Takhisis/Tiamat and Bahamut/Paladine - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 22, 2005 13:39:28	Over on the D&D boards there's an argument going on over the relation between Takhisis/Tiamat and Bahamut/Paladine. Some of you guys may want to check it out. There's been a couple of weird theories that are being thrown around as well. The thread is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=366765 -Angus
#2 jonesy Jan 22, 2005 13:53:48	Umm...why? I didn't see anything even remotely worthy of the fourth millionth debate on the matter.
#3 Nived Jan 24, 2005 10:54:41	As said this pops up on these and the Dragonlance.com boards ever so often. I'll try to sum up a few points and a general concensus that I've generally seen drawn. Which again is by no means held by all of us, but many. Simple answer: If you want them to be the same in your campaign go for it. But officially they are not connected. Complicated answer: Yes they have similarities and yes one set was used as a jumping off point for the other, but no they are not the same and in fact really can't be the same deities. Tiamat and Bahamut are lesser deities... Paladine and Takhisis are greater dieties. With the first set only concerned with dragons and the second concerned with well... everything. The planes aren't connected as far as core Dragonlance is concerned. And the main reason is... highlight for spoilers. Show Paladine has sacrificed his godhood and is now a mortal and Takhisis has been stripped of her godhood turned into a mortal and killed. She's dead. Did Tiamat suddenly die in all the other campaign world at the end of the War of Souls? No because they're not the same diety.
#4 Dragonhelm Jan 24, 2005 11:00:12	And the main reason is... highlight for spoilers. Show Paladine has sacrificed his godhood and is now a mortal and Takhisis has been stripped of her godhood turned into a mortal and killed. She's dead. Did Tiamat suddenly die in all the other campaign world at the end of the War of Souls? No because they're not the same diety.
#5 cam_banks Jan 24, 2005 11:02:53	Ah, yes, but remember that the Dragonlance timeline is something like 55 years ahead of the Realms and Greyhawk. So in that timeline, the events of the War of Souls has not happened yet. ;) All the more reason to just pretend none of the other settings have anything to do with Dragonlance, and stop keeping track of where they are in comparison to each other's timelines. ;) Assuming that time passes the same for Krynn as it does for the other worlds, anyway. Cheers, Cam
#6 Nived Jan 24, 2005 11:09:07	And Dragonhelm points out the other reason I neverliked combined campaign worlds
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2005 11:30:42	I do not see why one would want to combine worlds. Wasnt it Ravenloft and Starjammer and Planescapes that began this whole debate?
#8 brimstone Jan 24, 2005 11:59:20	Assuming that time passes the same for Krynn as it does for the other worlds, anyway. No doubt. I mean, do they have the same number of days in a year? Are their days both 24 hours long? Is Krynn's solar system traveling at the same speed through the cosmos as Toril's...because if they aren't, a second on Krynn won't be a second on Toril. So many things to consider. It's just best to keep them seperate.
#9 Dragonhelm Jan 24, 2005 12:32:26	All the more reason to just pretend none of the other settings have anything to do with Dragonlance, and stop keeping track of where they are in comparison to each other's timelines. ;) When I did my Krynnspace guide, I wanted to bring it up to current date. I had to figure out a common starting point. Krynnspace's history is listed as future history in order to denote the current timeline in Spelljammer, as well as to show what would happen in the future. As someone who is interested in both Dragonlance and Spelljammer, I like to keep track of where each setting lies in accordance to one another in the timeline. Assuming that time passes the same for Krynn as it does for the other worlds, anyway. But of course. ;)
#10 daedavias_dup Jan 24, 2005 17:49:29	No doubt. I mean, do they have the same number of days in a year? Are their days both 24 hours long? Is Krynn's solar system traveling at the same speed through the cosmos as Toril's...because if they aren't, a second on Krynn won't be a second on Toril. So many things to consider. It's just best to keep them seperate. A second is a universal measurement of time . That is why a second for those of us that use the Solar dating system(most of the world) and those that use the Lunar dating system(a large portion of Arabics and other Middle-Easterners) still use the same derivatives of time. However, in spite of that, years on Earth, Krynn, and Toril will all have different numbers of seconds, though. And that is what is important. But yes, saying Takhisis and Tiamat are the same is like saying my brother and I are the same person. We both share similar appearances and other physical features, but we are still two completely different beings. People seem to think that the two dragon gods are the same as the Krynnish gods based on appearance alone, which is not a good assumption. Paladine and Takhisis's favored forms are not those of dragons, but of lesser races such as humans and elves.
#11 Matthew_L._Martin Jan 24, 2005 19:33:46	I do not see why one would want to combine worlds. Wasnt it Ravenloft and Starjammer and Planescapes that began this whole debate? Actually, it was the 1st Edition Manual of the Planes by Jeff Grubb that stated Takhisis and Tiamat to be the same entity. (Krynn's extraplanar links go back to "A Stone's Throw Away", where the Magus summons a demon prince that, while not named, is pretty clearly Demogorgon.) Matthew L. Martin
#12 brimstone Jan 25, 2005 9:11:42	A second is a universal measurement of time . That is why a second for those of us that use the Solar dating system(most of the world) and those that use the Lunar dating system(a large portion of Arabics and other Middle-Easterners) still use the same derivatives of time. Sorry dude, time is relative. (pun intended) It is completly dependent on one's velocity. But yes, saying Takhisis and Tiamat are the same is like saying my brother and I are the same person. Well...I think it's all pretty subjective. Obviously, the new D&D stats for Tiamat and Bahamut are not Takhisis and Paladine, but that doesn't mean that they don't not have to be if you don't want them to be. Me personally...I don't think Krynn should be connected to the other worlds officially...as it causes too many problems. But I have no problem with it in my own game or else where. And I like the homage given to Tiamat and Bahamut in TotL (where Takhisis and Paladine's Istarian names {I think} were Tii'Mhut and Ba'Mhutt or something like that) So, while I don't think they should be the same officially...I do like that it's hinted at.
#13 daedavias_dup Jan 25, 2005 9:29:38	Sorry dude, time is relative. (pun intended) It is completly dependent on one's velocity. It is? Curses! Crap, I should have known that. Well, that is why I am a biologist not a physicist, I guess. Measurements of time are universal, but perception of time is not. ...back on topic, P does not = B, and Ta does not equal Ti.
#14 brimstone Jan 25, 2005 9:36:29	It is? Curses! Crap, I should have known that. Well, that is why I am a biologist not a physicist, I guess. Measurements of time are universal, but perception of time is not. ...back on topic, P does not = B, and Ta does not equal Ti. Yeah...I realized I had absolutely nothing on topic on that post...so I went back and added some discussion about P/B and Ta/Ti.
#15 zombiegleemax Nov 27, 2005 19:32:57	it doesnt really matter if it does. I do not have it my self. The gods in my game are takhisis and paladine and no one else. but maybe in your game it may. Who really gives a care. It doesnt matter if they are or if they are not. because it is different for each game, and each Dungeon master.
#16 zombiegleemax Nov 28, 2005 16:02:44	...hasn't Chemosh been compared to Orcus and Reorx to Moradin?
#17 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2005 14:13:58	I think that there is something in the Annotated Legends that kind of tells us where the gods got their names and some of their inspiration.
#18 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2005 15:48:41	Sorry dude, time is relative. (pun intended) It is completly dependent on one's velocity.Well...I think it's all pretty subjective. Obviously, the new D&D stats for Tiamat and Bahamut are not Takhisis and Paladine, but that doesn't mean that they don't not have to be if you don't want them to be. Me personally...I don't think Krynn should be connected to the other worlds officially...as it causes too many problems. But I have no problem with it in my own game or else where. And I like the homage given to Tiamat and Bahamut in TotL (where Takhisis and Paladine's Istarian names {I think} were Tii'Mhut and Ba'Mhutt or something like that) So, while I don't think they should be the same officially...I do like that it's hinted at. Incorrect, time is universal. A second on earth is the same everywhere. The speed one is moving at has nothing whatsoever to do with time. A minute at 40 miles per hour is the same as if I'm standing perfectly still: AKA 60 seconds. But thats off topic.
#19 brimstone Dec 12, 2005 16:38:25	Incorrect, time is universal. A second on earth is the same everywhere. The speed one is moving at has nothing whatsoever to do with time. A minute at 40 miles per hour is the same as if I'm standing perfectly still: AKA 60 seconds. LOL! Whatever dude. But, if you want to disagree/argue with Einstein and the Theory of Relativity, that's your perogative, I guess.
#20 ripvanwormer Dec 13, 2005 20:32:26	Sword of Geddon, time actually moves a little slower the faster you go. Someone travelling at close to light speed would experience very little subjective time while slower travelers might experience centuries. Someone travelling at the speed of light would experience no time at all. The speed of light, on the other hand, is the same relative to both travelers. Relativity does all sorts of weird things.
#21 CzarGarrett Dec 14, 2005 9:42:50	...hasn't Chemosh been compared to Orcus and Reorx to Moradin? You can compare all kinds of Gods to one another. Tyr out of FR and Heironous out of Greyhawk are similiar. Doesn't mean they are the same.
#22 Matthew_L._Martin Dec 19, 2005 18:25:51	You can compare all kinds of Gods to one another. Tyr out of FR and Heironous out of Greyhawk are similiar. Doesn't mean they are the same. Jeff Grubb once confirmed that Orcus was the inspiration for Chemosh for me, though. However, the demon was nothing more than inspiration for the 'god'. Matthew L. Martin

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

zombiegleemax

Jan 22, 2005 13:39:28

Over on the D&D boards there's an argument going on over the relation between Takhisis/Tiamat and Bahamut/Paladine. Some of you guys may want to check it out. There's been a couple of weird theories that are being thrown around as well. The thread is here:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=366765

-Angus

jonesy

Jan 22, 2005 13:53:48

Umm...why? I didn't see anything even remotely worthy of the fourth millionth debate on the matter.

Nived

Jan 24, 2005 10:54:41

As said this pops up on these and the Dragonlance.com boards ever so often. I'll try to sum up a few points and a general concensus that I've generally seen drawn. Which again is by no means held by all of us, but many.

Simple answer: If you want them to be the same in your campaign go for it. But officially they are not connected.

Complicated answer:
Yes they have similarities and yes one set was used as a jumping off point for the other, but no they are not the same and in fact really can't be the same deities.

Tiamat and Bahamut are lesser deities... Paladine and Takhisis are greater dieties. With the first set only concerned with dragons and the second concerned with well... everything.

The planes aren't connected as far as core Dragonlance is concerned.

And the main reason is... highlight for spoilers.

Show

Paladine has sacrificed his godhood and is now a mortal and Takhisis has been stripped of her godhood turned into a mortal and killed. She's dead. Did Tiamat suddenly die in all the other campaign world at the end of the War of Souls? No because they're not the same diety.

Dragonhelm

Jan 24, 2005 11:00:12

And the main reason is... highlight for spoilers.
Show
Paladine has sacrificed his godhood and is now a mortal and Takhisis has been stripped of her godhood turned into a mortal and killed. She's dead. Did Tiamat suddenly die in all the other campaign world at the end of the War of Souls? No because they're not the same diety.

cam_banks

Jan 24, 2005 11:02:53

Ah, yes, but remember that the Dragonlance timeline is something like 55 years ahead of the Realms and Greyhawk. So in that timeline, the events of the War of Souls has not happened yet. ;)

All the more reason to just pretend none of the other settings have anything to do with Dragonlance, and stop keeping track of where they are in comparison to each other's timelines. ;)

Assuming that time passes the same for Krynn as it does for the other worlds, anyway.

Cheers,
Cam

Nived

Jan 24, 2005 11:09:07

And Dragonhelm points out the other reason I neverliked combined campaign worlds

zombiegleemax

Jan 24, 2005 11:30:42

I do not see why one would want to combine worlds. Wasnt it Ravenloft and Starjammer and Planescapes that began this whole debate?

brimstone

Jan 24, 2005 11:59:20

Assuming that time passes the same for Krynn as it does for the other worlds, anyway.

No doubt. I mean, do they have the same number of days in a year? Are their days both 24 hours long? Is Krynn's solar system traveling at the same speed through the cosmos as Toril's...because if they aren't, a second on Krynn won't be a second on Toril. So many things to consider. It's just best to keep them seperate.

Dragonhelm

Jan 24, 2005 12:32:26

All the more reason to just pretend none of the other settings have anything to do with Dragonlance, and stop keeping track of where they are in comparison to each other's timelines. ;)

When I did my Krynnspace guide, I wanted to bring it up to current date. I had to figure out a common starting point. Krynnspace's history is listed as future history in order to denote the current timeline in Spelljammer, as well as to show what would happen in the future.

As someone who is interested in both Dragonlance and Spelljammer, I like to keep track of where each setting lies in accordance to one another in the timeline.

Assuming that time passes the same for Krynn as it does for the other worlds, anyway.

But of course. ;)

#10

daedavias_dup

Jan 24, 2005 17:49:29

No doubt. I mean, do they have the same number of days in a year? Are their days both 24 hours long? Is Krynn's solar system traveling at the same speed through the cosmos as Toril's...because if they aren't, a second on Krynn won't be a second on Toril. So many things to consider. It's just best to keep them seperate.

A second is a universal measurement of time

. That is why a second for those of us that use the Solar dating system(most of the world) and those that use the Lunar dating system(a large portion of Arabics and other Middle-Easterners) still use the same derivatives of time.

However, in spite of that, years on Earth, Krynn, and Toril will all have different numbers of seconds, though. And that is what is important.

But yes, saying Takhisis and Tiamat are the same is like saying my brother and I are the same person. We both share similar appearances and other physical features, but we are still two completely different beings. People seem to think that the two dragon gods are the same as the Krynnish gods based on appearance alone, which is not a good assumption. Paladine and Takhisis's favored forms are not those of dragons, but of lesser races such as humans and elves.

#11

Matthew_L._Martin

Jan 24, 2005 19:33:46

I do not see why one would want to combine worlds. Wasnt it Ravenloft and Starjammer and Planescapes that began this whole debate?

Actually, it was the 1st Edition Manual of the Planes by Jeff Grubb that stated Takhisis and Tiamat to be the same entity.

(Krynn's extraplanar links go back to "A Stone's Throw Away", where the Magus summons a demon prince that, while not named, is pretty clearly Demogorgon.)

Matthew L. Martin

#12

brimstone

Jan 25, 2005 9:11:42

A second is a universal measurement of time . That is why a second for those of us that use the Solar dating system(most of the world) and those that use the Lunar dating system(a large portion of Arabics and other Middle-Easterners) still use the same derivatives of time.

Sorry dude, time is relative.

(pun intended) It is completly dependent on one's velocity.

But yes, saying Takhisis and Tiamat are the same is like saying my brother and I are the same person.

Well...I think it's all pretty subjective. Obviously, the new D&D stats for Tiamat and Bahamut are not Takhisis and Paladine, but that doesn't mean that they don't not have to be if you don't want them to be.

Me personally...I don't think Krynn should be connected to the other worlds officially...as it causes too many problems. But I have no problem with it in my own game or else where. And I like the homage given to Tiamat and Bahamut in TotL (where Takhisis and Paladine's Istarian names {I think} were Tii'Mhut and Ba'Mhutt or something like that)

So, while I don't think they should be the same officially...I do like that it's hinted at.

#13

daedavias_dup

Jan 25, 2005 9:29:38

Sorry dude, time is relative. (pun intended) It is completly dependent on one's velocity.

It is? *Curses!* Crap, I should have known that. Well, that is why I am a biologist not a physicist, I guess. Measurements of time are universal, but perception of time is not.

...back on topic, P does not = B, and Ta does not equal Ti.

#14

brimstone

Jan 25, 2005 9:36:29

It is? *Curses!* Crap, I should have known that. Well, that is why I am a biologist not a physicist, I guess. Measurements of time are universal, but perception of time is not.

...back on topic, P does not = B, and Ta does not equal Ti.

Yeah...I realized I had absolutely nothing on topic on that post...so I went back and added some discussion about P/B and Ta/Ti.

#15

zombiegleemax

Nov 27, 2005 19:32:57

it doesnt really matter if it does. I do not have it my self. The gods in my game are takhisis and paladine and no one else. but maybe in your game it may. Who really gives a care. It doesnt matter if they are or if they are not. because it is different for each game, and each Dungeon master.

#16

zombiegleemax

Nov 28, 2005 16:02:44

...hasn't Chemosh been compared to Orcus and Reorx to Moradin?

#17

zombiegleemax

Dec 08, 2005 14:13:58

I think that there is something in the Annotated Legends that kind of tells us where the gods got their names and some of their inspiration.

#18

zombiegleemax

Dec 12, 2005 15:48:41

Sorry dude, time is relative. (pun intended) It is completly dependent on one's velocity.Well...I think it's all pretty subjective. Obviously, the new D&D stats for Tiamat and Bahamut are not Takhisis and Paladine, but that doesn't mean that they don't not have to be if you don't want them to be.

Me personally...I don't think Krynn should be connected to the other worlds officially...as it causes too many problems. But I have no problem with it in my own game or else where. And I like the homage given to Tiamat and Bahamut in TotL (where Takhisis and Paladine's Istarian names {I think} were Tii'Mhut and Ba'Mhutt or something like that)

So, while I don't think they should be the same officially...I do like that it's hinted at.

Incorrect, time is universal. A second on earth is the same everywhere. The speed one is moving at has nothing whatsoever to do with time. A minute at 40 miles per hour is the same as if I'm standing perfectly still: AKA 60 seconds.

But thats off topic.

#19

brimstone

Dec 12, 2005 16:38:25

Incorrect, time is universal. A second on earth is the same everywhere. The speed one is moving at has nothing whatsoever to do with time. A minute at 40 miles per hour is the same as if I'm standing perfectly still: AKA 60 seconds.

LOL! Whatever dude. But, if you want to disagree/argue with Einstein and the Theory of Relativity, that's your perogative, I guess.

#20

ripvanwormer

Dec 13, 2005 20:32:26

Sword of Geddon, time actually moves a little slower the faster you go. Someone travelling at close to light speed would experience very little subjective time while slower travelers might experience centuries. Someone travelling at the speed of light would experience no time at all.

The speed of light, on the other hand, is the same relative to both travelers.

Relativity does all sorts of weird things.

#21

CzarGarrett

Dec 14, 2005 9:42:50

...hasn't Chemosh been compared to Orcus and Reorx to Moradin?

You can compare all kinds of Gods to one another.

Tyr out of FR and Heironous out of Greyhawk are similiar. Doesn't mean they are the same.

#22

Matthew_L._Martin

Dec 19, 2005 18:25:51

You can compare all kinds of Gods to one another.

Tyr out of FR and Heironous out of Greyhawk are similiar. Doesn't mean they are the same.

Jeff Grubb once confirmed that Orcus was the inspiration for Chemosh for me, though. However, the demon was nothing more than inspiration for the 'god'.

Matthew L. Martin