Distinctions between wizards and WoHS - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Distinctions between wizards and WoHS

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
true_blue
Jan 04, 2005 2:47:14 I currently have two wizards in my campaign. Both are Black Robes. But, one of them has gone on and taken the WoHS prestige class. The other has chosen to go up wizard levels, and who knows what PrC after that. But the fact of the matter is, she isn't going to go up in the WoHS prestige class.

My question is... what abilities actually belong to the WoHS PrC and what abilities belong to all wizards who pass the Test and are considered members? The things I am talking about are Item of Power, Moon Magic, and Tower resources. Personally I don't see any reason why any wizard who has taken the Test wouldnt get these abilities. I've basically gave those abilities to the plain wizard. I consider it a matter of tradition that all wizards who take the test get an item of power. Also, its always been said that all wizards who have taken the Test are considered members and are affected by the moons from then on. Under Tower Resources, it says "A wizard who has passed the Test of High Sorcery and declared allegience to the Gods of Magic gain access to the libraries within the Tower". So I assume that every wizard is allowed to study in the library and research.

It doesnt bother me to give these things to any wizard who passes the Test, but I just was wonderin if others do it different. Personally I think there should be a small footnote that says that these things are given to anyone who passes the Test, and not listed under the PrC.
#2
cam_banks
Jan 04, 2005 5:02:27
My question is... what abilities actually belong to the WoHS PrC and what abilities belong to all wizards who pass the Test and are considered members?

Any ability listed as a class feature of the wizard of High Sorcery prestige class that isn't granted to a standard wizard belongs to characters who take the PrC only. This is primarily because it's assumed any character that passes the Test will, at their earliest opportunity, take levels in WoHS. They don't have to, it's not a requirement and indeed some may not meet the requirements of the PrC, but the consequences of not taking the class are that the wizard misses out on the special abilities other wizards of High Sorcery enjoy, such as moon magic, an item of power, and so on.

What this difference amounts to is a measure of the dedication of the wizard in question to his Order and his god. A wizard who passes the Test on a purely academic basis, and who cares little for "the magic", doesn't have the strength of commitment to the gods of magic required to receive those benefits. Once he makes that final commitment, his Test is truly over. Until then, he's more or less paying lip-service to the gods and to his brethren.

You probably won't unbalance things if you allow all wizards who pass the Test to gain an item of power or give them access to library resources, but moon magic really does need to be something the dedicated wizards get. Without actually forcing all wizards to take the prestige class, the rules as given ensure that there's a price to pay for not doing so, which is very much in keeping with the nature of wizards in the setting.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
darthsylver
Jan 04, 2005 7:39:59 Well technically speaking a Wizard who passes the test and then takes the PrC would actually get two items of power.

The test is explained in high detail near the back of the book and lists everything that a wizard who passes the test might receive.
1: Item of power (all wizard who pass the test) (Value determined by Risk taken)
2: Intelligence increase (determined by the risk taken and then by Int roll)
3: Bonus feat (determined by the risk taken by the wizard)
4: Physical change (determined if test was a soul forge)

All wizards get these things (based of the risk they take in the test)

But when a wizard who takes the test and then takes the PrC the first thing he gets is a item of power from the PrC. So WoHS essentially receive two items of power.

So the Item of power should be an award\ability granted by only the test (if you follow the books) and something else should be granted in it's place.

Moon Magic: Moon magic supposedly affects anyone whoever passed the test and as such should also be a by-product of the test. Something should replace this as well for the PrC. Even renegades (smoe, not all) Belize for instance, who were doing or planning on doing something against the orders decree still received this ability (as far as we know).

Tower Resources: Any wizard who passes the test is allowed access to the tower resources and as such this should be a benefit of passing the test not taking the PrC.

I believe that the reason all three of these abilities are part of the WoHS PrC is because the orignial write-up in the DLCS for WoHS had them and when the ToHS was written the PrC were written up first and then the test description was written.

Personal opinion: Item of Power and Tower Resources should be a part of passing the test. Moon magic can easily be explained that only the most highly dedicated Wizards to the orders policies and edicts receive this ability and would therefore take a Level of WoHS. Should a DM want to allow all three of these abilities to a Wizard who passes the test, simply allow a WoHS who takes the PrC to choose a bonus feat in place of Moon Magic (as he would already have it from the test), you could give the WoHS a 2nd Item of power or simply grant the 1st item new abilities based on the progression of the WoHS class, and also simply increase the benefits of tower resources for the WoHS to say a 3rd spell per day and lower the cost of creating new spells to 500 stl per week of research.

Now as far as Arcane research goes that plainly describes a WoHS time and dedication spent in the library where as most non PrC WoHS would be out adventuring.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jan 04, 2005 8:48:56 I am going off a purist view of the ORders of High Sorcery.

It is possible to me that a Wizard could continue to gain levels as a Wizard and not take the Test. But that does make one a Renegade, if they go over level 5 or 6 right? At least in the eyes of the Order's, anyway.
#5
true_blue
Jan 04, 2005 14:13:33 Well, I guess I see some of the things a little differently. My brother started out a wizard and went up wizard the whole way, eventually taking Black Robe. My girlfriend started out as a monk and went up 4 levels in it, then discovering a spellbook and befriending my brother decided to go up wizard levels. I eventually had her take the Test when she was only 3rd level, but made sure she used her spells instead of her monk abilities all the time. I even made it a surprise because she was so worried about it. It went off really well and everyone had a good time.

But, I see Moon Magic as something *everyone* gets when they take the Test. I dont see it as a choice really. My players hate it actually, but I like it and the flavor. The only people who arent affected by the Moons, are the wizards who turn their back on the WoHS.

The item of power is one ability I could see not giving them. Its sort of a reward for taking the PrC.

As for Tower Resources, as I said, in Towers of High Sorcery it says: "A wizard who has passed the Test of High Sorcery and declared allegience to the Gods of Magic gain access to the libraries within the Tower". To me that means anyone who passed the test gets this benefit. I see the libraries as open to anyone who has passed the Test and embraced the WoHS. From the obsessed, to the people who use magic as a utility or rarely. If you've passed the Test and are a "member", then you can use the facilities.

I've given both my wizards all three of these abilities because personally I dont see anything wrong with it. Also I dont want to see some kind of "elite" class come from this. Where WoHS are seen as "better" than regular wizards who come along and choose not to take the prestige class. Its the same problem I've had with the Solamnics when everyone was saying those PrC's are the "true knights". Everyone says you dont have to take the PrC's in order to be in the group, but then they get a negative stereotype (maybe I'm going a little far but whatever) for not doing so.

In my campaign, a Knight of Solamnia is a Knight of Solamnia, no matter the classes, PrC's, or powers. Ditto with the WoHS. No wizard walks around saying "haha I have moon magic, you dont... I'm dedicated". There are no second class citizens.

While my girlfriend is a 4th level monk, she has dedicated herself from now on to magic. She knows she will catch a little flak for being a monk from other wizards, but then again.. they are desperate. They need more wizards.. so they arent "too" choosy. But while I dont have a problem of wizards giving her a hard time for being a monk also, I dont want to see where a person who goes up the whole way as a wizard and chooses not to take the PrC somehow is branded as not special or a dabbler. If people say the PrC is optional, it really should be. And not a "well you dont have to take it... but haha if you dont..." *shrug* I dunno maybe I made it worse than what it is, but I like to avoid that heh.

Personally I believe the Arcane Research and the Order's Secrets are enough for the PrC. My brother is starting not to think so a little though heh. He keeps looking at the Red Robes secrets and sighing.. saying it'd be nice to get those. Black Robes are seriously lacking =\. It'd be nice to eventually see more secrets that are made up and "found" from earlier days or something like that. Add more variety.
#6
rooks
Jan 04, 2005 15:07:36
...I dont want to see where a person who goes up the whole way as a wizard and chooses not to take the PrC somehow is branded as not special or a dabbler. If people say the PrC is optional, it really should be. And not a "well you dont have to take it... but haha if you dont..." *shrug* I dunno maybe I made it worse than what it is, but I like to avoid that heh.

That's an excellent summary. I think you said it perfectly. And there are those meta-game aspects to the class which are in poor form to the roleplaying aspect of passing the test. Order secrets and whatnot - those I understand belonging to a PrC (to a degree) - but the Item of Power? The library access? How in the hell does any other wizard know if any other wizard has these meta-game levels in the PrC?

Good topic. Difficult quandry.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 true_blue Jan 04, 2005 2:47:14	I currently have two wizards in my campaign. Both are Black Robes. But, one of them has gone on and taken the WoHS prestige class. The other has chosen to go up wizard levels, and who knows what PrC after that. But the fact of the matter is, she isn't going to go up in the WoHS prestige class. My question is... what abilities actually belong to the WoHS PrC and what abilities belong to all wizards who pass the Test and are considered members? The things I am talking about are Item of Power, Moon Magic, and Tower resources. Personally I don't see any reason why any wizard who has taken the Test wouldnt get these abilities. I've basically gave those abilities to the plain wizard. I consider it a matter of tradition that all wizards who take the test get an item of power. Also, its always been said that all wizards who have taken the Test are considered members and are affected by the moons from then on. Under Tower Resources, it says "A wizard who has passed the Test of High Sorcery and declared allegience to the Gods of Magic gain access to the libraries within the Tower". So I assume that every wizard is allowed to study in the library and research. It doesnt bother me to give these things to any wizard who passes the Test, but I just was wonderin if others do it different. Personally I think there should be a small footnote that says that these things are given to anyone who passes the Test, and not listed under the PrC.
#2 cam_banks Jan 04, 2005 5:02:27	My question is... what abilities actually belong to the WoHS PrC and what abilities belong to all wizards who pass the Test and are considered members? Any ability listed as a class feature of the wizard of High Sorcery prestige class that isn't granted to a standard wizard belongs to characters who take the PrC only. This is primarily because it's assumed any character that passes the Test will, at their earliest opportunity, take levels in WoHS. They don't have to, it's not a requirement and indeed some may not meet the requirements of the PrC, but the consequences of not taking the class are that the wizard misses out on the special abilities other wizards of High Sorcery enjoy, such as moon magic, an item of power, and so on. What this difference amounts to is a measure of the dedication of the wizard in question to his Order and his god. A wizard who passes the Test on a purely academic basis, and who cares little for "the magic", doesn't have the strength of commitment to the gods of magic required to receive those benefits. Once he makes that final commitment, his Test is truly over. Until then, he's more or less paying lip-service to the gods and to his brethren. You probably won't unbalance things if you allow all wizards who pass the Test to gain an item of power or give them access to library resources, but moon magic really does need to be something the dedicated wizards get. Without actually forcing all wizards to take the prestige class, the rules as given ensure that there's a price to pay for not doing so, which is very much in keeping with the nature of wizards in the setting. Cheers, Cam
#3 darthsylver Jan 04, 2005 7:39:59	Well technically speaking a Wizard who passes the test and then takes the PrC would actually get two items of power. The test is explained in high detail near the back of the book and lists everything that a wizard who passes the test might receive. 1: Item of power (all wizard who pass the test) (Value determined by Risk taken) 2: Intelligence increase (determined by the risk taken and then by Int roll) 3: Bonus feat (determined by the risk taken by the wizard) 4: Physical change (determined if test was a soul forge) All wizards get these things (based of the risk they take in the test) But when a wizard who takes the test and then takes the PrC the first thing he gets is a item of power from the PrC. So WoHS essentially receive two items of power. So the Item of power should be an award\ability granted by only the test (if you follow the books) and something else should be granted in it's place. Moon Magic: Moon magic supposedly affects anyone whoever passed the test and as such should also be a by-product of the test. Something should replace this as well for the PrC. Even renegades (smoe, not all) Belize for instance, who were doing or planning on doing something against the orders decree still received this ability (as far as we know). Tower Resources: Any wizard who passes the test is allowed access to the tower resources and as such this should be a benefit of passing the test not taking the PrC. I believe that the reason all three of these abilities are part of the WoHS PrC is because the orignial write-up in the DLCS for WoHS had them and when the ToHS was written the PrC were written up first and then the test description was written. Personal opinion: Item of Power and Tower Resources should be a part of passing the test. Moon magic can easily be explained that only the most highly dedicated Wizards to the orders policies and edicts receive this ability and would therefore take a Level of WoHS. Should a DM want to allow all three of these abilities to a Wizard who passes the test, simply allow a WoHS who takes the PrC to choose a bonus feat in place of Moon Magic (as he would already have it from the test), you could give the WoHS a 2nd Item of power or simply grant the 1st item new abilities based on the progression of the WoHS class, and also simply increase the benefits of tower resources for the WoHS to say a 3rd spell per day and lower the cost of creating new spells to 500 stl per week of research. Now as far as Arcane research goes that plainly describes a WoHS time and dedication spent in the library where as most non PrC WoHS would be out adventuring.
#4 zombiegleemax Jan 04, 2005 8:48:56	I am going off a purist view of the ORders of High Sorcery. It is possible to me that a Wizard could continue to gain levels as a Wizard and not take the Test. But that does make one a Renegade, if they go over level 5 or 6 right? At least in the eyes of the Order's, anyway.
#5 true_blue Jan 04, 2005 14:13:33	Well, I guess I see some of the things a little differently. My brother started out a wizard and went up wizard the whole way, eventually taking Black Robe. My girlfriend started out as a monk and went up 4 levels in it, then discovering a spellbook and befriending my brother decided to go up wizard levels. I eventually had her take the Test when she was only 3rd level, but made sure she used her spells instead of her monk abilities all the time. I even made it a surprise because she was so worried about it. It went off really well and everyone had a good time. But, I see Moon Magic as something everyone gets when they take the Test. I dont see it as a choice really. My players hate it actually, but I like it and the flavor. The only people who arent affected by the Moons, are the wizards who turn their back on the WoHS. The item of power is one ability I could see not giving them. Its sort of a reward for taking the PrC. As for Tower Resources, as I said, in Towers of High Sorcery it says: "A wizard who has passed the Test of High Sorcery and declared allegience to the Gods of Magic gain access to the libraries within the Tower". To me that means anyone who passed the test gets this benefit. I see the libraries as open to anyone who has passed the Test and embraced the WoHS. From the obsessed, to the people who use magic as a utility or rarely. If you've passed the Test and are a "member", then you can use the facilities. I've given both my wizards all three of these abilities because personally I dont see anything wrong with it. Also I dont want to see some kind of "elite" class come from this. Where WoHS are seen as "better" than regular wizards who come along and choose not to take the prestige class. Its the same problem I've had with the Solamnics when everyone was saying those PrC's are the "true knights". Everyone says you dont have to take the PrC's in order to be in the group, but then they get a negative stereotype (maybe I'm going a little far but whatever) for not doing so. In my campaign, a Knight of Solamnia is a Knight of Solamnia, no matter the classes, PrC's, or powers. Ditto with the WoHS. No wizard walks around saying "haha I have moon magic, you dont... I'm dedicated". There are no second class citizens. While my girlfriend is a 4th level monk, she has dedicated herself from now on to magic. She knows she will catch a little flak for being a monk from other wizards, but then again.. they are desperate. They need more wizards.. so they arent "too" choosy. But while I dont have a problem of wizards giving her a hard time for being a monk also, I dont want to see where a person who goes up the whole way as a wizard and chooses not to take the PrC somehow is branded as not special or a dabbler. If people say the PrC is optional, it really should be. And not a "well you dont have to take it... but haha if you dont..." shrug I dunno maybe I made it worse than what it is, but I like to avoid that heh. Personally I believe the Arcane Research and the Order's Secrets are enough for the PrC. My brother is starting not to think so a little though heh. He keeps looking at the Red Robes secrets and sighing.. saying it'd be nice to get those. Black Robes are seriously lacking =\. It'd be nice to eventually see more secrets that are made up and "found" from earlier days or something like that. Add more variety.
#6 rooks Jan 04, 2005 15:07:36	...I dont want to see where a person who goes up the whole way as a wizard and chooses not to take the PrC somehow is branded as not special or a dabbler. If people say the PrC is optional, it really should be. And not a "well you dont have to take it... but haha if you dont..." shrug I dunno maybe I made it worse than what it is, but I like to avoid that heh. That's an excellent summary. I think you said it perfectly. And there are those meta-game aspects to the class which are in poor form to the roleplaying aspect of passing the test. Order secrets and whatnot - those I understand belonging to a PrC (to a degree) - but the Item of Power? The library access? How in the hell does any other wizard know if any other wizard has these meta-game levels in the PrC? Good topic. Difficult quandry.