Without a great deal of exaggeration, I find RoD to be one of the most thought provoking and potentially influential additions to the (A)D&D ouvre in a long, long time. And in some of these most exciting areas, it is Greyhawk by direct reference (or at least inference)!
RoD is a "race book" that discusses humans, half-elves & orcs and the new Illumian race (the ones with the glowing "stock-ticker" around their heads). The half-elves & orcs are forgettable. The "crunch" of RoD is forgettable. It is the meta-game concepts that are explored, I will dare use the term "philosophy," that is memorable and potential stunning.
In very brief, RoD offers -
(1) A discussion of a urbanization, city-building, as a most prototypical "human" trait, along with a god of urbanization (Urbanus);
(2) A "god of humans," as Moradin is a "god of dwarves" etc.;
(3) This greater god, Zarus, is compared to Pelor and described as a potential rival;
(4) Zarus aligns Neutral Evil!
(5) A creation mythology, with a fantasy "adam & eve" and a fantasy "garden of eden" are described;
(6) A tie-in to the language primeval of Mathmaghama in the Yatil Mountains (College of Wizardry) is suggested;
(7) A tie-in to St. Cuthbert is suggested;
And I could go on, both in a listing and in a discussion of the potential implications of the items listed but I frankly need to calm down to best compose my thoughts and right now I am very excited! And you thought my post today were because I'd gone off my meds. ;)
RoD is the most philosophcally rich book WotC has produced in years. That it is rife with Greyhawk references only makes it better.
WARNING - If all you do is look RoD over in the game store, you may easily decide there is nothing there. You have to read this book to appreciate it. Scanning it, you may miss things. I did, but something made me buy it anyway.
WARNING - The first time you read this book you may think it contains nothing very special and some significant junk. To appreciate this book, you need to be familiar enough with it to start making connections, both internally and externally. I finished my third read of the book today. Each time I have read it, I have become more and more convinced that this is the most amazing product of the WotC era, in terms of the sheer intellectual and philosophical puzzles presented, as well as much new development of heretofore unknown or under developed concepts.
The Greyhawk material, like all in 3rd Edition, you have to hunt for. But RoD is richly rewarding. I keep finding new things that surprise me with each read. This is a book to be "studied" and I do not throw that term around when it is applied to a mere game. There is enough philosophical grist here to warrant a complete discussion list.
I give this book an 9 out of 10 for general (A)D&D content and a 7 out of 10 for GH content. I am just blown away!
Don't look for crunch or immediately useful nformation, but if you want a book that can make you think and keep you thinking, that rewards patience, RoD has you covered.
DAMN!
GVD ::alcohol is a seditive right?:: ;)
Personally, I found the Illumians to be yet another tool for powergamers. The rest of the book had vague references to GH but I am tempted to say "so what?"
Many WotC books can claim the same thing, yet do they add something significant to GH? No.
Instead of providing us with yet another myth and yet other gods, why not delve deeper into the human subraces of the Flanaess, the antagonism between, say, the Suel and Oeridian pantheons, or the Flan myth of the creation of Oerth?
There is so much that still needs to be written about GH, damn it!
Heck, WotC can't even claim it's providing material compatible with its other star settings (FR/Eberron) since deities such as Urbanus do not exist there! And in a setting such as FR, the addition of a new major deity wouldn't go unnoticed.
) and I can't say that I found it worth buying.As Mortepierre said, the references to Greyhawk are vague and not very long; I personally could not use them IMC.
But that, however, depends on the kind of campaign you're doing and the infp your searching - to me personally, Frostburn for example was a far greater help than, let's say, complete adventure
RoD may be an interesting alternative for a Greyhawker who is chosing between RoS, CA and let's say the Planar Handbook, but if you're a beginner/mediocre DM, you will get far more using another default RPG book... even the DL campaign book provided me with more inspiration for Greyhawk than RoD did...
It's a nice book, like the upcoming Races of the Wild, but I'd never spend 30 $ for it...
Anyway, just my opinion.
If you like the book so much, would you like to explain what kind of ideas you got from it/how you use them in your game?
Maybe that would change our opinions.
Here's an example of what I consider to be good 'Greyhawk' content: Frostburn. Why? Because I'm about to run G2. It has 3.5 writeups of several monsters from that old module that have never appeared in 3rd edition(ice toads, yeti, white pudding) plus extra stuff on frost giants, expanded rules on cold weather, etc. This is great stuff for my particular Greyhawk game, while others might see nothing Greyhawk related in it.
BTW, was Frostburn the first in that line or are there other modules?
Indeed, Frostburn was the best book from WotC I personally have ever seen. (with the exception of Ghostwalk maybe, but that's a matter of taste...) Iexpect the other *regional environment* companions to be as good as that!
BTW, was Frostburn the first in that line or are there other modules?
Personally, I would rather point to the Draconomicon as the best 3E book but that's a matter of taste.
As for Frostburn, it is indeed only the first of a new series. Look for Sandstorm in March and for Maelstrom in August. I am looking forward to the former due to my PC heading out to the Bright Desert soon... :evillaugh
Personally, I found the Illumians to be yet another tool for powergamers.
I think it's distasteful that WotC feels the need to create new races to justify the creation of their "Races of..." books. It ranks a close second to the proliferation of prestige classes on my list of pet peeves about D&D. If WotC wants to make up new races, they can put them in the next monster book. Of course, that's just my opinion....
Sorry to contradict you in your enthusiasm, GVD, but truly, I read Races of Destiny with much attention . . . and I can't say that I found it worth buying. . . . If you like the book so much, would you like to explain what kind of ideas you got from it/how you use them in your game?
Maybe that would change our opinions.
Well, I'm not working for Wotc Marketing, so mind changing is not my thought.
I was instead thinking about alerting people to a good book, albeit unusual, that might be overlooked. I will share with you an example of some of what I find so interesting.
First, a caveat. If anyone is looking for cool new "crunch," Races of Destiny will certainly disappoint.
There is, however, a philosophical (in a gaming way) undercurrent that is very thought provoking, IMO. Races of Destiny will challenge the way you think about humanity in the game, whether you ultimately agree or disagree.
I will take _ONE_ example, that I am happily grappling with. Zarus, the God of Humanity (in the way Moradin is the God of Dwarves, etc.), is a greater god who aligns Neutral Evil. That by itself is stunning in its potential ramifications. How does Moradin align? Corelian Larethian? And now the God of Humans is Neutral Evil? What's up with that? Sure you can shrug it off as fluff or filler but if you choose to engage the notion, there is a potential to radically alter how humans are seen and presented in the game. But there is more.
Zarus, as he is discussed in the context of Pelor, is Greyhawk to the bone. A new greater deity growing into rivalary with Pelor? Whoa! If you engage the thought, it has potentially huge ramifications for the setting.
And perhaps the most obvious criticism - so where's this "new" greater deity of "humanity" pop-up from to be mentioned in the same breath with Pelor? - is actually no criticism but another fascinating puzzle. Obviously, IMO, Zarus is from outside the Flanaess, as he has no pre-existing context within the Flanaess. OUTSIDE THE FLANAESS? Now, another fascinating door is opened. Where? How? Etc.
And reading about Zarus, one picks up on a certain montheistic feel. MONOTHESISM! In Greythawk? Coming from a neutral evil deity who is the ONLY god with humanity as his portfolio? And who is being described as a rival to Pelor? The mind reels at the prospects!
This is GREAT stuff, IMO. It makes you think if you do more than just shrug and dismiss it. The questions. The thoughts. The possibilities.
And this is just a brief look at Zarus. Not even complete! And then there is _ALL_ the rest of the book!
Yes. The crunch sucks. Yes. You will get no immediate play value. But you get a motherlode of challenging ideas to ponder. They may wind up being so much hot air - or not. The ideas in Races of Destiny are not certain to be dismissed immediately or with time, however much individual DMs may do so.
Is Races of Destiny to everyone's taste? Obviously, no. Is Races of Destiny obviously flawed in its rules crunch? Obviously, yes (IMO). But the subtext, the undercurrent of thought is, IMO, amazing. I have never with a Wotc product felt "challenged" in my thinking about the game before. For that alone, I give Races of Destiny high marks.
And I am not sure that I will give up on the poor crunch either, longer term. I agree the Illumians strike one as outlandish at first blush. But when read in context with the College of Wizardry (something I have only done peripherally), I am not certain that the Illumians are the total loss they first appear. And there are further connections like this suggested.
This goes to my comment that Races of Destiny reads provocatively internally within its covers BUT also reads provocatively when read in the context of the (A)D&D opus and the GH opus.
IMO, this is a thought provoking book that may have a huge potential impact on the game and GH, more specifically.
But, you should not buy this book for the rules crunch. If you buy it, you buy it to read and ponder.
I wish every gaming product made me think the way Races of Destiny has.
GVD
PS - I agree that Frostburn is a towering success. I love it! But it did not make me think in the way Races of Destiny makes me think. Frostburn is practically a masterpiece, but philosophically, it does not attempt or provoke much. I think both books are outstanding, but in different ways.
Personally, I would rather point to the Draconomicon as the best 3E book but that's a matter of taste.
As for Frostburn, it is indeed only the first of a new series. Look for Sandstorm in March and for Maelstrom in August. I am looking forward to the former due to my PC heading out to the Bright Desert soon... :evillaugh
Indeed, every book seems to have a different impact on every reader - I personally don't like to deal with dragons in my campaigns (though I am currently a Dragonlance DM!), so I didn't get Draconomicon nor plan to do so
at least for the full price. My favourite 3e book, Ghostwalk, however, is considered pretty mediocre by most gamers, while I find inspiration for my home games on almost every page.
Frostburn was exactly what I was searching for: One single book I could lay besides my DM homework while I plan a *frosty* campaign where I normally had to consult at least 10 books!
If Maelstrom and Sandstorm are of the same quality, I even may explore desert regions or aquatic campaigns as a DM, something I never dared until now because good resources for it where hard to find if you were a DM that focused on *temperate weather* lands.
Both for my upcoming Brithright campaign set in Rjurik and my possible attempt to play *Against the Giants again, the book is extremely valuable!I think it's distasteful that WotC feels the need to create new races to justify the creation of their "Races of..." books. It ranks a close second to the proliferation of prestige classes on my list of pet peeves about D&D.
Very right, Brom. We need game support that makes gaming easier for players and DM, not more stuff to complicate it.
...
Zarus, as he is discussed in the context of Pelor, is Greyhawk to the bone. A new greater deity growing into rivalary with Pelor? Whoa! If you engage the thought, it has potentially huge ramifications for the setting.
And perhaps the most obvious criticism - so where's this "new" greater deity of "humanity" pop-up from to be mentioned in the same breath with Pelor? - is actually no criticism but another fascinating puzzle. Obviously, IMO, Zarus is from outside the Flanaess, as he has no pre-existing context within the Flanaess. OUTSIDE THE FLANAESS? Now, another fascinating door is opened. Where? How? Etc.
...
A nice idea, would even fit for *Chainmail*, where indeed, most people tend to be of evil alignment...
*Don't forget that there already WERE illustrations of the lands of western Oerik, sadly, noone seemed to like them...
*Could you give us a couple other examples GVD? Like did it's treatment of half-orcs, or the town setting come off as particulary Greyhawkian? Where would you place the illumians in the Flaness?
Sure.
Half-orcs have been treated in a number of d20 products and in those products half-orcs are generally handled better than in Races of Destiny (RoD). Are RoD's half-orcs particularly "Grey?" I have to answer with a firm - maybe. ;)
If you just look at the basic half-orc section of RoD, I think it is pretty forgettable. However, in the monster manual section a new type of "half-orc" is introduced - the Shararak (sp?) (pardon my spelling but I do not have the book in front of me). This new half-orc is directly tied to the pseudo "garden of eden" myth that is earlier presented in RoD.
There are so many interesting parts to RoD (from a gaming-philosophical standpoint, not rules crunch) that I have not had time to track everything down. However, because of this connection and the potential case for a Greyhawk "garden of eden," there is the potential for RoD to have something meaningful to say about half-orcs within Greyhawk. So, I have to say "maybe." But that, again, is an example of how RoD can make you ponder, no matter how you eventually come out on the issue. I look forward to digging deeper into the half-orcs from RoD as, more generally, I like half-orcs in a game.
The Illumians in Greyhawk are one of the biggest puzzles of RoD for a Greyhawk DM, IMO. Clearly, there is a connection via the St. Cuthbert and Vecna references. The Plane of Shadow material also has a Greyhawk resonance. Those are the two things that, without the book in front of me, stick out in my mind but they are enough for a Greyhawk pedigree for the Illumians.
However, the most striking connection is potentially with Mt. Mathmagahma (sp), which is located in the northwest Yatil Mountains and is described in the College of Wizardry (CW) product. CW introduces the concept of a primeval language that is magical in its very nature, with transformative properties. This idea has been further developed/revisited in Tome and Blood and the Complete Arcane. Of course, the Illumians are and guard the secret of the Word Made Flesh. The Word Made Flesh and the language primevel have obvious similarities. But are they actually similar? Truth to tell, I have not read CW in so long, and have not had a chance to fully reread it yet, that I cannot answer the question with any certainty. The prospect is intriguing, however.
If the link between CW and RoD can be maintained, the the Illumians could be confidently placed in the Northwest Flanaess. That seems the most "obvious" lead. They could, however, be placed nearly anywhere because of the secretive nature of the Illumian cabals (remembering that the Illumians can "douse" or "turn off" their sigils so they are not immediately identifiable as "Illumians."). The interests of the various cabals also would suggest various placements. In this regard, the Vecna reference is as fascinating as the St. Cuthbert reference. Illumians are apparently in some of the same places worshippers of Vecna and St. Cuthbert are located.
While there is a natural, I think, reaction against Illumians in Greyhawk, IMO, that needs to be gotten beyond. If one is fond of "canon," the Illumians are "canon" by direct reference. Moreover, the Illumians are not necessarily the outlandish gatecrashers they first appear to be. They are extremely secretive, even paranoid. And they can "turn off" their "headlights." They will thus not be found strolling through the streets of Greyhawk with their "lights" flashing. As they are "new," one might with some (retro-fitted) logic say that there may not be that many of them in the Flanaess for them to have gone unnoticed until "now." So, able to "blend," secretive and few in number, the Illumians become a DM option. "Canon" but hardly an explosive setting breaker, easily enough ignored if a DM doesn't care to use them.
There are multiple town treatments in RoD but "Three Falls" is the most fully fleshed out. Is it "Grey?" Well. It is not immediately "not-Grey." It seems pretty generic and "filler." But if "Cauldron" can be Greyhawk, "Three Falls" is arguably no worse. I'd say up to DM.
Hope this helps.
GVD
However, the most striking connection is potentially with Mt. Mathmagahma (sp), which is located in the northwest Yatil Mountains and is described in the College of Wizardry (CW) product. CW introduces the concept of a primeval language that is magical in its very nature, with transformative properties. This idea has been further developed/revisited in Tome and Blood and the Complete Arcane. Of course, the Illumians are and guard the secret of the Word Made Flesh. The Word Made Flesh and the language primevel have obvious similarities. But are they actually similar? Truth to tell, I have not read CW in so long, and have not had a chance to fully reread it yet, that I cannot answer the question with any certainty. The prospect is intriguing, however.
If the link between CW and RoD can be maintained, the the Illumians could be confidently placed in the Northwest Flanaess. That seems the most "obvious" lead. They could, however, be placed nearly anywhere because of the secretive nature of the Illumian cabals (remembering that the Illumians can "douse" or "turn off" their sigils so they are not immediately identifiable as "Illumians."). The interests of the various cabals also would suggest various placements. In this regard, the Vecna reference is as fascinating as the St. Cuthbert reference. Illumians are apparently in some of the same places worshippers of Vecna and St. Cuthbert are located.
While there is a natural, I think, reaction against Illumians in Greyhawk, IMO, that needs to be gotten beyond. If one is fond of "canon," the Illumians are "canon" by direct reference. Moreover, the Illumians are not necessarily the outlandish gatecrashers they first appear to be. They are extremely secretive, even paranoid. And they can "turn off" their "headlights." They will thus not be found strolling through the streets of Greyhawk with their "lights" flashing. As they are "new," one might with some (retro-fitted) logic say that there may not be that many of them in the Flanaess for them to have gone unnoticed until "now." So, able to "blend," secretive and few in number, the Illumians become a DM option. "Canon" but hardly an explosive setting breaker, easily enough ignored if a DM doesn't care to use them.
Good thinking! I hadn't considered that. Hmm..
