Do magic-users *need* the moons, even if they arent WoHS? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Do magic-users *need* the moons, even if they arent WoHS?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
true_blue
Jan 26, 2005 5:08:07 The Heroes of the Lance thread got me to thinking about the moons and magic. Now I hate to start another thread about the moons and magic, but I'm a little unclear on things.

Now renegades dont use the moons right? Thats what the WoHS do. So why did wizardry magic exactly go away... if just the gods did? Wouldnt renegades still be able to use wizardry? Or does there need to be the gods of magic in order to have magic. But that doesnt make sense because Takhisis gave spells to the Thorn Knights. Does there need to be gods somewhere in order to have access to wizardry? Wouldnt that mean that the Moon Gods effectively give renegades their spells? But that doesnt make sense or they wouldnt tout how much the WoHS is what is needed.

I guess I'm just confuzed on just exactly what is needed for there to be wizardry. What exactly do the renegades use to get their magic.. and why wasnt that available after Dragons of Summer Flame?
#2
wannabe_mage
Jan 26, 2005 5:35:44 Wizards, whether WoHS or renegades, employ godly magic. Godly, arcane magic is granted only by the three gods of magic. During the rise of the KoT, Takhisis found a way of providing arcane magic for her Grey Robes. This magic was essentially stolen from the three gods of magic, which is more or less what a renegade does too.
So, renegades don't "use" the moons in the way a WoHS does. But the magic itself is still tied to the three gods of magic.

Sorcery as discovered early in the Age of Mortals isn't godly in nature, hence it can be employed without the presence of gods.
#3
true_blue
Jan 26, 2005 5:41:44 Does that mean the Moon Gods have control over the magic then? Could they stop a Black Robe from casting spells? Or a Red Robe?

If not.. then basically they just exist and *are* the magic... but have no control over someone "stealing" it?

So throughout all these years.. they've never figured out exactly how the renegades are "stealing" the magic? And any god can just do the same thing as Takhisis and grant magic to their followers? I know people will say "um but they wont do that..." I'm not saying will they. Can they?
#4
cam_banks
Jan 26, 2005 5:51:10 A wizard is essentially an antenna that picks up the arcane signal that the gods of magic send into the world. If the wizard becomes a wizard of High Sorcery and establishes a commitment to one of the three gods of magic, they gain additional benefits (from the prestige class), but if they don't, they can still pick up that signal and provided they know the rituals, formulae and incantations, they can cast spells.

On occasion, the gods of magic have been capable of stripping the power to use magic from an individual, typically one who's already one of their own (such as the wizard who was using magic to make counterfeit money that's mentioned in The Soulforge) or one who is brought back from the dead by the gods (such as Palin). Ordinarily they don't do this sort of thing, even though they can, because their interpretation of the doctrine of free will extends to the use of magic by anybody who is capable of using it. They expect mortals to safeguard it, rather than stepping in and doing it themselves, which is why Raistlin was able to get as far as he did. The gods of magic were literally counting on his being stopped by other mortals (or himself). Which is what ended up happening.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
true_blue
Jan 26, 2005 5:55:36 ahh that makes a lot more sense. I guess the main thing I was wondering was if the Moon Gods could take away magic. I remember the discussions over the passage in the Soulforge and couldnt remember what the consensus came out to be, whether they could strip a person of spells or not.

It still also bothers me any god can come in and siphon(sp?) magic and give it to followers.

Still seems kind of weird that the Moon Gods let renegades exist, considering just how much they tout their organization as the best and wanting everyone to be in it. But I do like the free will thing where they let anyone who can use magic to go ahead and do so. So who knows.
#6
wannabe_mage
Jan 26, 2005 5:55:56 Whatever the gods have in mind for those who follow their teachings and those who defy them, they all must abide by the rules laid out for Krynn, including that people have free will.

I have no idea what the official stance towards this is, but the way I see it, godly, arcane magic can be employed by everyone. This means that the three gods of magic are caretakers of magic.... The whole institution of High Sorcery was created in order to prevent magic from running amok. Hence, the institution of High Sorcery is a way of keeping things in control, making sure that those who employ powerful magic are bound by the same rules.

Given that, I suppose that "stealing" magic would be possible at all times.....

EDIT: Guess I was a little late.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jan 26, 2005 8:30:41 I guess the next question would be to list reasons that the gods of magic DON'T want renegades. It would seem that as long as the renegades weren't "running amuke" as stated above, and that the renegades kept magic first in their life then why would the gods of magic not want them around? I understand that there's a difference between supporting them and over-looking/ignoring them as well.
#8
wannabe_mage
Jan 26, 2005 10:55:15 Best intentions is one thing....and having a pragmatic view on things is another thing. I think it is stated several places, that the Conclave doesn't take action towards bringing a renegade to justice unless the renegade somehow threatens either the institution of High Sorcery or magic as a whole.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jan 27, 2005 10:38:16
It still also bothers me any god can come in and siphon(sp?) magic and give it to followers.

Still seems kind of weird that the Moon Gods let renegades exist, considering just how much they tout their organization as the best and wanting everyone to be in it. But I do like the free will thing where they let anyone who can use magic to go ahead and do so. So who knows.

The way I view the gods, is that any and all the gods can provide arcane and divine magic. It's just that it was decided long ago (after the Scions almost "allegedly" destoryed Krynn) that the 3 cousins would be the administrators of magic. While Takhisis providing her Gray Robes with arcane magic wasn't a problem for her, it did fly in the face of the distribution of powers that all the gods hold to. Another example of Taky overstepping her bounds in the great scheme of things.

As for the Oders vs Renegades, I think part of the reason they don't strip renegades of the ability to tap into magic (besides the free-will thing), is that renegades are an enemy to the WoHS and can unite the three orders. Of course the pursuit of magic unites them all, but that's a philosphical unity which is easily discarded, as evidenced by conflict between the orders outside the towers. Renegades provide the Orders with a person or group of people which to unify against. Much like the Knights of Solmania and Knights of Neraka/Takhisis. The KoS bicker and battle amongst each other but when the KoN show up they, as a knighthood, unite and rally to the cause of putting them down. It is much the same with the WoHS.

So if the gods were to leave the WoHS with no enemies they would eventually implode upon themselves. Renegades provide a distraction or something to focus on other than their own differences.
#10
darthsylver
Jan 27, 2005 13:39:04 The way I see it is this. The gods of magic are so suffused with arcane energies that they grant magic simply by their existence (in the form of the three moons). Now any person can use this energy just as someone can use the light of the moon to see. Now when a wizard joins the order of High Sorcery he is voluntarily submitting to the will of the gods of magic (not exactly worhsiping the gods, but close) as such he becomes more in tune with the god's will as well as the energies (vibes) coming fro the gods (moons).

It is sorta like when you get married, and you become more attuned to your spouse and can almost (not always mind you) tell what they are thinking or if they want you to do something.

Now with the wizard in soulforge the gods (IMO) did not stop the energies from flowing (as I don't think they can, hence rengades), but simply cast an animagic shell (on an epic level) spell on her, or even the Curse the Magi spell from ToHS (anybody have a clue what the will save would be for that one?), thus preventing her from using her magic. Now nobody would really know the difference including high ranking wizards, except possibly other gods.

How exactly Takhisis was able to siphon off and more acutely focus these energies for the thorn knights I am not sure.
#11
zombiegleemax
Jan 27, 2005 13:59:37 I'm pretty sure somewhere in DoSF it says that Nuitari was having trouble standing up to his mother. So it might be that he knew that she was granting arcane spells to her wizards but didn't/wouldn't do anything about it. By the time he let his cousins know what was going on it was too late because the Gray Robes had grown so powerful. I really don't think they, the gods of magic, can stop magic from being in this world anymore than I can stop the sun from shining. What they do is filter the primal magic so that it is useable by mundane mortals. That they can do that is nothing special, any god can do it, it's just that the gods have all agreed that magic is the purview of the 3 moons and they aren't supposed to do anything with it. So I don't think that Tahkisis siphoned/stole/shunted magic from the moons to her wizards. I think she filtered her own magic for them which was against the rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 true_blue Jan 26, 2005 5:08:07	The Heroes of the Lance thread got me to thinking about the moons and magic. Now I hate to start another thread about the moons and magic, but I'm a little unclear on things. Now renegades dont use the moons right? Thats what the WoHS do. So why did wizardry magic exactly go away... if just the gods did? Wouldnt renegades still be able to use wizardry? Or does there need to be the gods of magic in order to have magic. But that doesnt make sense because Takhisis gave spells to the Thorn Knights. Does there need to be gods somewhere in order to have access to wizardry? Wouldnt that mean that the Moon Gods effectively give renegades their spells? But that doesnt make sense or they wouldnt tout how much the WoHS is what is needed. I guess I'm just confuzed on just exactly what is needed for there to be wizardry. What exactly do the renegades use to get their magic.. and why wasnt that available after Dragons of Summer Flame?
#2 wannabe_mage Jan 26, 2005 5:35:44	Wizards, whether WoHS or renegades, employ godly magic. Godly, arcane magic is granted only by the three gods of magic. During the rise of the KoT, Takhisis found a way of providing arcane magic for her Grey Robes. This magic was essentially stolen from the three gods of magic, which is more or less what a renegade does too. So, renegades don't "use" the moons in the way a WoHS does. But the magic itself is still tied to the three gods of magic. Sorcery as discovered early in the Age of Mortals isn't godly in nature, hence it can be employed without the presence of gods.
#3 true_blue Jan 26, 2005 5:41:44	Does that mean the Moon Gods have control over the magic then? Could they stop a Black Robe from casting spells? Or a Red Robe? If not.. then basically they just exist and are the magic... but have no control over someone "stealing" it? So throughout all these years.. they've never figured out exactly how the renegades are "stealing" the magic? And any god can just do the same thing as Takhisis and grant magic to their followers? I know people will say "um but they wont do that..." I'm not saying will they. Can they?
#4 cam_banks Jan 26, 2005 5:51:10	A wizard is essentially an antenna that picks up the arcane signal that the gods of magic send into the world. If the wizard becomes a wizard of High Sorcery and establishes a commitment to one of the three gods of magic, they gain additional benefits (from the prestige class), but if they don't, they can still pick up that signal and provided they know the rituals, formulae and incantations, they can cast spells. On occasion, the gods of magic have been capable of stripping the power to use magic from an individual, typically one who's already one of their own (such as the wizard who was using magic to make counterfeit money that's mentioned in The Soulforge) or one who is brought back from the dead by the gods (such as Palin). Ordinarily they don't do this sort of thing, even though they can, because their interpretation of the doctrine of free will extends to the use of magic by anybody who is capable of using it. They expect mortals to safeguard it, rather than stepping in and doing it themselves, which is why Raistlin was able to get as far as he did. The gods of magic were literally counting on his being stopped by other mortals (or himself). Which is what ended up happening. Cheers, Cam
#5 true_blue Jan 26, 2005 5:55:36	ahh that makes a lot more sense. I guess the main thing I was wondering was if the Moon Gods could take away magic. I remember the discussions over the passage in the Soulforge and couldnt remember what the consensus came out to be, whether they could strip a person of spells or not. It still also bothers me any god can come in and siphon(sp?) magic and give it to followers. Still seems kind of weird that the Moon Gods let renegades exist, considering just how much they tout their organization as the best and wanting everyone to be in it. But I do like the free will thing where they let anyone who can use magic to go ahead and do so. So who knows.
#6 wannabe_mage Jan 26, 2005 5:55:56	Whatever the gods have in mind for those who follow their teachings and those who defy them, they all must abide by the rules laid out for Krynn, including that people have free will. I have no idea what the official stance towards this is, but the way I see it, godly, arcane magic can be employed by everyone. This means that the three gods of magic are caretakers of magic.... The whole institution of High Sorcery was created in order to prevent magic from running amok. Hence, the institution of High Sorcery is a way of keeping things in control, making sure that those who employ powerful magic are bound by the same rules. Given that, I suppose that "stealing" magic would be possible at all times..... EDIT: Guess I was a little late.
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 26, 2005 8:30:41	I guess the next question would be to list reasons that the gods of magic DON'T want renegades. It would seem that as long as the renegades weren't "running amuke" as stated above, and that the renegades kept magic first in their life then why would the gods of magic not want them around? I understand that there's a difference between supporting them and over-looking/ignoring them as well.
#8 wannabe_mage Jan 26, 2005 10:55:15	Best intentions is one thing....and having a pragmatic view on things is another thing. I think it is stated several places, that the Conclave doesn't take action towards bringing a renegade to justice unless the renegade somehow threatens either the institution of High Sorcery or magic as a whole.
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 27, 2005 10:38:16	It still also bothers me any god can come in and siphon(sp?) magic and give it to followers. Still seems kind of weird that the Moon Gods let renegades exist, considering just how much they tout their organization as the best and wanting everyone to be in it. But I do like the free will thing where they let anyone who can use magic to go ahead and do so. So who knows. The way I view the gods, is that any and all the gods can provide arcane and divine magic. It's just that it was decided long ago (after the Scions almost "allegedly" destoryed Krynn) that the 3 cousins would be the administrators of magic. While Takhisis providing her Gray Robes with arcane magic wasn't a problem for her, it did fly in the face of the distribution of powers that all the gods hold to. Another example of Taky overstepping her bounds in the great scheme of things. As for the Oders vs Renegades, I think part of the reason they don't strip renegades of the ability to tap into magic (besides the free-will thing), is that renegades are an enemy to the WoHS and can unite the three orders. Of course the pursuit of magic unites them all, but that's a philosphical unity which is easily discarded, as evidenced by conflict between the orders outside the towers. Renegades provide the Orders with a person or group of people which to unify against. Much like the Knights of Solmania and Knights of Neraka/Takhisis. The KoS bicker and battle amongst each other but when the KoN show up they, as a knighthood, unite and rally to the cause of putting them down. It is much the same with the WoHS. So if the gods were to leave the WoHS with no enemies they would eventually implode upon themselves. Renegades provide a distraction or something to focus on other than their own differences.
#10 darthsylver Jan 27, 2005 13:39:04	The way I see it is this. The gods of magic are so suffused with arcane energies that they grant magic simply by their existence (in the form of the three moons). Now any person can use this energy just as someone can use the light of the moon to see. Now when a wizard joins the order of High Sorcery he is voluntarily submitting to the will of the gods of magic (not exactly worhsiping the gods, but close) as such he becomes more in tune with the god's will as well as the energies (vibes) coming fro the gods (moons). It is sorta like when you get married, and you become more attuned to your spouse and can almost (not always mind you) tell what they are thinking or if they want you to do something. Now with the wizard in soulforge the gods (IMO) did not stop the energies from flowing (as I don't think they can, hence rengades), but simply cast an animagic shell (on an epic level) spell on her, or even the Curse the Magi spell from ToHS (anybody have a clue what the will save would be for that one?), thus preventing her from using her magic. Now nobody would really know the difference including high ranking wizards, except possibly other gods. How exactly Takhisis was able to siphon off and more acutely focus these energies for the thorn knights I am not sure.
#11 zombiegleemax Jan 27, 2005 13:59:37	I'm pretty sure somewhere in DoSF it says that Nuitari was having trouble standing up to his mother. So it might be that he knew that she was granting arcane spells to her wizards but didn't/wouldn't do anything about it. By the time he let his cousins know what was going on it was too late because the Gray Robes had grown so powerful. I really don't think they, the gods of magic, can stop magic from being in this world anymore than I can stop the sun from shining. What they do is filter the primal magic so that it is useable by mundane mortals. That they can do that is nothing special, any god can do it, it's just that the gods have all agreed that magic is the purview of the 3 moons and they aren't supposed to do anything with it. So I don't think that Tahkisis siphoned/stole/shunted magic from the moons to her wizards. I think she filtered her own magic for them which was against the rules.