turns into a man-boar! What follows is an article that my bother wrote for the Hear-Say #2 (campaing newsletter). It was written to give the newer players in our group a little snippet of things their characters might hear our characters say of earlier events. (Gethora’tam is Dyzek's Alphatian mentor in the arcane arts as well as politics and law.) [This is a player submission by Joel. The following is a conversion held between Rothrekr, Dyzek, and Khalikov. It occurred in Akorros after purchasing the horses, and was spoken in Thyatian.] Rothrekr: I have a feeling that the orcs around Threshold might have to be dealt with when we get back as well. Khalikov: Humph, and I have a feeling you may be right. Rothrekr: Ah, you never know though. Jib has probably made some sort of agreement with them by now. Khalikov: What sort of agreement could be made with orcs? The only accord that can be reached with orcs is done by the blade. They have but two options, they can die fighting or they can be slaughtered where they stand. (Laughter) Rothrekr: (Chuckles) it wouldn’t hurt to pay a visit to Jib regardless. Khalikov: No, it wouldn’t. Rothrekr: How many silver pieces do you think he’ll demand this time? (Said with a crooked smile) Khalikov: Huh? Dyzek: (Laughs) Too subtle Rothrekr. You forget who you speak to. (Glances at Khalikov) Khalikov: (Grunts) Dyzek: (More laughter) Khalikov would be in complete darkness on a night of a cloudless sky and a full moon. Rothrekr: (Starts laughing) Perhaps we can get a full nights rest without being bored to death. Khalikov: My sides split from the humor. I get it already! Rothrekr: (Laughter subsides) Jib is a good man. Every good friend once was a stranger. He’ll aid us again I’m sure. Khalikov: I still have my doubts about his intentions. Dyzek: Jib showed great hospitality. We should consider him an ally. Khalikov: His affiliation with the orcs is anything but that of an enemy. He’s a little too acquainted with them for my liking. Orcs are not creatures that should be negotiated with. They should be thrown into a pit and burned alive. Rothrekr: Yeah well, whether we deal with them or not we should report back to The Palace while we’re in Karameikos as well. Dyzek: Right, The Palace. It’s been a while indeed. Khalikov: (Snorts) Rothrekr: (Turns towards Dyzek) and I’d bet that you need to see Gethora’tam as well, Dyzek? Dyzek: Yeah, to thicken my spell book, as it were. (Followed by a humble yet somewhat maniacal smile) Rothrekr: Right… that’s all you need. (His crooked smile resurfaces) Khalikov: Maybe Gethora’tam can provide you with a spell to turn your dagger into a weapon. (Smirks wryly) Dyzek: You make cracks now, but you both just wait. Someday you will be in awe of the magnificent power that you will know as Dyzek. The three erupt in laughter. |
| #3CthulhudrewJan 02, 2005 4:31:54 | Lycanthropic Characters I'm not quite clear here. So do you mean (for example) that a 4th level fighter that is inflicted with werewolf lycanthropy will be considered to be a 4th level fighter in human form, but only a 1st level werewolf in wolf form? (IE, 4HD human, 1HD wolf)? Also along those lines, will the character get to choose which class he puts his XP towards, or does he only get XP for the class he's currently in (ie, in human form, he puts XP towards his human class(es), and in lycanthrope form he puts his XP towards his werewolf class)? The only potential problem I can see with this is that his non-lycanthrope comrades will be much more powerful in any given form than he is- Example: Our 4th level fighter/1st level werewolf from above (call him Joe) has gone on to become a higher level- he's now Ftr5/Wwf3. He thus has a total of 13,000 XP. Joe's adventuring companions also have 13,000 XP. When the party gets 2,000 XP more (each) after an adventure, the non-lycanthropes are 6th level characters, while Joe has either 12,000 XP in human form, or 5,000 XP in wolf form- either way, he's still a Ftr5/Wwf3. When Joe's companions are 8th level, Joe will only have 28,000 XP to distribute between his two forms, and will be at best Ftr5/Wwf5 (if he tries to keep things even)- In either of his forms, he is now quite a bit less powerful than his adventuring companions. I hope I'm not being too critical- I've worked the lycanthrope thing myself several times and have yet to find a solution that I think works out very well. I liked the PC4 system, but it doesn't work very well with the 3E rules on multiclassing, unfortunately. One of my earliest attempts was to do something along the lines you are doing here, which is to treat lycanthropy as simply another class. The problems with that idea are 1) the power problem I mention above, where a lycanthrope character actually becomes somewhat less powerful than his companions, though he becomes more versatile, and 2) you will have to change the way all lycanthropes are done- the Monster Manual entries will not be useful at all any longer, because the monsters they represent will be more powerful and completely different from your system- which isn't a problem, as long as you realize that. Of course the problem with lycanthropy as it currently stands is also a power issue- afflicted characters automatically and instantly become more powerful than their companions; even if you "buy off" those levels as you gain XP, the lycanthrope will be more powerful than his friends for some time. The best way I've seen so far is the article in Dragon #313, which breaks down lycanthropy via the Savage Species method. I'd make a couple of slight alterations (and you still have to deal with a slight boost over the other players), but it's a good start. There was one other place that had a pretty good version, but I can't think of where offhand. The article here on Wizards by Sean Reynolds was just too confusing for me. |
| #4HuginJan 02, 2005 11:41:06 | I'm not quite clear here. So do you mean (for example) that a 4th level fighter that is inflicted with werewolf lycanthropy will be considered to be a 4th level fighter in human form, but only a 1st level werewolf in wolf form? (IE, 4HD human, 1HD wolf)? Correct, however I've only followed this as it is done in PC4. The only potential problem I can see with this is that his non-lycanthrope comrades will be much more powerful in any given form than he is- Good point! I haven't actually play tested this as far as advancing along side other characters. I just assumed it would work in 3E as it did in original. We should investigate this some more. I hope I'm not being too critical- I've worked the lycanthrope thing myself several times and have yet to find a solution that I think works out very well. I liked the PC4 system, but it doesn't work very well with the 3E rules on multiclassing, unfortunately. It would be rather hypocritical of me to ask for criticism and than get offended by that which I asked for :D . Your criticism is constructive and relevant and will hopefully lead to some improvements. I agree with what you said. I did this "conversion" when I was very new to 3E (close to two years ago now) and haven't used lycanthropes since. I did update it a bit when I got my 3.5 books, but not in depth. I'm pretty glad that I posted this now to get a better look at it. One of my earliest attempts was to do something along the lines you are doing here, which is to treat lycanthropy as simply another class. The problems with that idea are 1) the power problem I mention above, where a lycanthrope character actually becomes somewhat less powerful than his companions, though he becomes more versatile, and 2) you will have to change the way all lycanthropes are done- the Monster Manual entries will not be useful at all any longer, because the monsters they represent will be more powerful and completely different from your system- which isn't a problem, as long as you realize that. 1) Power Problem - One thing that I don't want is characters that contract lycanthropy to instantly become power-houses (i.e. have the players see it as a way to become uber-PC). But I wouldn't want werecreatures to be sissies either. There should be a balance between the down-sides and up-sides. 2) Monster Manual - When I did the level progression, I did look at the werecreatures in the MM, but of course, that was in 3.0 and I now use 3.5. Like you said earlier, I see it more as a class, albeit a special class Of course the problem with lycanthropy as it currently stands is also a power issue- afflicted characters automatically and instantly become more powerful than their companions; even if you "buy off" those levels as you gain XP, the lycanthrope will be more powerful than his friends for some time. That's something I don't want. IMHO, lycanthropes should be a little more vulnerable at the the beginning, kind of like an infancy stage where they must grow in strength and knowledge about themselves. The best way I've seen so far is the article in Dragon #313, which breaks down lycanthropy via the Savage Species method. I'd make a couple of slight alterations (and you still have to deal with a slight boost over the other players), but it's a good start. There was one other place that had a pretty good version, but I can't think of where offhand. The article here on Wizards by Sean Reynolds was just too confusing for me. I can get my hands on that issue so I'll have to chack that out, thanks. I didn't intend this to become yet another project for me, but... |
| #5katana_oneJan 02, 2005 15:22:44 | Interesting, but I think I prefer to use the rules on page 178 of the Monster Manual for "Lycanthropy as an Affliction" and "Lycanthropes as Characters." It is far simpler since you do not have to track the were-form as a separate class (of course, you also give up some role-playing opportunities as the characters "grow into" their were-forms). In my campaign, I usually do not have any afflicted PCs so I only use PC4 as flavor text. |
| #6HuginJan 02, 2005 23:10:04 | It is far simpler since you do not have to track the were-form as a separate class (of course, you also give up some role-playing opportunities as the characters "grow into" their were-forms). In my campaign, I usually do not have any afflicted PCs so I only use PC4 as flavor text. I've actually never had a PC with lycanthropy in any of my campaigns either, but the whole concept of having the characters (even NPCs) "grow into" their new condition is something I find very appealing, despite the simpler method of just using the MM. Perhaps it's because I like how PC4 presented the subject that I just wouldn't want to do it any other way IMCs. I think another factor in my leanings to this veiw is that I am a very experienced DM (closing in on 20 years) so extra detail doesn't bother me at all if there is a descent role-playing payoff (my players may be younger than me, but they are great role-players). So, before I send it off to the "recycle bin", is there any way to rescue this PC4 ideology from a 3E point of veiw? Some thoughts are to make Hit Dice, Hit Points, and BAB stack between the character's "class levels" and "lycanthropy levels". Or, am I beating a dead horse here? (P.S. I haven't been able to look at Dragon #313 yet, and also, thanks for the honest opinions so far) |
| #7CthulhudrewJan 03, 2005 1:09:32 | So, before I send it off to the "recycle bin", is there any way to rescue this PC4 ideology from a 3E point of veiw? Some thoughts are to make Hit Dice, Hit Points, and BAB stack between the character's "class levels" and "lycanthropy levels". Or, am I beating a dead horse here? I wish I could be a bit more helpful, but I've struggled with the same ideology. My earliest attempt was similar to yours, with lycanthropes treated as classes (each phenotype- wereboar, wolf, etc.) was its own "base" class- wereboars had d12 HD, wolves had d8, etc. I ran into the problems I detailed above, though. If you are willing to rework the principles of the lycanthrope "template" from the MM, then you should be able to do something along the PC4 lines with no problems- just so long as you are willing and able to do the legwork to "fix" any lycanthropes in any material you are running. The problem comes with trying to fit the PC4 mold into the current 3E mold. The Dragon article I mentioned is the best alternative that I've found. It basically breaks down the lycanthrope templates Savage Species style- ie, you start as a less powerful version and work your way up (like the old PC4 style of monster classes). There is an initial boost of essentially 1 level for the change (It doesn't spell it out explicitly in the article that I can see, but I assume that you have to "buy" off the 1st lycanthrope level with your next level advancement, before you can continue to advance in lycanthrope level). From that point, you could theoretically split your XP as per multiclassing- either take a regular class or continue as a lycanthrope, as you see fit. I know there is another similar method somewhere (maybe another Dragon article? Or else the method in Races of Faerun- I can't recall), but I like the Dragon #313 article. It even includes several "lycanthrope" feats you can take (similar to the special abilities of the lycanthrope forms from PC4. I figure Howl, Stomp, etc, from PC4 could easily be turned into feats). The only changes I would make to the advancement tables they have in that article are to add in the PC4 moon phase changes (to dictate when they can change shape), and moving changing the hybrid form. I much prefer the PC4 "only gain a hybrid shape at high level" to the 3E "hybrid is standard on all models" version. From there, it would be simple to either a) continue the level advancement tables of the given forms for increased lycanthrope power (a la the 1-36 levels of PC4 lycanthropes) or b) create prestige classes for the lycanthropes. You could also simply have them add on levels of animal, I suppose, though that doesn't really gain you much. On that note, I had a couple of ideas. One would be a feral shifter- one who increases the size and damage of his form, at the sacrifice of self-control. Another was a multishifter (like Kaladan the Mastershaper) who gains multiple lycanthropic forms. Another was going to be some kind of spellcasting lycanthrope (can cast in animal forms). |
| #8katana_oneJan 03, 2005 12:18:40 | So, before I send it off to the "recycle bin", is there any way to rescue this PC4 ideology from a 3E point of veiw? Some thoughts are to make Hit Dice, Hit Points, and BAB stack between the character's "class levels" and "lycanthropy levels". Or, am I beating a dead horse here? I have not seen Dragon #313 either, so I can't comment on that. As far as using the ideology from PC4, I think the key might lie in expanding the DC chart for the Control Shape skill - after all, it already requires a significant investment in skill points over several levels for the lycanthrope to master his new form. Use of other lycanthropic abilities can be assigned a Control Shape DC, or simply require a prerequisite skill level to activate them (such as summoning other lycanthropes). I think this approach still keeps in the spirit of PC4's approach, while not adding needless complexity to the 3.5 lycanthrope template. |
| #9CthulhudrewJan 04, 2005 1:58:02 | Something interesting to note about that Dragon article that I noticed last night- the "lycanthrope" levels all roughly are at/around the same places as the "Relative Character Level of Wereform Table" from p. 23 of PC4. For example, a "Normal Monster" Werebear in PC4 is roughly level 9 (human scale), and the "Normal Monster" (6 HD) afflicted werebear in 3E works out to a level 9 character (assuming a level 1 afflicted character). More comparison (all assume the afflicted character was a level 1 something or other): Lycanthrope OD&D "NM" 3E "NM" Werewolf Lvl 6 Lvl 5 Weretiger Lvl 7 Lvl 9 Wererat Lvl 4 Lvl 4 Wereboar Lvl 6 Lvl 6 All fall pretty close, power wise. Some key differences, though: 1) In OD&D, werewolves had 4 HD at NM level, as opposed to 3E "NM" 3 HD; 2) OD&D Weretigers have 5 HD, while 3E have 7; 3) OD&D Wererats have 3 HD, as opposed to 3E 2 HD; 4) Werebears in 3E also have one more HD than OD&D. I think the big change here was either animals got beefed up, or (more likely) just the different approach 3E took to lycanthropes (ie, essentially adding "souped up" levels of the animal class to the base class). In any case, it's pretty close. I think I'll work up some of the other lycanthrope types and post them up here. |
| #10CthulhudrewJan 04, 2005 4:26:22 | Hrm... Just tried doing a conversion of the Devil Swine, but the results (IMO) are less than stellar. First I made up a Pig. Similar to a Boar, but smaller (only 2 HD) and lacking some qualities. Then I applied the Fiendish template to the Pig, and then I applied the result to the lycanthropic rules. Not sure I like the results. For one thing, it is far less powerful (as a "Normal Monster") than the Devil Swine from OD&D (3 HD as opposed to 9 HD). It's bite attack is significantly less powerful as well. On the other hand, from the Fiendish template it gains a Smite Good attack, as well as resistance to cold and fire 5. It also gains Spell Resistance 8, but that's pretty negligible, considering. To try it out, I did a quick conversion of Marden Bailey, the NPC Devil Swine from Gaz9: The Minrothad Guilds. Converting him as a 9th level Fighter/Devil Swine, got a pretty powerful character- I let his HD stack with the Fiendish template, getting a Cold/Fire Resistance of 10, a Damage Reduction of 5/Magic (which doesn't stack with his DR 5/silver, but it does mean that only silvered and magical weapons will do full damage). He also has a Spell Resistance of 16, which for his CR of 14 is pretty negligible. Anyway, it's a start. Any other ideas on how we could convert the Devil Swine? |