Nice start to a topic, huh? :D
However, I'm happy for them to have their Greyhawk and me keep mine. It's when the two begin to blur into one that I begin having a problem. If LG Greyhawk ever becomes canon, I'll officially become a grognard and renounce ALL LG canon as being heretical, blasphemous and against the spirit of Gygax and Sargent. Of course, that will require decorating my soapbox with holy symbols of Sargent, which are gaudy, and out of fashion, but it's a small price to pay for Greyhawk's purity!
Let me list a few reasons why I think LG GH & GH should remain as sepereate entities.
1) Living Greyhawk has too many cooks and too many kitchens: with no coherency between the regions, things become more and more and more isolated which creates a certain 'inbreeding' response.
Simply put, real nations are not encapsulated within their own dimensional planes. They interact with each other on a very fundamental and intrinsic basis. A border is usually little more than an agreed line on a map and people, naturally, mix and associate with each other regardless of borders, unless those borders are heavily enforced, and even then, illicit trade, news, culture, all mixes and interacts.
The further down the road that LG goes, the less and less of this integral part of world development occurs, or is taken into consideration. Even if a little bit here and there is considered, because it's not considered as a whole, but rather simply individual parts, it will never have the cohesiveness that has given Greyhawk it's inherent dynamism.
2) Rules are more important than setting considerations: technically, paladins of Wee Jas, riding monstrous spiders as their summoned mount, are allowable by the rules. However, that is SO far from the 'spirit' of what a paladin is about, not to mention the spirit of the goddess of death and magic, that any self-respecting GH DM would most likely not allow it. But the triads did.
This is necessary for such an interactive game to remain functional, however it is not in the best interests, or the spirit of the setting. Therefore, the setting continually suffers from a lack of self-editing that an author would do for the sake of the story. Over the last few years that it's been running, I dread to think of what other, probably worse, aberrations have cropped up in LG as entirely legitimate, but otherwise ridiculous, character and plot developments.
3) The triads don't know, nor care, about the setting as a whole: in my experience, very few of the triads know anything about Greyhawk beyond the LGG, and even then, misquote half of that in favour of the PHB, or other miscellaneous sources which have bent Greyhawk out of shape (such as St. Cuthbert being the god of retribution). Not only this, but they don't care.
In fact, this very thing was stated to me matter-of-factly by a triad member in my region, years ago. He unashamedly said that he doesn't care about the setting, as long as the game runs smoothly, he's done his job. And he's right, he isn't the guardian of Greyhawk, he isn't it's hero or its sponsor, he's there to make sure the region runs smoothly and within the guidelines and rules set out before him. He doesn't *have* to care to be a triad member. In fact, I would wager it's a negative if he does, as it will inevitably cause arguments as the Rules vs. Greyhawk debate comes up, and we all know that Greyhawk can't win that one.
There are numerous other reasons, however I think I'd probably be crossing the line into flaming by going into them. Suffice it to say, I have no problem with LG using Greyhawk as a proper noun generator, but woe betide WotC should LG ever become canon Greyhawk...
You make some very good points.
Particularly, I had never considered your theory of "national" or "triad" "drift" over time and in isolation.
I think your reasoning is sound.
I do, however, disagree with your conclusions for two reasons.
First, I think LG performs a valuable service in that it is a Greyhawk enema for certain constipated "notables" whose idea of GH design its reciting "canon" rather than making "canon," and who think that describing a heretofore unknown butcher shop in Radigast City or revealing that King Belvor's third cousin is named Zeke, and is a were-flumph, is design worthy of other than a yawn. You know, canon wonks who have forgotten or never have realized that "canon" is an evolving concept, not a static one to be tediously documented ad nauseum or so delicately added to as to be almost unnoticeable.
Second, I think there are points of no return and I think LG is well beyond the point of no return, love it or hate it. I believe to one degree or another LG will, indeed must, be considered when next GH incarnation receives more than magazine treatment. It is simply too big to ignore; too many people play to say it never happened. For most LG players, I will venture that LG is Greyhawk for them. Of all GH players of any stripe, I bet LG players are the largest single definable group. You cannot throw away that big an audience and would be silly to do so, IMO. Its all about numbers of potential sales.
Saying this, I am not saying I approve of all the LG storylines I have heard tell about. Far from it. I am saying that an accomodation will probably have to be reached with "LG canon" when GH "canon" is next revised forward in time. Like any compromise, no one will get everything they want. The key will be accomodating "LG canon" with published GH "canon" in a way that keeps most of the GH audience intact.
The GH Wars are an example of heedlessly blundering ahead with an idea with no thought to keeping the existing GH audience intact while recruiting new GH fans. I am not knocking GH Wars from a content standpoint here but from an implimentation standpoint. It could have been handled better, IMO, to try to preserve and expand the fanbase.
Integrating something of LG into published "canon" will pose a similar challenge. I would rather not see a repeat of writing off or ignoring any segment of GH fandom. And anyone who thinks it impossible to achieve any type of reconcilation of the two "canons," well, you never will achieve it if you have already decided it is impossible.
I don't know who will get the next shot at publishing Greyhawk as other than the odd magazine articles. Whoever they are, I hope they do not simply adopt the LG wholesale. I also hope they are not canon wonks who can't see beyond the ends of their studious noses and determine to ignore the LG.
I see a potential rift forming much like the old - Gygaxians vs Sargents-at-Arms. It could be the "old maid" canon wonks vs the "high living" gonzo Living Greyhawkers. That would be a crying shame. But oh so Greyhawk.
GVD
Personally my campaign is 'low magic' whereas each LGG region now tends to have at least one, if not more, wizard schools to train local wizard characters. It's a necesary evil for LGG but not something I want in my campaign.
I'm lucky in that my campaign is still in 587 CY, so I can plan for upheavals and work them into my campaign, changing them as needed. Biggest problem is that Thrommel was rescued in my campaign, an event that has huge repercussions. Of course he will disappear again during the Gr8 Northern Crusade but even so... it can take some doing to drag campaigns back into line.
As anyone who brings up the subject within my hearing distance will know, I despise LG.
Nice start to a topic, huh? :D
However, I'm happy for them to have their Greyhawk and me keep mine. It's when the two begin to blur into one that I begin having a problem. If LG Greyhawk ever becomes canon, I'll officially become a grognard and renounce ALL LG canon as being heretical, blasphemous and against the spirit of Gygax and Sargent. Of course, that will require decorating my soapbox with holy symbols of Sargent, which are gaudy, and out of fashion, but it's a small price to pay for Greyhawk's purity!...
Point 1: many regions do interact, European regions of Onnwal, Sunndi & Naerie being one example. We don't worry much what the people in the States (especially since only one US region touches the border of our meta-region) do but in from what i've seen so far, in Europe we take our Greyhawk very seriously.
Point 2: Which region? Most unfortunate indeed if the Triad allowed it, since it sounds silly. I have not heard of such event anywhere in our meta-region however so it probably happened somewhere in US.
Point 3: We do care and we know Greyhawk. Perhaps not every nook and cranny but we or at least I go to great lengths to make sure it does not mess existing history.
But as you said, you hate LG (that's your right) and nothing will ever change that, so what' the problem? No matter what happens, you will still have your own campaign and if LG ever comes official history of Oerth, you can just chuck it overboard like I did for some of the plans our original triad had come up with.
Why would WOTC be in trouble if LG becomes canon? Are you going to somehow crush the entire corporate entity if they actually bring something official for Greyhawk? From what i've seen the official support for Greyhawk has so far been pretty much zero, expect for Dragon/Dungeon articles and I don't see why this would change.
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
It took a setting and launched a campaign, albeit a very large campaign with multiple DMs, much in the same way we have all done. In your campaign you may have played Against the Giants straight out of the book, in mine I took the basic premise and altered how the entire thing went down. So now my world and the "normal per the adventure modules" worlds have diverged. This doesn't mean I can't use any of the LG stuff in my campaign or vice versa. It just means the DM will have to do, as he has for decades, look over the information and alter it as needed to suit his setting.
Now I understand that your entire point was not that LG was affecting how new Greyhawk players view the setting. You are specifically concerned with the events of the LG campaign being implemented as part of the "new norm" if a new rulebook were to be printed. There is nothing wrong with the publishers using some of the events from LG to further the history of the setting as it freshens things up from 1983.
Take for example Forgotten Realms. Ed Greenwood and his group played through most of what is considered "backstory" to the Forgotten Realms that has gone on to be the most popular setting in D&D history. Myth Drannor had already been explored, Hellgate keep had already fallen and been re-secured, etc. His players had taken many actions that resonated throughtout the setting as it was presented to us. The LG grops are doing something similar on a larger scale. I have no doubt if Greyhawk were to be re-released that most of the LG stuff would be reviewed but only the cream of the crop would be included as new official content. To not include some of it would be a collosal waste of creativity than has been generated. Sure, as a whole the LG campaign is over the top in many areas but there are some nuggets of good gaming in there. There is no reason to have a zero-tolerance policy with it when we are mature enough to evaluate the material ourselves.
So I can certainly understand the worry that many people have but I think it is a little irrational. If Greyhawk was ever to be re-released it would likely be from a 3rd party with purchased content rights, very similar to the way Dragonlance was handled by Sovereign Press. WoTC has learned that it is much less expensive and risky to license and collect fees rather than to develop and publish in house.
In the Dragon Lance line of material they released different sourcebooks for different eras of play. Some of the fanbase only like the original War of the Lance stuff, others enjoyed the middle content and there were other who enjoyed the older content but wanted to take a new look at an old world with the age of mortals setting.
I saw that Dave Arneson recently revamped a Blackmoor campaign setting. I'd love to see him license a Greyhawk product and get some of the older creators together on the project to put thier stamp back on a world that has been without their guidance for 20 years. The dream team is wishful thinking but having someone like Arneson oversee a product is within the realm of the possible in my mind.
I see a Greyhawk and a Living Greyhawk Campaign, and while one is needed for the other to be, Greyhawk by no means needs (or should take a knee to) Living Greyhawk.
I don't see LG as an atrocity, but I do see it as a 'Too Many Cooks' situation where we're going to get at least much bad as we do good. This is a pitty, as it would really suck of some of their more left field ideas and actions became known as 'Greyhawk Canon.'
I consider myself a Greyhawk Historian. I own every product and novel ever producted for Greyhawk (Sea of Death is a VASTLY under-rated Greyhawk book!) and after a time you get to know what "feels right" and what doesn't for your favorite world. Some stuff in LG does feel right, and I applaud the more dilligent and imaginitive writers involved. Some feels like "Forgotten Realms" garbage (one in the same thing, in my opinion).
The fall of Nyrond has that feel to it: Out of nowhere person X shows up with an unbeatable magically uber-stacked army (demons and devils are the best cop-out additive here) and takes over.
There's 'Greyhawk' sense of grittiness and striving to this, which sucks. I've always fealt that one thing the villians of Greyhawk had to do is strive along with the PC's. Even Iuz, who had his way during the Greyhawk Wars, couldn't have done it without meddling fools uniting the barbarian tribes with the Blades of the Corusk. What is more, while said bad guys may be strong, they have their problems, an achilles heel that can be exploited. Lastly, there's a goodly amount of build-up for big events, so that there's a sense of 'History in the Making' when everything comes down.
I'm not sensing much of that in LG, and its a bloody shame.
Anyway, as an extreme veteren of Greyhawk, that's my $.02 worth on the subject.
I always wondered what exactly your avatar was doing MB.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
I would just like to see one area or region trying something different and yes interacting with each other more. Further more since this is fan created material by members of a triad it flies in the face of what is a traditional GH setting. Now as far as I'm concerned I like throwing Wrenches as anyone who reads my articles on Canonfire will tell you. However I don't think it should be solidified as canon, except in my campaign.
Fan created material is or has been as great as stuff published before it, but with that said it also is some of the worst stuff out their. That's not to say that published material has agreed with me in the past or present. But If I had to take the whole of what was created in LG and establish it as canon it would fit together like square pegs in a round hole.
Lg in my opinion has been good for the Greyhawk community, but I don't think it should be solidfied as canon absolute. Instead i would like to have what was created from LG picked and combed through and take what fits best and maintain that as a form of canon.
Let's face it sometimes the stuff I read on fanbased sites is better than the stuff I paid 20 something or more for. But if GH as I knew it from 1st edition to 2nd edition is to be rejuvenated then it cannot remain stagnant. Things must evolve and storylines must find their endings so new things can begin.
So while I think the two should remain separate i have no hatred for LG. cause as i see it LG was the second coming of Greyhawk. imight not play it but It does bring something to the table which is more than I can say about some of it's critics.
With that said come read the Postfest article's voting has already ended but take a look at what fan based material can produce at nothing more than the cost of and ever evolving imagination. Canonfire.com
*yawn*
Posts like these are always such positive contributions to a thread. And people wonder why this forum is so prone to namecalling and flamewars...
All in all though, I agree with the original post. LG shouldn't be considered official development for the campaign. Sure, there are things the campaign does that can be used, but using all of it wholesale will just muck things up to the point where determining any sense of campaign flavor will become impossible.
One thing I have difficulties with is the fact that after the GH wars, almost every thing get fixed as before by all LG regions. Almor is freed, the Shield Lands are freed, etc... Evil seems strong, but is loosing everywhere. Seems like all the GH wars (and occupations) are being erased. All of a sudden, everything is righted. Seems rather like a hollywood scenario than an adult campaign...
Anyway, LG is sometime a great source. But I think that the LG causes such a clash for two simple facts:
1. Many, many DMs: thousands of mind of different ages and backgrounds is sure to shake the foundation of tradition (for the best or the worse); and
2. The fundamental changes in gaming rules: version 3.5 changes drastically some acknowledged conventions (double classed character available to all, no level limit fo anyone, spell use, combat, and more). Those changes affect the old league as surelly as the voting right of women in a not so long past. (it is an image, I think that women should have the right to vote, so don't put me on a funeral-pyre, hehehehe)
Like most of you, my GH campaigns are customized. Much of it is built from the 1st Ed, then adapted to the 2nd. I now use what I call a 666th Ed with custom rules, an hybrid of 1st, 2nd, 3rd Ed and other game system rules. What I use of Greyhawk is its precious and diverse background. But I must confess, something really kill me... A dwarven samouraï... Well... I'm dying...
Fearghal
I am a heretic.
I allow paladins of Wee Jas in my campaign. They are quite a bit different than your average paladin though. Variant rules are the key. They mainly serve as guardians of Wee Jas' temples and clergy. They are holy warriors, defenders, and serve to aid the clergy in meteing out justice to the blasphemous, namely undead and other such things antithetical to the tenets of the religion. Knights in shining armor they are not. My version are known as "Black Paladins of Wee Jas". I borrowed some of the changes for them from the variant alignment paladin articles from Dragon(one from long ago, and one that is fairly recent) and added a few changes of my own.
I see your point of view regrading GH and LG, and agree with it. Some LG things are well thought out; many are not. It is up to us to make our own changes. It is nice to have something in print which corresponds to how things are in our own campaigns or that preserve the certain flavor that Greyhawk has, but for the sake of inclusion the triads have made certain decisions. I understand why these decisions were made, even if I don't agree with them.
One thing I have difficulties with is the fact that after the GH wars, almost every thing get fixed as before by all LG regions. Almor is freed, the Shield Lands are freed, etc... Evil seems strong, but is loosing everywhere. Seems like all the GH wars (and occupations) are being erased. All of a sudden, everything is righted. Seems rather like a hollywood scenario than an adult campaign...
I disagree. The fundamental roll back of so called 'evil' forces (how I loathe that word) happened in supplements before LGG.
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
P.S: Idee will never be free....
What are those supplements? I owe almost everything from Greyhawk during 1st and 2nd ED, but very few of 3rd.
In the Marklands, Iuz the Evil, Scarlet Botherhood, Ivid the Undying and the like, nothing prevail to a mass liberation from all front. But maybe I'm missing something somewhere else. I'm but a mortal
By the way, folks, I also use paladins of different alignments since their release in Dragon Magasine of Feb 1986. I have adapted them to my campaigns. So, I have no probs about Wee Jas paladins. I have a problem with a Lawful Good Wee Jas paladin.
Fearghal
Hi Simpi,
What are those supplements? I owe almost everything from Greyhawk during 1st and 2nd ED, but very few of 3rd.
In the Marklands, Iuz the Evil, Scarlet Botherhood, Ivid the Undying and the like, nothing prevail to a mass liberation from all front. But maybe I'm missing something somewhere else. I'm but a mortal
Fearghal
I think Adventure Begins by Roger E. Moore reports plenty of these mass liberations, like the Great Northern Crusade, Throwing back Scarlet Brotherhood in Onnwal, etc.
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslaver
Good day to all of you.
Fearghal
The various corrections (Flight of Fiends, Great Northern Crusade etc) simply were needed too help restore balance to the gameworld.
I was impressed with the plausible way it was implemented (GH wise)
Aerdy collapsed
Iuz Empire was always rife with factional dissent
Scarlet Brotherhood : Granted suffered setbacks but given their iphilosophy it is plausible, SB began on a roll feeding their own sense of superiority until they overeached but they quickly regrouped and are planning anew to recover lost gains.
Plus side for Evil
Stonehold, Ket and Pomarj retained wealth and land
Aerdy stabilized into two kingdoms
SB retained some gains and maintained blockade
Iuz recovered from loss of demons
GH is hardly as depressing as it once was but no one is putting away their sword just yet.
I allow paladins of Wee Jas in my campaign. They are quite a bit different than your average paladin though. Variant rules are the key. They mainly serve as guardians of Wee Jas' temples and clergy. They are holy warriors, defenders, and serve to aid the clergy in meteing out justice to the blasphemous, namely undead and other such things antithetical to the tenets of the religion. Knights in shining armor they are not. My version are known as "Black Paladins of Wee Jas". I borrowed some of the changes for them from the variant alignment paladin articles from Dragon(one from long ago, and one that is fairly recent) and added a few changes of my own.
Well, a) it's your home game, do what you want, and b) I don't have a problem with variant paladins, I have a problem with Lawful Good Paladins worshipping a goddess of death and magic who has a tendancy towards evil if push comes to shove, and the same paladin riding a monstrous spider as their mount.
Under the rules it's allowed because technically, Wee Jas is Lawful Neutral. That doesn't mean it should be allowed, as the context of the goddess and her religion makes such a character not only unlikely, but implausible and somewhat ridiculous. Which is the fundamental concern I have about LG. It's all fine and well on it's own, but if it should ever become GH canon, at that very moment, I will become a grognard and start up a website (maybe call it "Dungeonsdoor" or maybe "Chimerastoe"), and complain vehemently about the ridiculousness of it all, and pine for the 'old' days.
Well, a) it's your home game, do what you want, and b) I don't have a problem with variant paladins, I have a problem with Lawful Good Paladins worshipping a goddess of death and magic who has a tendancy towards evil if push comes to shove, and the same paladin riding a monstrous spider as their mount.
Riding Spider (=Vermin) is illegal even by core rules if I remember correctly :D
Vermin has no intelligence and thus cannot be trained to become a mount. Therefore it would need fiendish/celestial template or some other way to gain intelligence
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
P.S: Above was sarcasm, directed at the sillines of it all....
Well, a) it's your home game, do what you want, and b) I don't have a problem with variant paladins, I have a problem with Lawful Good Paladins worshipping a goddess of death and magic who has a tendancy towards evil if push comes to shove, and the same paladin riding a monstrous spider as their mount.
Truer words were never spoken (or typed, or read, or . . . .)
.. . . . Which is the fundamental concern I have about LG. It's all fine and well on it's own, but if it should ever become GH canon, at that very moment, I will become a grognard and start up a website (maybe call it "Dungeonsdoor" or maybe "Chimerastoe"), and complain vehemently about the ridiculousness of it all, and pine for the 'old' days.
Let me know when someone makes a decision on whether LG is canon or not!!!
And then please let me know who that person or people are so that I can send suggestions!!! :D
Let me know when someone makes a decision on whether LG is canon or not!!!
And then please let me know who that person or people are so that I can send suggestions!!! :D
Suggestions... in form of tiny C4 bombs packed in sweet *Hello Kitty* envelopes!
So with no additional material on the horizon, why argue about another home group become Greyhawk canon. No, I'm not an anti-LG person. I play in it and generally like my experiences. Is it better than a good home group? No, but finding a really good home group is hard. Since I move alot (part of my job) maintaining a good home group is near impossible for an extend period of time. LG fills my DnD needs; so, I don't have a problem with them. Yes, some of the adventures are really bad but some of them are really great. On the plus side, I can (and have) taken my characters from one region and played in another across the US with no problems. I did not have to worry about finding a good group that is overpowered or underpowered for my character. Or even worse, having to make a new character everytime I have gone somewhere else.
So, should LG and Greyhawk remain seperate? Until Wizards hints otherwise, it does not matter; they are seperate. A small home group will keep playing GH as they envision GH, and LG DMs and players will play in their (admittedly, really big) home group. As of this moment in time, neither really has the right to denounce the other.
Until someone actually decides to print some more "official" Greyhawk material, this thread appears pointless. It is very unlikely (as someone suggested) for WotC to lease out the Greyhawk name to another company for printing and development. GH is the default campaign world for DnD, and there is no reason for WotC to risk that campaign world.
That's open to debate. Notice that there were references to GH in the first three books of the "Complete .." series. None in the fourth. Why? Could it be that they made their decision and are quietly removing any link to GH from current/future products? Frostburn had some, it will be interesting to see if Sanstorm will as well or not. That should give us a hint...
That's open to debate. Notice that there were references to GH in the first three books of the "Complete .." series. None in the fourth. Why? Could it be that they made their decision and are quietly removing any link to GH from current/future products? Frostburn had some, it will be interesting to see if Sanstorm will as well or not. That should give us a hint...
I may be naive to think that, but I always supposed that the references given in most WotC products might vary in respect to the author's gaming preferences...
Note that the Complete Adventurer had no reference whatsoever to Eberron either. The mystery deepens...
I do want to offer 1 point, however..
Until the RPGA can amass funding and make available to the general public, published material for retail sale, then they are just getting in the way.
Q: "WoTC, publish some Greyhawk for the fans."
A: "No, we might interfere with what the RPGA is doing with their living campaign."
Q: "RPGA, publish some Greyhawk for the fans that don't want to become members and play at sanctioned events. Make product available for us at our retail stores."
A: "Umm... we don't have any money, why don't you just join the RPGA?"
Please...
Luckily, we have Dungeon Magazine whom wisely did away with Polyhedron and the labelling "Living Greyhawk" and "Living Greyhawk Approved." A step in the right direction, indeed.
Now we just need more Isles of Woe rising and Nyrond "Traidism" and we may yet get Greyhawk published or liscensed out.
Monkeyboner's avatar looks much more like he is pleasuring himself than yawning. lol...
But, hey - what do they know? ;)
Secondly, as to LG canon and GH canon ever merging in the future - there's been some good stuff in LG and some...not so good stuff. I'd imagine that who ever gets the joyous task of pulling the threads of a future incarnation of GH will winnow through the LG material and seperate the wheat from the chaff. What I would say to anyone producing material in LG with a view to eventually, maybe, perhaps, possibly, seeing it rolled into a future iteration of GH is - keep it as close to the spirit and canon of GH as you can. I don't imagine the compiler of the future will have much patience for stuff that isn't consistant with GH canon/spirit or of good quality.
Another factor to remember is who owns what material. It's likely that WotC (or whoever) will only incorporate material that it owns - i.e. stuff that it has bought the IP rights to - so Cores or Regionals/Adaptables from the first two years. To do otherwise risks getting stuck in a quagmire of IP rights, arguements who created what and when and all the rest of it.
So in short - canon purists: I wouldn't lose too much sleep about the future sanctity of GH; but equally - if you're one of those who passes the time sticking needles in LG voodoo dolls - get used to living with disappointment.
Paul
LG Circle of Seven
Another factor to remember is who owns what material. It's likely that WotC (or whoever) will only incorporate material that it owns - i.e. stuff that it has bought the IP rights to - so Cores or Regionals/Adaptables from the first two years. To do otherwise risks getting stuck in a quagmire of IP rights, arguements who created what and when and all the rest of it.
Paul
LG Circle of Seven
I was wonder if anyone had noticed that or was going to mention it.
Indeed, since WotC has changed the contracts for LG modules, pretty much nothing that has been done in LG can appear in future iterations of Greyhawk without a whole bunch of complex searching for authors and writing new contracts.
Everything done in LG is being tossed by the wayside. Some small portion that makes it into the magazines might remain, but everything else is just here today, gone tomorrow. Should WotC ever do another GH sourcebook, it will be wide open what they decide to do with (or to) the setting.
To be successful in the retail market, the products would have to accomadate the home DM and his players.
The Greyhawker, not the Living Campaigner.
Eitherway, I can not wait for the day that I can head down to Barnes & Noble or Bookworld and once again, buy a Greyhawk product.
Here's a vote for 3rd party liscensing! Screw conflictions with the RPGA's (silly) campaign.
Also, why would a new canon content manager cater to people of thel iving campaign whom most likely wouldn't purchase books for home use since most of them don't even play at home!
Wow! Yet another sweeping generalisation (without a shred of evidence) from Anti-LG people....
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) Webslave
Also, don't assume I'm anti-LG, bcuz I'm not. I'm anti-RPGA. Their inability to maintain funding from WoTC or come up with their own is the better part of the reason why we don't have Greyhawk material available to us in public retail stores such as the LGG, or their LGJs being handed out or even available for sale at conventions.
I only lay blame on them secondarily though. It is WoTC whom ignores the Greyhawk community and believes the core-setting treatment will please us...enough. It is WoTC whom allowed the RPGA access to Greyhawk to use as a campaign which has led up to a membership campaign that some 17,000? enjoy.
17,000.... what about the 100,000 or so home campaigners? (figurative numbers ofcourse)
My primary concern is buying Greyhawk material, retail. If the RPGA can't do that, then give it to somebody that can.
I would love to see some published material for Greyhawk. It was the very first world I played in, and I have plenty of fond memories of the great times in Greyhawk. Do I claim to be a Greyhawk trivial pursuit god? No, but I consider myself knowledgeable. Is LG the greatest campaign in the world? No, but I'm not going to cry about. If I didn't think it was worth playing, then I wouldn't play. But I definitely wouldn't go around calling people "clueless".
Really, you could advocate getting published GH material without resorting to name calling.
It's only natural that people want to defend that which they have poured so much time into, but if you are taking that much offense to the minor remark of "clueless," I'm sorry.
Taking offense to that (as namecalling) would be no different than me interpreting your "not crying about it" statement, as calling me a crybaby.
So don't sell LG players short because of who bothers to speak up in forums. All GH should be consigned to oblivion if we did that based on the comments in some GH forums regarding certain material and certain authors.
Skimming back, no one has said that they don't like the Living Campaign.
However, my main point still holds true. Home gamers (which there are alot more of) buy and will buy more retail sold books.
The RPGA doesn't put Greyhawk product on retail shelves bcuz they don't have any $$$ to.
WoTC doesn't put Greyhawk product on retail shelves, in part, bcuz they "off'd" the setting onto the RPGA and they believe the Greyhawkers (not the living campaigners) are content with the core-setting treatment.
I want retail product. Whether it be by RPGA, WoTC, or 3rd party. Obviously the first 2 options are not going to (or can not) produce that result.
That is an incorrect analysis.
And you said that WotC wasn't interesting in supporting a living campaign with releases.
That is also an incorrect analysis.
Why WotC will support FR and Eberron with releases but not Greyhawk is obviously related to something other than the LG campaign. Why they won't, and why they think people will constantly accept that explanation in the face of evidence to the contrary, is something you'll have to get a WotC suit to answer.
Likewise for your comments regarding the RPGA and funding. That WotC has effectively gutted the RPGA in recent years while still trying to make it the spearpoint of their marketing is again something you need a WotC suit to explain.
What remains from both of those is that the reasons for everything are elsewhere, and not just in LG. Until people get beyond that false image, saying you want something other than LG isn't really going to achieve all that much. A decision has obviously been made not to support the setting, no matter what. Find out why, and then maybe you can figure out how to change that decision.
No, what you said was that Living Campaign players have no interest in or need for background materials.
True, I did say that more-or-less.
That is an incorrect analysis.
Maybe, but not as I see it.
And you said that WotC wasn't interesting in supporting a living campaign with releases.
I'm not sure what you mean by this or where you are drawing this conclusion from my texts, but I want WoTC to support Greyhawk (as a setting) with retail product, not the living campaign (or resources that have content related to it, although that would be fine by me too.) That or the RPGA to supply product that is available, retail. Either option would be great. I just want some damn Greyhawk product.
(Thank you, DUNGEON magazine.)
Why WotC will support FR and Eberron with releases but not Greyhawk is obviously related to something other than the LG campaign. Why they won't, and why they think people will constantly accept that explanation in the face of evidence to the contrary, is something you'll have to get a WotC suit to answer.
Let me clarify this again. I believe WoTC won't liscence out Greyhawk to a 3rd party publisher (as they have with Dragonlance and Ravenloft) bcuz they have allowed the RPGA use of the setting.... Speculation? Yes
Perhaps that is why WoTC feels they have the right to market through the RPGA without any compensation forwarded to that organization?
Likewise for your comments regarding the RPGA and funding. That WotC has effectively gutted the RPGA in recent years while still trying to make it the spearpoint of their marketing is again something you need a WotC suit to explain.
The RPGA (along with any organization) would do well to create income. I can think of ways they *could* make $$$. I'm sure everyone else can too. Maybe if they'd do that, we home gamers could get some retail product out of them like the LGG?
What remains from both of those is that the reasons for everything are elsewhere, and not just in LG.
I've already pointed my blame (for no Greyhawkian retail products) to WoTC primarily and with some fault by association to the RPGA (bcuz they aren't trying to make $$$ so they can put some product on retail shelves either.)
Living Greyhawk is an innocent by-stander, and I'm glad thousands of people enjoy it. However, I'm not happy that a greater number of people, whom do not participate in the living campaign, are left out in the cold, so-to-speak.
Also, I once wanted to gain WoTC's support in setting Canonfire up as an official fan site of Greyhawk, but was told that Canonfire can not be claimed an Official Site of Greyhawk bcuz of the RPGA, whereas other out-of-print settings have 3rd party official sites, such as athas.org, mystaranet, planewalker.com, etc..
So the living campaign might carry some weight as it pertains to others laying their hands on the setting, which could possibly hinder a 3rd party publisher from gaining a liscence.
I'm not trying to argue, and I know once you start throwing quotes around ,people begin to get defensive. I'm stating my opinions for discussion and am attempting to be very open to "both sides of the story."
However, I am going to withdraw from this thread. It seems there is too much room for floating off the base topic and misunderstanding people's agendas and intentions.
Note that the Complete Adventurer had no reference whatsoever to Eberron either. The mystery deepens...
That's a point that would support my theory: Maybe the writer group consisted of *very angry* Lankhmar or Wilderlands fans that REALLY annoyed because they are asking for support for their setting since the end of 1st ed...
And now they took their possibility for revenge...One reason why they leave out such references could also be that many people who buy such books might not even play classical D&D anymore, but new d20 alternatives, like Warcraft, Midnight or Morning Star... So, I wouldn't see it necessarily as a sign that they leave such references out... *Although I'd like to see them*
Likewise, I suspect that if a third party were to offer WotC enough money to license the setting, WotC would do so.
Likewise, I suspect that if a third party were to offer WotC enough money to license the setting, WotC would do so.
Randall Patton inquired about purchasing a limited greyhawk liscence and the reply he recieved was that there is none for sale.
Ofcourse, I don't think he presented them with any dollar amount, or perhaps he did and that was the reasoning behind the reply, heh heh.
Randall Patton inquired about purchasing a limited greyhawk liscence and the reply he recieved was that there is none for sale.
But if 3rd party would receive Greyhawk, wouldn't that mean that Living Greyhawk players would suffer since that would mean it's demise. I think it would just turn the tables. Instead of Abysslin complaining that 'I want Greyhawk products, damn the others', me (and others) would be here complaining 'We want Living Greyhawk back!' and fanbase would again be divided.
S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
Only RPGA owned campaigns are being allowed to use anything more than the Core books. (The one exception is Living Arcanis which had an agreement to use the Psionics book that was made before this change in policy.) Because of that, if someone else were to take over GH, and presumably the LG campaign, the RPGA would lose the captive audience to feed their ever-expanding publication list to people. No more Complete Series, Race Series, Terrain Series, Creature Type Series, and whatever else Series they have planned. And despite constant assertions and opinions otherwise, and attempts to change it, LG remains the biggest RPGA campaign running.
Further, the reason WotC doesn't "compensate" the RPGA is because the RPGA is not an independent organization. It is a branch of WotCs marketing department. Why on earth would they pay their own marketers to use their own product to do their jobs promoting and selling their own material?
This is also why the RPGA is not publishing anything. They are not an independent organization. They are part of marketing. Publishing is done by another division. Nor is marketing expected to generate revenue for itself. It is supposed to sell the products being put out, not compete with the company in putting out products for people to buy.
Now I know a lot of people remember when the RPGA was a member run organization that just ran games that were often set in TSR/WotC owned worlds. Apparently a lot of people didn't get the memo, but that hasn't been true for several years. (Hint: Right when the cost of RPGA membership soared so it could earn money, then disappeared because they gave up on a marketing branch generating its own income. Not coincidentally, that was when the definitive statements about no RPGA published GH materials was made.) People need to stop thinking the RPGA works on way when it simply doesn't, and accept the reality of how WotC interacts with it now. Then add in the licensing factor I noted in my first paragraph, and understand that LG is not going anywhere until the RPGA somehow manages to create a campaign that is a bigger draw than it, even with stacking the deck against it by giving more player rewards for playing other campaigns, and having most of those rewards only usable in those campaigns.
As it goes, Greyhawk is indeed a victim of its own success with LG. So indeed, if you want it licensed out or something, it will almost certainly require the end of the LG campaign, and the splintering mentioned. That, or a sea-change in attitudes at WotC.
hey, i'm not being selflish here by wanting some published Greyhawk.
I know this question might come across as facetious, but it really isn't at all: WHY do you want published Greyhawk material?
I am a Greyhawk fan, and have been since back in the day. While I don't frequent CANONFIRE! or spend hours debating this or that topic, I consider myself someone who grew up with Greyhawk. All of my home campaigns were set in Greyhawk--unless I decided to do a home brew. I wrote my own Greyhawk material, as well as falling back on the old classics.
I got back into gaming right at the release of 3.5 (not because of that, the timing was coincidental). It also turned out that Living Greyhawk was just ramping up at that point, and I was having trouble finding enough interested players in my area for a home game, so I checked it out. And voila! Suddenly not only did I have the LGG, but I had tons of resources that I could mine for great ideas and fun adventures. Certainly not every bit of information was what I would want to put into MY Greyhawk, and some of the adventures were corny or downright bad. And not all the people involved, even at the highest levels, are people who I would consider at all knowledgable in the nuances of Greyhawk lore.
But it was Greyhawk-based, it was plentiful, it was free, and some of it was very good. So that comes back to the question: why do you want published Greyhawk material? I could speculate, but that would be doing you an injustice.
Regards,
Shawn
Do you imagine that Erik Mona would have been able to sell the idea of a four part Greyhawk map (and all the rest of the cool stuff) to Paizo (the managment's sympathies towards GH notwithstanding) if it hadn't been for LG? If you go back through the archives of these boards, Erik said the LGJ Greyhawk content was pretty much underwritten by LG and the interest therein.
Like a certain crazy old King of Britain, LG is more sinned against than sinning.
But then I would say that...
P.
LG Circle
Just a comment on the Dungeon content...
Do you imagine that Erik Mona would have been able to sell the idea of a four part Greyhawk map (and all the rest of the cool stuff) to Paizo (the managment's sympathies towards GH notwithstanding) if it hadn't been for LG? If you go back through the archives of these boards, Erik said the LGJ Greyhawk content was pretty much underwritten by LG and the interest therein.
Like a certain crazy old King of Britain, LG is more sinned against than sinning.
But then I would say that...
P.
LG Circle
I think Dungeon 112 and Maure Castle probably had a little bit of an impetus, afterall I don't think there are any LG-"only" specific locations on the map. My impression was that issue was one of the most popular issues that they had put out in a long time.
You must've missed or misinterpreted the point which you further supported. People that do have the time for home games are generally going to be the ones that will buy the retail products (that aren't being put out.)
It's only natural that people want to defend that which they have poured so much time into, but if you are taking that much offense to the minor remark of "clueless," I'm sorry.
Taking offense to that (as namecalling) would be no different than me interpreting your "not crying about it" statement, as calling me a crybaby.
You're right. Poor choices of words are wonderful.
I don't see LG going away anytime in the future. But there is a basic problem in your posts. In order to take full advantage (ie powergaming, which unfortunately there are alot of players that do this in LG) of LG, you need the Complete books. With the recent LG campaign guide, you will probably need the Races books too. Personally, most players that I know of in LG have these books. If WotC were to print GH material that was incorporated in LG (ie feats and new prestige classes), players will purchase them. The fact that LG adventures are free may make us look cheap, but the fact of the matter is, we spend quite a bit money to keep current.
hey, i'm not being selflish here by wanting some published Greyhawk.
What I don't understand is: What's the difference? You either buy published material, written by someone else, or you tap into Living Greyhawk material, written by someone else.
Either way, you're adapting others ideas to your home campaign.
And no one should fool themselves into thinking that one source for Greyhawk material is more "official" or "canon" than any other source of material. For Greyhawk, that argument is moot. It all comes down to individual DM's and what they want to run in their campaign.
hey, i'm not being selflish here by wanting some published Greyhawk.
Amen.
If there was an organized fan-based alternative, I might be less inclined to be so agreeable, but while there is the potential for such, it has yet to be realized.
Published GH material serves a function and a need that LG etc. does not. LG is a dinky part of RPG fandom at 15,000 gamers, plus or minus. Far more gamers, to judge by the 1.4 million active, 4 million total numbers Wotc has released, are active outside of LG than within it. There is literally a silent majority that is not LG. Published material is the only reliable way to reach that silent majority (Con atendance is even a smaller segment of fandom).
How many of those silent ones are GH fans that would respond to published material? Any number would be only a guess. However, using a marketing formula we commonly use at work, if we say that the LG is representative of the most active Greyhawkers, this translates into approximately 75,000 equally hardcore Greyhawkers who are out there but quiet. Only published material will get to them. (If I were to continue to believe that my company's Marketing Department knew what it was doing, heh, the total GH audience out to the fringes might be estimated at quite a bit over a quarter million but not a half million).
I think, however, that Samwise has made a very telling point about the RPGA as a marketing tool and not a sales channel. I'd go further and say that the target audience for LG is not Greyhawkers. Rather, it is gamers generally. LG is just a means to an end that was chosen when there was a thought to "leverage" GH as part of an "old school" or "homecoming" or "old is new again" approach. That's done and LG continues under its own momentum. I suspect, but do not know, that if The Powers That Be were able to immediately translate LG numbers to Eberron, that they would do so without a moments hesitation. I don't think Greyhawk has any hold on the imaginations of Wotc/Hasbro, at least any that I can see.
To say that LG is going nowhere, meaning it will continue, is a half-truth, I think. It stays because of momentum only until it looses momentum, a way is found to migrate membership at 80% + or a new marketing campaign would be undercut by maintaining the LG. There is no love of GH in the RPGA as a marketing arm of Wotc; it is all about expediency, as far as I can see.
I am fairly accepting of LG, I think, but I don't kid myself that it is anything but a passing fancy. Published materials then are vital to Greyhawk's future in a way that the LG is not; they are far more enduring in their potential impact.
I think everything Abysslin has said has to have gone through the mind of any thoughtful observer, whether or not they ultimately agree or disagree.
Given the transitory nature of the LG and its tenuous existence, being only momentum when Wotc would likely love Eberron to have such momentum, it is more than unselfish to want published materials.
However, published materials are unlikely precisely because there is no love of GH, not purely because of the LG. I doubt there is a "Greyhawk faction" within Wotc. Its a business and Eberron is the corporate favorite.
Cutting the other way is a seeming reluctance to bet the farm on the corporate favorite. The good old Realms continue on, even though it feeds the need of fans who might go to Eberron were it not there. This same caution will likely, IMO, see the LG allowed to go forward without much impediment.
Waxing long, IMO, Wotc may be digging its own grave. LG keeps Greyhawk in the conversation. The Realms will prevent Eberron from having the best shot at market success. Eberron will suck the air out of the Realms because it is the corporate darling, substantially weakening the Realms in terms of support. Then 4E will launch tepidly with no "zig" like the OGL etc. gave 3E. Stagnation in motion. IMO, they need to get the courage of their convictions or develop a more workable multipolar model that would see cross-support between lines.
I support the LG because it keeps Greyhawk in motion at the moment and to the degree is keeps canon from hardening like GH's arteries. But IMO the ideal thing is for LG fans to push for published materials. Why? Because it is in GH's long term interest, assuming that GH's long term interests are of some interest to LG fans. IMO, if LG fans have no interest in published GH materials, they are not much of GH fans.
GVD
Waxing long, IMO, Wotc may be digging its own grave. LG keeps Greyhawk in the conversation. The Realms will prevent Eberron from having the best shot at market success. Eberron will suck the air out of the Realms because it is the corporate darling, substantially weakening the Realms in terms of support. Then 4E will launch tepidly with no "zig" like the OGL etc. gave 3E. Stagnation in motion. IMO, they need to get the courage of their convictions or develop a more workable multipolar model that would see cross-support between lines.
GVD
I agree with your thoughts, GVD, at least in general.
The truth is that rpg business IS in decline.
TSR saturated the market so far, and as long as there are conversion manuals out there, old stop like, say *Liberation of Geoff* will never vanish from game desks...
Eberron, although not a bad setting, seems to have failed to attract too much of the *hard-core, long time D&D players* on which the company normally distributes its products. (Let's be honest: Which One-time-a-year DM would buy the complete adventure series?! We may do, but we do that because we are kinda *freaks* - In the best sense :D ). In some years, noone will talk about Eberron anymore, I fear, and it may vanish like Birthright
, Dark Sun and other *supportive settings* did...So, to keep the game profitable, WotC may wait with 4th ed some more years, until the new sensation over d20 has faded... And look: Warcraft, Wheel of Time, Ravenloft, MotRD, Iron Kingdoms, the recently ended Scarred Lands, Midnight, Inzae, Zelda, Gaille, Legends of Erde,[...] they all have their fans that, although relying on the WotC *core books*, only feel limited interest in official D&D stuff.
With every new book published, WotC gains more quick money but looses customers for future *revolutionary* publications like new rule sets, IMHO.
;) Just my opinion. no offense anyone, please.
What I don't understand is: What's the difference? You either buy published material, written by someone else, or you tap into Living Greyhawk material, written by someone else.
True.. except there is an important difference. Published material would be available to all (provided they had the money and a shop nearby) while LG material isn't currently. Only DMs can download modules and even then only with the promise that they'll turn them into gaming sessions.
Yes, I know, you can lie about that, download the modules and then cancel the session, but the point is: the available LG material (beyond what is published in Dragon/Dungeon) is restricted to a selected few.
Heck, there is LG material that even DMs can't get right now (the Knight of the Watch PrC for instance) because you have to be of the "right" region to access it.
Published material wouldn't be for free but at the very least it would be available to all.
Published material wouldn't be for free but at the very least it would be available to all.
Indeed, as I said it MANY times before, the LGG would need an *openly available* update, which included many on the web enhancements and most of the new rules!I just recently read that the editors of Dungeon asked each triad for input on the Big GH Map project and only a few responded. So, the big map uses info from old 1E, 2E, LGG & 3E sources plus anything the triads gave up. So, the map is WotC supported, and therefore cannon.
If a triad didn't respond to the call and include any new geographical information that wasn't previously cannon then it wasn't put on the new Big GH Map. That means that whatever happened in that mod might as well have never happened and then it isn't really cannon.
So the logic would be that not all of LG is cannon, because not enough triads care enough about LG to make it become cannon. I've stopped playing LG for the most part because of that attitude, and I'm not sure its getting any better.
I just recently read that the editors of Dungeon asked each triad for input on the Big GH Map project and only a few responded. So, the big map uses info from old 1E, 2E, LGG & 3E sources plus anything the triads gave up. So, the map is WotC supported, and therefore cannon.
If a triad didn't respond to the call and include any new geographical information that wasn't previously cannon then it wasn't put on the new Big GH Map.
Triad members clearly work very hard but what a wasted opportunity to receive formal recognition for their efforts! I really don't understand why some were so lethargic.
Personally I think that LGG gives great inspiration for any home campaign. You can pick and choose as you like, just as with cannon. The only issue I have is that it is a nightmare to find information and updates. Web content varies dramatically.
I've taken it upon my own shoulders to stitch LGG, cannon, & fan stuff into my own gazeteer (a massive job) for my own use. If I ever finish it I'll have a complete, easily updatable database. That's the sort of resource we need! But it aint gonna happen.
As for the map, I'm going to check out the LGG sites and add on the locations myself. Some clear sticky labels and identical font should hopefully not look too bad. Would have been better if they'd done it for us but, hey, it's still the greatest official map resource to date.
True.. except there is an important difference. Published material would be available to all (provided they had the money and a shop nearby) while LG material isn't currently. Only DMs can download modules and even then only with the promise that they'll turn them into gaming sessions.
(snip)
Published material wouldn't be for free but at the very least it would be available to all.
I run an 3.5 rules/old-school-feel GH campaign (in the Yeomanry). I joined the LG Yeomanry Yahoo group, and got a huge amount of background and source material (not modules). I also regularly check in at Canonfire and a few other GH sites, and get a huge amount of material from them.
Outside of the LGG and the stuff I've written, I've found almost 300 files totalling about 250MB on GH. Of course, some of that is maps and some is pretty useless to me. But the material is out there.
(Some of it is WAY out there, but this is gaming we're talking about.)
Telas