Minotaurs a 0 ECL????? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Minotaurs a 0 ECL?????

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 19, 2005 10:23:04 In the main book I think there is a major typo in the racial discription. Minotaurs despite being massively large and powerful creatures with some good racial abilities beyond the norm seem a bit too powerful for their ECL raiting of 0. They get lots of extra skill bonuses, can take the scent feat, and that headbutt attack is the major unbalancing factor. Not only does the character get his normal attacks, he can attack without penalty and headbutt in the same turn (or do a full headbutt without penalty). So efficently a minotaur gets a full attack action and a headbutt (at a -5 to hit but still) in the same round. Sounds too powerful for an ECL 0 critter.

The only thing they didn't make em is large sized. Minotaurs are like 7.5 feet or more and huge in bulk, but don't count as large sized creatures.
#2
Dragonhelm
Jan 19, 2005 10:47:36 It's not a typo.

And large size begins at 8 feet. Minotaurs are generally 7-8 feet tall, which is at the upper end of the medium size category. You might check out the Hulkish Brute feat in the DLCS for a nifty option, though.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jan 23, 2005 10:10:21 I've always thought they were a bit overpowered for a ECL 0 Medium sized creature. In my campaign I use the MM minotaur stats, (Large creature, +8 STR, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha, etc.) without the Natural Cunning and Scent special qualities and reduce their natural armor to +2, as in the DLCS, and give them a ECL 2.
#4
cunning_gnome
Jan 23, 2005 10:53:43 I think they are fine they have enough penalties with the -2dex int cha, i admit they are close to a level adj but if they had one would they be worth taking?
#5
zombiegleemax
Jan 24, 2005 8:17:31 They shoulden't be taken for PC's! They're E-V-I-L!

Dragonlance is a Heroic game, playing as a Black Robe Mage, Knight of Nekara, Minotaur, Dark Dwarf, Full Ogre or other evil races dosen't work! Evil fights for evil, that truth is absolute.
#6
jonesy
Jan 24, 2005 9:11:26
They shoulden't be taken for PC's! They're E-V-I-L!

Dragonlance is a Heroic game, playing as a Black Robe Mage, Knight of Nekara, Minotaur, Dark Dwarf, Full Ogre or other evil races dosen't work! Evil fights for evil, that truth is absolute.

Perhaps, but evil also turns in upon itself so evil fights evil too.

And who says that every minotaur, dark knight or even ogre is evil? Or that they can't be heroic in their own way? Look at Dalamar, Steel, Kaz, Tarn (okay so he's only half dark) or Maldred.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jan 24, 2005 9:19:11 And you call it HEROIC to brutalize people with Evil laws? Put people into slavery? Force people to serve the Gods of Evil rather than allowing them the choice on their own? How do you consider being "EVIL" heroic? The Minotaurs as a race worship an Evil God, enslave and brutalize people, slaughter each other in area combat (along with many innocent people for training pratice). The Minotaurs are born of Evil, and Evil they shall always be. If someone were to play a minotaur in my games, they would have to come up with a GOOD reason for them to be there. Not to mention that you've got an LOT of Elves who hate the minotaurs. The Dark Knights may have occupied Silvanesti, but the Minotaurs cast them out of their homes, and enslaved all those they captured and didn't execute in a brutal fashion. I think the Minotaurs are on the top of the "Gruge List" of a lot of species.
#8
jonesy
Jan 24, 2005 9:23:34 What the heck are you talking about? I didn't say anything about 'the minotaurs as a race blah blah' or anything like that.

PCs are by default extraordinary characters when compared to the general populace. Just because, for instance, most of the minotaurs might be 'evil', it doesn't mean that you can't play one like he wasn't.
#9
true_blue
Jan 24, 2005 10:07:06 haha Auria22 you'd hate my campaigns then. Evil seems to be the premiere choice for my players. They literally can do whatever they want. It makes interesting gaming sessions to say the least.

I guess I've never seen the problem with having PC's who were evil. My players go around and do evil things, while collecting loot, but always look out for eachother. But there's no mistaking they are evil when they buy slaves, pickpocket beggers, or backstab NPC's.

As long as they work together and dont fight amongst themselves, I care little what they do in the Dragonlance world. It also actually adds more things for them to fight. Not only do they still **** off other evil people, but they have to contend with Good people also. Like Knights of Solamnia who decide to wipe their existances off the face of Krynn, for the greater good of coure :D

What can I say.. seeing Black Robes and Sivaks(which I have one of each in my party now) as PC's doesnt really bother me. I've seen people who want to play D&D and play heroic campaigns and I think thats great. If thats what you want to play..good for you, whatever makes it enjoyable. But... evil can adventure too And its actually pretty fun when you literally can do whatever you feel like it. I'm not a big fan of seeing people who think playing evil is just *sooo* wrong. Its a fantasy game.. have fun with it.
#10
Nived
Jan 24, 2005 10:35:12 Auria if you, in your narrow minded view, think that ALL MINOTAUR ARE EVIL AND SHOULD NEVER BE HEROES... then I think I should warn you never to read The Legend of Huma, Kaz the Minotaur, Land of the Minotaur, Middle of Nowhere, or The Players of Gilean. Because they'd be 'wrong' in your eyes. Nevermind that Legend of Huma was a New York Times bestseler and one of the cornerstones of Dragonlance, nevermind that many of these are fan favorites, and nevermind that I personally loved each and every one. They're wrong, because Minotaur can't be heroes appearently.

While we're on the subject you might want to avoid "Vinus Solamnus" which is probably my favorite stand alone Dragonlance novel... because one of the best friends of the founder of the Solamnic Knighthood is a half-ogre cleric of Paladine... but of course this is wrong because ogre are evil right? Titus rocks btw...

You seem to fail to understand one of the core concepts of Dragonlance. Yes, elves are generally good and minotaur are generally evil. HOWEVER every mortal on krynn has free will, and can choose their path, for some its much easier than others. Its rare to see a evil elf, but it happens (Dalamar the Dark, Feal-Thas the White Dragon Highlord), and its rare to see a good minotaur, but it happens (Kaz, Khorr).
#11
zombiegleemax
Jan 24, 2005 22:11:29 Actually, if I'm not mistaken (although I may be), the most common alignment for minotaurs is LE, but the second most-common is LG. Or if it's not, it's definately third. There's at least one entire clan of minotaurs that are good (the Kaziganthi, I believe), plus plenty of others. THe principle god may be Sargas, but Kiri-Jolith is their secend god, and he's LG.

Anyway, ever actually *READ* a Dragonlance book?! WOuld you call every elf on Krynn *GOOD*?! Hell no! Plenty of them are Neutral! Mostly politicians, at least. Of course, *ALL* elven wizards have to be White Robes, and *ALL* clerics have to be of good dieities (except for Chislev, it seems. I guess they have an understanding with her).

Besides, one of the principle themes of Dragonlance is that nobody is forced to be anything. There are evil elves. There are good Minotaurs. There are good, or at least neutral, chromatic dragons. Good redeems its own, and nobody can be created evil.
#12
zombiegleemax
Jan 25, 2005 9:47:28 Sorry. Double post.
#13
zombiegleemax
Jan 25, 2005 9:52:48
Actually, if I'm not mistaken (although I may be), the most common alignment for minotaurs is LE, but the second most-common is LG. Or if it's not, it's definately third. There's at least one entire clan of minotaurs that are good (the Kaziganthi, I believe), plus plenty of others. THe principle god may be Sargas, but Kiri-Jolith is their secend god, and he's LG.

Minotaurs are LE, then LN, then LG, then NE i think. Strongly lawful and moderately evil.

Auria, i have a NG Minotaur Cleric of Kiri-Jolith in my game... but i guess that's too anti-MINOTAURS ARE EVIL HOW CAN YOU HAVE EVIL PCS. I'm not saying that all minotaurs are good. My PCs have fought evil minotaurs. But some can be and are good.

Incidently, evil isn't always pure black. The NPC my PCS interact with most is a LE Black-Robed wizard who while evil, isn't destructive and violent, just ruthless.

Anyway, to get back on topic, i think Minotaurs are top of 0 ECL, and that if you made them +1 ECL, they would be so underpowered that nobody, ever, not even many NPCs, would be a Minotaur. I mean, you could be a human instead and get skill points, the feat, and an extra level. I understand that every campaign or two you'll have a minotaur PC, but every campaign or two you'll have a human PC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 19, 2005 10:23:04	In the main book I think there is a major typo in the racial discription. Minotaurs despite being massively large and powerful creatures with some good racial abilities beyond the norm seem a bit too powerful for their ECL raiting of 0. They get lots of extra skill bonuses, can take the scent feat, and that headbutt attack is the major unbalancing factor. Not only does the character get his normal attacks, he can attack without penalty and headbutt in the same turn (or do a full headbutt without penalty). So efficently a minotaur gets a full attack action and a headbutt (at a -5 to hit but still) in the same round. Sounds too powerful for an ECL 0 critter. The only thing they didn't make em is large sized. Minotaurs are like 7.5 feet or more and huge in bulk, but don't count as large sized creatures.
#2 Dragonhelm Jan 19, 2005 10:47:36	It's not a typo. And large size begins at 8 feet. Minotaurs are generally 7-8 feet tall, which is at the upper end of the medium size category. You might check out the Hulkish Brute feat in the DLCS for a nifty option, though.
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 23, 2005 10:10:21	I've always thought they were a bit overpowered for a ECL 0 Medium sized creature. In my campaign I use the MM minotaur stats, (Large creature, +8 STR, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha, etc.) without the Natural Cunning and Scent special qualities and reduce their natural armor to +2, as in the DLCS, and give them a ECL 2.
#4 cunning_gnome Jan 23, 2005 10:53:43	I think they are fine they have enough penalties with the -2dex int cha, i admit they are close to a level adj but if they had one would they be worth taking?
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2005 8:17:31	They shoulden't be taken for PC's! They're E-V-I-L! Dragonlance is a Heroic game, playing as a Black Robe Mage, Knight of Nekara, Minotaur, Dark Dwarf, Full Ogre or other evil races dosen't work! Evil fights for evil, that truth is absolute.
#6 jonesy Jan 24, 2005 9:11:26	They shoulden't be taken for PC's! They're E-V-I-L! Dragonlance is a Heroic game, playing as a Black Robe Mage, Knight of Nekara, Minotaur, Dark Dwarf, Full Ogre or other evil races dosen't work! Evil fights for evil, that truth is absolute. Perhaps, but evil also turns in upon itself so evil fights evil too. And who says that every minotaur, dark knight or even ogre is evil? Or that they can't be heroic in their own way? Look at Dalamar, Steel, Kaz, Tarn (okay so he's only half dark) or Maldred.
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2005 9:19:11	And you call it HEROIC to brutalize people with Evil laws? Put people into slavery? Force people to serve the Gods of Evil rather than allowing them the choice on their own? How do you consider being "EVIL" heroic? The Minotaurs as a race worship an Evil God, enslave and brutalize people, slaughter each other in area combat (along with many innocent people for training pratice). The Minotaurs are born of Evil, and Evil they shall always be. If someone were to play a minotaur in my games, they would have to come up with a GOOD reason for them to be there. Not to mention that you've got an LOT of Elves who hate the minotaurs. The Dark Knights may have occupied Silvanesti, but the Minotaurs cast them out of their homes, and enslaved all those they captured and didn't execute in a brutal fashion. I think the Minotaurs are on the top of the "Gruge List" of a lot of species.
#8 jonesy Jan 24, 2005 9:23:34	What the heck are you talking about? I didn't say anything about 'the minotaurs as a race blah blah' or anything like that. PCs are by default extraordinary characters when compared to the general populace. Just because, for instance, most of the minotaurs might be 'evil', it doesn't mean that you can't play one like he wasn't.
#9 true_blue Jan 24, 2005 10:07:06	haha Auria22 you'd hate my campaigns then. Evil seems to be the premiere choice for my players. They literally can do whatever they want. It makes interesting gaming sessions to say the least. I guess I've never seen the problem with having PC's who were evil. My players go around and do evil things, while collecting loot, but always look out for eachother. But there's no mistaking they are evil when they buy slaves, pickpocket beggers, or backstab NPC's. As long as they work together and dont fight amongst themselves, I care little what they do in the Dragonlance world. It also actually adds more things for them to fight. Not only do they still **** off other evil people, but they have to contend with Good people also. Like Knights of Solamnia who decide to wipe their existances off the face of Krynn, for the greater good of coure :D What can I say.. seeing Black Robes and Sivaks(which I have one of each in my party now) as PC's doesnt really bother me. I've seen people who want to play D&D and play heroic campaigns and I think thats great. If thats what you want to play..good for you, whatever makes it enjoyable. But... evil can adventure too And its actually pretty fun when you literally can do whatever you feel like it. I'm not a big fan of seeing people who think playing evil is just sooo wrong. Its a fantasy game.. have fun with it.
#10 Nived Jan 24, 2005 10:35:12	Auria if you, in your narrow minded view, think that ALL MINOTAUR ARE EVIL AND SHOULD NEVER BE HEROES... then I think I should warn you never to read The Legend of Huma, Kaz the Minotaur, Land of the Minotaur, Middle of Nowhere, or The Players of Gilean. Because they'd be 'wrong' in your eyes. Nevermind that Legend of Huma was a New York Times bestseler and one of the cornerstones of Dragonlance, nevermind that many of these are fan favorites, and nevermind that I personally loved each and every one. They're wrong, because Minotaur can't be heroes appearently. While we're on the subject you might want to avoid "Vinus Solamnus" which is probably my favorite stand alone Dragonlance novel... because one of the best friends of the founder of the Solamnic Knighthood is a half-ogre cleric of Paladine... but of course this is wrong because ogre are evil right? Titus rocks btw... You seem to fail to understand one of the core concepts of Dragonlance. Yes, elves are generally good and minotaur are generally evil. HOWEVER every mortal on krynn has free will, and can choose their path, for some its much easier than others. Its rare to see a evil elf, but it happens (Dalamar the Dark, Feal-Thas the White Dragon Highlord), and its rare to see a good minotaur, but it happens (Kaz, Khorr).
#11 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2005 22:11:29	Actually, if I'm not mistaken (although I may be), the most common alignment for minotaurs is LE, but the second most-common is LG. Or if it's not, it's definately third. There's at least one entire clan of minotaurs that are good (the Kaziganthi, I believe), plus plenty of others. THe principle god may be Sargas, but Kiri-Jolith is their secend god, and he's LG. Anyway, ever actually READ a Dragonlance book?! WOuld you call every elf on Krynn GOOD?! Hell no! Plenty of them are Neutral! Mostly politicians, at least. Of course, ALL elven wizards have to be White Robes, and ALL clerics have to be of good dieities (except for Chislev, it seems. I guess they have an understanding with her). Besides, one of the principle themes of Dragonlance is that nobody is forced to be anything. There are evil elves. There are good Minotaurs. There are good, or at least neutral, chromatic dragons. Good redeems its own, and nobody can be created evil.
#12 zombiegleemax Jan 25, 2005 9:47:28	Sorry. Double post.
#13 zombiegleemax Jan 25, 2005 9:52:48	Actually, if I'm not mistaken (although I may be), the most common alignment for minotaurs is LE, but the second most-common is LG. Or if it's not, it's definately third. There's at least one entire clan of minotaurs that are good (the Kaziganthi, I believe), plus plenty of others. THe principle god may be Sargas, but Kiri-Jolith is their secend god, and he's LG. Minotaurs are LE, then LN, then LG, then NE i think. Strongly lawful and moderately evil. Auria, i have a NG Minotaur Cleric of Kiri-Jolith in my game... but i guess that's too anti-MINOTAURS ARE EVIL HOW CAN YOU HAVE EVIL PCS. I'm not saying that all minotaurs are good. My PCs have fought evil minotaurs. But some can be and are good. Incidently, evil isn't always pure black. The NPC my PCS interact with most is a LE Black-Robed wizard who while evil, isn't destructive and violent, just ruthless. Anyway, to get back on topic, i think Minotaurs are top of 0 ECL, and that if you made them +1 ECL, they would be so underpowered that nobody, ever, not even many NPCs, would be a Minotaur. I mean, you could be a human instead and get skill points, the feat, and an extra level. I understand that every campaign or two you'll have a minotaur PC, but every campaign or two you'll have a human PC.