Heck, I even liked it when the Gods were gone. And replacing the empty seats would be, I don't know, a tarnish on the sacrifice made by Paladine and the villainy committed by Takhisis.
Actually, I'd rather see one of the Neutral deities bite the dust. Heck, if I could get say, Reorx into a Source server for a little Counter Strike action? I'd own that son-of-a-gully dwarf. And I even suck!
If you seeThe Balance as sort of a flat triangle with balanced on a point than I'd image there are going to be some problems right quick...
Either way I'm sure at least one of the creative minds behind dragonlance has given this some serious thought... good campaign fodder though.
If you seeThe Balance as sort of a flat triangle with balanced on a point than I'd image there are going to be some problems right quick...
In Ashes and Amber Chemosh says that Gilean is barely hanging on so it can be assumed that this the case.
Hell, even as the world completely slid to the Side of Light prior to the Cataclysm, even as Solinari was unquestionably furious about what happened to the ORders of Magic, the pendulumn still swayed with the forces of Light anyway.
I would argue that some sort of quest perhaps to elevate someone to Godhood may be in order. I have hinted in my campaigns (which break continuity as set by DragonLance) that before the 1st Dragon War, there was an "Ancient Empire" and during that time, CHemosh was once mortal but was able to elevate himself to godhood.
Perhaps elevating people to godhood to "even things out" may be in order.
Mina colud fill in the empty throne of darkness, she is kinda
high level and all. and for gods of light i see...well...no one.. Hell Where are all the good guys of awesompoewr gone.? maybe that girl whats her name? new leader of the white robes...she seems destined for great things..Or they could just elevate Mischakal to queen of light, and Sargonas to Lord of Darkness..and leave it at that.
I just hope Dragonlance gets balanced allready!, am really tired of all the constat wars of apocaliptic results and such, gods coming and going, geography shifting, to much changes in te campagin, nothing is stable. So i hope the balance this out and let the poor world alone allready...am tired of the changes. to...muu...ch...
If Raistlin were to seek it now, he probalby would be granted such a position.
But what's done is done & I wouldn't like a cheap "they're gods again".
Also, I don't want any mortals - whether from Krynn nor from somewhere else - appearing among Krynn's gods. It would just be like Forgotten Realms: "Missing some gods? Elevate some mortals. They might get the job done ... or not." And if the (or rather : SOME, that is, the loudest) fans don't like the new gods, you can always bring old ones back in a more or less #?! way.
No thanks.
I like the FR (but value DL way more highly!!!), but I don't want DL becoming another FR (though the changes wrought over the last years (5th age, age of mortals, and especially 3E) sometimes give me the impression that DL might become a "standard"-fantasy world where you can put just everything in it).
So, what's done is done. No return for Paladine (sniff) and Takhisis (well, OK, sniff). No mortals taking their place.
Maybe, but just maybe, godly children might take the (vacant?) seats in the heavens / abyss.
So there are some options to how this gets resolved:
1) Gilean falls: Then the balance is 6-6-6... heh. He could simply perish like Paladine or Takhisis, or to preserve the balance he withdraws from the modern world to simply observe it and to Judge of the dead. Since he has very few spellcasting servants (since the aesthetics are not clerics) it isn't much of a problem. However, this would seemingly sideline the Highgod, which does much the same thing already.
2) Takhisis returns: Yes, I know we all got sick of her, but she was an excellent villain. I already miss the Dark Aphrodite, the Temptress, the Dark Warrior, the Queen of the Night.
3) Messiah x2: New gods step up to fill the role. This is the one I would prefer, as long as the new diety created wasn't a copy of one we already have. Ariakan, for example, would be too much like Sargonnas. This includes Paladine and Takhisis. If I was to bring in a new Dragon King and Queen, I would rather ressurect those two.
Personally, I like the idea of a diety of purity and children for the new god of good. For the god of evil, I find myself less certain on what to do. I once believed a goddess of madness would be welcome addition, but then realized that madness should be added to Morgion's portfolio in order to make the God interesting.
So black magic, trickery and greed, storms and destruction, violence, warfare and vengence, death and undeath, disease and madness, are all taken. Lust, Tyranny, and Darkness used to belong to Takhisis. So what's left for the gods of evil to promote?
Heresy perhaps?
http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine/oops/Maurice.htm
Poverty and Famine? (The only one of the 4 horsemen not covered by the evil gods)
It is the only evil I can think of which doesn't seem to drift into the sphere of the other gods. Secrets and conspiracies seem to fall into Nuitari's orbit. Hatred into Sargonnas'. Gluttony and Hedonism into Hiddukel's. Entropy into Morgion's.
Personally I like the idea of Purity and Innocence being picked up by the daughter of Mishakal and Paladine, and the god of Poverty and Famine being picked up by the Child of Hiddukel. After all, what is the child of Greed, Trickery, and Vice but poverty and famine?
Palin/Raistlin. Raistlin changed after Legends as he realized that his trying to become a Deity wouldn't have the path that he might like. However, he still has the power, and the ability...give him the place of Takhisis. To counter that, force Palin to become as powerful as he can...and give him the place of Paladin. With that in place, they would counter each other, and even have that respect of each other...since they are family. It could create some VERY interesting dynamics as they would be opposing each other quite a bit, and yet, helping too...perhaps almost as a Caramon/Raist Dynamic from the earlier novels...except Raist probably wouldn't be as much of a weakling per se.
Paladine/Mina. Paladin could be raised back up, with Mina having been filled with the essences of Takhisis whilst doing her bidding during the WoS, perhaps there is some of that essence left to build up for Takhisis's soul. IN otherwords, Mina would make the ultimate sacrifice and become a Takhisis but with elements of Mina herself. The downside of this is there would be very little dynamic between the two...Mina simply would hate Paladine with a passion...end of relationship.
Palin/Mina. In this Palin and Mina would take the opposing places...however, it has very little of relationship and very little of interest that I can see.
Palin/Dalamar. Now this could be interesting. With the cooperation that the two have had, the betrayal, and past relationship, this could be a very interesting duo in the place of Deities. On the downside, Dalamar has always seemed like a pale shadow of Raistlin, never able to really be as powerful, or as sinister either. However, I imagine the respect, yet enemies to the core of Dalamar and Palin would create some very interesting dynamics among the peoples of Krynn.
And other assorted pirate nonsense.
Ugh. I just don't want to see anyone take Tak or Pal's place. They're gone. One of 'em is dead. Cool. I'm cool with that and I like the Neutrality-heavy balance. Let's run with that for five or six years before we make any sweeping changes to the world. DL has had so much change over the last seven or eight years; can we just settle into the current time and have interesting stories that don't change the world in epic ways? That would be really interesting!
I like the Neutrality-heavy balance. Let's run with that for five or six years before we make any sweeping changes to the world.
Yes please.
DL has had so much change over the last seven or eight years; can we just settle into the current time and have interesting stories that don't change the world in epic ways? That would be really interesting!
Dragonlance without epic changes? What is this foul villainy thou talketh about? That's like water without hydrogen. :D
Dragonlance without epic changes? What is this foul villainy thou talketh about? That's like water without hydrogen. :D
Abast, ye! Dar, your heathen words do carve themselves into my tender heart like find gold in a banker's oily palm! Argh!
And you know, you're right. But damn, for just a little while, can we not change things? Can prominent DL authors not write Kyrnn-shattering tales of epic wars and celestial schemes?
You know what I want? I want some down-to-earth personal stories. I want stories about characters; their lives, their foibles, their triumphs, and I don't want them to save the world, interrup the Pantheon's plotting, or conclude an epic conflict involving any combination of dragons, nations, or cities.
I want to read interesting, localized tales about interesting, absurd, flawed, weird, or just plain ordinary characters that are experiencing and doing and going through things that are not going to change the world, you know?
Crap! I want to read stories in DL like the ones I write (hence, it becomes clear that my thinking is flawed).
Ugh. Ok. Back to topic.
I want to read interesting, localized tales about interesting, absurd, flawed, weird, or just plain ordinary characters that are experiencing and doing and going through things that are not going to change the world, you know?
What, like everyday life? I write and game to get away from that!
I love that Dragonlance seems to revolve around conflict and epic, sweeping storylines. In many ways I would prefer fewer novels to be written if it means maintaining that general scope. Personal drama always occurs with that as a backdrop, and always with more oomph than if it's just Bob uth Bobdar and his buddies slumming it in Port-O-Call wishing they were famous, while absolutely nothing happens in the world around them.
Cheers,
Cam
Not every story needs to be Bob uth Bobdar is a farmboy who goes and disrupts the route of nuitari and creates a new continent populated by giant space hamsters and the kodragons that love them,
No, but the next Jerry Springer will be.
isnt it possible to have adventure on a smaller scale though? I know i'd love to read a story about Draconians trying to integrate into modern society, or a tale of political machinations set in tarsis or something. Not every story needs to be Bob uth Bobdar is a farmboy who goes and disrupts the route of nuitari and creates a new continent populated by giant space hamsters and the kodragons that love them, etc.
Sure, but Krynn is one of those worlds where nothing happens on a small scale that isn't somehow reflected in the heavens. Mortals are, after all, the only part of creation that truly possesses free will, so everything has to happen through them. It's that relationship between the small stuff and the big stuff that makes it all work.
Political machinations in Tarsis would be a joy to read about but you just know it will always cast a long shadow on Krynn. I think the best example of having something feel more grounded in mortal affairs is the Ergoth Trilogy, but even that is history in the making. The characters just don't realize it.
Cheers,
Cam
No, but the next Jerry Springer will be.
Or rather, the next Uncle Jerry Trapspringer Show will be.
Cheers,
Cam
steps away, waits to see round #1 million in the "Tiamat&Bahamut are NOT Takhisis/Paladine" debate again.....
I love that Dragonlance seems to revolve around conflict and epic, sweeping storylines. In many ways I would prefer fewer novels to be written if it means maintaining that general scope. Personal drama always occurs with that as a backdrop, and always with more oomph than if it's just Bob uth Bobdar and his buddies slumming it in Port-O-Call wishing they were famous, while absolutely nothing happens in the world around them.
Yeah. We've had two cataclysms, how many wars that ravaged entire continents, dragons dissapearing, coming back, dissapearing, coming back, the world stolen, the gods coming back, now they're gone again but oops - they're back, here's another war, mix in some dead folk, stir, shake, add egg whites, Dragon Overlords, no Dragon Overlords, Keys of Destiny, Spectres of Sorrows, blah, blah, blah, Knights of Solamnia defeated, regrouped, defeated, regrouped, the Knights of Takhisis are noble, wait - no they aren't, yay, etc, etc, etc, etc until you see blood coming out my nostril.
Dragonlance is epic.
You know what? [b]WE GOT THAT.[/b]
Check. Done. Critical mass. Yada, yada, yada.
Let's do something different is the point.
Sure, but Krynn is one of those worlds where nothing happens on a small scale that isn't somehow reflected in the heavens. Mortals are, after all, the only part of creation that truly possesses free will, so everything has to happen through them. It's that relationship between the small stuff and the big stuff that makes it all work.
Read it. Done that. Yay, the Gods are back. Are they scheming? Yup. Are they plotting? Yup. Do they seem as inept and fallible as ever? Yup. Ok. Let's move on.
Political machinations in Tarsis would be a joy to read about but you just know it will always cast a long shadow on Krynn.
Says who? Why does it have to cast a shadow? A great DL could be written about characters who never, ever make an impact on the world in epic ways. Their quests could be epic, the romance and danger of their adventures could be epic, but I'm so sick and tired of having things affect the whole world! We've got a great setting right now! Let's flesh it out instead of warping it every three novels! Let's not pull anymore fast ones on the fans! Let's get into some great characters - follow them around for a book or three, get into their lives and get into their adventures and really tell me some good stories that don't read like a Hollywood dramatization!
Let the vacant Gods' spots stay vacant! Leave Raistlin dead! He's overplayed enough anyway! Let's move on from Palin and Dalamar - characters who've already outlived their spotlight. Let's do something new is the point.
And then there are all the books taking place during the early Age of Mortals that have come about as a result of the same need you folks have for stories that don't catastrophically change the world, like Thieves' Guild. Middle of Nowhere. Conundrum. Dragon's Bluff. The Dragon Isles.
Are you just missing all of this? Together with those books and others like them which are being written as we speak, and the fact that more or less EVERY SINGLE DRAGONLANCE ADVENTURE EVER run by you and your friends is a smaller-scale character-driven non-cataclysmic story, I think you should have a little less room to complain.
Cheers,
Cam
Or rather, the next Uncle Jerry Trapspringer Show will be.
What happened to him? I haven't seen him around these boards in a while. That was a clever screen name.
I honestly think that the novels you people are asking for are already being written. The Linsha Trilogy, the Ergoth Trilogy, numerous short stories in collections, pretty much everything that's being written by somebody that isn't Margaret or Tracy is along these lines... (snipped)
Not missed. Fully aware of it, actually. But I want more.
Give me something new. Give me new characters, new ideas, new plots, etc. That's all. Don't misinterpret it as complaining; I'd call it constructive criticism of the novel line.
But when I say it, I also extend that to the big authors pumping out harcovers. No more changes for a while, please. No more new gods or old gods. Let's not go over the same tired rehash over and over. In fact, the very core of my argument is that I'm tired of seeing the big sells pull off these epic, world-altering stories. Why don't we see something more localized and personal from them?
Dragonlance without epic changes? What is this foul villainy thou talketh about? That's like water without hydrogen. :D
Are you saying it would be a breath of fresh air? After all, without hydrogen, water is just oxygen. ;)
Not every story needs to be Bob uth Bobdar is a farmboy who goes and disrupts the route of nuitari and creates a new continent populated by giant space hamsters and the kodragons that love them, etc.
*crumples paper*
So much for my submission to WotC's open novels call! ;)
What if.....Bahamut and Tiamat come to take their places.....hehehehehehe
Possible spoilers below for Amber and Ashes...
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Give me something new. Give me new characters, new ideas, new plots, etc.
Howzabout Rhys Mason and Nightshade Pricklypear, the Beloved of Chemosh, and the Tower of the Blood Sea to get you started?
I need a sip of dihydrogen monoxide...
Possible spoilers below for Amber and Ashes...
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Howzabout Rhys Mason and Nightshade Pricklypear, the Beloved of Chemosh, and the Tower of the Blood Sea to get you started?
You know, I think Margaret is a great writer. I really do. And I love Mina. But the real reason I finished that book? Rhys and Nightshade. They had me hooked; they were so original, so new and intuitive to the setting. It was great.
Now, I'm just hoping that the trilogy doesn't stir up the epic tide in the later books...
Not missed. Fully aware of it, actually. But I want more.
Rabble rouser!
Cheers,
Cam
Rabble rouser!
Cheers,
Cam
Scallywag!
Oh, wait, I'm no good at this... :embarrass
Are you saying it would be a breath of fresh air? After all, without hydrogen, water is just oxygen. ;)
I'm impressed. Someone actually got the gist of what I said there in between the lines. Yarr! :D
Pharmacist!
Oh, wait, I'm no good at this... :embarrass
Low, DH, quite low...
ummm...Dirty Scoundrel!
I'm impressed. Someone actually got the gist of what I said there in between the lines. Yarr! :D
I remember a smidge of chemistry from high school. ;)
What I find funny is when April Fool's Day comes around, and the DJ's talk about how there's dihydrogen monoxide in our water system. Well, of course there is. It's water.
Or better yet, when they say that if you breathe dihydrogen monoxide you will die. Well, of course. You would drown.
A local morning show tried the first one once a few months after Sept. 11. Even though they didn't lie or anything, the vast populace weren't aware of what they were talking about, so they got in a bit of trouble for doing it.
Anyway, we should really get back to topic...
I remember a smidge of chemistry from high school. ;)
What I find funny is when April Fool's Day comes around, and the DJ's talk about how there's dihydrogen monoxide in our water system. Well, of course there is. It's water.
Naw, saying the water supply has been contaminated with heavy amounts of Hydroxyl acid is much better. That way even the people that think they know anything about Chemistry have no idea what you are talking about. :D
So anyway, DL is fine right now, while the Beloved of Chemosh are kinda ground-breaking/world-shattering, not much is going on. In a year or two, the overlords will all be gone, the dragonlords will probably bite it as well (they have killed enough of each other off anyway). For heaven's sake, NO MORE GODS LEAVING! It has been done twice now, it had better never happen again. Ever. Sure we can have divine conflicts and such, but no more dying gods either. Please.
First, Raistlin has been both good (if slightly questionable) and evil (I think everyone can see that one). Plus, once being mortal he would have some great love (hopefully) for Krynn, creating some very intresting plot twists.
*sigh...* I'm sorry y'alls I just want another book with Raist.... *sigh...* *sigh* or older characters.... in fact, a party of heros that lasted longer then 3 books would be just peachy *sigh*
See the new Linsha trilogy is a good example of a bad and good epic story for the setting at the same time. It is bad because she got rid of a perfectly interesting setting for adventure (The Missing City, Iyesta's realm etc). Good because it creating a new setting that is interesting for adventure (the new brute homeland). Imagine how much more interesting it had been however if it had involved Ogrebond, Estwilde, New Coast, Blodeheim, the Isle of Crystine or Karthay, or some other undeveloped yet populated area of the world? Then we'd have the Ghostly missing city, the benevolent draconic ruler, and surrounded by desert nomads, exiled elves, vicious minotaurs, and Sable's swamps. Not to mention being a hop skip and a jump from both Ogre Kingdoms, Sanction and Icewall. See, before the Missing City was a perfect place for adventurers to put down roots and visit all those places. Now it is much like the Ogre Kingdoms themselves. A nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
So I don't think we mind stories of war (the Illiad), slaying of great monsters (St. George, Beowulf), intense personal conflict, feud and renge (Njal's Saga), or even exploration and discovery (The Odyssey). It doesn't have to be about normal people, or where nothing changes at the end of the story. It simply doesn't have to involve changing the physics of the world (by removing and adding magic all the time) or devestation and fallout from the equivalent of a nuclear disaster.
I think the obsession for making the "biggest" Dragonlance story often means that they don't make very well-written ones, and ruins their epic quality.
Certainly there is no factors causing a rush to have new dieties, except for one. If we are adding new dieties to the setting, I would rather have them in the new Holy Orders of the Stars book coming out in the next year or two.
I wouldn't mind if the birth of the two gods wasn't an epic story. Simply explaining their origin in the new gaming book (ala Iyatchu Xvim and other new FR dieties) would be good enough for me. I just would like to have their domains easily referenced.
*sigh...* I'm sorry y'alls I just want another book with Raist.... *sigh...* *sigh* or older characters.... in fact, a party of heros that lasted longer then 3 books would be just peachy *sigh*
Keep reading, you'll get sick of the HotL soon enough. ;)
Me, I'll take new characters, since I've already read through the horror that was the late 80's, early 90's DL novel line.
If anything, Gilean has his work cut out for him since he's the only Head of the Greater Pantheon left. Neutrality does necessarly have more influence and control than the other to pentheons.
(Man, I've spent so much time at the other DL forums that I forgot about this one here. Its been awhile since I've been to this board.)