Throwing Sap - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Throwing Sap

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 23, 2005 19:29:59 After a session yesterday, my PCs demonstrating that the above menotioned weapon needs additional work.

As a demonstration consider this example:
Davo is a 1st level HG Brute who using point buy for attributes, buys an 18 Str before racial adjustment. Davo buys a Large throwing sap as his weapon and takes the exotic weapon prof to use it. Davo has a friend, Dano who can cast enlarge on him.

In combat, Davo rages, Dano casts enlarge on his companion making him and his weapon Huge. So now armed with his throwing sap he does 4d8+16 damage, with an average of 34! Since it is a reach weapon, his reach is 30 ft. Anyone hit must make a str check (at on average a DC of 39) or fall prone.

Even without the enlarge spell, the HG is doing 4d6+15 with a reach of 20ft. But at only moderatly higher levels, with additional magical buffs (Bulls Strength, Prayer and Haste to start with), weapon spec, and multiple attacks... let us just say it was a very scary round of combat for the cute and fluffy DM.

In my opinion, something more along the lines of a spiked chain (2d4 damage) with a bonus to trip attacks would be more balanced.

regards
#2
dawnstealer
Jan 24, 2005 16:18:52 Since no one else took a stab at this one, I will.

Despite the huge attribute enhancements, Dark Sun is aimed more at the player (and GM, as most of us on these boards are) who's looking for a challenge rather than a "power game." I've run into it, too, though (an englarged gladiator thri-kreen with four bastard swords comes to mind), so here's a few suggestions.

Half-Giant, right? Must mean he's awfully susceptible to psionics. Like, mind-control psionics. Like the kind that would make him turn that sap around and start downing his fellow players after he's enlarged. Which brings up another point: Enlarged Half-Giant? Sounds like an arrow-catcher to me - easy target. The player might not be so anxious to "size-up" if they die in the process.

Athas is a harsh world, and if players want to be cute, let them; just have them keep in mind that there are consequences for every action. Especially attention-drawing magic and psionics. Players like that are lucky they aren't swinging from the city walls by morning...
#3
superpriest
Jan 25, 2005 11:58:24 The weapon does look out of whack. The problem with its knockdown mechanic, as the OP says, is that it's based on damage, which can easily get out of hand. It's not OK to simply say, well, I'll charm whoever's using the throwing sap, and then he's not as overpowering. Much better to balance the weapon correctly.

First, the knockdown mechanic should be replaced by a trip that works after the opponent is hit. That's what it does, and the rules are already in place, so there's no need to invent more rules for it (like special cases for creatures immune to nonlethal damage).

Second, it's a melee weapon and, by the description, it doesn't seem like you actually throw it. So it has a bad name and an incorrect range, which should be --.

Next, the weapon must be compared to similar weapons in the PH. The closest one is the spiked chain (a powerful weapon, so the throwing sap should not be more powerful).

Compared to the spiked chain, the throwing sap has:
+Does 2d8 damage (vs. 2d4)
+Deals bludgeoning (vs. piercing; bludgeoning is superior, but this doesn't count for that much)
-Trip happens 2nd (spiked chains can make a trip, which makes the attack more valuable)
-No bonus to disarm (spiked chain has +2 bonus)
-Can't be finessed (spiked chain can)
-Deals nonlethal damage (vs. lethal)

To balance the throwing sap, see if it loses as much as it gains.

Making the trip happen 2nd is not very valuable; it could actually be an advantage for a character with Improved Trip. As it is, it amounts to striking an opponent before he gets his -4 AC penalty. So, without the feat, it falls into the "who cares" category, like the slight advantage it gets from its damage type.

With Improved Trip, an attack would mean hit-trip-hit, vs. the spiked chain's trip-hit. Perhaps this advantage compares to the advantage Finesse gives a spiked chain wielder; you have to spend a feat to get that benefit from the weapon.

What's left is a boost of 2 damage die types, balanced with dealing nonlethal damage and not having a bonus to disarm. You can't balance the damage with a near-negligible extra ability like +2 to disarm. So what effect does dealing nonlethal damage as the normal form of damage have? Against living creatures, the only effect it has is that they can heal lethal and nonlethal damage simultaneously. This pretty much only matters against divine spellcasters and some psions.

Fixing: The damage has to drop to 2d4. To then make the weapon as good as the spiked chain, you can add an ability similar in power to "+2 to disarm," such as "+2 to trip." For characters without Improved Trip, it remains slightly inferior to the spiked chain, as it deals nonlethal damage, but this may be a good thing; the chain is considered really really good. Big characters with a throwing sap will still do crazy trips, especially if they have Improved Trip.

EDIT: Re-read OP's comments, accounted for nonlethal damage.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jan 25, 2005 16:59:49
Half-Giant, right? Must mean he's awfully susceptible to psionics. Like, mind-control psionics. Like the kind that would make him turn that sap around and start downing his fellow players after he's enlarged. Which brings up another point: Enlarged Half-Giant? Sounds like an arrow-catcher to me - easy target. The player might not be so anxious to "size-up" if they die in the process.

If I implemented the above, the PCs reponse would be to cast preotection from chaos/evil/good/law upon the HG to make him immune to mind control, and to cast invisible to avoid ranged attacks, since see invisibility only works to 60ft (charage range).

This does not solve the problem, merely compounds it as both sides look for the next weapon to use against the other sides latest tactic.

Weapons should be inherently balanced. That is why the one handed weapons that do d10 damage require a feat to use etc.

Making the throwing sap do 2d4 damage, and if it hits allow the character to make a trip attack would be far better option. With metal so rare, making the throwing sap mechanically identical to the spiked chain would also work.
#5
dawnstealer
Jan 25, 2005 19:05:53 Sounds like power-gaming. Basically, you could completely toss out the throwing sap, and it wouldn't make a difference: they'd find something else. Sure, the mechanics are a little goofy (I don't think any of my players have discovered throwing saps, yet, but might after this post), but as the GM, your job is to make sure it's fun and balanced - if the PCs just want to beat crap up, oblige them.

What I was trying to get at in the previous post was to be creative. Mind-control is one idea; there are many. What if the target is non-corporal (ie. ghost, shadow giant, etc - if they can cast invisibility, they shouldn't be facing your basic Gith, anyway)? What if the target is a noble, with connections or bodyguards that don't particularly like to be sapped?

In short, what kind of GM are you going to be? If you're fine with your players exploiting the rules, then this shouldn't be a problem if everyone's having fun. If, on the other hand, you're finding yourself in a 3e "Bag O' Rats" rules problem, work it out with your players or figure a way around. I can just offer suggestions - take 'em or leave 'em.
#6
superpriest
Jan 25, 2005 20:13:36 Just because some players will look for unbalanced items doesn't mean that the people who wrote them shouldn't correct them. You can't say the item is fine just because a DM could choose not to allow it or to punish his players for using it.

The correct thing to do is what cute_n_fluffy did: post in the forums to get the attention of someone at Athas.org (me). I will now put this in my to-be-errata'd file, and with luck someone will make the change.
#7
dawnstealer
Jan 25, 2005 20:41:38 Never said that was the case: just suggested a quick option that didn't require a change to the written rules.
#8
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jan 26, 2005 14:03:08 I'm on it.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jan 26, 2005 14:41:50
I will now put this in my to-be-errata'd file, and with luck someone will make the change.

Thanking you.
#10
zombiegleemax
Jan 27, 2005 2:48:35 If the weapon is out of whack, change it (never had anyone using that strategy, but the changes proposed above will surely keep anyone from attempting it at a later time). If its not the weapon as much as it is the player's techniques, then alter the spells to be more in line. Remember that most every weapon, spell, item, and technique are based simply upon the core classes and races. There's no large races with reach advantages that overpower the enlarge spell in core to balance against, so there's really nothing wrong with saying that its simply too potent as is under the circumstances of gaming on Athas. The quickest route is to change the lvl that the spell is available at, raising it a few to keep it more in line.

If its player strategy though that is giving you a problem, then simply remember that anything they can do can be done to them as well. Don't be afraid to turn their techniques against them. If they're overly crafty, have an escapee in the next battle who spreads their ingenuity throughout the tablelands.

Don't be afraid to change the rules. Their yours to change. Its your game, not WOTC's, not Athas.org's, and surely not mine. I'd have had an invisible rogue jab a pin coated with lethal poison into the half-giant's waterskin with the rest of the group seemingly routes, only to ambush the party a few hours later . . . but that's just me.
#11
superpriest
Jan 27, 2005 8:33:32 I also forgot that Enlarge Person doesn't work on nonhumanoids. This changes nothing about what I said about the weapon, but it's something the OP needs to know.
#12
Torack
Jan 27, 2005 10:21:53 ...actually it does. Using the rules presented in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Half-Giants are considered to be of the Giant-Type, not the Humanoid. As such they are immune to the effects of an Enlarge-spell.

Athas.org supports this change...eah, that is the Half-Giants as Giant-Type, not the whole medium-sized but treat as large deal.
#13
dawnstealer
Jan 27, 2005 11:12:30 Since the damage is being changed anyway, the damage on a throwing sap is excessive (I'm thankful my players stuck to their bone short swords and obsidian daggers - one in particular). Still, in my opinion, the problem is as Mach says: the issue is with the technique and not the weapon, hence the reason for my original solution.

For example, an enlarged thri-kreen could wield four two-handed swords, each in one hand given its now-larger size. Easiest fix, again as Mach said, would be to simply state that enlarge only works on human-sized and humanoid targets. Keep in mind that there are no 13-foot tall humanoid PC races in any other setting, and Wizards doesn't maintain Dark Sun, so why would they consider it?
#14
superpriest
Jan 27, 2005 12:04:06 What I said is that the rules already do limit Enlarge Person to humanoids.

The only humanoid Large or larger in Dark Sun is the t'ulk, which should probably be a monstrous humanoid to go along with the unwritten rule that limits humanoids to Medium or smaller.
#15
zombiegleemax
Jan 27, 2005 14:53:42 The real life example was a 13th level character polymorphing into a braxat (which has around the same str bonus as a raging half giant). I forgot enlarge only works on humanoids, although I still think 4d6+15 at 20ft reach is excessive at 1st level.

Thus, my objections to the weapon's mechanics remain unchanged.

Using tactics to fix unbalanced game mechanics is folly and leads to games breaking. Using tactics to provide entertainment, challenge and a unique gaming experience is what DMing combats is all about. I much prefer to do the later than be forced to resort to the former.
#16
superpriest
Jan 27, 2005 17:37:38
Using tactics to fix unbalanced game mechanics is folly and leads to games breaking. Using tactics to provide entertainment, challenge and a unique gaming experience is what DMing combats is all about. I much prefer to do the later than be forced to resort to the former.

Yep, already agreed with you there.
#17
zombiegleemax
Jan 30, 2005 15:12:15 Greetings,

I usually only read the wonderful posts and threads that all of your DS players/DM's type up but I feel that I must voice my opinion on this thread.

Just last night one of my groups players that in my game had decided to buy the Throwing Sap since looking at the stats and considering what he is.

The player is a lvl 3 HG/lvl 3 Brute. He has a 28 strength....

I was presented with the scenario when Running "Tyrian Conspiracy" last night during the fight with Detari the Halfling. For those of you that dont know the NPC Detari is a 5 ranger/10 Assasin with Spider Climbing boot and a bag o' poison to play with. This scenario I ran in my head for over a week trying to make the most out of this deadly combat. My group is a battle hardened group that has no problem taking care of themselves and this scenario would have been defenetly a challege for them but not impossible.

When the Halfling was in range of the Half giant, the half-giant player used his throwing sap and did 38 points of damage to it no problem in one hit. Secondly, Detari who has lots of HP's 105 at the time had to make a Fortitude test DC 44....from that one hit....I needed to roll a 35 on a 20 sided die.....:0

I cant stress enough that the Throwing Sap SERIOUSLY needs to be altered in some large fashion. I dont mind weapons that have special effects to them, I just seriously think that the person/people who made this weapon didnt think about a Half-giant using it...

Also, when u have a HG using that weapon in the first place and someone steps into his threatened area (10 ft) he gets an attack of opportunity with that weapon....

Last but not least....the character playing the HG has Great Cleave now as of last night.....omg.

-introneurotic
#18
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jan 30, 2005 15:39:55 It is being altered!
#19
superpriest
Jan 30, 2005 15:50:10 It's going to be a balanced weapon (as long as you think the spiked chain is balanced). However, if you have a PC with 28 Str, he's still going to kick ass with the weapon. Yes, the current wording is bad, but a 28 Str will make trips impossible to beat.
#20
Pennarin
Jan 31, 2005 0:33:47 ...which is true of any weapon that allows a trip attempt.
#21
superpriest
Jan 31, 2005 8:11:01 Right, that's why I said the weapon would be balanced, but the character would still cause him problems.
#22
dawnstealer
Jan 31, 2005 11:10:41 Which goes back to my original point...

Yes, the mechanics on that particular weapon are unbalanced, but a player who's looking to "bend" the rules will find a way to bend the rules. I have one in my group - I know. I think it's fun and challenging to try to outfox him or to create adventures where his latest twisting of the rules doesn't apply. In cases like the throwing sap, I just do what I assume the Athas.org guys are about to do, but the fact remains if the player is going through all that much to cause more damage (Polymorph into braxat, take throwing sap, have enlarge cast on you, etc), they will find another way.

If you don't like dealing with tactics (it escalates in your campaigns or whatever), then maybe try explaining to the player the imbalance. As a GM of over 20 years, I usually do that by example, but you're apparently different in that aspect. Why not just tell your player to keep in in reason? Or, if it doesn't bother you or the players, just let them do it?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 23, 2005 19:29:59	After a session yesterday, my PCs demonstrating that the above menotioned weapon needs additional work. As a demonstration consider this example: Davo is a 1st level HG Brute who using point buy for attributes, buys an 18 Str before racial adjustment. Davo buys a Large throwing sap as his weapon and takes the exotic weapon prof to use it. Davo has a friend, Dano who can cast enlarge on him. In combat, Davo rages, Dano casts enlarge on his companion making him and his weapon Huge. So now armed with his throwing sap he does 4d8+16 damage, with an average of 34! Since it is a reach weapon, his reach is 30 ft. Anyone hit must make a str check (at on average a DC of 39) or fall prone. Even without the enlarge spell, the HG is doing 4d6+15 with a reach of 20ft. But at only moderatly higher levels, with additional magical buffs (Bulls Strength, Prayer and Haste to start with), weapon spec, and multiple attacks... let us just say it was a very scary round of combat for the cute and fluffy DM. In my opinion, something more along the lines of a spiked chain (2d4 damage) with a bonus to trip attacks would be more balanced. regards
#2 dawnstealer Jan 24, 2005 16:18:52	Since no one else took a stab at this one, I will. Despite the huge attribute enhancements, Dark Sun is aimed more at the player (and GM, as most of us on these boards are) who's looking for a challenge rather than a "power game." I've run into it, too, though (an englarged gladiator thri-kreen with four bastard swords comes to mind), so here's a few suggestions. Half-Giant, right? Must mean he's awfully susceptible to psionics. Like, mind-control psionics. Like the kind that would make him turn that sap around and start downing his fellow players after he's enlarged. Which brings up another point: Enlarged Half-Giant? Sounds like an arrow-catcher to me - easy target. The player might not be so anxious to "size-up" if they die in the process. Athas is a harsh world, and if players want to be cute, let them; just have them keep in mind that there are consequences for every action. Especially attention-drawing magic and psionics. Players like that are lucky they aren't swinging from the city walls by morning...
#3 superpriest Jan 25, 2005 11:58:24	The weapon does look out of whack. The problem with its knockdown mechanic, as the OP says, is that it's based on damage, which can easily get out of hand. It's not OK to simply say, well, I'll charm whoever's using the throwing sap, and then he's not as overpowering. Much better to balance the weapon correctly. First, the knockdown mechanic should be replaced by a trip that works after the opponent is hit. That's what it does, and the rules are already in place, so there's no need to invent more rules for it (like special cases for creatures immune to nonlethal damage). Second, it's a melee weapon and, by the description, it doesn't seem like you actually throw it. So it has a bad name and an incorrect range, which should be --. Next, the weapon must be compared to similar weapons in the PH. The closest one is the spiked chain (a powerful weapon, so the throwing sap should not be more powerful). Compared to the spiked chain, the throwing sap has: +Does 2d8 damage (vs. 2d4) +Deals bludgeoning (vs. piercing; bludgeoning is superior, but this doesn't count for that much) -Trip happens 2nd (spiked chains can make a trip, which makes the attack more valuable) -No bonus to disarm (spiked chain has +2 bonus) -Can't be finessed (spiked chain can) -Deals nonlethal damage (vs. lethal) To balance the throwing sap, see if it loses as much as it gains. Making the trip happen 2nd is not very valuable; it could actually be an advantage for a character with Improved Trip. As it is, it amounts to striking an opponent before he gets his -4 AC penalty. So, without the feat, it falls into the "who cares" category, like the slight advantage it gets from its damage type. With Improved Trip, an attack would mean hit-trip-hit, vs. the spiked chain's trip-hit. Perhaps this advantage compares to the advantage Finesse gives a spiked chain wielder; you have to spend a feat to get that benefit from the weapon. What's left is a boost of 2 damage die types, balanced with dealing nonlethal damage and not having a bonus to disarm. You can't balance the damage with a near-negligible extra ability like +2 to disarm. So what effect does dealing nonlethal damage as the normal form of damage have? Against living creatures, the only effect it has is that they can heal lethal and nonlethal damage simultaneously. This pretty much only matters against divine spellcasters and some psions. Fixing: The damage has to drop to 2d4. To then make the weapon as good as the spiked chain, you can add an ability similar in power to "+2 to disarm," such as "+2 to trip." For characters without Improved Trip, it remains slightly inferior to the spiked chain, as it deals nonlethal damage, but this may be a good thing; the chain is considered really really good. Big characters with a throwing sap will still do crazy trips, especially if they have Improved Trip. EDIT: Re-read OP's comments, accounted for nonlethal damage.
#4 zombiegleemax Jan 25, 2005 16:59:49	Half-Giant, right? Must mean he's awfully susceptible to psionics. Like, mind-control psionics. Like the kind that would make him turn that sap around and start downing his fellow players after he's enlarged. Which brings up another point: Enlarged Half-Giant? Sounds like an arrow-catcher to me - easy target. The player might not be so anxious to "size-up" if they die in the process. If I implemented the above, the PCs reponse would be to cast preotection from chaos/evil/good/law upon the HG to make him immune to mind control, and to cast invisible to avoid ranged attacks, since see invisibility only works to 60ft (charage range). This does not solve the problem, merely compounds it as both sides look for the next weapon to use against the other sides latest tactic. Weapons should be inherently balanced. That is why the one handed weapons that do d10 damage require a feat to use etc. Making the throwing sap do 2d4 damage, and if it hits allow the character to make a trip attack would be far better option. With metal so rare, making the throwing sap mechanically identical to the spiked chain would also work.
#5 dawnstealer Jan 25, 2005 19:05:53	Sounds like power-gaming. Basically, you could completely toss out the throwing sap, and it wouldn't make a difference: they'd find something else. Sure, the mechanics are a little goofy (I don't think any of my players have discovered throwing saps, yet, but might after this post), but as the GM, your job is to make sure it's fun and balanced - if the PCs just want to beat crap up, oblige them. What I was trying to get at in the previous post was to be creative. Mind-control is one idea; there are many. What if the target is non-corporal (ie. ghost, shadow giant, etc - if they can cast invisibility, they shouldn't be facing your basic Gith, anyway)? What if the target is a noble, with connections or bodyguards that don't particularly like to be sapped? In short, what kind of GM are you going to be? If you're fine with your players exploiting the rules, then this shouldn't be a problem if everyone's having fun. If, on the other hand, you're finding yourself in a 3e "Bag O' Rats" rules problem, work it out with your players or figure a way around. I can just offer suggestions - take 'em or leave 'em.
#6 superpriest Jan 25, 2005 20:13:36	Just because some players will look for unbalanced items doesn't mean that the people who wrote them shouldn't correct them. You can't say the item is fine just because a DM could choose not to allow it or to punish his players for using it. The correct thing to do is what cute_n_fluffy did: post in the forums to get the attention of someone at Athas.org (me). I will now put this in my to-be-errata'd file, and with luck someone will make the change.
#7 dawnstealer Jan 25, 2005 20:41:38	Never said that was the case: just suggested a quick option that didn't require a change to the written rules.
#8 jon_oracle_of_athas Jan 26, 2005 14:03:08	I'm on it.
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 26, 2005 14:41:50	I will now put this in my to-be-errata'd file, and with luck someone will make the change. Thanking you.
#10 zombiegleemax Jan 27, 2005 2:48:35	If the weapon is out of whack, change it (never had anyone using that strategy, but the changes proposed above will surely keep anyone from attempting it at a later time). If its not the weapon as much as it is the player's techniques, then alter the spells to be more in line. Remember that most every weapon, spell, item, and technique are based simply upon the core classes and races. There's no large races with reach advantages that overpower the enlarge spell in core to balance against, so there's really nothing wrong with saying that its simply too potent as is under the circumstances of gaming on Athas. The quickest route is to change the lvl that the spell is available at, raising it a few to keep it more in line. If its player strategy though that is giving you a problem, then simply remember that anything they can do can be done to them as well. Don't be afraid to turn their techniques against them. If they're overly crafty, have an escapee in the next battle who spreads their ingenuity throughout the tablelands. Don't be afraid to change the rules. Their yours to change. Its your game, not WOTC's, not Athas.org's, and surely not mine. I'd have had an invisible rogue jab a pin coated with lethal poison into the half-giant's waterskin with the rest of the group seemingly routes, only to ambush the party a few hours later . . . but that's just me.
#11 superpriest Jan 27, 2005 8:33:32	I also forgot that Enlarge Person doesn't work on nonhumanoids. This changes nothing about what I said about the weapon, but it's something the OP needs to know.
#12 Torack Jan 27, 2005 10:21:53	...actually it does. Using the rules presented in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, Half-Giants are considered to be of the Giant-Type, not the Humanoid. As such they are immune to the effects of an Enlarge-spell. Athas.org supports this change...eah, that is the Half-Giants as Giant-Type, not the whole medium-sized but treat as large deal.
#13 dawnstealer Jan 27, 2005 11:12:30	Since the damage is being changed anyway, the damage on a throwing sap is excessive (I'm thankful my players stuck to their bone short swords and obsidian daggers - one in particular). Still, in my opinion, the problem is as Mach says: the issue is with the technique and not the weapon, hence the reason for my original solution. For example, an enlarged thri-kreen could wield four two-handed swords, each in one hand given its now-larger size. Easiest fix, again as Mach said, would be to simply state that enlarge only works on human-sized and humanoid targets. Keep in mind that there are no 13-foot tall humanoid PC races in any other setting, and Wizards doesn't maintain Dark Sun, so why would they consider it?
#14 superpriest Jan 27, 2005 12:04:06	What I said is that the rules already do limit Enlarge Person to humanoids. The only humanoid Large or larger in Dark Sun is the t'ulk, which should probably be a monstrous humanoid to go along with the unwritten rule that limits humanoids to Medium or smaller.
#15 zombiegleemax Jan 27, 2005 14:53:42	The real life example was a 13th level character polymorphing into a braxat (which has around the same str bonus as a raging half giant). I forgot enlarge only works on humanoids, although I still think 4d6+15 at 20ft reach is excessive at 1st level. Thus, my objections to the weapon's mechanics remain unchanged. Using tactics to fix unbalanced game mechanics is folly and leads to games breaking. Using tactics to provide entertainment, challenge and a unique gaming experience is what DMing combats is all about. I much prefer to do the later than be forced to resort to the former.
#16 superpriest Jan 27, 2005 17:37:38	Using tactics to fix unbalanced game mechanics is folly and leads to games breaking. Using tactics to provide entertainment, challenge and a unique gaming experience is what DMing combats is all about. I much prefer to do the later than be forced to resort to the former. Yep, already agreed with you there.
#17 zombiegleemax Jan 30, 2005 15:12:15	Greetings, I usually only read the wonderful posts and threads that all of your DS players/DM's type up but I feel that I must voice my opinion on this thread. Just last night one of my groups players that in my game had decided to buy the Throwing Sap since looking at the stats and considering what he is. The player is a lvl 3 HG/lvl 3 Brute. He has a 28 strength.... I was presented with the scenario when Running "Tyrian Conspiracy" last night during the fight with Detari the Halfling. For those of you that dont know the NPC Detari is a 5 ranger/10 Assasin with Spider Climbing boot and a bag o' poison to play with. This scenario I ran in my head for over a week trying to make the most out of this deadly combat. My group is a battle hardened group that has no problem taking care of themselves and this scenario would have been defenetly a challege for them but not impossible. When the Halfling was in range of the Half giant, the half-giant player used his throwing sap and did 38 points of damage to it no problem in one hit. Secondly, Detari who has lots of HP's 105 at the time had to make a Fortitude test DC 44....from that one hit....I needed to roll a 35 on a 20 sided die.....:0 I cant stress enough that the Throwing Sap SERIOUSLY needs to be altered in some large fashion. I dont mind weapons that have special effects to them, I just seriously think that the person/people who made this weapon didnt think about a Half-giant using it... Also, when u have a HG using that weapon in the first place and someone steps into his threatened area (10 ft) he gets an attack of opportunity with that weapon.... Last but not least....the character playing the HG has Great Cleave now as of last night.....omg. -introneurotic
#18 jon_oracle_of_athas Jan 30, 2005 15:39:55	It is being altered!
#19 superpriest Jan 30, 2005 15:50:10	It's going to be a balanced weapon (as long as you think the spiked chain is balanced). However, if you have a PC with 28 Str, he's still going to kick ass with the weapon. Yes, the current wording is bad, but a 28 Str will make trips impossible to beat.
#20 Pennarin Jan 31, 2005 0:33:47	...which is true of any weapon that allows a trip attempt.
#21 superpriest Jan 31, 2005 8:11:01	Right, that's why I said the weapon would be balanced, but the character would still cause him problems.
#22 dawnstealer Jan 31, 2005 11:10:41	Which goes back to my original point... Yes, the mechanics on that particular weapon are unbalanced, but a player who's looking to "bend" the rules will find a way to bend the rules. I have one in my group - I know. I think it's fun and challenging to try to outfox him or to create adventures where his latest twisting of the rules doesn't apply. In cases like the throwing sap, I just do what I assume the Athas.org guys are about to do, but the fact remains if the player is going through all that much to cause more damage (Polymorph into braxat, take throwing sap, have enlarge cast on you, etc), they will find another way. If you don't like dealing with tactics (it escalates in your campaigns or whatever), then maybe try explaining to the player the imbalance. As a GM of over 20 years, I usually do that by example, but you're apparently different in that aspect. Why not just tell your player to keep in in reason? Or, if it doesn't bother you or the players, just let them do it?