Also, what is the appeal of this deity (?) to humans, specifically the ones that follow it in the Verbobonc/Dyvers region. And at what point did Zuggtmoy become involved in the cult? Was it before or after the events of Against the Giants, where we see the first Temples of the Elder Elemental Eye? Or was she involved all along?
Is there any connection between the Elder Eye and Juiblex, who bear at least a passing similarity to each other, which might explain Zuggtmoy's ability to masquerade as the Elder Elemental God? Is there a possibility that Juiblex once was the Elder Elemental God, and has since fallen into demonhood? I hate to mention Forgotten Realms material here, but their Drow deity Ghaunadaur greatly resembles both Juiblex and the Elder Elemental God...
Finally, what connection is there be between the evil Elementals, a Demon of Fungi and Slime, and a horrible H.P. Lovecraftian being that manifests out of its altar with tentacles and an eye that can kill or drive people mad? What's the common thread?
The Elder Elemental God (or Eye, as I've seen it called) is clearly an ancient, ancient faith. The description of the derelict temple in G1 makes it pretty plain that the worship of this Thing has gone back a long time (perhaps even pre-human?). I don't think the Eye is Juiblex - Juiblex is a blob-creature, whereas the EEG seems to symbolize annihilation and entropy. He might be Tharizdun, but that also seems unlikely - the Eye seems to be 'asleep' or ignoring humanity (lashing out irritably when disturbed), rather than being imprisoned.
Any efforts to connect the ToEE with the EEG cult, or imply that they are one, apparently were made by authors who presumed that the common word 'elemental' meant that the religions were identical. I don't even think the word 'elemental' in EEG refers to the four classic elements, but to something predating them - the elder element... possibly firmament, void, ether? Dunno.
You might want to ask this question on Monte Cook's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil forums. There are a dozens who would be more than happy to give you an answer.
The appeal with most CE powers is probably personal gain primarily, and to a lesser extent, with the higher ups, a devotion to the cause of the diety.
Zuggtmoy did not "get involved" with the cult of the EEG. She created the cult of EE because it had a broader appeal than fungi. They are two seperate cults.
There is a problem with the timeline, so it is hard to pinpoint exactly when Zuggtmoy and Iuz concieved the cult. Regardless, it was before the events in the GD series. My personal solution is that the pair concieved the ToEE before Iuz was captured by Zagyg. When he was imprisoned, the location of the Orb was unknown to Zuggtmoy. Later, the Orb was found by her followers, and she proceeded with the plan alone.
No known connection between the EEG and Juiblex.
No, Juiblex was not the EEG.
There is no one connection. Zuggtmoy was not a part of the cult of the EEG, or was she attempting to pose as it. If there is a connection, she is not aware of it. She created her cult of EE on the advise of her clerics. Perhaps some of her clerics were actually followers of the EEG, and the loaction of the ToEE, and the elemental theme were chosen with this ulterior motive in mind.
Scott
Scott
Scotty, can you plz link to the interview where gygax explains all of this clear as day?
That would put more closure on the topic.
There have always been 2 schools of thought on this subject and after reading the interview, it comes down to if you want to roll with the original intentions in regards to the EEG, or with what was facilitated afterwards due to the lack of knowledge pertaining to those original intentions.
"Thus spake Gary Gygax" Pages 3-11
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/canonfire/OJ_12.pdf
The Temple series was originally supposed to be related to the GD series, the EEG, the Eye, Lolth, etc. In the first version of the Temple there was no Zuggtmoy; Lolth was going to be the Temple’s demon. At the end of D3, in the Fane of Lolth, the party can find an egg; in the egg is a cube (square), sphere (circle), pyramid (triangle), and an eight-pointed star. Sound familiar?
Gary had to rewrite his version of the Temple after the release of Q1, but he never got to finish it. FM used a combination of EGG’s original notes, updated notes, and his own imagination. On top of that, the editing was horrible. The version released is very different than the Temple as EGG envisioned it. Some of the material in the released version comes from this original period, and should have been cut from the reworked version. FM had to guess on the meaning of some of the material, because bits were included in Gary’s notes, but because he didn’t get to finish the material, he never got to fully explain his ideas.
Scott
I'm sure you can understand why I had thought you read it. Check it out, a good read.
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/canonfire/OJ_12.pdf
Scott
1. EEG and Tharizdun are not the same deity.
2. There is not one, but many temples all along the Flanaess and Oerth.
3. Hyboria, aeons ago, before it was covered by ice, was the origin of all places. The younger gods, lead by Rao and Hextor, rebelled against their father, the *eye*, obviously a paladin of Tharizdun and killed him. When he died, Hyboria's civilisation was destroyed or migrated to the south, where the surviving gods had created new lands...
(Will explain it better in Kul'gobsula, which now comes to be a sum of all my Greyhawk experiences...)
I'm also setting it just before Robilar gets there. Robilar will smash down the front door whilst the Pc's are in the temple and do his own thing, meanwhile when the Pc's decide to head back for supplies will notice the trail of destruction through the temple aswell as the smashed door. Robilar will free Lolth (not Zuggtmoy) setting up the G-D series.
Also I'm considering having one of the Pc's connected to Thrommel in some way, possibly as a previous man-at-arms or childhood friend, as an adventure hook to explore the ruins/Emridy meadows area.
I'm not sure but was Thrommel kidnapped during the battle of Emridy Meadows or was it a seperate occasion (and what year was it) i think it was 570 but cant recall without my books.
The Battle of Emridy Meadows was in 569 CY. Thrommel was kidnapped 4 years later in 573 CY.
Remember that Lolth wasn't behind the events in the GD series, the EEG was, and Eclavdra and her followers were oposed to Lolth, so releasing her won't really play a big part in the GD series, unless you plan on including her as part of your homebrew stuff.
Once when I ran the ToEE I had Robilar show up. When the party was returning to the Temple the encountered Quij waiting with Robilar's flying carpet. Next they found the doors off the hinges, and later they encountered Robilar inside the dungeon.
Scott
And using Lolth is a perfect run into the GDQ mods.
IIRC in Gary's original Greyhawk campaign Thrommel was captured by the Scarlet Brotherhood with the backing of Nyrond! That he ended up in the TOEE raises many interesting questions.
It has been proposed that some members of the Scarlet Brotherhood worship Tharizdun. Coincidentally, the novelization of ToE (yes, I know, it's not the most credible source) includes an agent of the Scarlet Brotherhood as one of Lareth's men at the Moathouse.
II. A ToEE novel?! What? Where? By whom?
I. The offshot of the Scarlet Brotherhood worship the EEG is called the Black Brotherhood, I believe and was officialy introduced in the LGG. (South of the Flanaess being a setting I never adventured, so don't exactly know...)
II. A ToEE novel?! What? Where? By whom?
Yes, I saw that. In fact, I ran a campaign once where the Scarlet Brotherhood emphasized physical perfection by having monks among its agents of rogues and assasing while the Black Brotherhood relied on psionics with the inclusion of Psychic Rogues and Psychic Assasins from WotC's Mind's Eye articles. I set this up as part of a Psionic RttToEE adventure.
Temple of Elemental Evil was written by Thomas M. Reid.
*Gotta better learn for my exams...*Do you have an idea if there is more info on the Black Brotherhood from any source? *Would be tempting to use it in a game...*
Black Brotherhood [ORG]
I1 - 22
LGG - 96,98,102
I've thought about replacing Zuggtmoy with Lolth, but I haven't had the opportunity yet.
The Battle of Emridy Meadows was in 569 CY. Thrommel was kidnapped 4 years later in 573 CY.
Remember that Lolth wasn't behind the events in the GD series, the EEG was, and Eclavdra and her followers were oposed to Lolth, so releasing her won't really play a big part in the GD series, unless you plan on including her as part of your homebrew stuff.
Once when I ran the ToEE I had Robilar show up. When the party was returning to the Temple the encountered Quij waiting with Robilar's flying carpet. Next they found the doors off the hinges, and later they encountered Robilar inside the dungeon.
Scott
How does this sound... ...The Pc's are in the City of Greyhawk 573cy, at the same time, The city is celebrating the 4th anniversery of the Battle of Emridy Meadows with festivities and the like, Prince Thrommel and some other Heroes are there for diplomatic purposes (one of the Pc's may even be part of Thrommels guard or entourage) in addition to celebrate the occasion.
That night Thrommel is Kidnapped in his sleep (perhaps whilst the Pc guard is on watch at his door) whilst staying at the golden phoenix (again if i made a mistake correct me as i'm currently on a warship with no books to refer to)
The Pc's being somehow connected/responsible in part for Thrommels disappearance are charged with his rescue. i'll draw out the travel to hommlet so they do some good deeds along the way and have the pc's around 3rd level by the time they reach the town, meaning i can make full use of the adventure's "monster regrouping" idea's presented in the module.
As the Pc's progress throught the temple they discover Thrommel (if they can find him of course, otherwise they'll be led on to the following series thinking Thrommel was taken further on >=). Robilar releases Lolth and gets the heck out of there once he realises what he's done.
Remember that Lolth wasn't behind the events in the GD series, the EEG was, and Eclavdra and her followers were oposed to Lolth, so releasing her won't really play a big part in the GD series,
Scott
The Release of Lolth could be perfect for this. Being that Lolth is a demi-god/demoness and that she is much smarter than any mere mortal (Eclavdra). She is actually using Eclavdra as a tool for developing/recruiting a following of EEG and ultimately leading to Lolths release from the ToEE.
...This takes care in part of T1-4 now dubbed part 1 "The release of Lolth"...
Now Eclavdra, still unawares of the consequences her actions have caused, begins the Invasion of Sterich using the giants as the front of the attack and keeping the drow out of public eye. This in effect is what Lolth intended, now Istivin is hers for the taking and the city begins to gather a purplish haze many think is smoke from the burning villages but is infact the beginning of Istivins descent into the Demonwebs.
Thats all i can think of at the moment as i cant recall much about the Descent series anymore.
btw thanks for the tips guys :D
Man i love thinking up this stuff.
The SB can also be used to give the Pc's a break from the main campaign or can give me a backup campaign should they start to lose their way in the GD series.
Now if could only think of some more plots to throw into the Giant series.
“573 CY Scarlet Brotherhood first reported; Prince of Furyondy/Provost of Veluna kidnapped.”
The same line was also misinterpreted into the Prince of Furyondy and the Provost of Veluna being two separate individuals. They are not, and the SB was never intended to be behind Thrommel’s kidnapping. It was Iuz.
Also, Robilar and Zuggtmoy became allies after he released her. Sometime after the Temple adventure, Robilar acquired the evil Orb of Might, and delivered it to a temple of Zuggtmoy across the eastern ocean. If you use Lolth, you might want to consider the possibilities of having this alliance develop with her instead of Zuggtmoy.
Scott
The other day one of my players asked me the following, condensed, question: "Who are we really fighting here? Iuz? Zuggtmoy? The Evil Elemental Princes? A god called the Elder Elemental Eye? Tharizdun? What?" And while I gave him a answer that essentially boiled down to "you'll see," I realized that I still had no idea what was really going on with the cult. Who's running it? Where are they based? Who is providing their clerics with clerical powers? What are their goals? Who do the cult members recognize as their leaders, and why?
Let's sum up what we've gathered so far: Iuz and Zuggtmoy's involvement in the TOEE was purely circumstanial, a trick to get both Drow and humans to worship the demon queen of fungi, and Juiblex (despite what I maintain are some distinct similarities) is not the Elder Elemental God. However, The Evil Elemental princes Yan-Ci-Bin, Imix, etc. are possibly related, though exactly how is anyone's guess. Were they servants of the EEG? Is the worship of Elemental Evil and the worship of the Elder Elemental Eye the same thing, or are they two similar but not identical twins? Did one grow out of the other?
While Monte Cook has clearly made it his intention to turn the EEG into Tharizdun, that doesn't seem to be in conjunction with the earlier intention of the cult of elemental evil. And I guess that's what I'm really wondering about: The original intention of the Temple plot line, that seemed to begin in the Giants series with the Elder Elemental Eye temples there.
Thrommel might have been kidnapped when the scarlet brotherhood first appeared, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they kidnapped him. (In my opinion it was Mordenkainen, but that's just my own take on the matter) And why would Iuz kidnap him anyway? Why not just kill him? Did he become a vampire, as monte cook suggests in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil?
As a side note, I have to say that I was tickled to see the Elder Elemental Eye cult still alive and kicking in the most recent Dungeon magazine. But I find it interesting that most of the Drow that the people of the upper flanaess are likely to meet are members of this cult? They've had the most dealings with the outside world... My players don't even know about Lolth, so they assume that all Drow worship Elemental Evil. Interesting, don't you think?
From Jason's index (you should really get it Raph!):
Black Brotherhood [ORG]
I1 - 22
LGG - 96,98,102
*Browsing my computer* Are you referring to that large PDF called the *Greyhawk Encyclopedia*? *Looks again* ...yepp, there I find the same info you just presented...
Should have used it before...BTW, do you know what kind of information is given in I1?
*I certainly wonder that the Black Brotherhood hook was apparently discontinued...* Would have been interesting to see how a *Brotherhood War* developed...
Thrommel might have been kidnapped when the scarlet brotherhood first appeared, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they kidnapped him. (In my opinion it was Mordenkainen, but that's just my own take on the matter) And why would Iuz kidnap him anyway? Why not just kill him? Did he become a vampire, as monte cook suggests in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil?
I bet some upcoming LG adventure in Verbobonc/Veluna will deal with the battle of the vampire prince against his half - elven successor... *Do not know too much about that region...*
---------------------------------------------------
Maybe completely off-topic: Could it be that Vecna and his Flan also worshipped the EEG?
BTW, do you know what kind of information is given in I1?
If I remember correctly, there was an adventure hook stating that the Black Brotherhood was forming an alliance with the yuan ti of the lost city to help the latter increase their sphere of influence (thus disrupting several nearby nations)If Iuz kidnapped Thrommel, not the SB, i may just have the SB as a scapegoat for Iuz, a red herring to throw the Pc's off the trail. Mind you, i'm not trying to replay ToEE using the original time-line, i'm beginning my campaign at this point so i can use the original time-line as a guiding point.
Using existing heroes doing what they originally did (like Robilar smashing the doors to the Temple) is a brilliant way of making the world seem alive. This should make my "greyhawk ignorant" players a little more interested in the world they adventure and they cant refer to published material like Forgotton Realms.
i just realised i'm rambling again...
If Lolth had little/nothing to do with the Giant series how did the Queen series link up with the earlier mods?
If Iuz kidnapped Thrommel, not the SB, i may just have the SB as a scapegoat for Iuz, a red herring to throw the Pc's off the trail. Mind you, i'm not trying to replay ToEE using the original time-line, i'm beginning my campaign at this point so i can use the original time-line as a guiding point.
Using existing heroes doing what they originally did (like Robilar smashing the doors to the Temple) is a brilliant way of making the world seem alive. This should make my "greyhawk ignorant" players a little more interested in the world they adventure and they cant refer to published material like Forgotton Realms.
i just realised i'm rambling again...
Actually, in that same OJ #12, Gary Gygax had stated that the Scarlet Brotherhood DID kidnap Thrommel under the employ of Nyrond.
The Evil Elemental Princes have no part in this story.
The EEG and the cult of EE started out as part of a related story, but the relationship was dropped, so it should be ignored unless you want to do some heavy revamping of the adventure.
Scott
What elemental branch of the Temple did Lareth belong to within the hierarchy of the Temple? I always sort of assumed that Lareth had been a member of Water Temple, seeing as he was stationed outside the Temple and Water Temple was (supposedly) the most powerful Temple when that module took place. Thus, only Water Temple would be able to spare forces to begin a secondary base of operations...
A good follow up question: What Temple did Falrinth and Smigmal belong to? Falrinth's involvement with Rannos Davl and Gremag, and Smigmal's position as the head of the North Eastern tower forces leads me to believe that they are members of the Greater Temple, but what Temple did they work their way up through to get there? We know that Barkinar was the former high priest of Earth Temple, but we don't know Deggum or Senshock's affiliation... I would have to assume at least one of them was a member of Water Temple if Water Temple has so much influence... Though it is possible that Senshock was a former wizard in the employ of Fire Temple, seeing as that was the Temple in ascendance when the Battle of Emridy meadows took place, and Senshock is a survivor of that battle...
What do you think guys?
Also, I'd say don't use the Return to adventure. It just disregards so much previous material.
Scott
Anyone interested can yahoo me for real details
That's the gist of this new question.
As for the Living Greyhawk campagin... I'd love to know what's been going on there, but until they release those modules we'll never know!
The Black Brotherhood in I1 is an ill-defined group of wizards and priests mentioned soley as a way to inspire the DM's imagination if he or she wishes to expand the module, the module istelf makes no mention of any ties to the Scarlet Brotherhood. Erik Mona remembered the name, and used it as a tharzy worshiping splinter group of the SB when writing those parts of the LGG, as part of an effort to "tie up loose ends" I believe.
This is good to know, as I'm planning on having a plethora of arcane casters as members of the cult of Tharizdun with the preists providing divine guidance. There's a large number of arcane prestige classes that I've wanted to use, too, such as the Alienist, the Entropomancer, and the Elemental Savant.
The Black Brotherhood in I1 is an ill-defined group of wizards and priests mentioned soley as a way to inspire the DM's imagination if he or she wishes to expand the module, the module istelf makes no mention of any ties to the Scarlet Brotherhood. Erik Mona remembered the name, and used it as a tharzy worshiping splinter group of the SB when writing those parts of the LGG, as part of an effort to "tie up loose ends" I believe.
Thank you!
Will look to insert them into my current campaign! (er... campaign concept...)