1. Lord Soth failed to get Kitiara's soul, and lamented in his keep for generations, until Mina came to him, asking for his help in the "War of Souls". He refused, so Mina had Takasis remove his curse, and he was killed by Mina.
2. Lord Soth got sucked into Ravenloft, and tried to kill Strad Von Zarovitch and take over his domain. He was repelled, and went into the mists where he got his own domain called "Sithiclus" (The only domain primarly populated by elves), where once again the banshees and all that tormented him, and Kitiara's soul was just out of reach. A number of years later, a vishani and a Werebadger Dwarf decide to overthrow Lord Soth, unleashing the shadow rift, which sucks up Lord Soth. He returns to Krynn in "Spectre of the Black Rose", and now is back to do his evil.
3. Lord Soth was killed in the Age of Dispair in the adventure "The Death Knights of Kyrnn". He was destroyed when the Rod of Ominessence was used on him, causing him to be rended apart into nothing.
As for Kitiara, I heard she might be "Semi-Alive" in that she comes back as a Pengalian (A form of vampire who appears normal by day, but has its head de-attach from her body at night to seek out blood). I read about it in the Dagard Keep Module.
In 'Official' Dragonlance crazy little things like Soth's trip to Ravenloft... Dalamar, Elminster, and Modenkidan (sp) chatting it up, and other such interworld things are not true. Kender stories at best, nonsense at worst.
As for Kit as a Pengalian... no. As we've seen with just the original Chronicles series there are differences between the modules and the novels. Novels trump modules in a 'meta-plot' sense of official history. Kit is dead and stayed dead.
Of course in your own home campaign your milage may vary, but all future products will be written with Soth died durring the War of Souls in mind... untill they come up with something different.
Kitiara is not a vampiric head trailing her organs behind her, no.
There is no tarrasque in Lord Soth's basement.
Cheers,
Cam
There is no tarrasque in Lord Soth's basement.
Cam
Are you sure Cam? Common he might of named the Tarrasque Fido, or Fluffy. Taken him out on walks every couple of months.
There is no tarrasque in Lord Soth's basement.
Well, not after he called Orkin, anyway.
Lord Soth failed to get Kitiara's soul, and lamented her loss, until he got sucked into Ravenloft, and tried to kill Strad Von Zarovitch and take over his domain. He was repelled, and went into the mists where he got his own domain called Sithicus, where once again the banshees and all that tormented him, and Kitiara's soul was just out of reach. Sometime later a vishani and a werebadger dwarf decide to overthrow Lord Soth, unleashing the shadow rift, which sucks up Lord Soth. He returns to Krynn in Spectre of the Black Rose, until Mina comes to him, asking for his help in the War of Souls. He refuses, so Mina has Takhisis remove his curse, and Mina kills him.
I'd much prefer:
Lord Soth failed to get Kitiara's soul, and lamented her loss, until he got sucked into Ravenloft, and tried to kill Strad Von Zarovitch and take over his domain. He was repelled, and went into the mists where he got his own domain called Sithicus, where once again the banshees and all that tormented him, and Kitiara's soul was just out of reach. Sometime later a vishani and a werebadger dwarf decide to overthrow Lord Soth, unleashing the shadow rift, which sucks up Lord Soth. He returns to Krynn in Spectre of the Black Rose, until Mina comes to him, asking for his help in the War of Souls. He refuses, so Mina has Takhisis remove his curse, and Mina kills him.
I second the motion.
I also think he was released by the Dark Powers from Ravenloft due Soth coming to the realization that he himself was to blame for his for all his misfortunes and not due to the actions of others.
Fine, but that's beside the point. The point? I consider the Ravenloft Soth stories canon.
I enjoyed Knight of the Black Rose as well. I never did read the other novel. Was it good?
I enjoyed Knight of the Black Rose as well. I never did read the other novel. Was it good?
It was slower in pace, but yeah, I liked it a lot.
And IMC Soth was not destroyed by the Rod, only thrown in the direction of the mists and taken to Ravenloft (a prison from which he later managed to escape).
Obviously, I beleive Weis/Hickman have stated he did nto go to Ravenloftr and that is their perrogative
It is.. except that it carries no weight. Why? Because Soth's "trip" to RL is a well-documented fact of 2nd edition and thus "canon". They can rant about it all they like, it still happened.
Frankly, they should be happy RL "gave back" Soth to them. And the fact that the only thing they did was kill him permanently leads me to believe Soth should have stayed in RL. At least there he still had a role to play.
It is.. except that it carries no weight. Why? Because Soth's "trip" to RL is a well-documented fact of 2nd edition and thus "canon". They can rant about it all they like, it still happened.
Frankly, they should be happy RL "gave back" Soth to them. And the fact that the only thing they did was kill him permanently leads me to believe Soth should have stayed in RL. At least there he still had a role to play.
I totally agree with this as well, even though I was present at GenCon 2003, and when asked point blank, Ms Wiess responded as far as they were concerned Soth never went to Ravenloft, dispite evidence to the contrary. This statement has led me to believe that if Weiss and Hickman did not have a hand in creating elements in DL (such as the Dragonoverlords for example), these elements are either not long for the world, or quickly retconned.
... and when asked point blank, Ms Wiess responded as far as they were concerned Soth never went to Ravenloft, dispite evidence to the contrary.
It's not a matter of "evidence", it's a matter of control over their own creation. It's not that they don't believe Raveloft used the character, it's that they don't accept it as canon. Travelling to RL didn't mesh with how they view the world of Krynn to work, so in their minds Soth never went.
I could say that Aragorn was really a grey alien on the run from Mulder and Scully, and write stories and game materials to that end, but somehow I doulbt Tolkien Estates would accept it.
As the creators of Krynn, I'm inclined to go with Hickman's & Weiss's view of how it works and what happened there. Who is a better choice to define canon?
As far as who is better than Wiess/Hickman to determine official cannon, howabout someone who has been with DL from the start, I don't know, maybe Jeff Grubb or the editors at WOTC. While weis and Hickman have created DL they wrote Chronicals and Legends, then left for awhile, wrote Dosf, then left again, returned for WOS and though Margaret has stayed this time, Tracy is working on the Bronze Canticles stuff, though I'm sure he gives an opinion from time to time. Actually, this may be where they get their inspiration to write about the mortals feeling abandoned by the gods. They have left DL just as often. Just as the gods must know prove themselves to the mortals of Krynn, the original creators need to,IMHO, prove themselves agin to the fanbase. So far the have made a decent start, but with every ignored plotline from previous era's (Ulin studying to be a Dragon Mage, Severus Stonehand), as well as needless retcons (Soth, Skie being an Overlord all along) it seems they are taking the easy way out (remember the whole season of Dallas that was a dream). Why not build on some of these plot lines instead of ignoring them?
Now I know some people say: "Um he did a good act look how cool that was" and I say blah.. The guy indirectly killed thousands and thousands of people during the Cataclysm, his wife and son, and others during his "trial" and that whole debacle, etc. He is then cursed with becoming a Death Knight for all these reasons, doomed to live a lifetime for each life died in the Cataclysm. And he gets out by saying No to Takhisis? Its almost laughable to me.. but whatever. I'm sure some of the people who love Lord Soth think that its sooo cool and he's so redeemed!
Does anyone else find it funny that Paladine/Mishakel(can't remember which one) gave Lord Sorth undeath.. but practically untold power? I mean the guy obliverated the knights who stood up to him in Palanthus. Kind of seems stupid to me to curse the guy, but give him awesome powers in order to kill my own followers in the future. But who knew that Lord Soth would take his vengeance out on the KoS? Well.. I think most people would have guessed it...
Anyways.. I liked Ravenloft and liked Lord Soth being there. I think it fit and they did wonderful things with him. The novels were great. But Weis/Hickman maintain he didnt go there..fine no big deal.. most people could just ignore their comment. But then Lord Soth is given back to them..ok well whatever.. it happens now hes back in Dragonlance. And.... they kill him the first appearance he makes. And it goes.. Takhisis asks if he'll join.. he says no..and she drops his castle on him? Bah lame... especially considering Takhisis didnt make him fight in the War of the Lance, he only did that after a Dragon Highlord spent the night in his castle, and he would sevre *that* Highlord. So now Takhsis is mad because Soth won't serve her? Now I understand that maybe "his time had come".. but I think what some authors miss out on is the guy is undead. He literally sat in his castle for hundreds of years before the War of the Lance. Why couldn't he go away for a century.. or like 5-10 years of our time. I dont find it a hard stretch. Oh well..
Personally I find it a shame what happened to him at the end. His story is great and every time he is featured somewhere its neat. Until the end..
...True Mina supposedly killed him after Takhisis removed the curse I don't agree that she sould have been able to remove all of the curse because it always says he was cursed by the gods plural so in my mind she would have been able to only disolve her portion of the curse...
Well Paladine could have forgiven him the moment he refused to help Mina and Takhisis, and then removed the rest of it. Soth's suffered enough.
What I would be interested to know is whether he ended up being accepted into the Dome of Creation or the Hidden Vale. Regardless, he's bound to have hot elf chick action there. :D
What I would be interested to know is whether he ended up being accepted into the Dome of Creation or the Hidden Vale. Regardless, he's bound to have hot elf chick action there. :D
Actually, Ravenloft Gazetteer IV hints that his soul may have found its way back into Ravenloft and is working for the cause of good. :-) (They don't call him "Soth", since the developers never made it clear to the authors whether or not the licensing agreement allowed them to refer to Soth by name.)
As for the whole 'creators' business, how often have Terry Phillips and Harold Johnson been consulted about Raistlin and Tas? And I know Jeff Grubb wasn't talked to when the DoavM Appendix redefined the Krynnish pantheon (which has since been redefined again. :-) )
There are more creators in DL than W&H, folks, and very few of them get the devotion fans lavish on those two.
Matthew L. Martin, Dragonlance Apostate and Gadfly. :-)
True Mina supposedly killed him after Takhisis removed the curse I don't agree that she sould have been able to remove all of the curse because it always says he was cursed by the gods plural so in my mind she would have been able to only disolve her portion of the curse so I like to think that he is still around because of the other gods wouldn't let her destroy what they all were involved in creating.
Takhisis was the only god of Krynn. The was the pantheon. She was all the gods of krynn. She was the One God. There was no other god. If it was like a vote in comitee then only one person showed up. Takhisis could do it, because none of the other gods could disagree. I'll shut up now.
As Matthew L. Martin says Dragonlance is not just their personal playground which they can rip into whenever and however they see fit.
I don't much like anything they have written after legends they just aren't that good.
Knaak, Niles, Berberick, Herbert and others have contributed almost as much and of better quality. 
My point Soth did go to Ravenloft whatever those two infants say. :fight!:
The "Gods of Krynn" Weis and Hickman*massive sarcasm* threw a hissy fit reminiscent of a two ywear old child.
As Matthew L. Martin says Dragonlance is not just their personal playground which they can rip into whenever and however they see fit.
I don't much like anything they have written after legends they just aren't that good.
My point Soth did go to Ravenloft whatever those two infants say. :fight!:
Perspective is important. There is a school of thought that the TSR "Multiverse" weakened the integrity of the invidivual game worlds. Ravenloft had Soth, Spelljammer had Krynnish gnomes, and Planescape had both Takhisis and Tiamat to deal with.
I can see it from both sides. I've actually run Spelljammer and Ravenloft campaigns (more than one of the latter), as well as Dragonlance. I've used elements of Dragonlance in both "cross-over" game worlds (including the module When Black Roses Bloom), but when I run a Dragonlance campaign I don't even hint at the Mists or Giant Space Hamsters.
My biggest problem with Soth in Ravenloft is that his history and identity are so tightly integrated with that of Krynn that it just doesn't mean as much in Ravenloft. It doesn't mean much to a half-Vistani that Soth could have prevented the Cataclysm but did not, but it certainly does to any native of Ansalon. Also, Soth is a powerful villain with a tragic, even romantic history. He is a unique figure upon Krynn but in Ravenloft he is one of many darklords written in the same vein.
Ultimately, I don't have a problem with people using Soth in those other worlds. (I used him myself, after all.) But I was glad to see him back where he belongs, and glad to see his tale get some closure in War of Souls.
** Jamie
I look at it like this. Soth is the only baddy, bad enough to need to be in two different campaign settings. I don't know of any other evil character from any of the other settings (of course I do not research too much about the other settings) that has their own realm in Ravenloft. When he was sent back to Dragonlance, it was because the mists had finally bitten off more than they could chew.
Actually, there was one other villain that was imprisoned in RL, and then let go of: Vecna. I'm sure that there are Greyhawk fans who were just as upset, but TSR/WotC canon is that both Soth and Vecna were Darklords.
Actually, there was one other villain that was imprisoned in RL, and then let go of: Vecna. I'm sure that there are Greyhawk fans who were just as upset, but TSR/WotC canon is that both Soth and Vecna were Darklords.
Oh we don't usually mind it. After all, it was the logical conclusion of the Vecna Lives! module. And it's not like Vecna was 'stolen' forever anyway. He found a loophole and escaped RL to return as a more powerful deity than before.
He just missed the Wars, that's all ;)
Our biggest issue with that plotline was that none of us understood how the Dark Powers had managed to 'cage' Vecna, if only for a time, given he was a demi-god even back then.
Oh we don't usually mind it. After all, it was the logical conclusion of the Vecna Lives! module. And it's not like Vecna was 'stolen' forever anyway. He found a loophole and escaped RL to return as a more powerful deity than before.
This is a point worthy of note: Every established character Ravenloft has 'stolen' has already left the building. :-) Vecna disappeared at the end of Vecna Lives!, Soth may have gone missing as a result of the "Dargaard Keep" adventure in The World of Krynn, and Gondegal's disappearance was part of FR's backstory.
Our biggest issue with that plotline was that none of us understood how the Dark Powers had managed to 'cage' Vecna, if only for a time, given he was a demi-god even back then.
1. While Greater gods/powers can break the laws of Ravenloft, it's entirely possible intermediates, lessers, and/or demipowers can't--the precise upper bounds of the Dark Powers' influence has never been set in stone, and probably shouldn't be.
2. According to Vecna Reborn and Die Vecna Die, Vecna could have broken out without too much trouble--but the Dark Powers had the sense to distract him by sticking Kas right next door. :-) Even so, it only slowed down his escape.
Matthew L. Martin
Our biggest issue with that plotline was that none of us understood how the Dark Powers had managed to 'cage' Vecna, if only for a time, given he was a demi-god even back then.
My understanding is that as a result of the events in Vecna Lives, Vecna became tied in an unusual way to the Material Plane, and thus became easy prey for the Dark Powers. As a demi-god, he was unable to escape, but once he absorbed Iuz's powers in Die Vecna, Die!, he became the lesser god he is now, and was able to bust out.
To keep this on topic, it's not like Soth made a cameo in Ravenloft. He appeared in all three of the Ravenloft rules editions for 2E (the Black Box, the Red Box, and the Domains of Dread hardcover), in an adventure module, and two novels.
...it's not like Soth made a cameo in Ravenloft. He appeared in all three of the Ravenloft rules editions for 2E (the Black Box, the Red Box, and the Domains of Dread hardcover), in an adventure module, and two novels.
Thank you Professor, too many products to just ignore them. Another reason why the "No, Soth went nowhere" argument lingers, between being either childish or stupid. Soth went to Ravenloft, stayed for some time and then returned to Dragonlance and died. End of story.
I cannot understand why the writers have made a big deal of it?! Even more when all they keep stating is a "No" without a proper reasoning to back it up.
PS: At least tells us what Soth did if he did not went to Ravenloft and publish the proper novels.
I cannot understand why the writers have made a big deal of it?! Even more when all they keep stating is a "No" without a proper reasoning to back it up.
Because a lot of people think it's kind of dumb? Why should Ravenloft's and Krynn's cosmologies have to be twisted beyond recognition in order to work together? Obviously so TSR can sell a few more modules, but that's not exactly a satisfying reason to foul up the story in such a way.
Like I said on another thread, it's just a bit too "Scooby-Doo Meets the Harlem Globetrotters" for me. Why not just have the Beach Boys make a guest appearance and be done with it?
My take on it is let Krynn be Krynn - other world should maintain their own distinct feel and flavor.
Anyways, I think this argument wouldnt be so debated if the Soth books and adventures sucked... instead they are some of the best. Fans everywhere praise what was done with him. The two novels with Lord Soth I thought were great. Never played the adventures, so I guess I dont have much opinion on that. Havent heard too many bad things about them, but maybe I dont look in the right places.
What irks me the very most about Lord Soth being considered in Dragonlance... is that Weis and Hickman pretty much had him make a cameo in the War of Souls, just to die. Like literally it almost like they flipped the bird to TSR/WoTC and said "watch this.. we're killing him off". The death I think was one of the worse things I've ever seen. I've seen some fans who praise it, but I think it was so cheesy. Soth wasnt even required to join Takhisis in the War of the Lance and only did so after Kitiara stayed the night at Dargaard Keep(sp?). And now her follower comes up to him and says join, and when he says no.. she just destroys him? Again.. just seemed like they wanted to "prove a point" that its their character and they will do what they want. Which I think irks me the most.
Soth even fit into Ravenloft too. His kingdom was well done and he even still had the same feel. I dunno.. as you can tell I'm a fan of him in Ravenloft. I think the problem most people had when he went to Ravenloft that now he wasnt in Dragonlance. Well guess what.. he isnt anymore anyways. So you really didnt gain much. I guess you can say "well in my campaign he didnt die".. yea well you could have done that if he was in Ravenloft too. Just say he didnt go. Officially now both the worlds lost... because the guy is done. You know the guy spent hundreds of years at Dargaard Keep before coming out for the War of the Lance...couldnt we just have "retired" him for awhile and then brought him out roughly hundreds of years later in Dragonlance time. That would maybe be roughly 10+ years our time or some such thing. I think that could have opened up more opportunities than killing him off.
While I do like seeing in Dragonlance people dying even sometimes when they are the "favorite", as I've said before, this particular death I found to just be revenge more than anything. Who knows..
clarkvalentine.. are you telling me in your campaigns you never see anything from other worlds, campaigns, cosmotologies, etc? I dunno to me having one character come over in some way isnt that big deal. Its like importing a monster, spell, etc. Maybe its a bit more specific.. but I doubt there are many campaigns out there that "let Dragonlance be Dragonlance" or whatever. Everyone takes from other sources and no Dragonlance or any other world campaign syncs up exactly to what is published.
I think they should have "retired" Lord Soth to his keep for a decade or two and let him come back when it fits into the storyline. The way he was permanently disposed of seemed rather abrupt, to say the least. It's almost like all the loose ends of the past had to be tied up.
On another note, I was talking to someone who isn't a hardcore DL fan but is turned off by his perception that DL is constantly being pushed forward when its best days are in the past. He thinks that DL's core base loves the Chronicles era or those involving Raistlin, and everything since then has been lacklustre, trying to live up to the glorydays. I dunno if I agree or not, but I almost get a sense that the DL producers are trying to wipe out the past so they don't have to go back to it. Although the WotL book did just come out, so who knows.
The real questions is, when is the revised Classic series going to be redone? That's a license to print money...
Because a lot of people think it's kind of dumb? Why should Ravenloft's and Krynn's cosmologies have to be twisted beyond recognition in order to work together? Obviously so TSR can sell a few more modules, but that's not exactly a satisfying reason to foul up the story in such a way.
You obviously haven't read Knight of the Black Rose and its sequel Spectre of the Black Rose, have you?
Soth's addition to RL made a lot of sense, especially back in 2E when RL 'collected' the most evil beings of the universe. Heck! I bet they thought of taking Raistlin too but the authors would have had a fit if they had.
All fans of RL agree that Soth not only made a formidable dark lord, but the addition of his domain (Sithicus) in the Southern Core was a blessing given the region was generally hostile to non-human races.
At least there he served a purpose and brought terror to quite a few. Far better than to gather dust in Krynn till the DL authors remembered about him, I would think!
You obviously haven't read Knight of the Black Rose and its sequel Spectre of the Black Rose, have you? Soth's addition to RL made a lot of sense, especially back in 2E when RL 'collected' the most evil beings of the universe.
I think you missed my point. It's the entire notion of one setting "collecting" characters from other settings that I find a bit silly. If it's assumed that two settings are actually one (and hence can swap characters), it disturbs the uniqueness and individuality of each, changing both into something they were never intended to be. On top of that it seems like the sort of uncreative tricks sitcom writers turn to when they can't think of anything else to do. I think, anyway.
This is why some folks don't like it, anyway. I think that's a good reason. A reason that intelligent people can disagree with, for certain, but it's a reason nonetheless.
clarkvalentine, do you guys not use anything from other worlds? No spells, magical items, feats, etc? I mean those are sometimes made with other worlds in mind, but can still be brought over to Dragonlance. As I've said before, I realize that Lord soth is a little bit more specific, but to me its pretty similar.
I guess the reason why a lot of people like him in Ravenloft is because ot worked so well. And the books were so great. If it had flopped, I'm sure a lot of people would be saying "that was stupid, I can't believe anyone would do that". Isnt it possible that a "guest appearance" could work? I mean there's no way that you believe no matter what, it will always suck.. right? I guess you could, I dunno heh.
Heck as I said above, they might as well have kept him in Ravenloft. By bringing him back all they did was kill him off anyways. Now both the settings have lost...yay
clarkvalentine, do you guys not use anything from other worlds? No spells, magical items, feats, etc? I mean those are sometimes made with other worlds in mind, but can still be brought over to Dragonlance. As I've said before, I realize that Lord soth is a little bit more specific, but to me its pretty similar.
Of course we do. Those are all just supplementary rules that we can file the serial numbers off. Clark's a player in my Dragonlance campaign and I'm a player in his Carribean pirates campaign, and we both make use of various sourcebooks and supplements. That's entirely different from importing background and plot elements from other worlds. Elminster never guest stars in my game. I mean, come on, it's a Dragonlance campaign, not a multiversial cross-worldaganza.
Soth's use in the Ravenloft setting was clearly a means of getting Dragonlance fans to buy Ravenloft material and act as a signpost into the setting for those fans. There's no other reason to use him. If they wanted free reign, they could have created another death knight (one that didn't come with as much baggage).
Cheers,
Cam
clarkvalentine, do you guys not use anything from other worlds? No spells, magical items, feats, etc? I mean those are sometimes made with other worlds in mind, but can still be brought over to Dragonlance. As I've said before, I realize that Lord soth is a little bit more specific, but to me its pretty similar.
We don't import what doesn't have a Krynnish explanation. Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Eberron, etc. don't exist as far as our characters are concerned, just like Aragorn didn't spend time thinking about Narnia, and I personally don't spend time travelling to the Land of Oz in a tornado.
The worlds are seperate.
Spells, feats, etc. are not characters. Characters have personality, motivation, a past, one deeply rooted in the setting for which they were created. (To an extent, magic items fit this as well.) Spells and feats usually (but not always) have an easy way of importing the basic idea, without disturbing the continuity of the world. Characters do not.
Isnt it possible that a "guest appearance" could work? I mean there's no way that you believe no matter what, it will always suck.. right? I guess you could, I dunno heh.
Honestly? I do believe that. The basic idea of mixing settings doesn't appeal to me. It's a dealbreaker for me.
I completely agree that it's a matter of subjective opinion.
The Dragonlance universe is alone and have different story then the Ravenloft universe.
I just say that it wasn't Lord Soth, it was Lord Soht!
This is my first post!
Soth's use in the Ravenloft setting was clearly a means of getting Dragonlance fans to buy Ravenloft material and act as a signpost into the setting for those fans. There's no other reason to use him. If they wanted free reign, they could have created another death knight (one that didn't come with as much baggage).
That's a bit harsh, Cam. Considering what has been done with Soth on Krynn since the end of the Legends trilogy (namely letting him gather dust and then destroying him for good to make sure nobody else could use him again), I wonder why people are so angry about the fact that he was put to "good use" in RL for a while?
I can certainly agree that part of the decision to abduct him to RL was to bring more fans to the setting based on Soth's reputation but reducing his whole arrival to the "$ factor" strikes me as unfair.
All the other settings had already contributed villains and, as far as Krynn was concerned, the only local bad boy was a mercenary from Taladas. So, adding someone from Ansalon was just logical. And given Soth was totally inactive in the DL novels at the time, why not him?
Don't forget that for a very long time, Soth was the one and only death knight of Krynn. We're talking of a time when "templates" were still a thing of the future. Heck! The next time "new" death knights were introduced on Krynn was in the description of Palanthas found in the War Captain's Companion. How about that? It was in a Spelljammer accessory!
Moreover, Soth was at the basis of the creation of the RL domain of Sithicus. No other death knight could have justified that domain as it existed in its first (as in "pre-Soth's departure") incarnation.
Simply put, we RL fans were darn glad for his presence and I can't remember a single time when someone would have voiced an objection on the basis that the arrival of Soth was just an evil plot of TSR's marketing department ;)
Last but not least, back then ALL the heroes/villains of ALL the settings were the exclusive property of TSR. So, when someone "dragged" Soth from DL to RL, he/she did so with the full approval of TSR. Blaming that person for not anticipating a time when TSR would become WotC and "rent" DL to another company is just plain unfair.
I can certainly agree that part of the decision to abduct him to RL was to bring more fans to the setting based on Soth's reputation but reducing his whole arrival to the "$ factor" strikes me as unfair.
I can't see it as being anything else. The inclusion of any villain from another world in Ravenloft was a marketing decision to target fans of those settings and bring them into the RL product line as customers. It really has nothing to do with whether Ravenloft needed him or not, from a story point of view, because Ravenloft didn't. In fact, Sithicus can't be a justification for his inclusion because Sithicus was just a way to make sure he would fit. Sithicus is as much a market decision as Soth's inclusion was.
Do note that I'm not blaming anybody for anything, nor am I saying anything about how right or wrong it was to do it. I just don't see it as being necessarily logical or making any kind of real sense outside of a business one. And that's fine, because it really did seem to act as the lightning rod for crossover events for Ravenloft gamers who used to be (or still were) Dragonlance fans.
Cheers,
Cam
I can't see it as being anything else. The inclusion of any villain from another world in Ravenloft was a marketing decision to target fans of those settings and bring them into the RL product line as customers. It really has nothing to do with whether Ravenloft needed him or not, from a story point of view, because Ravenloft didn't.
Maybe its just me being an author but the idea that any of this goes beyond money strikes me as hypocrisy and self delusion. Dragonlance exists to make money for its creators and the same for all the other settings. Those who say otherwise are only hurting themselves. Publishers supply a product and people who like the product buy it.
It's the nature of business.
It's just like why Leonardo Davinchi made the Mona Lisa. Because someone PAID him to make the Mona Lisa. Examining motivations for an art's value is shameful and the mark of someone who can't appreciate art.
Now that that's out of the way, Soth's work in Ravenloft was some of his best and if you attempt to judge it by motivation...I think you can't attack its validity art wise....which is examining Soth's role as a tragic character.
Weis and Hickman's decision rubs me the wrong way because they didn't seem to address the value of Soth's adventures as art.
Quite honestly, Ravenloft is Hell and they could have incorporated the idea that Soth thought he was in the Abyss the entire time if they wanted to. They chose not to.
I can't see it as being anything else. The inclusion of any villain from another world in Ravenloft was a marketing decision to target fans of those settings and bring them into the RL product line as customers.
Actually, I think the inclusion of Soth may have been an attempt to boost Dragonlance sales by cross-marketing it in their hot new release.
Why?
1. For all the talk about using Soth to lure in DL fans, he wasn't played up much at all in the promotional material, or even in the original box. He was the focus of the second novel, of course, and cross-marketing was all the rage at that point, with the RAVENLOFT and SPELLJAMMER novels both cross-referencing to the Realms and Krynn in their first releases.
2. According to the retrospectives in DRAGON #315 and Thirty Years of Adventure, TSR management was perpetually skeptical about DL's viability--did they even think Dragonlance gaming had a major fan base to try and attract to Ravenloft?
3. The original Realm of Terror box works much harder to cross-sell DRAGONLANCE products than it does any other line. It refers to Krynn as being detailed in the DRAGONLANCE products in the section on portals from other worlds, which it does for no other world. The Sithicus writeup says "See the DRAGONLANCE products for details on Soth's life on Krynn", and the writeup of Vlad Drakov directs readers to Time of the Dragon for details on his homeland--something it doesn't do for Hazlik, Gondegal, or Harkon Lukas, all characters with or given a FORGOTTEN REALMS background. Indeed, aside from the core rulebooks, the only other products referenced in the "Black Box" are a reference to the Indian material in the soon-to-be-released Legends and Lore and a passing reference to the FORGOTTEN REALMS Monstrous Compendium Appendix in the description of the revenant Ratik Ubel.
Put it all together, and I think we have at least as strong a case for Soth being included to try and push Dragonlance to Ravenloft purchasers as vice versa. However, I'm not going to commit to anything more than a theory unless I can track down someone who was actually there.
Matthew L. Martin
Now that that's out of the way,
Given that he's a professional RPG writer, I daresay Cam is well aware of the business of RPGs, and if you look carefully at Cam's post you'll see he was not attacking it based on its business motivations.
Given that he's a professional RPG writer, I daresay Cam is well aware of the business of RPGs, and if you look carefully at Cam's post you'll see he was not attacking it based on its business motivations.
I'm aware of such and all the wonderful things he's produced for Dragonlance. I did want to make the statement though (not aimed at Cam at all but instead at people who judge decisions by money motivations) that I'm tired of people attacking RPG companies on being industries.
They should judge the content of the work.
..., and the writeup of Vlad Drakov directs readers to Time of the Dragon for details on his homeland--something it doesn't do for Hazlik, Gondegal, or Harkon Lukas, all characters with or given a FORGOTTEN REALMS background.
...
Time of the Dragon?! Are you saying that Vlad came from Taladas!? Or is there a FR supplement with the same name?
Time of the Dragon?! Are you saying that Vlad came from Taladas!? Or is there a FR supplement with the same name?
Vlad came from Taladas, the Thenol area to be specific.
Raph, how many times will I have to tell you to get a copy of the Domains of Dread pdf? It's the ultimate index of where each darklord came from ;)
I thought I could evade buying DoD by posting a thread on the RL boards concerning the Origin of the Darklords; but apparently the info I got from there was wrong... Given that I am an absolute Taladas crack AND doing a a DL campaign in Thenol AND a RL campaign with Vlad as a protagonist, it's really dumb that I didn't know before... would have given so much new possibilities...
But, as you are an old Birthright - addict too, it might interest you that I use the Vampire my Thenol campaign...
I only have *Secrets of the Dread Realms*, but there's no info on the Lords' original homes...
Will look for DoD as soon as I can (afford it
)...Anyway, thank you very much, Mortepierre! That Info was VERY important for me!
Secondly, how is the solution to Lord Soth not being available in Dragonlance products, to kill him off?
I'm sorry to keep beating an undead horse, but I don't really see what is the problem. TSR published a series of sourcebooks, a module, two novels, and a short story, all of which clearly states that Lord Soth was abducted by the Dark Powers of Ravenloft, and made the Darklord of Sithicus. Sithicus has Silvanesti elves and undead kender, and until Spectre of the Black Rose, the moon was Nuitari.
That was the other Lord Soth.
Secondly, how is the solution to Lord Soth not being available in Dragonlance products, to kill him off?
I like the way Soth ended. Very fitting, and the last laugh is on him. With Takhisis' death and the gods' return, his soul was freed and very likely went on to the afterlife, redeemed. Isn't that nice? A friend of mine rightly pointed out that Soth is Krynn's Othello. It's a shame he's gone, but he did need to go.
Cheers,
Cam
Crossover is bad. Very bad. Not only does it dilute themes, but it adds so much excess bagage to the game, including rules adjestments. Dragonlance, expecially in its earlier stages, was very anti-crossover.
Virtually any magic-wielding class that landed on Krynn was screwed, either by being renegade or not having any power. Those who travelled there had a good chance of being 'stuck' there, because the Gods of Krynn tried so hard to shield it from other worlds. However, Ravenloft is not a world, it is a plane. If you have planes in your game, there should atleast be a hint of the dark vortex of evil known as Ravenloft...leaving us in some gray territory.
But what does it matter, really? Soth would undoubtably be silent about his experiences on Ravenloft.
On the Hickman/Weis deal...well...I don't know what to make of it. They may have been dicks by doing it, but if they had put a bit more effort into his death, we probably wouldn't be having this argument.
And Ravenloft is cooler than Dragonlance. :evillaugh
EDIT: Man, Cam really reminds me Justin Achilli...
Personally my only problem was with his "death". I thought it was cheesy, not very inventive, and felt like they were giving the finger to Ravenloft by doing it. I've seen a lot of people who said they liked his death, I just can't agree
Soth wasnt even required to join Takhisis in the War of the Lance and only did so after Kitiara stayed the night at Dargaard Keep(sp?). And now her follower comes up to him and says join, and when he says no.. she just destroys him?
Also, everyone thinks he did such a noble thing. Personally I think the guy got off pretty good. He was supposed to live a lifetime for every life that he caused to die.. and he only lasted what 350 years or so..maybe 450..I dunno something like that. What is that.. one elf? Heck if I was him I'd do the same thing.
Also, as I said before, basically they were given Soth back.. and they just killed him the first chance they got. Almost as if to say.. "yea..what can you do with him now?" He would have been better off in Ravenloft and developed. Everyone says the guy's time had passed... thats fine.. retire him for awhile. He existed in his castle for hundreds of years before he came out for the War of the Lance.. can't you do that again? Send him away for a few hundred years in game time.. like a decade our time. People got tired of Raistlin, Tas, etc because they would pop up *all the time*. If you didnt do that, when Soth actually did do something and was shown again, everyone would be like "Oh man thats cool!" and "I wonder whats going to happen with him now". We never got that with Tas, Raistlin, etc because the guys were always thrown in our faces and it got old.
Personally, Lord Soth was an innovative, intriguing, great character. All the way up until he was featured in War of Souls. That whole cameo(which was exactly what it was) should just be gotten rid of. He didnt even seem like the character. And for that I find it unfortunate.
So basically Dragonlance got Lord Soth back, and lost him right away. That helped out... well.. no one really. I guess Ravenloft fans did get "served" and shown that Dragonlance people protect their own creations.. but now neither world's fans benefit. Kind of a loss in my opinion. Dragonlance fans rejoice at getting him back.. but what did you gain? I guess peice of mind that his body is in Krynn.. if it didnt fall to dust heh..
You obviously haven't read Knight of the Black Rose and its sequel Spectre of the Black Rose, have you?
Soth's addition to RL made a lot of sense, especially back in 2E when RL 'collected' the most evil beings of the universe. Heck! I bet they thought of taking Raistlin too but the authors would have had a fit if they had.
All fans of RL agree that Soth not only made a formidable dark lord, but the addition of his domain (Sithicus) in the Southern Core was a blessing given the region was generally hostile to non-human races.
I read "Knight of the Black Rose" and totally hated it! (Then again, there weren't very many RL novels that I did like. :P )
Sure, his being there made sense from a gaming point of view, but to be honest the entire thing to me stank of marketing gimmickry. ("Hey, let's get the two hottest AD&D Undead bada**es and have them meet up! Sparks'll fly, and people will think it's cool!") To me it was a lot like the reasoning behind "Star Trek: Generations", both produced great fanboy moments, but in the end lacked any real substance.
From a literary point of view, it didn't really work for me either, since Krynn wasn't originally supposed to be part of the standard D&D cosmology; Takhisis was never Tiamat, Paladine was never Bahamut, the Abyss is not the same as the one where Demogorgon and Orcus live, etc. Based on that, Lord Soth had about as much business being there as the Witch King of Angmar. Later on, of course, TSR tried to unify all their campaign worlds under one big multiverse, with products like Spelljammer, Planescape and Ravenloft. Whenever they tried to make Krynn fit in, however, it tended to produce problems (which they acknowledged in one or two of their Planescape supplements, but never gave any definitive solution to.)
It's difficult to say what WotC's official stance is now, given their "separate cosmologies" policy. In theory it shouldn't really be possible. I don't know where this leaves Soth's official RL appearances in 2nd ed. products. Ultimately WotC will probably designate them as non-canon or retcon them into being somebody else (ie. the "Dark Knight/Blackguard")
And Ravenloft is cooler than Dragonlance. :evillaugh
Erm... that's open to debate! I'll admit it can be cool, but the products have been rather mixed to me. Oh well, at least they're better than most of the RL stuff that came out during 2nd ed!
Man, Cam really reminds me Justin Achilli...
Does that mean if look hard enough, I'd find stories of Cam attacking bar patrons with glass bottles??? Cool! :P
Of course, the new setting (before Amber and Ashes) is really cool.
Now, about the whole multiverse thing... I can see your point. TSR wanted everything to sell, and what better way than crossovers! I think that minor links between worlds would have been good, to satiate those that want really epic games. However, I agree with you that it got very rediculous.
From a literary point of view, it didn't really work for me either, since Krynn wasn't originally supposed to be part of the standard D&D cosmology; Takhisis was never Tiamat, Paladine was never Bahamut, the Abyss is not the same as the one where Demogorgon and Orcus live, etc. Later on, of course, TSR tried to unify all their campaign worlds under one big multiverse, with products like Spelljammer, Planescape and Ravenloft. Whenever they tried to make Krynn fit in, however, it tended to produce problems (which they acknowledged in one or two of their Planescape supplements, but never gave any definitive solution to.)
Actually, it may be that Krynn was connected to the AD&D multiverse first, depending on whether the 1E Manual of the Planes came out before or after Dragonlance Adventures.
And Demogorgon shows up in "A Stone's Throw Away". :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Actually, it may be that Krynn was connected to the AD&D multiverse first, depending on whether the 1E Manual of the Planes came out before or after Dragonlance Adventures
At the time, it's something of a moot point. There wasn't really an AD&D multiverse per se, at least not from a marketing point of view. They had started talking about worlds and it was established that Krynn was its own separate fantasy world, but given the kitchen sink nature of everything AD&D at the time it's not surprising that DLA mentions characters coming in from other campaigns (which really meant, "your own home campaign world that you play AD&D games in" rather than "Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms or whatever else").
2nd edition's the real beginning of this stuff. 1st edition laid some of the groundwork for the ideas guys to work on.
Cheers,
Cam
...but given the kitchen sink nature of everything AD&D at the time it's not surprising that DLA mentions characters coming in from other campaigns (which really meant, "your own home campaign world that you play AD&D games in" rather than "Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms or whatever else").
I always thought that DLA was done that way so that you could import your favorite character into DL.
*shrugs*
I always thought that DLA was done that way so that you could import your favorite character into DL.
*shrugs*
Yes, that's what I meant.
Cheers,
Cam