What happens when a god returns from the dead?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

gray_richardson

Jan 20, 2005 23:37:54
Does anyone know of any references as to what happens when a dead god, whose body floats in the Astral plane, returns to life?

Does the body vanish? Does it get up and walk away?

If you were a githyanki that lived on a god island in the Astral and that god was returned from the dead, what would that be like to experience from a githyanki inhabitant's point of view?

The only recent occurence that I can think of this happening was Bane, but little was written about this, and nothing that I know of dealing with what happened to his body on the Astral.

Anyone have any thoughts about this?
#2

Shemeska_the_Marauder

Jan 21, 2005 1:30:30
Well it happened, presumably, with Orcus/Tenebrous when he returned from the dead.

However, with a god that has cities built atop it, I'd suggest that the inhabitants would have warning signs long before the godisle up and vanished. Dreams shared by the entire population that are fragments of memories of the god or its petitioners that joined it in death. People seeing things out of the corner of their eyes that look like the dead god's servants/worshippers/etc manifesting in solid form and then vanishing just as quickly. Godquakes most certainly as the deity came closer and closer to reawakening.

That's how I'd handle it anyways, and in a way I've done it before with a not quite dead god whose corpse in the Astral was hollow and filled with a massive redwood/pine forest, still populated or animated by a few hundred minor genius loci that were more than a bit bloodthirsty. Much to the lament of the lesser yugoloths that went into the place and ended up being carved up and used as bloody mulch for new trees (in hindsight, their manner of death had some minor inspiration from Scott Card's Xenocide/Speaker of the Dead novels there, though it wasn't intentional and it's been around 10 years since I read those).

I'm curious as to anyone else's ideas though, as it's a fun little question.
#3

zombiegleemax

Jan 21, 2005 1:33:17
Does anyone know of any references as to what happens when a dead god, whose body floats in the Astral plane, returns to life?

I think it was never detailed in any of the supplements.

[spoiler]

However, in the Dead Gods module, in the end, the PCs are fighting a cultist on the body of Orcus, which is (at that point of time) floating in the Astral. IIRC, what players had to deal with were massive "earth"quakes, the stirrings of Orcus coming to life again (and, depending on their success or failure, they would witness the awakening of a god) - that would be what the gith would have to contend with, anyway.

I always imagined it as if it were the result of a massive "stone to flesh" spell - an ancient, encrusted behemoth slowly stirring and starting to regain conscience. As to what happens with the body - I'd say at some point, when the god is fully aware again, it would dissolve and "merge with his divine essence" again, or something along those lines.

[edit] Dang it, Shemmy. You beat me to the punch :D.
#4

Cyriss

Jan 21, 2005 1:41:28
I don't know of anything official, but the way I'd handle it in my game would be something where the corpse would slowly become re-animated once the gods spirit is given life again. If cities are built on this corpse, the inhabitants would notice their "terrain" changing over time and begin taking on an organic reformation to the gods original healthy state. If they don't evacuate, the god finally gains control of his form and begins his life again; brushing away all the "junk" from his body. I imagine the tenants of a house noticing their floor is pulsating one day.

Really, I don't see there being any definate solution because it's a god, anything can happen. Maybe he doesn't want his old body back and he's able to control his rebirth anyway he chooses. I say, anything you come up with could be a method.
#5

flindbar

Jan 21, 2005 5:04:06
The only recent occurence that I can think of this happening was Bane, but little was written about this, and nothing that I know of dealing with what happened to his body on the Astral.

I think the Bane incident (!) was a little different.
The dead (?) god Bane essentially left his divine essence "in storage" inside his "son" Iyachtu Zvim. Eventually Bane returned and, as I understand it, burst forth from Zvim and re-asserted his control of his former portfolio some of which he had lost to Cyric (and Zvim).
Bearing the above details in mind, it is questionable if he never would ever have had an astral husk.




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#6

zombiegleemax

Jan 21, 2005 10:01:50
If you accept Finder's Bane novel, then Bane has an astral husk. In any case, his recent resurrection is through Xvim. What happen to his astral husk then?

I'd liken it as... A human died. His corpse is lost in some unreachable dungeon. His friend cast true resurrection and hey presto! He's alive! But there is still a corpse in the dungeon... which can no longer be used for resurrection purposes.

Anyway, the reviving god might even assimilate the souls of his "tenants" or corrupt them or something.
#7

flindbar

Jan 21, 2005 10:13:36
If you accept Finder's Bane novel, then Bane has an astral husk.

Oops yes you are quite right.




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#8

sildatorak

Jan 21, 2005 14:45:17
Given the current state of the FR Planes, it is really funny to think that an FR novel was more respectful of PS canon than the PS novels were.
#9

zombiegleemax

Jan 21, 2005 17:02:32
Given the current state of the FR Planes...

Yah, 3rd ed. But personally I think that the 2E FR novels handled the Great Wheel pretty well. I like the Avatar series. Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck are interesting as well... I was dying to see what would happen to Xvim after Beshaba destroyed his realm... I wasn't expecting the Bane comeback though.

As far as "canon" is concerned, novels usually don't have much weight. Shrugs. Just use whatever makes a nice story.
#10

ripvanwormer

Jan 21, 2005 19:34:35
Basically, every event that occurs anywhere in the multiverse leaves an Astral imprint. Every wish, every promise, every hope, every dream, every nightmare, every thought, every belief, every spell and psionic manifestation creates an echo in the Astral winds destined to blow forever through the timelessness of the silver void, although the Doomguard would argue that this information eventually decays even there.

A dead god is a different creature, more a splash than a ripple. It's the result of a traumatic void left in the fabric of the Outer Planes. It's not the deity's literal corpse; it's the corpse of the faith and spirit that created the god. It's much larger and less distinct than the typical manifestation of Power, kind of a blurry combination of all the god's aspects, of every prayer ever prayed to it, all the symbols and idols and shrines, all the awe and dread and horror that those who believed in it experienced during its lifetime.

If the god returns to life, the planar trauma is eased and the dead god dissolves. Maybe not right away, but relatively soon as the god creates a new realm and the belief it embodies has a new place to go. It can still be experienced as whispers in the thoughtwinds, but it's no longer a great landmark in the plane.

A god can also leave a literal corpse if it had a physical form at the time it died. This corpse is probably extremely magical in its own right; it can be made into a terrifying mummy if the Epic Level Handbook can be believed.

Bane left only a tiny piece of his essence inside Xvim. He did this when he was still alive, and left it to germinate and grow "just in case." Probably Xvim had an inherent lifespan, and eventually would have "hatched" regardless of whether Bane died or not. If Bane had been alive, he would have reabsorbed the energy and created a new backup in a new offspring. Instead, he did die and the vast majority of the belief he embodied became an Astral husk as would occur for any god; Iyachtu Xvim was already created at this point, and no new energy went into him. When Xvim "hatched" the freed essence of Bane absorbed the dead god instead of the other way around.

Mystra, on the other hand, probably didn't leave a corpse. Or else she did and it was absorbed by Midnight right away as she claimed her predecessor's realm and the faith and worship associated with it. Mystryl probably didn't leave a corpse either; most of her faith went into Mystra, and the rest dispersed throughout Toril's ethereal-magical aura.

Or you could play it that the dead gods are a more-or-less permanent grave marker, a lasting scar on the Astral Plane and a reminder of every time a divinity dies. A god who dies and is resurrected multiple times might leave a chain of corpses floating in the same general "area" of the Silver Void, since they'd be conceptually proximate to one another. That's not the standard way of looking at it, though. In almost every way, the dead god is a truer remnant of the divinity it was than any physical corpse could ever be. They're the closest thing to an afterlife most gods can look forward to.
#11

manindarkness

Jan 21, 2005 19:37:21
I have been toying with the idea that it was only a ploy of Xvim to gain more power...
#12

voldenuit

Jan 21, 2005 20:58:58
Or you could play it that the dead gods are a more-or-less permanent grave marker, a lasting scar on the Astral Plane and a reminder of every time a divinity dies. A god who dies and is resurrected multiple times might leave a chain of corpses floating in the same general "area" of the Silver Void, since they'd be conceptually proximate to one another.

Heh. I'd hate to see the string of corpses left by Re each night after he is swallowed by Nut in such a cosmology. Talk about littering! There are also several mythologies that involve gods (especially sun-gods) dying and being resurrected at regular intervals. The Vedic gods also have a history of deaths and reincarnations in varius aspects (although usually it was only their avatars that are reincarnated/killed).

That's not the standard way of looking at it, though. In almost every way, the dead god is a truer remnant of the divinity it was than any physical corpse could ever be. They're the closest thing to an afterlife most gods can look forward to.

I'm more a proponent of the theory that the husks in the Astral are psychic imprints of the gods (and/or perhaps the unheard prayers of their followers) rather than the actual physical bodies of the gods (no matter how transformed). I believe you allude to the possibility in the beginning of your post, although the distinction between our two theories is that in mine, the husks are echoes from the gods' lives/worshippers, and in yours, it is an echo of the god's death. Both theories may be equally true.

To Rr'ka: I also remember the Godquakes from Dead Gods. In the recent Incursion adventure, Tu'Narath also suffered from Godquakes as
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Vlaakith tried to siphon the remnants of divine power from the husk of the Sleeping God. Where the quakes a result of the potential awakening of the divine remnants? Just a side effect of the siphoning process? Or would the husk disappear/be destroyed if its lambent divine energy were incorporated into a new divine being a.k.a. Vlaakith?
#13

ripvanwormer

Jan 21, 2005 22:22:39
I'm more a proponent of the theory that the husks in the Astral are psychic imprints of the gods (and/or perhaps the unheard prayers of their followers) rather than the actual physical bodies of the gods

That's my theory too. "It's not the deity's literal corpse; it's the corpse of the faith and spirit that created the god. A god can also leave a literal corpse if it had a physical form at the time it died." I agree with you. You're very smart. I agree with your smartness.

Also, does Moander have an Astral Husk? Or did he not leave one behind because his divinity was taken up by another being? (aka Finder).

I guess (not being any kind of realmsologist) Finder got his divinity from Moander: his raw divine energy. He also gained Moander's portfolio, and retained it in altered, creatively interpreted form. He didn't gain anything of Moander's essence or personality; nothing of the dead god's soul or spirit (which, as an outsider, was indistinguishable from his physical form anyway, although gods can make seperate ones). No prayer aimed at Moander will ever go to Finder; in fact, it will go to Lolth.

If you make a parallel with what Finder did and
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what Vlaakith is trying to do
#14

gray_richardson

Jan 21, 2005 23:00:20
Surely Moander has an Astral husk, I can't imagine him not having one. We know Amaunator definitely has one. Whether the Astral plane of Toril is separate or part of the Great Wheel, the gods of Realmspace have contributed their fare share of god islands to the Astral plane.

Tyche, though, I don't know. She split in two, not necessarily died. I know some gods looked for Tyche after the Dawn Cataclysm on Toril and never found her. Presumably they checked the Astral Plane for a body. The Astral has to be equivalent to the city morgue for the gods. I would think it would be the first place they check when a god turns up missing. But who knows, maybe Tyche does have a husk in the Astral, just maybe it was only a partial husk, not recognizable since so much of her survived to live on in her twin offspring.

Now I am wondering about the story of the dead god that Tu'narath is built upon. The Guide to the Astral says only that it is an unamed god that was dead aeons before the Githyanki founded their capital there. He was a multi-limbed deity. Maybe a Hindu god? Maybe god of an ancient alien race? Any thoughts?
_______________
Dead God Humor:

What do you get when you say "Sorry Charlie!" to the the Starkist tunafish just one too many times?
Tuna rath! ;)

If Mark Twain worked for WotC and wrote a novel about the death of Sekolah, what would he entitle it?
Husk Fin! :D
#15

sildatorak

Jan 22, 2005 4:21:06
I doubt any gods that die in a cyclical sense like some sun gods leave astral husks. That is purely a physical death, and powers are pretty resilient as long as they are still believed in. The worship power will still flow to them through the night, since the idea of light still exists in the minds of their followers.
#16

gray_richardson

Jan 22, 2005 11:12:37
We know that Amaunator definitely died and has an astral husk as Faiths & Avatars (p.27) states "His corpse now drifts with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once proud heritage."

This suggests that the iterations of the faerunian sun god do not transform into the next aspect but instead hold their positions as an office, guarding the portfolios of dawn, noon and dusk.

Amaunator did not reincarnate as Lathander, but rather Amaunator died and Lathander stepped up to fill the office.

As for Re, well, I agree he probably wouldn't leave husks each night. Although maybe he leaves little tiny ones ;) But certainly faith and belief in him did not die and his celestial realm wouldn't die. Well, that is until Gruumsh killed him for good in -1071 DR within Realmspace. He should definitely have an astral husk now in the Faerunian astral plane.

I'm not sure how that works in the 2E Great Wheel though, where just an avatar dies, I don't think that avatars leave a husks when the greater godhead is still alive.
#17

ripvanwormer

Jan 22, 2005 14:03:40
Now I am wondering about the story of the dead god that Tu'narath is built upon. The Guide to the Astral says only that it is an unamed god that was dead aeons before the Githyanki founded their capital there. He was a multi-limbed deity. Maybe a Hindu god? Maybe god of an ancient alien race? Any thoughts?

Dungeon #100 says the githyanki call it the One in the Void. From the nature of the energies within, it was probably good-aligned, or at least non-evil.

My guess is that it was nonhuman. The githyanki themselves are so ancient, anything eons before them is unlikely to resemble either contemporary or ancient Indian religion.

Dungeon #100 and Polyhedron #159, on the opposite sides of the same magazine, are somewhat contradictory. Dungeon #100 has
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the lich-queen attempting to use the One in the Void to gain apotheosis
#18

kuje31

Jan 23, 2005 11:08:04
We know that Amaunator definitely died and has an astral husk as Faiths & Avatars (p.27) states "His corpse now drifts with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once proud heritage."

This suggests that the iterations of the faerunian sun god do not transform into the next aspect but instead hold their positions as an office, guarding the portfolios of dawn, noon and dusk.

Amaunator did not reincarnate as Lathander, but rather Amaunator died and Lathander stepped up to fill the office.

Races of Faerun, in the human section, in the Bedine entry and in one of the other entries, changed this. Amaunator was reborn as Lathander and so far there is nothing in FR's new planar material to even say if the deities still go to the Astral like they did in 2e. Eric Boyd, who wrote F&A and that section of Races also has said that Amaunator was reborn as Lathander.

Someone should ask Rich or Eric or someone about where the dead gods go in FR's new planes. Especially considering there is 4 different and seperate astrals, that we know of, connected to Toril.
#19

gray_richardson

Jan 23, 2005 12:10:43
I just read the part in Races of Faerun under the Bedine section you mentioned, and it says only that the Bedine "venerate At'ar (Amaunator, a dead Netherese deity reborn as Lathander)".

While I see your point that this could be perceived as changing the Amaunator/Lathander dynamic twixt 2E and 3E, I really don't think that was Eric's intention here. I think the sentence was meant only as a simplified explanation to give you the gist of the relationship between Amaunator and Lathander, without writing paragraphs about the history and technical details about how the Sun god cycles through its aspects. I mean, in a way Amaunator was reborn as Lathander but only in a metaphorical way, not in a technical sense, in my humble opinion.

I know you tend to advocate a strict constructionist interpretation with regards to canon, Kuje, but I tend to shy away from taking each word as the gospel truth and attributing biblical import to a newer sourcebook's text with regards to overriding established canon in the absence of the author's manifest intent to do so. Otherwise an author with one sentence, turn of phrase or even one poorly chosen word could eradicate pages of previously well established continuity where he did not mean to. I am hesitant to attribute such biblical import to so inoccuous a sentence with out more of a manifest intent to change canon.

I would think that if an author wanted to change canon that he would address the issue head on, more explicitly, rather than make the change by way of an oblique reference in an unrelated passage regarding another topic.

If it was Eric's intent to change canon and say that Amaunator never had an astral body and was reincarnated directly into Lathander, I am sure he would have found a way to express this more definitively in a more appropriate section dealing with gods or Lathander or the Netherese, and not by way of an aside in the section on the Bedine.

I could be proven wrong about this, but until I see something more definite, I am going to stick with my interpretation of Amaunator having truly died and Lathander being a distinct entity that replaced him. Just my two cents.
#20

kuje31

Jan 23, 2005 12:57:06
As I said, Eric has gone on record as saying YES Lathander is Amaunator reborn.

Jan 7th 2000 reply on the FR mailing list, at the time this was non canon but Races of Faerun made it canon:

"One non-canon theory I've always harbored is that Amaunator has actually been reborn as Lathander. Think of the dawn god as the first epoch in the eons long cycle of the "sun god". The second epoch is the "high sun god". The third epoch is the "dusk god." Amaunator as worshiped by the Netherese was actually "the sun god" in the second epoch of his life cycle. Amaunator then declined into evil during his third epoch and faded away. Once Amaunator was dead, the "sun god" was reborn in the first epoch as Lathander, god of dawn. This means that Lathander and his church is fated to evolve into a LN, strictly regimented church in centuries hence and then evolve again into a corrupt, evil god of dusk centuries after that.

Just a possibility.

--Eric"

If the WOTC boards search function was working I could also find the same quote he's posted on the WOTC boards hmmm over a year ago. Also if you further read Amaunators info in F&A, Eric left this open as a event that might or might not have actually happened and so when Races came out it is canon, where it says in F&A on page 27, "He was either absorbed into or became Lathander."

Actually found his old WOTC reply:

April 5th 2003 reply on the FR mailing list. "FWIW, here's what I posted on the Wizards boards a while back.

"Imagine a 3-faced statue, with each face looking forward, 120 degrees apart. Now imagine a light source orbiting around this statue. Sometimes you can see one face, sometimes, two faces, never 3.

This is how I envisioned the uber-sun-god. Lathander is one face, Amaunator another, and a nameless god of dusk the 3rd. If you wait enough centuries, Amaunator "dies of neglect" and the cult of the dusk god grows in power. Then he too dies of neglect (allowing first Myrkul, then others to seize that portfolio for a time), and Lathander grows in power. It may well be that during the death period of this cycle, that particular face of the uber-sun-god statue lies on the Astral Plane.

Is there really such a statue/uber-sun-god or is this the wacky ideas of a crazy cultist? It's up to the DM to decide."

New stuff:

So to answer a couple of questions asked in previous posts: a) I envision that the churches of Amaunator/Dusk god and Dusk god/Lathander and Lathander/Amaunator can overlap. b) I envision that the "dead portfolio" (be it dawn, high sun, or dusk) can be seized for some amount of time by another god, but inexorably returns to the uber-sun-god. c) One theory is that Myrkul stole the dusk portfolio from the nameless sun god after the "dusk" aspect "died." This doesn't work so well, IMO, as it means that the length of time the "dusk aspect" is predominant is much shorter than the long reigns of "dawn aspect" and "high sun aspect". (We know roughly how long Amauntor reigned from the Netheril timeline, and we have a rough idea how long Lathander reigned from our crude datings of the Dawn Cataclysm, leaving just a few centuries for a dusk aspect.) d) Another theory (which I think works) is that Myrkul was the third face of the uber-son-god. This only works if the length of time with just one visible face exists only for an instant (which works in my "myth"). In other words, the moment after the death of Amaunator was the "instant" when only Myrkul existed and the death of Myrkul during the Time of Troubles was "instant" when only Lathander existed. From this we conclude, the Dawn Catacylsm is the name of the "moment + epsilon" when Myrkul started to wane (this was many centuries ago) and Lathander started to wax. Of course this means we should be seeing the first whisperings of the "high sun" cult/heresy in the "near" future (where near could be today, decades away, or centuries away, as the DM wishes) where Lathander's faithful barely begin to seem a lot more like Amaunator's church at its height.

FWIW, this theory also explains how Lathander could have been both old (he was the face of the uber-son-god) and young (the dawn aspect was just born) around the time of the Dawn Catacylsm.

How's that?

--Eric"

Now I never said that Amaunator didn't have a astral body, what I said is that he was reborn as Lathander. Do we even know that FR's astral planes even contains the bodies of deities? Again nothing in the new planar material says this is so.
#21

gray_richardson

Jan 23, 2005 16:23:36
Yes, those were the quotes from Eric that I was thinking of. Maybe we are on the same page after all. I guess it depends on what you mean by "reborn".

I would agree that the Sun god seems to be reborn again and again in successive incarnations, but that the individual identities appear to be distinct.

It is a very mysterious relationship, regardless. It is unclear whether these 3 aspects are like split personalities of an unseen god, each personality emerging for a time in a cycle, or more like different office holders filling the office of Sun god like the revolving presidency of the European Union. Myrkul was an ascended mortal, though, so that leads me to believe that the portfolios of dusk, noon and dawn are more like offices held rather than emerging personalities or reincarnations.

Heck, maybe it is some kind of weird mix of the theories. Or something different all together.

As for whether the FR cosmology has astral husks, that's a good question. I had just assumed it did, and continues to do so as it did in 2E, since it has not been overridden by anything in 3E so far.

I can't believe there is no reference in 3E Realmslore to astral husks, are there really none? I looked but couldn't find any either. I like to think though that Dead Gods still have astral husks as they did in 2E.
#22

kuje31

Jan 23, 2005 16:31:34
I can't believe there is no reference in 3E Realmslore to astral husks, are there really none? I looked but couldn't find any either. I like to think though that Dead Gods still have astral husks as they did in 2E.

I haven't found any 3/3.5e FR text that states this is so, as I said..... So we can assume this might or might not be true but there is no lore about the new FR planes that says eitherway....
#23

Mirtek

Jan 28, 2005 10:54:07
Iand re-asserted his control of his former portfolio some of which he had lost to Cyric (and Zvim).

Actually no, he didin't.

That was a misstake in the FRCS and has been corrected with the FRCS errata.

Cyric is still god of strife, not Bane. Bane took only Xvim's portfolios and newly added fear (previously unclaimed)

About Moander: Yes, he has a "corpse" floating through the astral plane. See Faiths&Avatars
Well, that is until Gruumsh killed him for good in -1071 DR within Realmspace. He should definitely have an astral husk now in the Faerunian astral plane.

Actually Gruumsh did not kill him for good. It was only an avatar of Gruumsh slaying an avatar of Re.

The actual deities did never fight.
#24

gray_richardson

Jan 28, 2005 13:33:15
Actually Gruumsh did not kill him for good. It was only an avatar of Gruumsh slaying an avatar of Re.

The actual deities did never fight.

What I meant by "kill him for good" was twofold. I was referring to a real death, as opposed to the ritual death he went through every night when the sun went down, to be resurrected every morning at dawn according to his myth.

Secondly, if you will remember, the Mulhorand and Untheric pantheon had no presence within Toril's crystal sphere, having been blocked by Imaskari magic. They were only able to manifest their presence by way of sending avatars across space at great pains to bodily enter the crystal sphere so that they could serve their peoples as gods incarnate.

Since Re could not manifest within Realmspace at all except by means of this avatar, I maintain my statement was accurate that Gruumsh killed him for good within Realmspace. I would argue that he is as dead as any god can be within Realmspace.

Although I agree that he was not killed in the rest of the multiverse.
#25

Mirtek

Jan 28, 2005 15:59:49
But since Re was not killed, but merely lost an avatar, there is no reason for an astral husk appearing in the astral plane, as such a "corpse" only appears when the true form of a god is slain.

So even if the defeat of his avatar banished Re from Realmspace, he should not appear on the faerunian astral plane, as he never actually was in Realmspace anyway
#26

gray_richardson

Jan 28, 2005 18:42:06
That's a good point, and perhaps true from a 2E Planescape perspective.

Under 3E Realms Cosmology rules I can't be as certain. My sense of it is (and I could be wrong) that for interloper gods to enter Realmspace, Ao makes them send an avatar--or some sort of godly instance--that will forever more be separate and independent from any other instances of that deity outside of the Realmspace cosmology. That avatar or godly instance now becomes the god as far as Realmspace is concerned, invested with full divine rank, SDA's and the ability to make other avatars and such, and all the rights and privileges of a full god within the FR cosmology.

For all intents and purposes I believe that the incarnate RE was the full god Re within Realmspace--not just a mere avatar. But the mechanics of this, especially with him being an incarnate god, might have been very tricky.

I think as such that RE might very well have left an astral husk in Faerun's Astral plane. But I can't be certain. Greater minds (and more official ones) than mine will have to suss that one out.

Of course, like I said, my interpretation might be wrong.
#27

Mirtek

Jan 29, 2005 5:57:14
For all intents and purposes I believe that the incarnate RE was the full god Re within Realmspace--not just a mere avatar. But the mechanics of this, especially with him being an incarnate god, might have been very tricky.

I think as such that RE might very well have left an astral husk in Faerun's Astral plane. But I can't be certain. Greater minds (and more official ones) than mine will have to suss that one out.

Of course, like I said, my interpretation might be wrong.

In that case he should not have been able to walk Faerun, as the gods are not allowed to enter Abeir-Toril in their true froms, and a mere avatar of Gruumsh would not have been able to slay the true Re.
#28

gray_richardson

Jan 29, 2005 13:55:40
Ah, well there is an interesting story behind that!

According to Powers & Pantheons the Imaskari basically kidnapped the Mulan as slaves from another crystal sphere by the use of gates, after which the Imaskari sealed the gates and used powerful magic to prevent their gods from entering Realmspace.

The Mulani prayed for help from their gods. Ao was moved by their prayers (Ao seems to be very "pro-worshipper" and appears entirely motivated to supply a god, some god, to answer the prayers of anyone who wants to worship one .) Ao enlisted the help of Ptah, a god of Wildspace, formerly a god of the Mulan homeworld. Ptah relayed the prayers of the Mulan to the two Mulani pantheons in Mulanspace and extended an invitation from Ao to send powerful avatars called Manifestations into Realmspace to service their faithful.

Manifestations apparently are an order of magnitude more powerful than an avatar and require a great sacrifice of divine power. Manifestations upon entering Realmspace are cut-off from their original godhead.

Ptah lead the manifestations sent by the two pantheons across wildspace in two spelljammer galleys and they landed on the peaks of the Godswatch Mountains. The gods came out and laid a major slapdown on the Imaskari and set all the Mulan free and went on to found the kingdoms of Unther and Mulhorand.

Powers and Pantheons says that upon their death the manifestations were able to bypass the god barrier and their essence was able to be reabsorbed by the original gods in the outer planes.

That's the 2E version.

The 3E version might have been retconned a little. That story is told at this link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/unther

Which seems to indicate that the manifestations somehow used the Astral to bypass the godbarrier instead of by sailing across the phlogiston in divine spelljammer galleys.

I don't know if the 3E version might have resulted in astral husks in Faerun's astral or not.
#29

zombiegleemax

Jan 29, 2005 16:19:54
Which seems to indicate that the manifestations somehow used the Astral to bypass the godbarrier instead of by sailing across the phlogiston in divine spelljammer galleys.

But these gods exist in the Outer Planes. They would have used the Astral in any case. If the Imaskari wanted to block divine power, I'd expect them to block the Astral... I always figured they pentrated the Imaskari Barrier only because of the powerful manifestations (regular avatars just not powerful enough to break the barrier) and has nothing to do with their itinerary/modes of transport.

There seems to be some continuity problem here... (That's nothing new, I guess.) The "manifestation get cut off from the godhead" part also seems not to fit well with the new "FR Lolth has nothing to do with Greyhawk Lolth" system... I think someone needs to rework and reform Mulhorandi theology...
#30

gray_richardson

Dec 03, 2005 14:31:34
#31

ripvanwormer

Dec 03, 2005 18:07:51
Orcus' corpse disappeared after he was resurrected, so it seems that reborn gods definitely leave no astral bodies behind. Probably they reabsorb them and reincorporate their power.
#32

zombiegleemax

Dec 04, 2005 0:45:54
With all this talk of dead Gods, I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned Anubus. I am not quite sure if this is canon or not (I'm just a player without DM module access) but isn't Anubus the guardian/caretaker of the dead gods floating on in the Astral? We always joked that Anubus was the dead god of the dead gods of the dead.

As far as I know, Anubus is no longer a god with worshippers, but does still inhabit the astral, not as a husk, but a being still ripe with god-like powers who watches over the other 'sleeping' gods.

So, here are some questions: How does Anubus maintain his power without worshippers? If a dead god awakens, but leaves their husk, does Anubus clean it up? Does Anubus care one way or the other whether or not a god stays dead or comes back to life, and does he have any say in the matter?
#33

ordbyrht

Dec 04, 2005 9:41:03
How does Anubus maintain his power without worshippers?

Anubis does not require worshippers, he is no longer a god. Anubis cast off his divinity and became something else, something unique. He is now simply the Guardian of Dead Gods/Chac Mool.

Anubis can still have worshippers and clerics, but they gain their powers from the entire Egyptian pantheon.

Does Anubus care one way or the other whether or not a god stays dead or comes back to life, and does he have any say in the matter?

We know for certain that he does care, at least to some extent. In Dead Gods, the Guardian appeared before the PCs and pointed them towards Tenebrous's corpse (Where Quah-Namog was attempted to resurrect him).

No, I don't think he has a say in any god's resurrection.
#34

gray_richardson

Dec 04, 2005 11:07:24
Anubis is probably now a divine rank 21 (or higher) overgod.
#35

ripvanwormer

Dec 04, 2005 11:33:53
With all this talk of dead Gods, I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned Anubus. I am not quite sure if this is canon or not (I'm just a player without DM module access) but isn't Anubus the guardian/caretaker of the dead gods floating on in the Astral?

Yes, that's canonical (On Hallowed Ground, A Guide to the Astral Plane, Dead Gods, Dragon #240).

So, here are some questions: How does Anubus maintain his power without worshippers?

The Guardian of the Dead Gods is thought to gain its power from all the dead gods collectively, or from the living gods who fear what might happen to their own corpses when they pass on.

If a dead god awakens, but leaves their husk, does Anubus clean it up?

I don't think dead gods leave husks. Probably the gods reabsorb their husks in order to regain their former power.

Does Anubus care one way or the other whether or not a god stays dead or comes back to life, and does he have any say in the matter?

The Guardian of the Dead Gods cares about very little other than that the dead gods remain undesecrated - and it does not always interfere then, either, or githyanki wouldn't be able to build cities on them. Why the Guardian fiercely protects some divine corpses but allows others to be disturbed is unknown; perhaps it respects the individual dead god's personal wishes, or a complicated system of rules given to it by all the gods, or its own discretion, or perhaps it depends on how much power remains in the corpse. It often permits minor tampering, but will almost definitely act if a divine corpse is in danger of being destroyed. Some corpses it does not permit even to be touched. Sometimes it acts through its proxy, Betita Khab.

The Guardian did interfere, slightly, when Orcus was reanimated as the undead wraith Tenebrous, appearing before a party of adventurers (or multiple parties) telling them that something was going on that was against the cosmic order. It did not, however, do anything directly. It's probably safe to say that it doesn't have the power to prevent gods from returning to life, and probably wouldn't care in most cases.