Whose Cleric is that on the Holy Order's cover? That picture will get groups to stop treating Clerics like walking band-aids.
Soveign Press has its early 2005 product list up. Tas's Map of the Age of Mortals in March and Holy Order of the Stars in May. I hope that they are able and willing to do what it takes to keep THESE product release dates as close as possible to what they are advertising.
Amaron! Welcome back. How was your vacation? Good?
Cheers,
Cam
Amaron! Welcome back. How was your vacation? Good?
Cheers,
Cam
Now Cam, we don't actually know that this is Amaron. However, possessing both the same avatar and relatively the same signature kinda helps build the evidence...
Looking forward to all of the fun products coming out!
Zeboim's twenty teats! (favorite Dragonlance curse from Spirit of the Wind btw)
Whose Cleric is that on the Holy Order's cover? That picture will get groups to stop treating Clerics like walking band-aids.
Well...from the robe color I'd say Paladine...but the weapon doesn't match. In the end though, I think the robe color is the more telling factor, so I'm betting it's a cleric of Paladine. Booyah!
This is gonna be a good year for Dragonlance gaming.
Well...from the robe color I'd say Paladine...but the weapon doesn't match. In the end though, I think the robe color is the more telling factor, so I'm betting it's a cleric of Paladine. Booyah!
This is gonna be a good year for Dragonlance gaming.
He's probably just smarter than the average cleric. He probably saw the twenty skeletal warriors coming, dropped his longsword, and hefted a morningstar to make with the smashing. Seeing as Paladine is really the only god that utilizes white robes in the first place, I would say it is a cleric of Paladine as well. However, the medallion of faith he is wearing is golden in color, so who knows.
All I have to say, it looks like they are trying to change the image of the clerics from weak and meek to strong and cool.
Despite hardly ever playing clerics/druids, I am really looking forward to this book. Now my girlfriends mystic WILL undergo an epiphany...
Paladine's cleric uses a mace, Kiri-Jolith's cleric uses the longsword.
hmmm, I could have sworn Paladine's favored weapon was the longsword. Oh well, that just adds up the evidence that it is a cleric of Paladine. It kinda looks like a mace, that is.
When swarmed by skeleton warriors, I doubt any good god is going to get picky over his cleric's choice of hardware.
Now Cam, we don't actually know that this is Amaron. However, possessing both the same avatar and relatively the same signature kinda helps build the evidence...
Looking forward to all of the fun products coming out!
Where did you quote come from? the one about Nuitari's treachery. And what is the website I can check out the catolog?
Thanks
Things are good Cam. Come va tutti con voi?
La stessa storia. Try not to spend all day on these message boards, though, OK? It only leads to trouble.
Cheers,
Cam
Let's confine the discussion to the thread topic.
Thanks.
However, the medallion of faith he is wearing is golden in color, so who knows.
Well, you can't really trust Stawicki's Medallions of Faith...I mean look at what he thinks the symbol for infinity is (cover of Dawning of a New Age) ;)
And, I can't remember what Paladine's favored weapon is...but it's not a morning star...but I don't think that matters so much. It's the robes that are the most important, I think.
What I find interesting is that the cleric reminds me of the pics of Joram from the Darksword series.
I like the cover, though. Good cleric for DL purposes. Has his medallion of faith, has a mace, fighting undead. Plus, this cleric isn't a "walking hospital", as someone phrased it recently.
I can't wait to see what they do for a knight sourcebook someday.
Brim - Should I mention Stawicki and the Staff of Magius? :D
Don't even get me started. LOL!
I can't wait to see what they do for a knight sourcebook someday.
Oh, I'm sure it will be a picture of a Steel Knight on the cover doing good with a Solamnic Knight and Nerakan Knight in the background giving snub superior looks to the Steel Knight.
......
What? That's how I'd do it. :D
Besides the Cleric might not have the War Domain and never took Martial Weapon prof.
And if it's a cleric of Paladine, he can't select the War domain.
The favored weapon in this case really only comes into play when the cleric casts spiritual weapon. As for maces, Shinare and Takhisis are the only deities who have them as a favored weapon, but there is a long-standing tradition of clerics using them, for many of the reasons cited above.Cheers,
Cam
The cover was my idea. I wanted to see a kick-*** cleric of MIshakal for a change.
So there you have it. It's a cleric of Mishakal.
GCS
Where did you quote come from? the one about Nuitari's treachery. And what is the website I can check out the catolog?
Thanks
Oh, this quote is from my alternate universe. I find it hard to believe that the god that favors divining magic could be so easily fooled. So Solinari sends one of his faithful to restore the Tower of Nightlund to glory.
you can find the catalog on www.dragonlance.com/products
So there you have it. It's a cleric of Mishakal.
Well, if we don't have standard images of what Dragonlance clerics look like in terms of vestments and weapons, you can't blame us for being confused. If I was doing the cover, I would have had a cleric of Mishakal being badass carrying an iron-shod fighting staff and blue robes. Then there wouldn't have been any confusion.
Anyway, what was the rationale for making longsword a Cleric of Paladine weapon? Elistan carried a mace, Crysania carried a mace, and they talked about clerics of Paladine facing down Death Knights in the Age of Might while carrying maces.
Was it a matter that since Paladin's are knights and knights=longswords? Even then I would have thought a mace would be a sign of kingly power, and thus suit the leader of the gods of good.
Now Shinare... crossbow. Good for punching through an aristocrat's plate armour. ;) A good merchant's weapon.
Anyway, what was the rationale for making longsword a Cleric of Paladine weapon? Elistan carried a mace, Crysania carried a mace, and they talked about clerics of Paladine facing down Death Knights in the Age of Might while carrying maces.
Was it a matter that since Paladin's are knights and knights=longswords? Even then I would have thought a mace would be a sign of kingly power, and thus suit the leader of the gods of good.
I can't say for the reasoning of Paladine's favored weapon, but I believe that the rampant mace wielding comes from earlier editions of D&D when clerics were limited to weapons which did not draw blood (had sharp edges). This is no longer the case, thank the gods, but when many of these characters/stories were first written, that was the standard rules.
I can't say for the reasoning of Paladine's favored weapon, but I believe that the rampant mace wielding comes from earlier editions of D&D when clerics were limited to weapons which did not draw blood (had sharp edges). This is no longer the case, thank the gods, but when many of these characters/stories were first written, that was the standard rules.
Well yes of course, but there is quite a bit of 2e stuff that survived into 3e dragonlance. I'm just wondering why in particular the longsword invoked Paladine for the design choice. I associated Paladine with the mace, because it was a nod to the 2e roots of the setting, represented kingly power (ala scepters) and it would avoid questions like "Why is Elistan using a mace when Paladine's clerics use longswords?" ;)
So there you have it. It's a cleric of Mishakal.
Mishakal is ***ing metal. *throws up the "horns"* ;)
Alright, let's drop the speculation of who is "Really" who, could we?
Let's confine the discussion to the thread topic.
Thanks.
I was wondering what was up with all of the "detectives" on this thread.
I hope that they are able and willing to do what it takes to keep THESE product release dates as close as possible to what they are advertising.
I would not write that product release schedule in stone if I were you. There may be another hang-up.
Anyway, the products look ok. I'll have to view the contents of the books, at my local Border's bookstore once they come out, before I can decide whether they are worth the money though.
~~~
Sheesh, it's like you can't be a cleric of Mishakal if you're not dressed in blue and carrying a staff.
B-O-R-I-N-G!!!
What is with the unimaginative rules lawyers who can't get past the fact that a cleric doesn't HAVE to wear a certain colour of robes or wield a certain type of weapon all of the time.
Sheesh, it's like you can't be a cleric of Mishakal if you're not dressed in blue and carrying a staff.
B-O-R-I-N-G!!!
Campaign settings, and the novels associated with them, tend to create these "unimaginative rules lawyers"; some people cannot or will not do anything outside of what is written in the aforementioned sources. Not that this is the case with Shalafi, but that is usually the case with such gamers.
As much as settings and novels help DMs/Players out they also serve to create tunnel vision for fanatical fans(Both Players & DMs). Again, I am not referring to you in particular Shalafi.
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So there you have it. It's a cleric of Mishakal.
I know it's Margaret who said that and all...but you'll never convince me that's a cleric of Mishakal.
Speaking of the Staff of Magius is that what Palin is holding on the cover of DoNA The Eve of the Malestorm? I am guessing thats what you guys are talking about but it really confused me...
Well...yeah, there's that...
I think the illustrious DH was referring to my "rant" a while back about the size of the Staff of Magius in Stawicki's paintings. It's tiny...like 4 feet long.
Don't get me wrong...I really like Stawicki's art...I just don't think you can analyze it very much because it begins to fall apart...I can't quite put my finger on it...but sometimes his paintings just look...off, I guess. Not all of them. Most are completely excellent. Just so long as there aren't weapons or short people in the paintings. LOL! Things are proportioned incorrectly, something things are too large, some are too small...it's things that over the years have begun to grate one me.
Anyway...that's what DH was poking fun at. :D
What is with the unimaginative rules lawyers who can't get past the fact that a cleric doesn't HAVE to wear a certain colour of robes or wield a certain type of weapon all of the time.
Sheesh, it's like you can't be a cleric of Mishakal if you're not dressed in blue and carrying a staff.
Well, it is a setting detail. For example, if I was looking at a guy dressed in orange robes cut in the Tibetan style, I would be rather suprised to learn that he was a Ukranian Catholic Priest or a Navajo spiritual leader. I'd expect him to be a Tibetan lama. Religious dress is cultural and symbolic expression.
Now if it was a matter of practicality, as in the case when a cleric adopts secular dress, then perhaps I'd accept a cleric of Mishakal to be in different garb. Of course, I'd assume that the dress in this particular situation would have more armour given the task he is undertaking.
I hope there will be pictures of the clerics in religious vestments though. I've gotten used to this in other setting books, and would be dissappointed without them. Certainly if every prestige class deserves a picture (ala ToHS) then every cleric of Krynn's dieties deserves one too.
Campaign settings, and the novels associated with them, tend to create these "unimaginative rules lawyers";
No doubt, I mean, who would want to pay attention to that which makes Dragonlance, Dragonlance and not some other world.
Anyway...don't get me wrong, I don't think there has to be a standard vestment that every cleric has to wear (although I think those heavily involved in the church and not adventuring do have standardized vestments...it's just logical). I do however think the color is important...especially in the current time period of Ansalon.
The gods are all vying for power and they are trying to get worshiper. So, it is very important that people can tell who you represent easily (or who you want them to think you represent). The easiest way to do this with with your wardrobe. Hell...even just a sky blue sash would be good enough so long as people knew they were a cleric.
Anyway...it has nothing to do with being "unimaginative."
Originally posted by Brimstone:
The gods are all vying for power and they are trying to get worshiper. So, it is very important that people can tell who you represent easily (or who you want them to think you represent). The easiest way to do this with with your wardrobe. Hell...even just a sky blue sash would be good enough so long as people knew they were a cleric.
Speaking of sashes, Brim, if I recall correctly from the Elven Nations Trilogy the Silvanesti clerics (& maybe the Qualinesti too) typically wear/wore all white with a sash of their deity's color(s). Perhaps this dude is, umm....an ambassador to the elven clergy...errr...and he didn't know the nation was ***spoiler omitted***...and while walking through the forest, uhhh...he lost his sky blue sash. =) How's that work?
Anyway, I don't see why everyone is making a big deal about the color of his robes. If Wizards of High Sorcery can get away with not wearing their orders favored color, why can't clerics do the same?
PS (If the book hasn't gone to production yet, maybe they could print it with a few extra blue plates...?? Hehehe...j/k...)
No doubt, I mean, who would want to pay attention to that which makes Dragonlance, Dragonlance and not some other world.
A die-hard DragonLance fan speaks.
If you actually paid attention to what I wrote you will notice that nowhere did I say to not pay attention to everything which makes DragonLance, DragonLance. If one disregarded "everything DragonLance" then they would not be playing DragonLance, but I hardly think changing a robe color will suddenly alter an entire world.
To be perfectly clear what I "did" say was...
...As much as settings and novels help DMs/Players out they also serve to create tunnel vision for fanatical fans(Both Players & DMs).
I also said...
... some people cannot or will not do anything outside of what is written in the aforementioned sources.
This would mean that some will not step outside of what is written in the official sources. For instance, the KoD modules is an official gaming product, but Cam Banks only uses the module as a guideline. He adds his own classes, races, etc from what I can tell. He is not "bound" by the official sources as most of the fanatical fans seem to be.
Anyway...it has nothing to do with being "unimaginative."
The poster whom made said statement seems to think it does. Talk to him about it.
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I hope that this book will give the stats for people like Cyrsania, Elistan and the Kingpriest.
Wearing distinctive dress is part of what makes the clergy the clergy. How else would one know that one is a priest without the Roman collar in the real world? Sinply, you wouldnt unless you were friends with the reverend father. The same I think would be held in Dragonlance and other Campaign settings. Wearing white symbolizing good is fine and I am familiar with the elven custom of the different color sashes. But the cleric on the cover only has the white robes on and nothing else, the medallion's symbol is not discernible so how are we to know who he follows sans this important information, especially since Paladine is no longer divine?
I hope that this book will give the stats for people like Cyrsania, Elistan and the Kingpriest.
One does not need to view said roman collar, nor be personal friends with said clergyman in order to identify the aforementioned person being spoken of above as a priest.
Also, the point, of my post on this thread, is actually much deeper than the color of one's cloak. The cloak fiasco was specifically wolfenjugend's MO anyway. Just to comment on the above though...changing the color of one's cloak, or some other minute detail, will not destroy the DragonLance campaign setting.
DMs and players change things in the DL world as they see fit. Just because said changes do not match with the latest DL gaming product, or the latest DL novel, does not mean the campaign automatically ceases to be DragonLance.
Change is the nature of D&D, players, and DMs, are going to do things that are going to come into conflict with Hickman's, or Weis', next novel. Does this mean that since Mina is dead in their campaign, yet Weis says she is alive in the novel, that the DMs campaign is no longer DragonLance ? Do you truly think like this(This is an actual question. I am not accusing you.) ? How sad, and how limited IMO your campaigns must be if so.
Novels, and gaming products, are great; but they also serve to create tunnel-vision for fanatical DL players/DMs.
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One does not need to view said roman collar, nor be personal friends with said clergyman in order to identify the aforementioned person being spoken of above as a priest.
Well they don't exactly have a flashing neon sign above them. ;)
Anyway, this isn't a criticism of the campaign world, but of the painting itself. Like I said on the other boards, Margaret Weis commissioned a cleric of Mishakal fighting undead, and what she got was a cleric of Paladine fighting undead. If we have to ask which god the cleric represents, then obviously the painting isn't doing a good job of representing a cleric of a particular god.
The rules lawyer accusation though just doesn't make any sense. What do rules have to do with this issue at all, or whether some people add stuff from other settings to the campaign world? It is a question of whether or not the cleric looks like a cleric of Mishakal. I think many of us would say that it doesn't.
When I look at that pic, I see a Dragonlance cleric. He has his medallion of faith. He wields a mace. He's battling undead. This is a stereotypical cleric, and can work for any number of gods.
The important art will be what's inside the cover. This will be the art that should have a certain consistency and allow you to instantly recognize which god they worship.
The goal of the cover art is to identify this book as a book of clerics, which it succeeds in doing.
The goal of the cover art is to identify this book as a book of clerics, which it succeeds in doing.
Good points DH, good points. As a cover, I think the pic is wonderful. Inside artwork should have a little more focus on detail like this discussion, um, discusses.
To me, I don't see the cleric as a cleric of Mishakal (no blue, and not the infinity symbol, or even a blue crystal staff for that matter, even though the last is an artifact, and not handed out liberally by/to Mishy's faithful). I don't see that character as a cleric of Paladine either since Paladine isn't a god anymore, and the character isn't really wearing his symbol either (triangle). I DO see this as the stereotypical cleric wearing white to symbolize a good guy, wielding a mace to batter undead. That is a timeless, sterotypical image of a good cleric, and like I say, ideal for the image that should be conveyed on the cover of the book. If the interior artwork doesn't show little details though, then I can see a problem...
Cheers,
Cam
What really happened is that this cleric of Mishakal was staying over at his White Robed girlfriend's place and, when awakened by the sound of undead clamoring in the front yard, threw on the closest outfit he could reach. Hence the white robes. It all makes sense.
Cheers,
Cam
That would be the case if he didn't have a mullet. Something inside me makes me want to photoshop this into a Metal Gear Solid image...
This image kind of has a romance novel cover feel to it, now that I look at it. For some reason, this guy's robes are missing the sleeves. Now, if your theory is right, Cam, then I would rather be looking at the picture of that White Robe.:D Considering how the robes fit on this guy, they were probably held up by nothing more than a Wish spell.
Good lord, has this thread been derailed enough yet?
Anyway, I am really looking forward to Holy Orders. While I hardly ever play clerics, I may have to indulge myself now.
What really happened is that this cleric of Mishakal was staying over at his White Robed girlfriend's place and, when awakened by the sound of undead clamoring in the front yard, threw on the closest outfit he could reach. Hence the white robes. It all makes sense.
That explains why his outfit looks like an evening gown. Boy, is his girlfriend going to be mad!
This image kind of has a romance novel cover feel to it, now that I look at it.
Cam, does this sound familiar to you? ;)
does this sound familiar to you? ;)
Isn't that what Margaret Weis originally said about the original cover to Test of the Twins with Raistlin and Crysania on the cover? You'd almost think that was tied in with the setting's theme or something....
I'd rationalize it as such: The cleric has had his blue tunic ripped out by the claws of the undead attacking him leaving him with only his white vest which he wears close to his heart (:inlove: ) as a symbol of his devotion for the apex of Good (you know, the apex of the -now broken- triangle but which is very much alive in my mind
).I'd rationalize it as such: The cleric has had his blue tunic ripped out by the claws of the undead attacking him leaving him with only his white vest which he wears close to his heart (:inlove: ) as a symbol of his devotion for the apex of Good (you know, the apex of the -now broken- triangle but which is very much alive in my mind
Well...the whole thing really just kinda started off as a joke with Trampas that has kind of been blown out of proportion now. I mean it's really not that important who the cleric on the cover is. LOL!
But, for the sake of arguments, I'll choose this one as the truth of the matter.
p.s. Yes, the triangle is still alive in my mind as well...which means at some point either the good and evil pantheon need a new deity, or Gilean needs to step down. It's really more of a tetrahedron with good, evil, and neutral at each of the base corners...being balanced at the apex. That's the way I always understood Dragonlance "balance" (and it's still like that on Tracy's website as well). I've not seen a good explanation for why things are still balanced according to Tracy's diagram.
Well they don't exactly have a flashing neon sign above them. ;)
Neither a "flashing neon" sign, nor a "roman collar" is needed to verify one's position as a priest. If you wish to continue to believe that this is the only means of verifying a member of said priest-hood, then by all means continue to do so. I most certainly shall lose no sleep over someone else's "opinion".
What do rules have to do with this issue at all, or whether some people add stuff from other settings to the campaign world? It is a question of whether or not the cleric looks like a cleric of Mishakal. I think many of us would say that it doesn't.
It has alot to do with it. Rules lawyers, and fanatical DragonLance fans, will attack any and everything that is not part of the "official" DragonLance products(Gaming products, novels, etc). When a DM, or player, attempts to bring something "new"(Meaning more than just making up a few flimsy NPCs for the campaign setting) into said "official" world(Dragonlance), the fanatical fan/rules lawyer will always attack it since it does not fit into the "been there, done that" niche of DL.
Why not change the robe colors to fit one's campaign in particular ? Why not slay Mina ? Why not lessen the degree to which the gods interact in the human's lives(While still maintaining the canon gods) ? After all, without daring to take such steps the world remains the same. The same story gets told over, and over again(Hence mad wars, and the gods end up leaving a third time
). Basically the DL world will grow old and stale w/o innovation.One of the best DragonLance campaigns I have read about here is the one being run by Cam Banks. This is due to the fact that he dares to go beyond what the "official" stance. Although we have disagreed on other things, I "do" commend him on his creativity, and writing skill.
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This is a silly discussion. But whatever. I guess it was just a matter of time until the DL Fashion Police arrived.
If not being able to get beyond a cleric of Mishakal wearing white (or anything other than blue, for that matter) is not unimaginative, then I dunno what is.
This is a silly discussion. But whatever. I guess it was just a matter of time until the DL Fashion Police arrived.
Lord forbid that one should actually do something other than what is written/or allowed in "official" DL products(Gaming products, novels, etc). Doing such a thing may be cause for stoning.
~~~
One of the best DragonLance campaigns I have read about here is the one being run by Cam Banks. This is due to the fact that he dares to go beyond what the "official" stance. Although we have disagreed on other things, I "do" commend him on his creativity, and writing skill.
I just don't have players like the ones you're mentioning above. I have good players. They actually want to play. You'd be amazed at how much difference it makes when your players want to play.
Cheers,
Cam
Lord forbid that one should actually do something other than what is written/or allowed in "official" DL products(Gaming products, novels, etc). Doing such a thing may be cause for stoning.
Whatever. Look, I at least gave my reasons for why I thought it was important that clerics wear their colors...especially in the current climate of the gods trying to attract new followers.
I do not understand why it is impossible for people to have differing opinions on this board without SOMEBODY getting offended.
Well...when you call me "unimaginantive" because I like idea of the clerics having specific colors for their vestments...and I give reasons for why I think it's important, then yes I'm going to be offended.
I dont recall Shalafi calling you unimaginative.
I didn't mean him...that was a generic "you."