I would like any feedback you guys are willing to give me
An alternate history of Dark Sun
1.The attempted attack on Kalak fails. The heartwood spear is deflected, but the Sorcerer King Kalak is wounded. Rikus is killed by Kalak; the subsequent “heroes” (conspirators) are hunted down and killed. Sadira is spared but becomes a love slave of Kalak. He kills her in a sexual frenzy only months later.
2.The City-State of Urik goes to war with the City-State of Tyr. Urik defeats Tyr. Kalak is trapped in an obsidian orb by Hammanu, who uses the newly made Orb of Kalak and sacrificed prisoners to complete his transformation into a full dragon.
3.A cult of black-touched retrieves the Dark Lens and make a pilgrimage to the Valley of Dust and Fire in an attempt to free the first sorcerer Rajaat. Hammanu learns of the attempt and marches his army to the City-State of Balic. Hammanu and Andropinis make a pact to stop the cult. Rajaat is freed and traps Andropinis in the Black. The dragon Borys appears and helps Hammanu partially partially trap Rajaat in the Hollow. Rajaat's partial imprisonment results in the Cerulean Storm and Change Storms (storms that appear at random in the desert and leave surreal changes behind).
4.Borys flees north and takes refuge with the Sorcerer Kings of Draj and Raam. Ur Draxa (the city in the Valley of Dust and Fire) is rendered uninhabitable.
5.Tectuktitlay of Draj, Abalach-Re of Raam, and the Dragon Borys make an alliance to kill the now dragon Sorcerer King Hammanu.
6.After the loss of its Sorcerer King Andropinis, Balic becomes a republic-patricians take over rule. The citizens are free, but the slaves remain slaves. Templars are replaced with mages who draw their magical power from the Cerulean Storm.
7.In the aftermath of the Holocaust of Tyr, the various merchant houses begin to relocate, many moving their base of operations to Nibenay. This results in a war between the merchant houses. House Shom is greatly threatened as the merchant houses fight for the iron caravan routes out of the remnants of occupied Tyr.
8.Gulg and Nibenay join forces to defend against possible aggression from either Urik or Draj/Raam/Borys.
9.Athas is invaded by the Githyanki who establish a foothold in the Black Spine Mountains. The Githyanki begin to manufacture airships that are seen in the skies of Athas. There are rumors that the Githyanki are in talks with the merchant houses of the Tablelands to import valuable metals in exchange for Athasian troops being added to the Githyanki armies.
Kalak was "killed" in the third year of the PCs adventure by the now-famous Spear. Dote Mal Payne, with the PCs' help, bring Kalak back. The whole events of the Prism Pentad go down except for the ending of the last book (Rajaat almost getting released and half of the SKs pushing up the daisies). Dregoth rose up and beat the holy living tar out of Abalach Re and took over Raam, making life very uncomfortable for Tec (who was later "killed (no word yet on whether it's permanent - my PCs never traveled that far, so they haven't found out, yet)) and Hamanu.
While the books were a good read, I didn't appreciate the fact that "all the big deeds were done." I always thought that kind of action should be left up to the players.
While the books were a good read, I didn't appreciate the fact that "all the big deeds were done." I always thought that kind of action should be left up to the players.
I don't agree with you there. The Prism Pentad told a story (a damn good one at that!) that had major reprecussions to the campaign admittedly. However, there are still plenty of major plot lines to be used for adventures.
Just because the PP killed several SKs and locked away Rajaat again doesn't mean the that Athas is all of a sudden this booming safe haven. There are still wrongs to be righted, many more quests to be undertaken, and several other SKs for the PCs to contend with.
It just bothers me when people paint the events of the PP series in the light of "It made Dark Sun an unplayable world". Thats like saying after the FR series The Time of Troubles there was nothing left for the PC's to do on Toril. Which is far from being the truth.
Just thought I'd share my two bits.
I return you to your regularly scheduled thread :D
I don't agree with you there. The Prism Pentad told a story (a damn good one at that!) that had major reprecussions to the campaign admittedly. However, there are still plenty of major plot lines to be used for adventures.
Just because the PP killed several SKs and locked away Rajaat again doesn't mean the that Athas is all of a sudden this booming safe haven. There are still wrongs to be righted, many more quests to be undertaken, and several other SKs for the PCs to contend with.
I second that. But I must say that the alternate history you presented, Sunfear, is pretty interesting. The only thing I can't accept is an alliance between Gulg and that Tree-Butcher, Nibenay... ;) but that's just me. Any Githyanki plans for invasion in the future?
The third group enjoyed it more. Of course, one of the classes I took for psychology was statistics and the main rule of statistics is: Correlation is not Causation. In other words, just because 99% of people that have died breathed, it does not mean that breathing causes death. What do I mean by that? Well, it might have been that I was a better GM, or the players preferred that style of game, or some combination thereof. But it sticks with me. I could go either way with it, but I kind of like having the bulk of the SKs sticking around.
The most recent incarnation (and the one that I've talked about on these posts the most) has the SKs that are killed by fellow SKs or Rajaat are really dead, otherwise, they have contingency spells that are are going into effect. This would include old villains like Sacha and Wyan, who were never really "dead" - just trapped inside floating skulls for all eternity until set free by an overzealous Rikus and bloodthirsty Sadira.
Kalak and a few of the others are slowing coming back, but Sacha and Wyan are the ones that Athas really has to worry about (in my campaign): they have a lot of scores to settle.
Ha HA! I'll take your two bits and raise you two! I've run a few DS campaigns with my players. The first two (with two different sets of players in different locations) was run "by the book," following the events that happened in the Prism Pentad. When I went off to college, I got a new group and tried it as a "wait and see" style - events that the PCs effected was what happened
I have no problem with people running alternate time lines for DS. I just have issues when people state that PP left DS with nothing for their own PCs to accomplish in their home campaigns.
I do encourage creativity however. :D
Granted, players could easily butt heads with the undead to the South, the Kreen to the West, the Tyr Storms to the East, and the Last Sea to the North; but what if they wanted to thwart Abalach-Re's plans? Can't: Dead. Maybe throw a wrench into Androponis's Silt Skimmer fleet? Nope: dead, too. Tec? Uh-uh. Maybe they could make friends with the most open of the characters from the Pentad - Agis. Oh, wait...
You get my point. I loved the books and they definitely helped me come up with adventures that would otherwise have never seen the light of day. They set the feel and, more importantly, the cost of living on Athas and took that into my campaigns with a vengence.
But what happened in the stories is the equivalent of Drizzt going into the Underdark and wiping out 60% of all Drow. You have to admit, that's a major shift in the story line and would force a lot of GMs to adjust their campaigns. My players were tromping around in Raam, trying to get Albalach-Re overthrown when she was supposedly out in the wastes getting munched by Sadira.
I'll say what I always say: use what works in your campaign. I've run it both ways and both worked well; it's just that following the Pentad through book 3 and then stopping worked a bit "more well."
Whew! Speaking of books...
1.The attempted attack on Kalak fails. The heartwood spear is deflected, but the Sorcerer King Kalak is wounded. Rikus is killed by Kalak; the subsequent “heroes” (conspirators) are hunted down and killed. Sadira is spared but becomes a love slave of Kalak. He kills her in a sexual frenzy only months later.
2.The City-State of Urik goes to war with the City-State of Tyr. Urik defeats Tyr. Kalak is trapped in an obsidian orb by Hammanu, who uses the newly made Orb of Kalak and sacrificed prisoners to complete his transformation into a full dragon.
So does Kalak's big ritual work or not? From what you got, it seems that it doesn't work. Also what of Sacha and Wyan?
Suggestion: Kalak is seriously weakened as a result of his failed ritual. Further a whole bunch of his populace are now dead. Sacha and Wyan escape(when he gets weak from his failed ritual), then organise a seach for the obsidian oracle. Their goons find it eventually, and they go off the free Rajaat.
Without a Scourge of R'kard or similar handy weapon, defeating Borys in his inner sanctum is impossible, he is simply forced to flee. Rajaat is freed. Borys recruits the rest of his sorcerer-monarch posse and then teleport raids Rajaat, sacha and wyan. They manage to get the obsidan oracle and use it to seal Rajaat once more.
regards
Making an analogy: After the original Star Wars triology (IV-V-VI) comes out, they make setting material only for past-Empire times. How would the sales of Star Wars RPG goes after that? I tell you: almost zero. Survey proofed the fact: 80% of SW gamers play in the time of the Empire.
Same is valid for here: a lot of forum members invented alternative storylines, or don't use the PP events, because the original setting is closer to their heart. We see it here day by day.
So IMHO PP books are good to read, but they are the butcher of the original setting. Their existence changed the most daring, inventive setting TSR could ever produce into an other, without the chance to grown it up properly. And lot of DS fun can't forgive this to the PP.
Same is valid for here: a lot of forum members invented alternative storylines, or don't use the PP events, because the original setting is closer to their heart. We see it here day by day.
Terrific argument!
I too disregard events from PP. Really, I cherish the SKs too much as NPCs and villains to not use (the majority of) them in my campaigns. Also, I much prefer the way city-states were before their SKs died.
. I fell in love with Dark Sun because of the first boxed set. And then came the PP and whacked this beautiful setting...
(look! you're smiling! that must be some gooood cotton candy...)
Just two more bits I'd thought I'd throw at ya :P
What people don't take into account is that the majority of the SKs didn't die till 10 yrs after the first book of the PP series. From what I've gathered from these boards most people's campaign's take place around Free Year 1 (starting with Freedom). Thats still plenty of time to use all your favorite Dragon Monarch's and still stay somewhat true to DS canon before they buy it.
Just two more bits I'd thought I'd throw at ya :P
I don't have to worry too much about this since we're about 20 years before. Kalak is starting to build his ziggurat.
Not a big problem for me, either, as my campaign is about 300 years in the future.
Which could be effected in some way by the events of PP due to it wasting 3 SKs and the creation of the Cerulean Storm 300 years in the past. That is, if you use DS canon for your campaign.
1) Rajaat is never released. In my opinion, Rajaat is to the SKs what the SKs are to a peasant farmer: without all of them, they have no chance. Even so, Rajaat has other ways of influencing the events of the world, even ones his former Champions are not aware of...
2) Albalach Re is not killed by Sadira but rather by Dregoth. With the addition of Dregoth Ascending, I can flesh this out quite a bit more. Andy was never imprisoned in the Black - I think he's my favorite SK, so dumping him into (we thought) an endless prison was more than I could bare.
3) My players, for one reason or another, have never traveled to Draj, despite the fact that I had several hooks leading there, a detailed map, etc. Guess they don't like Aztecs? So I had no reason to either protect or destroy Tec. Decided to leave him alone.
What people don't take into account is that the majority of the SKs didn't die till 10 yrs after the first book of the PP series. From what I've gathered from these boards most people's campaign's take place around Free Year 1 (starting with Freedom). Thats still plenty of time to use all your favorite Dragon Monarch's and still stay somewhat true to DS canon before they buy it.
Just two more bits I'd thought I'd throw at ya :P
Well, that's true, as Dune Trader, Valley of Dust and Fire, etc. are timed in that 10 year long period, so it is pretty much use. However even killing one SK is quite a heavy "appetiser" to Dark Sun, as they are described in the first box as almost godlike beings. Again Star Wars analogy: it's the same as killing Darth Vader in Epidode IV. Which would be a bit gross, isn't it?
And if you even introduce a bit of spark of hope (free Tyr) it already changes the 'hopeless, no chance to change' feeling of the setting considerably. And this is a big part of the DS feeling.
Not to mention that 'knowing the end' is again a ruining factor in playing experience, so you are effectively forced to avoid this somehow: playing very early before the events, playing after it so the future is unknown (as it should be), or invent alternatives. Majority of the players/DMs here went with one if these I think.
And just as a base for further discussion: IMHO a good storyline for PP would be: heroes become slaves, organise a slave rebellion which is doomed to be crushed, but at least our heroes escape with their lives. In the meantime they can learn a very evil plan of the SK which endangers the whole city (dragon transformation). They go to places, gain knowledge about the backgrounds of the SKs, start to acquire contacts, psionic items, artifacts, maybe a small army(?), then going back and try to stop the SK. Eventually killing him, but maybe better to hinder the plan for very long time (with destroying a vital, and hardly replacable component wich takes decades to re-acquire). In short: put the events of the 2-5th books into the 1st one's arc. That would be much more in line with everything I think.
Thoughts?
I have no problem with Troy Denning's books. I read them years ago and love them. Like many books I used to love they have not nessessarily stood the test of time, but I am still in debt to them. Why am I in debt, because they (like Brom's artwork) set the tone for Dark Sun in general.
That said, I do not feel like the history of the last ten years of Dark Sun is convincing. It bothers me that nearly every historical event centers around the characters of the Prism Pentad. I think it is better if the Sorcerer-Kings are the ones who cause history to happen.
When designing my alternate history, I tried to interweave some of my favorite elements from the athas.org conversions (black-touched, cerulean storm mages, ect) but tried to go for a history that seemed more historical. A careful reading of my history shows that while some SKs are out of action, none are dead. Kalak is half trapped in the black, half trapped in the Orb of Kalak. And yes the ritual worked, however, Kalak was wounded by Rikus and this lead to Hammanu being able to trap Kalak even though Kalak was technically more powerful.
Athas is invaded by the Githyanki who establish a foothold in the Black Spine Mountains. The Githyanki begin to manufacture airships that are seen in the skies of Athas. There are rumors that the Githyanki are in talks with the merchant houses of the Tablelands to import valuable metals in exchange for Athasian troops being added to the Githyanki armies.
I really like the idea of airships in Athas, imagery of Barsoom or the old game Space 1899.
Not sure about the Githyanki importing metal, a lack of metal is important to what Athas has become as much as Defiling magic or psionics. Maybe the Githyanki could establish a foothold but then lose contact? They would have several (mother)airships and the capability to construct more, weaker ones from Athasian materials.
They could still ally with the trading houses, the small airships could be transport vessels for the trading houses, manned mostly by athasians with a small crew of githyanki (in control of the ship of course).
However even killing one SK is quite a heavy "appetiser" to Dark Sun, as they are described in the first box as almost godlike beings.
But they are killable, there are abandoned cities without SK's, and since the original boxed set was written from the perspective of the wanderer, who at the time was a pretty normal fellow, and probably regarded the SKs as god-like.
What i didnt like about the novels was the death of Borys. He was, and in my opinion still is, the coolest bad guy in any D&D product.
And if you even introduce a bit of spark of hope (free Tyr) it already changes the 'hopeless, no chance to change' feeling of the setting considerably. And this is a big part of the DS feeling.
Probably my favourite part about the Noonan DS version was that alot of the events of the books were countered. Not because i didnt like the books, but because i like the idea of Sadira gettting old and looking back on her past and thinking "i tried, but nothing changed. They have begun returning. The old ways have become the new ways. There is no hope for athas"
But they are killable, there are abandoned cities without SK's, and since the original boxed set was written from the perspective of the wanderer, who at the time was a pretty normal fellow, and probably regarded the SKs as god-like.
As far as I know every SK who has been killed recently (i.e. after the Cleansing Wars ended) were killed by other SKs. Sielba were killed by Hamanu, Kalid-Ma were killed by Kalak, Hamanu and some others, Dregoth was killed by all the other SKs in unison. (Did I miss somebody?) No heroes were involved. From the point of view of the masses it was all the 'war of the Gods' thing, where no 'mere mortal' has the power to effect anything, except to be a puppet to one of the gods.
And even the last of such SK-kill happened generations ago. In a world where writing is forbidden (exactly because of this reason I might add!) the dim memory of the people is the only trace of history. For the last 5 generations things didn't change, so for the people it's like 'it was always such way in eternity'.
My next campaign will be set just before the first genocides begin.