Order Sorcerer - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Order Sorcerer

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 20, 2005 1:01:39 I'm interested if it ever came up that a sorcerer tried to become (in name if not in class) a wizard of high sorcery. Especially since i am playing one who has done just that, to the best of his ability. He dosen't have the actual prestige class, he is Mage of the Arcane Order, and his order is the towers/order of high sorcery. Incidenally, he is neutral, making him a red robed "Mage", and with Lunatari's attitute twoard the ability's of sorcerer's I can see where this makes perfect sense, since he is trying to simply add his magic to "the magic." I was mostly curious to see what other people thought about this. Also, he is now relativley powerful, so him suddenly becoming a renegade at this point would be most... against the way the character lives his life, since he has been with the order since day one and is very devoted to "the magic" and to Lunatari's teachings.

Also, he has taken the test of high sorcery, ect., so in roleplaying terms, he is actually a red robed mage, even though he is not the prestige class. Any thoughts would be welcomed.
#2
ferratus
Jan 20, 2005 10:26:26 It depends on the wider context.

For us WotL buffs, a popular option is just make sorcerers WoHS "warmages" who concentrate on fewer (mostly evocation) spells, and learning them well enough that they can cast them over and over again.

For the 5th Age people, where sorcery and wizardry are two different things (or not... its very confused and is being contradicted all the time) then there are rules for something called "epiphany" where sorcerers simply swap out their levels for wizard. They have to do this before they can take levels of the WoHS prestige class or join the WoHS order.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jan 20, 2005 22:42:42 erm, i kinda started right after Cataclysm and got shot through time to later in the WoTL time period; the gods are still missing, but should return soon. So is that to say that to be part of the order i would have to stop being a sorcerer altogether? Is this WoHS "Warmage" the PrC or is it just what you have been claiming sorcerers allied with the towers to be?
#4
cam_banks
Jan 20, 2005 23:24:14
erm, i kinda started right after Cataclysm and got shot through time to later in the WoTL time period; the gods are still missing, but should return soon. So is that to say that to be part of the order i would have to stop being a sorcerer altogether? Is this WoHS "Warmage" the PrC or is it just what you have been claiming sorcerers allied with the towers to be?

Well, officially you can't be a sorcerer at all in either of those time periods. Sorcerers first appeared thousands of years in Krynn's distant past, then were replaced by wizards. By the time of the Cataclysm there were no sorcerers left, and their magic doesn't operate. It's not until the Chaos War and the release of Chaos from his prison inside the Graygem that sorcerers can once again access primal magic.

Cheers,
CAm
#5
zombiegleemax
Jan 20, 2005 23:37:50 Actually, this is the second time the gods left, that was the post-cataclysm era, right? I THINK it's fifth age/WoTL eras, but I could be wrong because I don't know the full background of Krynn, especially the way they keep changing things.
#6
Mortepierre
Jan 21, 2005 3:53:55 Here, check this URL:

http://www.dl3e.com/reference/river.aspx

It should answer all your questions about "when" your character exists currently.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jan 21, 2005 14:27:22 Sorcerors cannot, Never, ever, under any curcumstances, Never, ever, No way period, join the Orders of high sorcery. To join they would have to stop being sorcerors and start being wizards. This i have gathered from reading ToHS and the DLCS, along with Wizards' Conclave. Sorcerors use primal sorcery, which is alien to the high sorcery of the Wizards. I suspect that Solinari and Nuitari would stop Lunitari from being so foolish as to let a Sorceror join the Orders. Sorry if it's harsh, but i am saying what i read in Wizards' Conclave, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and the Towers of High Sorcery book.
#8
zombiegleemax
Jan 21, 2005 15:25:03 Sorcerers cannot be WoHS.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jan 21, 2005 16:15:27 "Sorcerors use primal sorcery, which is alien to the high sorcery of the Wizards. I suspect that Solinari and Nuitari would stop Lunitari from being so foolish as to let a Sorceror join the Orders. Sorry if it's harsh, but i am saying what i read in Wizards' Conclave, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and the Towers of High Sorcery book."

This is what I actually sort of expected as a response, so your harshness is nescesarry if i am to get a quality response, I suppose. I figured it made no sense for me to be a full on WoHS, which is why I am (for game purpouses) just a MoTAO. The thing is, as powerful and high strung as the order is, I can't see them not heckeling me and countless other sorcerers on a constant baisis. What im actually proposing is a sorcerer who is allied with the towers, not one who is actually a WoHS, the question is how allied can a sorcerer possibly be? Or is there any way that I can become an OoHS warmage like ferratus was talking about, and just what would that mean? (BTW, thanks for all the help so far, guys)
#10
ferratus
Jan 21, 2005 16:17:48 Yes, I should have been more clear. Using sorcerers as "warmages" was a means of getting the PHB sorcerer class into the WotL era, not the pseudo-wizard sorcerers of the 5th Age.
#11
zombiegleemax
Jan 21, 2005 16:33:26 Mabey it would be best suited to the character if I just had the "epiphany" in roleplaying terms, but converted to that instead of an actual wizard. That would solve all my problems, and i wouldn't have to overhaul the whole character. Does this sound feasible?
#12
ferratus
Jan 21, 2005 16:44:52 Yeah, if you don't want to redesign the character from the ground up (and assuming you are in the 5th Age) you can just say you had an epiphany but not bother to change anything. Sorcerers and Wizards are almost the same anyway. Just spend GP on a spellbook to copy down all the spells you know. Your background of feeling out magic as a sorcerer allows you to know wizardly magic intimately well. Thus you still "remember" them after you cast them.
#13
zombiegleemax
Jan 21, 2005 17:05:59 Great, especially since I have been carrying a Journal/Chronicle of my travels/Spellbook since level 0 (I was a level 0 aristocrat... lol). This has been a pretty big help, so I suppose my char does work, after all, I just have to put a couple of things in place. Joy. Thanks for all the help.
#14
zombiegleemax
Jan 21, 2005 17:10:59
Also, he has taken the test of high sorcery, ect.

Sorry, but WHAT THE UNHOLY GADZOOKS LET HIM PASS THE TEST?!. He has to prove his loyalty to magic... Riiiiight.... His loyalty to high sorcery before all else.... riiiiight.... He needs to be a WIZARD to pass the test. I didn't see this before, but.... Sorry, calming down now.
#15
zombiegleemax
Jan 21, 2005 17:25:50 Ya, I didn't have acess to the ToHS book at the time, so we weren't really sure if it should/could work that way. If anything, I would assume that I had my "epiphany" and become equivalant to a OoHS "warmage" even before or during the test, since otherwise this would make no sense at all. I have always joked that he was a sorcerer that thought he was a wizard (carrying the giant book and all, a very educated, scholarly sorcerer), perhaps he actually has been this whole time just memorising a few spells so well he won't forget them. That's about the only logic I can muster, aside from that legend lore spell I cast on myself. If OoHS warmages cannot take the test, then I really don't know how to explain it. Can they take the test?
#16
zombiegleemax
Jan 21, 2005 17:28:26 If OoHS warmages cannot take the test, then I really don't know how to explain it. Can they take the test?

I ask this assuming that they could not take the prestige class WoHS, but I also assume that many wizards take the test and gain a robe without actually taking levels in the prestige class, since that would make members of all other prestige classes always renegade, and that would make no sense.
#17
cam_banks
Jan 21, 2005 20:41:26 The Test of High Sorcery is a purely role-played event. Sorcerers can't pass the Test, as they are not wizards. Use the rules for "Changing Focus" on page 97 of the DLCS if you're interested in having your character undergo the epiphany and become a wizard before he approaches the Orders for his Test.

Cheers,
Cam
#18
Mortepierre
Jan 22, 2005 3:44:58 I just hope your sorcerer has a decent Int score, because if he doesn't he can kiss good-bye to most of his spells when he "converts"...
#19
cam_banks
Jan 22, 2005 7:53:56
I just hope your sorcerer has a decent Int score, because if he doesn't he can kiss good-bye to most of his spells when he "converts"...

Yes, this was one of the major issues for former wizards in the Age of Mortals. Those that handled the change in magic the easiest were those with a greater degree of self-confidence and strength of character, the better to shape the ambient magic of creation to their wills. The wizards who were purely academic learned much of the theory that developed at the Academy, but never reached the levels of mastery they used to know as wizards.

This worked in reverse, also. Purely instinctive sorcerers failed to achieve success as wizards, unable to comprehend or handle all of the arcane rituals and formulas necessary to master High Sorcery. It isn't just a case of changing your spellcasting method from preparation to spontaneity and back - the two classes are dependent on different ability scores.

Cheers,
Cam
#20
darthsylver
Jan 27, 2005 20:06:43 Originally posted by Thrune
Sorry, but WHAT THE UNHOLY GADZOOKS LET HIM PASS THE TEST?!.. He has to prove his loyalty to magic... Riiiiight.... His loyalty to high sorcery before all else.... riiiiight.... He needs to be a WIZARD to pass the testI didn't see this before, but.... Sorry, calming down now.

Apparently Obvious answer to this question: The DM

Another quote by Thrune
Sorcerors cannot, Never, ever, under any curcumstances, Never, ever, No way period, join the Orders of high sorcery. To join they would have to stop being sorcerors and start being wizards. This i have gathered from reading ToHS and the DLCS, along with Wizards' Conclave. Sorcerors use primal sorcery, which is alien to the high sorcery of the Wizards. I suspect that Solinari and Nuitari would stop Lunitari from being so foolish as to let a Sorceror join the Orders. Sorry if it's harsh, but i am saying what i read in Wizards' Conclave, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and the Towers of High Sorcery book.

Spoiler

Yes a Sorceror can pass the test as is novelized in "Wizard's Conclave", or do you not remember Coryn. Not only did she pass, but she became the head of her order. And then she still used Sorcery after passing the test, which is in fact the only reason she did not become the new head of the conclave. Yes I know that one might say writer's privledge or some other such nonsense. But Coryn's dedication was to "The Magic" as well as the survival of the tower of wayreth. So yes a sorceror can pass the test. (Depending on the circumstances).

Sunlancer13. This is an issue that is solely between you and your DM. If your DM says to revamp your character, sorry but you have to revamp. If he says it is fine the way it is and you are fine with that, and most importantly - if you enjoy playing your character the way it is, then why change it.
#21
raistlinrox
Jan 29, 2005 14:19:55 I actually like the way you have described your character, a sorcerer that has allied himself with the Orders (specifically Lunitari, because she has a greater tolerance of sorcery). Perhaps the reason for not having an epiphany is his Int isn't so great, and would be wasting a bunch of upper-level spell slots. It could work, in secret. It shouldn't be known widely that a sorcerer is helping the Orders, otherwise he might be hunted by a black robe or renegade hunter. Don't know about the whole taking the test, but that's already done so there's nothing to be done about it now. Coryn took her test as a sorcerer, but became a wizard afterwards. Yes she used sorcery afterwards, but by the rules for epiphany, she wouldn't lose her sorcerer levels until she gained 2 levels after her epiphany, so it's possible
#22
B-naa
Jan 29, 2005 15:12:23 I think given that the WoHS are not in the best state at the moment, and have a lot of work to do, before the Orders are rebuilt, that should a sorcerer show interest towards joining the orders, they should let him. The Orders are as curious about them, as the Gods of Magic are.

There is no open war against sorcerers, sure it would mean changes, but even the WoHS cannot stay the same for all time. And if the KoS can change to include magic users then there's absolutely no reason that the WoHS couldn't accept sorcerers, it's in the best interest of magic too. They don't want a rival group of sorcerers popping up, they also don't want random sorcerers going around and doing things that give all magic users a bad name. Far better that they join the Orders where they can keep an eye on them.

Sure they shouldn't have access to the WoHS PrC but I think they should be allowed to join the orders.
#23
zombiegleemax
Jan 29, 2005 16:54:32
I think given that the WoHS are not in the best state at the moment, and have a lot of work to do, before the Orders are rebuilt, that should a sorcerer show interest towards joining the orders, they should let him. The Orders are as curious about them, as the Gods of Magic are.

There is no open war against sorcerers, sure it would mean changes, but even the WoHS cannot stay the same for all time. And if the KoS can change to include magic users then there's absolutely no reason that the WoHS couldn't accept sorcerers, it's in the best interest of magic too. They don't want a rival group of sorcerers popping up, they also don't want random sorcerers going around and doing things that give all magic users a bad name. Far better that they join the Orders where they can keep an eye on them.

Sure they shouldn't have access to the WoHS PrC but I think they should be allowed to join the orders.

Someone is forgetting ToHS and Wizard's Conclave. Sorcery is Anti-Wizardry. I understand that everyone can do thinks however they please, but i state that i am fundamentally opposed to any sort of Sorcerors joining the WoHS and that that can never happen, period, under any curcumstances in my game. For me the feeling i got from it saying that they wern't at war was "Not at war... yet." About your point about the KoS accepting magic users. I will assume you mean Arcane not divine. My answer to this is that the magic users are not KoS, they are a magical auxiliary. About the fact that they don't want Sorcerors going around doing things that give people a bad opinion of all magic users, well, you can't get all of them to join; and some of the ones that won't join will do the things anyway. It's basicialy hopeless the way i see it for them to expect all sorcerors to join, or even a significant enough fraction for it to really matter. I see it as the ones that would join the orders, most of them will become Wizards before doing it.

Sorry if that was a little unclear, but i bet with enough time you can decipher it.

Given how(From my point of view) pointless a thread this is, i am leaving it. Anyone who feels that they have been brutaly mangled can PM me with the news. I have my opinions, that is the way things work in my game, if you like yours otherwise then you can have it that way.
#24
B-naa
Jan 29, 2005 17:24:49
Someone is forgetting ToHS and Wizard's Conclave. Sorcery is Anti-Wizardry. I understand that everyone can do thinks however they please, but i state that i am fundamentally opposed to any sort of Sorcerors joining the WoHS and that that can never happen, period, under any curcumstances in my game. For me the feeling i got from it saying that they wern't at war was "Not at war... yet." About your point about the KoS accepting magic users. I will assume you mean Arcane not divine. My answer to this is that the magic users are not KoS, they are a magical auxiliary. About the fact that they don't want Sorcerors going around doing things that give people a bad opinion of all magic users, well, you can't get all of them to join; and some of the ones that won't join will do the things anyway. It's basicialy hopeless the way i see it for them to expect all sorcerors to join, or even a significant enough fraction for it to really matter. I see it as the ones that would join the orders, most of them will become Wizards before doing it.

Yes, I certainly am trying to forget Wizards Conclave, to be perfectly honest with you, I hated the novel. It basically made all the main characters to be hypocrits, when High Sorcery was gone from the world wild magic was certainly good enough for them. The whole novel seems to be saying sorcery an afront to the Gods, which I don't accept.

Towers of High Sorcery, has a far better take on the situation, curiousity. Wizards were directed to learn all they could about sorcerers. There isn't likely to be a better way to do that then to accept them into the Orders.

As for the Solmanic Auxilary, I believe that they are given the respect of Knights. But if the KoS can change and adapt to the world, then surely the WoHS can. After all, when organisations are inflexable they're not going to last long.
#25
Dragonhelm
Jan 29, 2005 18:15:24
As for the Solmanic Auxilary, I believe that they are given the respect of Knights.

They are given the same degree of respect as a Squire of Crown, and must undergo the Knight's Trials.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 20, 2005 1:01:39	I'm interested if it ever came up that a sorcerer tried to become (in name if not in class) a wizard of high sorcery. Especially since i am playing one who has done just that, to the best of his ability. He dosen't have the actual prestige class, he is Mage of the Arcane Order, and his order is the towers/order of high sorcery. Incidenally, he is neutral, making him a red robed "Mage", and with Lunatari's attitute twoard the ability's of sorcerer's I can see where this makes perfect sense, since he is trying to simply add his magic to "the magic." I was mostly curious to see what other people thought about this. Also, he is now relativley powerful, so him suddenly becoming a renegade at this point would be most... against the way the character lives his life, since he has been with the order since day one and is very devoted to "the magic" and to Lunatari's teachings. Also, he has taken the test of high sorcery, ect., so in roleplaying terms, he is actually a red robed mage, even though he is not the prestige class. Any thoughts would be welcomed.
#2 ferratus Jan 20, 2005 10:26:26	It depends on the wider context. For us WotL buffs, a popular option is just make sorcerers WoHS "warmages" who concentrate on fewer (mostly evocation) spells, and learning them well enough that they can cast them over and over again. For the 5th Age people, where sorcery and wizardry are two different things (or not... its very confused and is being contradicted all the time) then there are rules for something called "epiphany" where sorcerers simply swap out their levels for wizard. They have to do this before they can take levels of the WoHS prestige class or join the WoHS order.
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 20, 2005 22:42:42	erm, i kinda started right after Cataclysm and got shot through time to later in the WoTL time period; the gods are still missing, but should return soon. So is that to say that to be part of the order i would have to stop being a sorcerer altogether? Is this WoHS "Warmage" the PrC or is it just what you have been claiming sorcerers allied with the towers to be?
#4 cam_banks Jan 20, 2005 23:24:14	erm, i kinda started right after Cataclysm and got shot through time to later in the WoTL time period; the gods are still missing, but should return soon. So is that to say that to be part of the order i would have to stop being a sorcerer altogether? Is this WoHS "Warmage" the PrC or is it just what you have been claiming sorcerers allied with the towers to be? Well, officially you can't be a sorcerer at all in either of those time periods. Sorcerers first appeared thousands of years in Krynn's distant past, then were replaced by wizards. By the time of the Cataclysm there were no sorcerers left, and their magic doesn't operate. It's not until the Chaos War and the release of Chaos from his prison inside the Graygem that sorcerers can once again access primal magic. Cheers, CAm
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 20, 2005 23:37:50	Actually, this is the second time the gods left, that was the post-cataclysm era, right? I THINK it's fifth age/WoTL eras, but I could be wrong because I don't know the full background of Krynn, especially the way they keep changing things.
#6 Mortepierre Jan 21, 2005 3:53:55	Here, check this URL: http://www.dl3e.com/reference/river.aspx It should answer all your questions about "when" your character exists currently.
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 21, 2005 14:27:22	Sorcerors cannot, Never, ever, under any curcumstances, Never, ever, No way period, join the Orders of high sorcery. To join they would have to stop being sorcerors and start being wizards. This i have gathered from reading ToHS and the DLCS, along with Wizards' Conclave. Sorcerors use primal sorcery, which is alien to the high sorcery of the Wizards. I suspect that Solinari and Nuitari would stop Lunitari from being so foolish as to let a Sorceror join the Orders. Sorry if it's harsh, but i am saying what i read in Wizards' Conclave, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and the Towers of High Sorcery book.
#8 zombiegleemax Jan 21, 2005 15:25:03	Sorcerers cannot be WoHS.
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 21, 2005 16:15:27	"Sorcerors use primal sorcery, which is alien to the high sorcery of the Wizards. I suspect that Solinari and Nuitari would stop Lunitari from being so foolish as to let a Sorceror join the Orders. Sorry if it's harsh, but i am saying what i read in Wizards' Conclave, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and the Towers of High Sorcery book." This is what I actually sort of expected as a response, so your harshness is nescesarry if i am to get a quality response, I suppose. I figured it made no sense for me to be a full on WoHS, which is why I am (for game purpouses) just a MoTAO. The thing is, as powerful and high strung as the order is, I can't see them not heckeling me and countless other sorcerers on a constant baisis. What im actually proposing is a sorcerer who is allied with the towers, not one who is actually a WoHS, the question is how allied can a sorcerer possibly be? Or is there any way that I can become an OoHS warmage like ferratus was talking about, and just what would that mean? (BTW, thanks for all the help so far, guys)
#10 ferratus Jan 21, 2005 16:17:48	Yes, I should have been more clear. Using sorcerers as "warmages" was a means of getting the PHB sorcerer class into the WotL era, not the pseudo-wizard sorcerers of the 5th Age.
#11 zombiegleemax Jan 21, 2005 16:33:26	Mabey it would be best suited to the character if I just had the "epiphany" in roleplaying terms, but converted to that instead of an actual wizard. That would solve all my problems, and i wouldn't have to overhaul the whole character. Does this sound feasible?
#12 ferratus Jan 21, 2005 16:44:52	Yeah, if you don't want to redesign the character from the ground up (and assuming you are in the 5th Age) you can just say you had an epiphany but not bother to change anything. Sorcerers and Wizards are almost the same anyway. Just spend GP on a spellbook to copy down all the spells you know. Your background of feeling out magic as a sorcerer allows you to know wizardly magic intimately well. Thus you still "remember" them after you cast them.
#13 zombiegleemax Jan 21, 2005 17:05:59	Great, especially since I have been carrying a Journal/Chronicle of my travels/Spellbook since level 0 (I was a level 0 aristocrat... lol). This has been a pretty big help, so I suppose my char does work, after all, I just have to put a couple of things in place. Joy. Thanks for all the help.
#14 zombiegleemax Jan 21, 2005 17:10:59	Also, he has taken the test of high sorcery, ect. Sorry, but WHAT THE UNHOLY GADZOOKS LET HIM PASS THE TEST?!. He has to prove his loyalty to magic... Riiiiight.... His loyalty to high sorcery before all else.... riiiiight.... He needs to be a WIZARD to pass the test. I didn't see this before, but.... Sorry, calming down now.
#15 zombiegleemax Jan 21, 2005 17:25:50	Ya, I didn't have acess to the ToHS book at the time, so we weren't really sure if it should/could work that way. If anything, I would assume that I had my "epiphany" and become equivalant to a OoHS "warmage" even before or during the test, since otherwise this would make no sense at all. I have always joked that he was a sorcerer that thought he was a wizard (carrying the giant book and all, a very educated, scholarly sorcerer), perhaps he actually has been this whole time just memorising a few spells so well he won't forget them. That's about the only logic I can muster, aside from that legend lore spell I cast on myself. If OoHS warmages cannot take the test, then I really don't know how to explain it. Can they take the test?
#16 zombiegleemax Jan 21, 2005 17:28:26	If OoHS warmages cannot take the test, then I really don't know how to explain it. Can they take the test? I ask this assuming that they could not take the prestige class WoHS, but I also assume that many wizards take the test and gain a robe without actually taking levels in the prestige class, since that would make members of all other prestige classes always renegade, and that would make no sense.
#17 cam_banks Jan 21, 2005 20:41:26	The Test of High Sorcery is a purely role-played event. Sorcerers can't pass the Test, as they are not wizards. Use the rules for "Changing Focus" on page 97 of the DLCS if you're interested in having your character undergo the epiphany and become a wizard before he approaches the Orders for his Test. Cheers, Cam
#18 Mortepierre Jan 22, 2005 3:44:58	I just hope your sorcerer has a decent Int score, because if he doesn't he can kiss good-bye to most of his spells when he "converts"...
#19 cam_banks Jan 22, 2005 7:53:56	I just hope your sorcerer has a decent Int score, because if he doesn't he can kiss good-bye to most of his spells when he "converts"... Yes, this was one of the major issues for former wizards in the Age of Mortals. Those that handled the change in magic the easiest were those with a greater degree of self-confidence and strength of character, the better to shape the ambient magic of creation to their wills. The wizards who were purely academic learned much of the theory that developed at the Academy, but never reached the levels of mastery they used to know as wizards. This worked in reverse, also. Purely instinctive sorcerers failed to achieve success as wizards, unable to comprehend or handle all of the arcane rituals and formulas necessary to master High Sorcery. It isn't just a case of changing your spellcasting method from preparation to spontaneity and back - the two classes are dependent on different ability scores. Cheers, Cam
#20 darthsylver Jan 27, 2005 20:06:43	Originally posted by Thrune Sorry, but WHAT THE UNHOLY GADZOOKS LET HIM PASS THE TEST?!.. He has to prove his loyalty to magic... Riiiiight.... His loyalty to high sorcery before all else.... riiiiight.... He needs to be a WIZARD to pass the testI didn't see this before, but.... Sorry, calming down now. Apparently Obvious answer to this question: The DM Another quote by Thrune Sorcerors cannot, Never, ever, under any curcumstances, Never, ever, No way period, join the Orders of high sorcery. To join they would have to stop being sorcerors and start being wizards. This i have gathered from reading ToHS and the DLCS, along with Wizards' Conclave. Sorcerors use primal sorcery, which is alien to the high sorcery of the Wizards. I suspect that Solinari and Nuitari would stop Lunitari from being so foolish as to let a Sorceror join the Orders. Sorry if it's harsh, but i am saying what i read in Wizards' Conclave, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and the Towers of High Sorcery book. Spoiler Yes a Sorceror can pass the test as is novelized in "Wizard's Conclave", or do you not remember Coryn. Not only did she pass, but she became the head of her order. And then she still used Sorcery after passing the test, which is in fact the only reason she did not become the new head of the conclave. Yes I know that one might say writer's privledge or some other such nonsense. But Coryn's dedication was to "The Magic" as well as the survival of the tower of wayreth. So yes a sorceror can pass the test. (Depending on the circumstances). Sunlancer13. This is an issue that is solely between you and your DM. If your DM says to revamp your character, sorry but you have to revamp. If he says it is fine the way it is and you are fine with that, and most importantly - if you enjoy playing your character the way it is, then why change it.
#21 raistlinrox Jan 29, 2005 14:19:55	I actually like the way you have described your character, a sorcerer that has allied himself with the Orders (specifically Lunitari, because she has a greater tolerance of sorcery). Perhaps the reason for not having an epiphany is his Int isn't so great, and would be wasting a bunch of upper-level spell slots. It could work, in secret. It shouldn't be known widely that a sorcerer is helping the Orders, otherwise he might be hunted by a black robe or renegade hunter. Don't know about the whole taking the test, but that's already done so there's nothing to be done about it now. Coryn took her test as a sorcerer, but became a wizard afterwards. Yes she used sorcery afterwards, but by the rules for epiphany, she wouldn't lose her sorcerer levels until she gained 2 levels after her epiphany, so it's possible
#22 B-naa Jan 29, 2005 15:12:23	I think given that the WoHS are not in the best state at the moment, and have a lot of work to do, before the Orders are rebuilt, that should a sorcerer show interest towards joining the orders, they should let him. The Orders are as curious about them, as the Gods of Magic are. There is no open war against sorcerers, sure it would mean changes, but even the WoHS cannot stay the same for all time. And if the KoS can change to include magic users then there's absolutely no reason that the WoHS couldn't accept sorcerers, it's in the best interest of magic too. They don't want a rival group of sorcerers popping up, they also don't want random sorcerers going around and doing things that give all magic users a bad name. Far better that they join the Orders where they can keep an eye on them. Sure they shouldn't have access to the WoHS PrC but I think they should be allowed to join the orders.
#23 zombiegleemax Jan 29, 2005 16:54:32	I think given that the WoHS are not in the best state at the moment, and have a lot of work to do, before the Orders are rebuilt, that should a sorcerer show interest towards joining the orders, they should let him. The Orders are as curious about them, as the Gods of Magic are. There is no open war against sorcerers, sure it would mean changes, but even the WoHS cannot stay the same for all time. And if the KoS can change to include magic users then there's absolutely no reason that the WoHS couldn't accept sorcerers, it's in the best interest of magic too. They don't want a rival group of sorcerers popping up, they also don't want random sorcerers going around and doing things that give all magic users a bad name. Far better that they join the Orders where they can keep an eye on them. Sure they shouldn't have access to the WoHS PrC but I think they should be allowed to join the orders. Someone is forgetting ToHS and Wizard's Conclave. Sorcery is Anti-Wizardry. I understand that everyone can do thinks however they please, but i state that i am fundamentally opposed to any sort of Sorcerors joining the WoHS and that that can never happen, period, under any curcumstances in my game. For me the feeling i got from it saying that they wern't at war was "Not at war... yet." About your point about the KoS accepting magic users. I will assume you mean Arcane not divine. My answer to this is that the magic users are not KoS, they are a magical auxiliary. About the fact that they don't want Sorcerors going around doing things that give people a bad opinion of all magic users, well, you can't get all of them to join; and some of the ones that won't join will do the things anyway. It's basicialy hopeless the way i see it for them to expect all sorcerors to join, or even a significant enough fraction for it to really matter. I see it as the ones that would join the orders, most of them will become Wizards before doing it. Sorry if that was a little unclear, but i bet with enough time you can decipher it. Given how(From my point of view) pointless a thread this is, i am leaving it. Anyone who feels that they have been brutaly mangled can PM me with the news. I have my opinions, that is the way things work in my game, if you like yours otherwise then you can have it that way.
#24 B-naa Jan 29, 2005 17:24:49	Someone is forgetting ToHS and Wizard's Conclave. Sorcery is Anti-Wizardry. I understand that everyone can do thinks however they please, but i state that i am fundamentally opposed to any sort of Sorcerors joining the WoHS and that that can never happen, period, under any curcumstances in my game. For me the feeling i got from it saying that they wern't at war was "Not at war... yet." About your point about the KoS accepting magic users. I will assume you mean Arcane not divine. My answer to this is that the magic users are not KoS, they are a magical auxiliary. About the fact that they don't want Sorcerors going around doing things that give people a bad opinion of all magic users, well, you can't get all of them to join; and some of the ones that won't join will do the things anyway. It's basicialy hopeless the way i see it for them to expect all sorcerors to join, or even a significant enough fraction for it to really matter. I see it as the ones that would join the orders, most of them will become Wizards before doing it. Yes, I certainly am trying to forget Wizards Conclave, to be perfectly honest with you, I hated the novel. It basically made all the main characters to be hypocrits, when High Sorcery was gone from the world wild magic was certainly good enough for them. The whole novel seems to be saying sorcery an afront to the Gods, which I don't accept. Towers of High Sorcery, has a far better take on the situation, curiousity. Wizards were directed to learn all they could about sorcerers. There isn't likely to be a better way to do that then to accept them into the Orders. As for the Solmanic Auxilary, I believe that they are given the respect of Knights. But if the KoS can change and adapt to the world, then surely the WoHS can. After all, when organisations are inflexable they're not going to last long.
#25 Dragonhelm Jan 29, 2005 18:15:24	As for the Solmanic Auxilary, I believe that they are given the respect of Knights. They are given the same degree of respect as a Squire of Crown, and must undergo the Knight's Trials.