I don't know how close the epic rules are to completion, and am not trying to rush anyone, but would it be possible to get some tidbits of information of things that have been finalized with regards to the advanced being metamorphisis process?
For example, how many levels are the processes to span, are there any specific abilities decided upon, etc.
Additionally, what kinds of issues are controversial, as an example, many of the threads in the past have debated what kinds of bonuses an advanced being might recieve towards epic spellcasting. What kinds of ideas is the epic bureau wrestling with, and could the community be of any assistance in helping settle on something that the most people can be comfortable with in their campaigns?
Part of this is just plain curiousity, as it's an issue that many people have been interested in since the introduction of 3e. Another part however is more pressing personally, as I am to a stage in my campaign where players are becoming more epic, and as a DM, I would like to have a general idea in mind what I should be preparing for, both as options for their development, and in determining what types of abilities possible adversaries might possess. It's important to me that my campaign follows the "official rules" as closely as possible, in order to make supplements like DA and SotDL as easily adaptable to my games as possible, so I don't want to introduce things to my campaign that won't mesh.
I have a couple of questions based on your post if you can address them without giving away too much information. First, could you elaborate a little bit on what psionic enchantments will be and how they will differ from epic spellcasting? Second, is "dragon magic" going to be as described in Xlorep's writeup and is there not going to be a corresponding "avangion magic" to go along with the avangion process? And finally, are the respective prestige classes going to be limited to 10 levels, with the transformation being "complete" at the end?
There is some old 2e material out there that have undead being with specific psionic enchantments (10th level spells) on their list of memorised spells, indicating they have access to psionic enchantments.
Jon, some good what you have briefly outlined. Quick question; any thoughts on Epic or Advanced undead?
There is some old 2e material out there that have undead being with specific psionic enchantments (10th level spells) on their list of memorised spells, indicating they have access to psionic enchantments.
Where did you see that? :curious:
Jon, some good what you have briefly outlined. Quick question; any thoughts on Epic or Advanced undead?
There is some old 2e material out there that have undead being with specific psionic enchantments (10th level spells) on their list of memorised spells, indicating they have access to psionic enchantments.
Isn't that the T'liz?
Isn't that the T'liz?
My first guess too, I checked the Terrors beyond Tyr, Kaisharga and T'liz NPCs have a maximum Spelllevel of 9, wish etc......
The only undead I know of who would be able to cast 10th Level spells is Dregoth ;).
Where did you see that? :curious:
There is some old 2e material out there that have undead being with specific psionic enchantments (10th level spells) on their list of memorised spells, indicating they have access to psionic enchantments.
The reference is in Secrets of the Deadlands. I'm not entirely sure on how we will be handling this, but my guess at the moment would be that they will simply be epic spellcasters without access to psionic enchantments.
Just a suggestion, keeps to what's in 2e, without breaking any system that restricts psionic enchantments.
The reference is in Secrets of the Deadlands. I'm not entirely sure on how we will be handling this, but my guess at the moment would be that they will simply be epic spellcasters without access to psionic enchantments.
First, could you elaborate a little bit on what psionic enchantments will be and how they will differ from epic spellcasting?
No, I can't, since we're still debating that.
Second, is "dragon magic" going to be as described in Xlorep's writeup and is there not going to be a corresponding "avangion magic" to go along with the avangion process?
Dragon magic will probably be different from Xlor's writeup, as for Avangion magic you'll have to wait and see.
And finally, are the respective prestige classes going to be limited to 10 levels, with the transformation being "complete" at the end?
No, the *physical* transformation is completed after casting the final metamorphosis spell in the series of epic level metamorphosis spells, while the spellcasting and psionic progression can go on indefinitely so there is no cap on the prestige class. As *I* picture it, the class is independent of the spells, save having cast the first metamorphosis spell is a prerequisite for entering the class.
. how will the 3rd Ed of DS handle the 10th+ (what is the maximum?) Level spells, will they be more powerful then PsionEnchant, or weaker?
how will the 3rd Ed of DS handle the 10th+ (what is the maximum?) Level spells, will they be more powerful then PsionEnchant, or weaker?
I don't understand what you mean. 9th level spells is the maximum spell level for non-epic characters. An epic character can get spell slots above 9th level, but there are no spells for said levels. Epic spells follow their own progression, but I suppose you could call them 10th level spells as that's what they are treated like for some purposes, but that is somewhat inaccurate. Many of the old Psionic Enchantments would become epic spells or powers, or even lower level spells in some cases. How we're going to handle Psionic Enchantments in 3.5 is actually the current discussion in the Epic Bureau.
Oh yeah, I looked through SotDL and there are really a lot of Undead with 10th Level spells. But that was a designer error, like the Bard with spells
Just because it contradicts previous material does not automatically make it a design error.
Just because it contradicts previous material does not automatically make it a design error.
Just because it contradicts previous material does not automatically make it a design error.
This statement is also true for the Bard in the Dune Traders. So if it isn't an error we have officially spellcasting Bards on Athas ;).
Dragon Kings came first and set the rules for those spells. SotDL was never published, it needed still a lot of work, so it is very likely an design error or nonsense, you can say what you want but it is not cannon. :D
Exactly. It's an intriguing problem to be solved. Jon, another suggestion for the epic team: allow these undead to cast 10th level psionic enchantments, but only ones with Necromantic applications.
Honestly, this would ruin the whole idea behind the AB transformation, if it would be so easy to have those spells, Rajaat wouldn't bother creating Champions, he could have Armies of Kaishargas fighting for him.
Give them the standard Epic spells and call it minior Dragon Magic. Psi Enchants should be AB exclusive IMO.
Look, even if they are not AB's in the 'traditional' sense, they are as different from other undead as the SM's are from other dragons (and avignons in the singular case) are from 'normal' AB's. As such, they should be given, INMHO, a stuible template allowing them limted access to psionic enchantments.
Honestly, this would ruin the whole idea behind the AB transformation, if it would be so easy to have those spells, Rajaat wouldn't bother creating Champions, he could have Armies of Kaishargas fighting for him.
Give them the standard Epic spells and call it minior Dragon Magic. Psi Enchants should be AB exclusive IMO.
Take D'thul Zhen; male necromancer/psionicist (22nd/13th) for example, he is a Powerful Necro and an tough Psi, which could come as a bonus undead power anyway, but before someone can cast 10th Level Spells in the 2nd Ed he had to be at least 20 Wizard AND 20 Psi. This one is 7 Levels short of that.
Harkor Raaig male necromancer (24th) is even worse, he was a cleric, so what, he isn't even an Psionicist, but he is able to cast 2 10th Level spells, why?
It had to be a Designer Error, they looked in the High Level Book to see how many Spells the Undead High Level Wizards get and forgot completly that they are on athas, this may be only my opinion but there is no way a 24th Level wizard should get access to powers which require almost 16 Levels more. Giving them those Psi Enchant is like turning Athas into the Forgotten Realms ;).
Sorry I cannot go into any details on this, but this is something still in the works and under discussion.
It's matter of taste. I agree with you, they should be different but on athas each undead is unique.
Take D'thul Zhen; male necromancer/psionicist (22nd/13th) for example, he is a Powerful Necro and an tough Psi, which could come as a bonus undead power anyway, but before someone can cast 10th Level Spells in the 2nd Ed he had to be at least 20 Wizard AND 20 Psi. This one is 7 Levels short of that.
Harkor Raaig male necromancer (24th) is even worse, he was a cleric, so what, he isn't even an Psionicist, but he is able to cast 2 10th Level spells, why?
It had to be a Designer Error, they looked in the High Level Book to see how many Spells the Undead High Level Wizards get and forgot completly that they are on athas, this may be only my opinion but there is no way a 24th Level wizard should get access to powers which require almost 16 Levels more. Giving them those Psi Enchant is like turning Athas into the Forgotten Realms ;).
I think some of the undead, even if it is not stated they are advanced being should be considered as thus for the following reasons:
1. Psionic enchantments are the realm, as you said, exclusivley or advanced being, and they have some of those psioinc enchantments as listed and memorised spells.
2. At least one of them as attracted the attention of a freed elemental vortex for reasons unknown. In the original 2e material is said something along the lines of they were attracted by the powerful magic that transformed the SM's into champions... something similar probably attacted that vortrex
3. They are the only wizards on athas beyond the AB's in 2e who had levels beyond 20th - i.e on the same power-scale (magically) as advanced beings
The only thing i see against them is lack of psionic powers in some cases, however, there are more things pointing to them being advanced beings on some hirthero unknown form than against, INMHO.
BTW, after hearing your description of psionic enchantments vs epic magic, i'm keen to see the product when it's finalised!
The undeads are not advanced beings unless specifically stated in the individual undead description.
.Jaanos, undead can advance after their transformation, read the T'Liz entry in Terrors Beyond Tyr. It's nothing special on Athas, one more reason to love it ;).
Seker, Jon, thanks that was exactly what i wanted to hear, epic spells and Psi for "normal" epic chars, Psi Enchant only for ABs
Jaanos, undead can advance after their transformation, read the T'Liz entry in Terrors Beyond Tyr. It's nothing special on Athas, one more reason to love it ;).
2e or 3e?
Terrors Beyond Tyr (MC II 2433) is a 2nd Ed Product, like SotDL ;), so it is a better choice when we compare 2nd Ed undead.
Thanks mate for bringing that to my attention
Terrors Beyond Tyr (MC II 2433) is a 2nd Ed Product, like SotDL ;), so it is a better choice when we compare 2nd Ed undead.
Cool, i'll have to get my hands on it, probablty from SV games and compare to other 2e DS releases... then, if they clash on that ruling, decide which 'cannon' i'll use for my personal games.
Thanks mate for bringing that to my attention
Blast it away with your cannon ;), BTW I don't mind them haveing Psi Enchant in Campaigns, this is something each DM has to decide for himself, I also don't stick always to the canon, on the contrary........ :D
Unique DS Worlds are the best there can be IMHO. You can find the best ideas there.