I mean, in the past they had Raistlin at 20th level and Fisty at 23rd. To most people those two were grossly underpowered, especially when Fisty was around for over a thousand years and Raistlin (conceivably) defeated Takhisis and traveled through time.
The question is, do you think they are aware that the fans would like to see Raistin and others at the appropriate level? Even npc wizards from Forgotton Realms who are only listed as side notes in sourcebooks are beyond both Raist and Fisty of old.
...are aware of their fans desire to see the Hero's and Villains statted out in their appropriate level?
Of course. Then it just hinges on what "appropriate level" means, doesn't it?
Cheers,
Cam
Here's a hint: His brother was a drunk once, and he had a student named Dalamar.
Cheers,
Cam
Raistlin was smart. He planned things out, most of all he used people: the companions, his brother, Crysania, thats where his true 'power' was. He had a plan to draw Takhisis out and hit her when she was vulnerable, it would take skill, daring, and yes, power... but not OMFG HE MUST BE LEVEL 50!
People forget that 20 IS powerful, incredibly mind bogglingly powerful, and nothing to be scoffed at. I fully expect Raist to be epic level durring Legends, but I doubt he touched 30.
People always seem to think Raist was all powerful. I don't remember, (other than perhaps Raistlin's ring of fire taking out that villiage in Legends and that's been statted up as a 6th level spell) Raist EVER using some overt display of power to justify the stupidly high level so many demand he 'needs' to be. Sure he mastered the Dragonorb, but don't forget Laurana did also.
Raistlin was smart. He planned things out, most of all he used people: the companions, his brother, Crysania, thats where his true 'power' was. He had a plan to draw Takhisis out and hit her when she was vulnerable, it would take skill, daring, and yes, power... but not OMFG HE MUST BE LEVEL 50!
People forget that 20 IS powerful, incredibly mind bogglingly powerful, and nothing to be scoffed at. I fully expect Raist to be epic level durring Legends, but I doubt he touched 30.
I never suggested he should be 50th level but thanks for the exaggeration.
C'mon though, no doubt Raist was a clever SOB but don't make it sound like just because he didn't overtly use his power that he didn't have it. A few times it was brought up that Raist could conquer the worold tomorrow if he wanted to. THAT would take quite a bit of power wouldn't it? Or how about the battle beneath Neraka when the black robed mages escaped via wish spells when Raist entered battle with them? That would take quite a display of power to make 9th level spell wielding mages flee.
I'm not saying that Raist should be 50th level, I have never been crazy with stats. I would however expect him to at least have a CR of 30 and having access to casting more than one Epic Level spell a day. Like I said, Raist defeated in combat the most powerful mage to ever grace Krynn, yet there are characters in FR who are listed as higher level yet they are no more then a sidenote in some random sourcebook. I know this isn't FR and I shouldn't compare but I know the fans of Dragonlance would not like the idea of Raistlin getting tooled left and right by over 1000 mages on Abeir-Toril.
In addition, a thousand+ year old Fisty with access to the Blood Stone should be just a tad higher than 23rd IMO when people like Justarious, Dalamar, Ladonna, Palin, etc can get close in less than 70 years. An 18th level mage can defeat a 23rd level mage in combat-it's not an outrageous thought. But could Par-Salian compare to Fisty or Raist any day of the week? Hell no.
My point is that the fans would like to see them with sufficient and appropriate level. The exaggerated 50 of course is way too high but I don't think a 30-35 CR is outrageous (including the +4 for the template). It's appropriate IMO. What do you think?
Let's face it, no matter what level Raistlin is statted for, people won't be happy. Some fans will invariably think he's not powerful enough, while others will insist that Sovereign Press has become a bunch of power-gamers. In addition, there will always be people who erroneously follow the "logic" that A) Raistlin is 30th level, therefore B) Takhisis must be less than 30th level.
I know characters from other worlds/sources that don't have stats, and overall, I think Raistlin would be better without them.
Personally, I would place Raistlin at Wiz 5/WoHS 10/Loremaster 8/ Archmage 5 (generous, very generous), with the Reserves of Strength feat (remember, after casting Timereaver, he was knocked unconscious, well he used the feat to boost his spellcaster level high enough to go to the Dwarfgate War), and Spell Power abilities. Perhaps have him possess a unique ability available only to the the Master of the Past and Present that boosts his caster level for time related spells (such as Haste, Time Stop, Timeheal, Timereaver, etc.) by a few levels. If one figures in Moon Magic, let's say that Nuitari and Lunitari were in conjunction, giving Raist a +2 to caster level. So with Reserves of Strength he get's a +3, Spell Power gives a +1, let's say a +3 due to being the Master of the Past and Present, and +2 due to Moon Magic, that gives Raistlin a 37 Caster Level, which leaves him a year before the Dwarfgate War starts to build an army and plan stuff out.
On the other hand, one thing that's most fun for me about D&D, and d20 in general, is imagining how I'd model these characters. What classes would Magua from Last of the Mohicans be? Jon Snow from The Song of Ice and Fire? Gandalf? Conan the Barbarian? Etc. I enjoy making up my own sometimes.
People always seem to think Raist was all powerful. I don't remember, (other than perhaps Raistlin's ring of fire taking out that villiage in Legends and that's been statted up as a 6th level spell) Raist EVER using some overt display of power to justify the stupidly high level so many demand he 'needs' to be. Sure he mastered the Dragonorb, but don't forget Laurana did also.
Raistlin was smart. He planned things out, most of all he used people: the companions, his brother, Crysania, thats where his true 'power' was. He had a plan to draw Takhisis out and hit her when she was vulnerable, it would take skill, daring, and yes, power... but not OMFG HE MUST BE LEVEL 50!
People forget that 20 IS powerful, incredibly mind bogglingly powerful, and nothing to be scoffed at. I fully expect Raist to be epic level durring Legends, but I doubt he touched 30.
I have to concur on some of this. For example, Fistandantillus in the KingPriest Trilogy makes some very powerfull showing of his magic and his threats. While Raist say's a lot, it does not accomplish that much.
Also, when Raist was close to exiting the Abyss, he mentioned more about the forces of nature coming to his aide, other gods, etc, etc, all falling to him to defeat the Queen of Darkness. Not as much about him "defeating" the Queen on his own.
...are aware of their fans desire to see the Hero's and Villains statted out in their appropriate level?QUOTE]
bwahahahahahahaha!!!!
Sorry...snicker.....no really....snort...hehe
That's was the sources books by SP are about. The amount of times the appropriate level of Raistlin has been debated on these and other fine boards would make a man rich if he got a nickel for it every time a thread was started.If you want to see the appropriate level of the heroes and villians buy the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, Age of Mortals, and War of the Lance books by Soverign Press.
By the way I think they're very aware of it since they're writing these books.
I just don't see a 22nd or 23rd level wizard warranting this kind of fear. Now *maybe* if you added a bunch of templates onto this.. maybe I could see it. I still feel that with the things Raistlin did, especially the draining of Fistandilus would make his levels skyrocket. Fistandilus had the knowledge of the ages.. between what Raistlin had done and studied and the adding on the abilities and knowledge of Fistandilus.. I just think it would make him high up there.
While I agree it was said that nature and other things would come to his aid when Takhisis came into the world, you have to think that he beat *all* of Takhisis's legions in the Abyss. I dont think that is an easy feat for a 20th level human. He beat all her legions.. and eventually she had to come and fight. We're not talking about just 30 or so spells.. he would have to have massive amounts of spells and even epic ability to do so, in my opinion. Yes I do know that a 20th level wizard has a lot of spells, but these are Takhisis's faithful and powerful.
I dunno.. personally I think Raistlin should be high up there because of everything that happened. But then again I think Arakias was statted too high. Everyone has different views. I just dont see a 20th level or so wizard as a threat to the whole world. Granted its high, even for Dragonlance, but to make everyone else tremble? I dunno..for some reason I dont buy it..
Then again, Tanis must have got REALLY lucky as a 6th level fighter to drop a 20th level guy like this. Then again Akaris was caught off guard cause he didn't suspect Tanis to attack him (Coupe De Gras attack because of it), and with a decent damage roll, he could possibly have made Arakias make a Fortitude Save aginst massive damage, which was his deathblow. He died from one blow from Tanis (The sword also pierced his heart as well, quite a mortal wound, and the sword was magical, so that might have given it some Umph. Would expect some help from the gods in there too).
Then again, Tanis must have got REALLY lucky as a 6th level fighter to drop a 20th level guy like this.
Tanis wasn't 6th level when he killed Ariakas.
He was 6th level by the time he'd come out of Xak Tsaroth. Near the end of Chronicles he was probably closer to 13th or 14th level.
Cheers,
Cam
and he rolled three 20s in a row.
Naw...all he needed was on 20 and "Death from Massive Damage."
Naw...all he needed was on 20 and "Death from Massive Damage."
Maybe it would be justified to give Tanis some rogue levels to chalk this up as some sneak attack damage as well :P
If a PC does something really cool, and lands a devestating blow on a bad guy significantly more powerful than he is, lower the massive damage threshold for cinematic purposes. This happened in Chronicles, obviously. Tolkien made extensive use if it as well - Isildur taking down Sauron, Bard dispatching Smaug, Eowyn and Merry finishing off the Witch King.
I remember one time years ago, a friend of mine was running this sci-fi/fantasy game using the AD&D rules. I was playing a dual-classed fighter/thief, and my friend was playing a half-elf ranger.
We were in a virtual reality version of Mortal Kombat, so to speak, and could battle each other for yucks. To this day, my friend is still mad that I took down his 9th-level ranger with my 6th-level thief. ;)
Of course, my other buddy's drow ranger is a prime example why balance in gaming is a good thing. He was like a blender!
Also, take into account that this was a dramatic story moment. They weren't rolling the dice here, and not all story moments can be explained through game mechanics.
Thats a neat idea, but if that mechanic were made available to PCs I assure you it would be abused heinously. Every session would turn into an episode of Dragon Ball Z or a game of Mortal Kombat (test your might!) ;)
Well, yeah. It's completely dependent on GM fiat, which is prone to hideous abuse in the general case.
I guess what it comes down to is that novels are novels, and RPG sessions aren't novels.
Well, yeah. It's completely dependent on GM fiat, which is prone to hideous abuse in the general case.
I guess what it comes down to is that novels are novels, and RPG sessions aren't novels.
RPG sessions share many more elements in common with movies or TV than novels, actually. That's something I tend to exploit.
Cheers,
Cam