Now I never really liked the concept of the Dark Knights. The very aspect of evil is "EVIL TURNS ON ITSELF", this cannot be circumvented by a brutal organization of Lawful Evil Tyrany. Lawful Evil is still EVIL, structured evil but still evil, and Evil turns on itself. The Dark Knights should not have been able to hold onto Palanthas after the War of Souls, their organization beaten on many fronts, losing their Goddess, and losing much of their numbers fighting aginst the Dragon Overlords.
Anyway I've reorganized the political map to return areas which the Solmanic's should control. No longer should Palanthas and the traditional cities of GOOD be ruled by the dark knights. So while the dark knights still hold the East, the Solminics now control many of their formar holdings.
The Knights of Takhisis were a STUPID idea. Seeing them described as honorable and such was pure crap to me. I am sure that HItler's SS troops were loyal and stuff, and that made them more evil then anything we had seen. I don't see the Knights of Takhisis as being any different.
You really think they could not hold on to Palanthas and much of Solamnia..Think again. Solamnia and solamnic knights are more or less a dead country. thay have been since chaos war..much was destroyd and not much has been rebuild. Think about it. since dark knights recruter all sort of scum in to there ranks since the chaos war, the pure knigts of solamnia did not. On the other hand, knights of neraka have joined with the dragon overlords and provided services, while geting richer, and expanding theere forces. And what did solamnia do? well it suffered from the dragon purge, then it was conquered by Skie the blue, and the dark knights, who at this time nolonger have a Fanatic devotion to Takhissis, but work for them self, and the glory of the order. (think of the samurai legions in feudal japan, they wore organized and devoted completly to there shogun, and they fought and killed without question for 1000 years, call them evil but they managed, and so did Knights of Neraka), now after the war of Souls...mina leads the knights in to battle and many die...sure, but hey..then knights of Solamnia have been exiled from Solanthis!becouse they wore cowards and didnt do much to help solamnia when mina invaded..jes, solamnia is really broken, from 4 MAJORE catastophies in last 4o years!! jesus..the needed atleast 50 years to recover from the chaos war, financialy and military...this is after all the midlle ages. But they didnt. Am not a fan boy of Knights of neraka...but i think they deserve a bit more spot light as evil organized sophisticated villians then you give them...
just a tough...a bit long but hey.
Sorry for spelling..its kinda bad.
Now I never really liked the concept of the Dark Knights. The very aspect of evil is "EVIL TURNS ON ITSELF", this cannot be circumvented by a brutal organization of Lawful Evil Tyrany. Lawful Evil is still EVIL, structured evil but still evil, and Evil turns on itself.
What I like about the Dark Knights, at least the way they were originally presented, is that they were the answer to the question, "What if evil didn't turn upon itself?". Ariakan was smart enough to see what went wrong in the past, and used the lessons of the Knights of Solamnia against them.
As it turns out, evil did turn upon itself when Takhisis herself followed her own law, and turned against the KoT. Imagine what Ariakan could have done had his forces had been able to utilize sorcery and mysticism.
DmJoeSolarte, the SS correlation is a good one, and one I use myself. When I think of the KoT/KoN, I think about how they probably use propaganda, much like Nazi Germany did.
I love the Knights of Neraka, but I think my devotion is to them in their prime, during the Chaos War. After that, they just degenerated into the latest group of thugs and bullies.
What I like about the Dark Knights, at least the way they were originally presented, is that they were the answer to the question, "What if evil didn't turn upon itself?". Ariakan was smart enough to see what went wrong in the past, and used the lessons of the Knights of Solamnia against them.
As it turns out, evil did turn upon itself when Takhisis herself followed her own law, and turned against the KoT. Imagine what Ariakan could have done had his forces had been able to utilize sorcery and mysticism.
DmJoeSolarte, the SS correlation is a good one, and one I use myself. When I think of the KoT/KoN, I think about how they probably use propaganda, much like Nazi Germany did.
I love the Knights of Neraka, but I think my devotion is to them in their prime, during the Chaos War. After that, they just degenerated into the latest group of thugs and bullies.
Even at their best, the WoS I think that the only thing keeping nearly all the Darknights from turning on one another was the the vision Takhisis provided. It was a leash that was needed, a form of geas spell maybe. Ariakan and a few others may have been honourable but even at their prime the organisation was doomed. Not just because Takhisis would undoubtedly betray them when she saw fit but because of their flawed evil membership.
Even at their best, the WoS I think that the only thing keeping nearly all the Darknights from turning on one another was the the vision Takhisis provided. It was a leash that was needed, a form of geas spell maybe. Ariakan and a few others may have been honourable but even at their prime the organisation was doomed. Not just because Takhisis would undoubtedly betray them when she saw fit but because of their flawed evil membership.
DUring World War 2, Heinrich Himler and the rest of the SS were very, very devoted to their Fuhrer and State and they operated on the belief that what they were doing was Good. I am sure in their own world they were somehow "honorable" amongst German Troops. By their standards honorable and noble, but pure evil in our real life.
Which is why I was so aghast at the mention of the Knights Takhisis and the way STeel Brightblade was. It was so freaking stupid it was an abomination and by the time I got done with SUMMERS FLAME.....
Put it this way, the more I read in the DLCS about what happened after SUMMER FLAME< it seems like it gets worser and worser for the "post-SUMMER FLAME" chronology.
Which is why I was so aghast at the mention of the Knights Takhisis and the way STeel Brightblade was. It was so freaking stupid it was an abomination and by the time I got done with SUMMERS FLAME.....
So, you can't stand it because it's exactly modeled after fascist thought, or you can't stand it because it presents itself as objectively honorable even though the knights are evil?
I think the knights of Takhisis/Neraka have been handled very well indeed, even their current highly-factioned state. They're the perfect foil for heroes in any era. I make use of them a lot.
Cheers,
Cam
Truthfully, because of the loss of purpose, there should be a change in the organization, a civil war of types in which they'd lose ground, but the end result would be to give them a new purpose and from the chaos...forge a stronger blade...so to say. So yes, then they'd probably be pushed back as they have their civil war, but in the end, emerge from it stronger then ever.
As for the KoN I think they're a great foil, be it the (very few) truely Lawful Evil 'honorable' evil trying desperatly to hold their organization to some standard most of whom eventually betray their evil ideals in the end... think about it, Steel, Marshal Medan, Huzzad (Kang's Regiment), Valian (Rose and the Skull). All 'evil' knights that in the end choose honor above evil and paid for it with their lives, well accept Valian... he survived... I wonder what happened to that Dark Elf rogue Knight of the Lily, exile twice over... I should use him as an NPC sometime. On the flip side you have the degeneracy of the Knighthood into little more than a band of thugs.
Targonne for his faults and love of coin, held the kighthood together rather well, then you had Mina who really made them a solid force for the first time in 40 years. In the aftermath I really see the Kngihthood fractionalizing splintering into independant groups... possibly different ideologies... but I hope they don't fade.
Above all else I like the idea of the Knights of the Thorn as a force against the Wizards of High Sorcery... and I'd be sad to see that go.
Also the KoS did indeed change the way they inducted people into their knighthood. They began accepting women and people from neighboring lands, such as Tanin and Sturm Majere and later Linsha Majere. They were able to increase their numbers during the end of the Age of Despair and beginning of the Age of Mortals, but nowhere near the numbers of the KoT/KoN. That is the other reason why they weren't able to dislodge them KoN from Palanthas. Also remember that the KoS poured almost all their resources into breaking the seige of Sanction, and failed. So now they need to rebuild, yet once again, before any sort of assualt on Palanthas takes place.
Hopefully we'll see things turn around, now that most of the dragon overlords are dead and the gods have returned. I would think that the KoS should be able to dislodge teh KoN from Palanthas, but I don't think that the Palanthians are going to want any knighthoods running their cities or lands anytime soon. So it may be a bittersweet victory for the KoS, but we may yet see it under the protection of the KoS.
Also, I think if you look at the cosmology and mythology of Krynn, you can see that Law is nearly as important as Good in opposing evil. The leader of the Good Pantheon was Lawful Good, the original cosmic war was between Order (represented by the High God), and Chaos (represented by Ionthas).
I believe they suceeded because Ariakan did a decent job of eliminating those particular traits that cause evil to turn in upon itself.
It wasn't that Ariakan eliminated these traits it was that every knight had to take the test. In which they were tested by Takhisis and she was the one who killed those who did not pass her test (sorta like the test of magic, funny that way ain't it). After she left a few knights were admitted before mysticism was discovered and after that the knights were tested by Targonne, who essentially killed a potential knight if the knight portrayed traits that posed a threat to to Targonne. Which is why Targonne was able to hold onto the knighthood for so long. Now that the gods are are back I could see the gods of evil jockeying for the knights devotion if they could somehow get them away from mysticism. As they have demonstrated in the past the knights are very adaptable, at least in comparison to the Solamnic Knights.
What woudl the knights of Neraka be like if they did devote themselves to one of the current Knights of Evil.
Sargonnas - Honor, Evil, Strength, Vengeance - I could see a knighthood for sargonnas.
Chemosh - Death, - Nah.
Hiddukel - Lies, Deceit, Selfishness - Sorta like the knights are now.
Zeboim - Water, - Knights in armor and water, drop like a rock.
Morgion - Disease - Nah.
Nuitari - Magic - Nuitari has already demonstrated that he is willing to deceive his fellows about magic stuff, why not a whole knighthood.
The Solamnics face a similar relegation if they don't get their act together. Redoing the Measure, while a very good thing, is just one step in a long process to return them to glory and power. Unfortunately, they just really didn't do much during the beginning of the Age of Mortals, besides hole up in their territories and lick their wounds. Towards the end they tried to help out, especially at Sanction. Then they suffered a series of crippling defeats during the WoS, so now they're in a hurt locker at the moment as far as manpower and prestige goes. So rebuilding their knighthood won't be very easy. They need to get a few victories under their belts in this new age before the people will throng to them once again.
For their ethos, I would prefer to have them still follow their dead queen. Just because a diety is dead, doesn't mean that they can't still be worthy of veneration (In Takhisis' case it actually helps). Especially since she has left them with comparable sources of power to match the clerics of the unworthy living gods, namely Mysticism and Sorcery.
I'm all for the two Knighthoods to splinter to create more, especially on ideological lines. I've already done the same for Solamnics, dividing them based on class, nationality, and ethos. So I have a half-dozen minor knighthoods running around.
Can the same thing be done for the Knights of Nereka? Sure. Heck, just get a few of the more ambitious chromatics to ressurect the old WotL dragonarmy symbols and regalia. Primary colors and scale mail are back in fashion again baby!