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Questions about Immortals

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 30, 2005 15:26:32 …Specifically, how they work. What mechanics separated immortals from normal high level beings? Basically, I want to know how immortality worked in 2e, for the sole purpose of comparing it to the Book of Immortals released by Mongoose Publishing in October (which I have bought).
#2
havard
Jan 30, 2005 17:02:51
…Specifically, how they work. What mechanics separated immortals from normal high level beings? Basically, I want to know how immortality worked in 2e, for the sole purpose of comparing it to the Book of Immortals released by Mongoose Publishing in October (which I have bought).

There was never any rules for handling Immortals in 2e. OD&D had a separate rulebook describing them though. For 2e, treating Immortals like Powers (Gods) is probably the best way to go. Although young immortals are not much more powerful than the most powerful mortals, old immortals are rival the power of the greatest gods.

I'm not familar with the Book of Immortals, except for hearing a few rumours about it, but from what I have heard, those immortals would be significantly weaker than Mystaran Immortals. I may be wrong though.

Håvard
#3
zombiegleemax
Jan 30, 2005 18:15:38 I probably should have specified that my question was just concerning pre 3rd edition mechanics.

Well, just give me some of the basics (namely powers, special abilities, advancement [not as necessary]) about OD&D Immortals. So I could judge for myself.

Additionally, what was the main thing that separated Immortals from Deites in OD&D (and / or later editions) other than simple semantics?
#4
thorf
Jan 31, 2005 3:31:42 In simple terms, the original D&D game had Immortals instead of deities. The games diverged a little from there, though, because with the release of the Master and Immortals rules sets, the long term aim of the game became for characters to attain immortality.

I seem to remember reading at one point that they decided to go with "Immortals" to avoid using the word "gods", so it seems likely D&D immortals and AD&D gods started out on equal footing at one stage.

As for advancement and such... going by the later Wrath of the Immortals rules, immortals had an experience chart of 36 levels similar to that of mortal characters. They gained power points rather than experience, but since 1 PP was equal to 10,000 XP, in the end they're just the same thing. Powers-wise, they could duplicate any mortal spell effect as well as an appropriately powerful range of immortal powers by expending power points. Power point usage was divided into temporary and permanent, and the effects were correspondingly more permanent and more powerful when using up power permanently.

Some examples of immortal powers: Bestow, Conceal Magical Nature, Create Species, Detect Immortal Magic, Hear Supplicants, Immortal Eye, Increase Spell Duration, Power Attack, Probe, Probe-Shield, Reduce Saving Throw, Shape Reality, and Transform.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jan 31, 2005 8:27:45 They sound remarkably similar. The main difference in Mongoose Publishing's Book of Immortals is that you couldn't use your immortal powers to outright duplicate any mortal spell (although some of the power gifts had abilities that duplicated specific spells). Also, Create Species and Shape Reality sound far more powerful than any gift described for an Immortal.

Your right, the Mongoose Immortals are considerably less powerful.

Just curious, were there any drawbacks to immortality in OD&D? Not that any drawback would discourage someone who really wanted the transcendent power.
#6
kheldren
Jan 31, 2005 8:57:49 Drawback to D&D Immortality? - not really, save that you had a whole new set of goals and enemies. If you blend the original Gold-box rules with WotI then you also had you own plane to look after/control/defend... but it's really a domain on a different level.
(Actually if you use straight Gold-box rules you had to defeat someone to advance pretty much every level.)

The only drawback I can really think of is that there were places where you couldn't hide your non-standard nature, e.g. the Astral plane. Note the OD&D Astral plane was wierd, your perceptions shifted one dimension away from your physicality, ie mortals were still in 1, 2 and 3 but saw in 2, 3, and 4 so they saw themselves as 2-dimensional. Immortals being 4d creatures were in 1, 2, 3 & 4 (and saw in 2-5) but appeared 3d to a mortal as the mortal can see their 4th dimension.

The immortal rules were a way to extend the game past the level cap (of 36) but required thought and planning not simple 'hack 'n' slash'.

As for the Immortals v gods issue, they removed all gods from OD&D - people worshipped the Immortals and gained powers from them, so to a mortal Immortal = god, save that stories existed of very unusual people ascending. They also provided some very clear and simple rules for how to become an Immortal - and it is far from easy.
#7
zombiegleemax
Feb 02, 2005 8:52:07 FWIW, as far as I can tell Mongoose's "Book of Immortals" is likely another attempt at the "Epic Levels" than a reediting of the original rules for Immortal PCs of Classic D&D.
Basically if I got it right, they set up rules for beefing up your character from level 21st and on, rules that could substitute the Epic Levels sourcebook from Wizards of the Coast and that don't necessarily imply that PCs become gods.

Can you confirm or deny any of these assumptions, Dreamknight, since you got the book?
In particular, could you please write a review of that sourcebook, since I think there may be many here interested in reading it before getting it?
Thanks in advance ;)
#8
zombiegleemax
Feb 07, 2005 17:37:33 Okay, I can confirm that the book is essentially an alternate set of rules for beyond 20th level advancement without using the official Epic Level Handbook rules. It bears only a superficial if any resemblance to the Immortals of old editions from what I've read.

As for writing a review, I'm not sure I'm really well qualified to do so, considering that I'm extremely new to D&D, have barely/never played using the rules, and probably have bitten off more than I or my players can chew by starting a game off at ECL 30 in Forgotten Realms with the gestalt rules in Unearthed Arcana (this remains to be seen, as the campaign is still weeks to months from starting).

If you really, really want a review, I could give you one, but, again, see above.
#9
zombiegleemax
Feb 09, 2005 4:43:05 Yep Dreamknight, I really want a review of that sourcebook ;)

And don't worry about your experience with D&D: if you don't start from somewhere, you'll never get experienced :P

Oh btw, I'm particularly interested in a comparison between Book of Immortals and Epic Levels Handbook (if you have the second one too, that is..)

Thanks again!
#10
zombiegleemax
Feb 10, 2005 17:18:30 Of course I have the second book! And even if I didn't, the base aspects of the rules are in the DMs guide v. 3.5 and the SRD is available for free.

Thank you :D The review will be up either later today or tomorrow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 30, 2005 15:26:32	…Specifically, how they work. What mechanics separated immortals from normal high level beings? Basically, I want to know how immortality worked in 2e, for the sole purpose of comparing it to the Book of Immortals released by Mongoose Publishing in October (which I have bought).
#2 havard Jan 30, 2005 17:02:51	…Specifically, how they work. What mechanics separated immortals from normal high level beings? Basically, I want to know how immortality worked in 2e, for the sole purpose of comparing it to the Book of Immortals released by Mongoose Publishing in October (which I have bought). There was never any rules for handling Immortals in 2e. OD&D had a separate rulebook describing them though. For 2e, treating Immortals like Powers (Gods) is probably the best way to go. Although young immortals are not much more powerful than the most powerful mortals, old immortals are rival the power of the greatest gods. I'm not familar with the Book of Immortals, except for hearing a few rumours about it, but from what I have heard, those immortals would be significantly weaker than Mystaran Immortals. I may be wrong though. Håvard
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 30, 2005 18:15:38	I probably should have specified that my question was just concerning pre 3rd edition mechanics. Well, just give me some of the basics (namely powers, special abilities, advancement [not as necessary]) about OD&D Immortals. So I could judge for myself. Additionally, what was the main thing that separated Immortals from Deites in OD&D (and / or later editions) other than simple semantics?
#4 thorf Jan 31, 2005 3:31:42	In simple terms, the original D&D game had Immortals instead of deities. The games diverged a little from there, though, because with the release of the Master and Immortals rules sets, the long term aim of the game became for characters to attain immortality. I seem to remember reading at one point that they decided to go with "Immortals" to avoid using the word "gods", so it seems likely D&D immortals and AD&D gods started out on equal footing at one stage. As for advancement and such... going by the later Wrath of the Immortals rules, immortals had an experience chart of 36 levels similar to that of mortal characters. They gained power points rather than experience, but since 1 PP was equal to 10,000 XP, in the end they're just the same thing. Powers-wise, they could duplicate any mortal spell effect as well as an appropriately powerful range of immortal powers by expending power points. Power point usage was divided into temporary and permanent, and the effects were correspondingly more permanent and more powerful when using up power permanently. Some examples of immortal powers: Bestow, Conceal Magical Nature, Create Species, Detect Immortal Magic, Hear Supplicants, Immortal Eye, Increase Spell Duration, Power Attack, Probe, Probe-Shield, Reduce Saving Throw, Shape Reality, and Transform.
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 31, 2005 8:27:45	They sound remarkably similar. The main difference in Mongoose Publishing's Book of Immortals is that you couldn't use your immortal powers to outright duplicate any mortal spell (although some of the power gifts had abilities that duplicated specific spells). Also, Create Species and Shape Reality sound far more powerful than any gift described for an Immortal. Your right, the Mongoose Immortals are considerably less powerful. Just curious, were there any drawbacks to immortality in OD&D? Not that any drawback would discourage someone who really wanted the transcendent power.
#6 kheldren Jan 31, 2005 8:57:49	Drawback to D&D Immortality? - not really, save that you had a whole new set of goals and enemies. If you blend the original Gold-box rules with WotI then you also had you own plane to look after/control/defend... but it's really a domain on a different level. (Actually if you use straight Gold-box rules you had to defeat someone to advance pretty much every level.) The only drawback I can really think of is that there were places where you couldn't hide your non-standard nature, e.g. the Astral plane. Note the OD&D Astral plane was wierd, your perceptions shifted one dimension away from your physicality, ie mortals were still in 1, 2 and 3 but saw in 2, 3, and 4 so they saw themselves as 2-dimensional. Immortals being 4d creatures were in 1, 2, 3 & 4 (and saw in 2-5) but appeared 3d to a mortal as the mortal can see their 4th dimension. The immortal rules were a way to extend the game past the level cap (of 36) but required thought and planning not simple 'hack 'n' slash'. As for the Immortals v gods issue, they removed all gods from OD&D - people worshipped the Immortals and gained powers from them, so to a mortal Immortal = god, save that stories existed of very unusual people ascending. They also provided some very clear and simple rules for how to become an Immortal - and it is far from easy.
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 02, 2005 8:52:07	FWIW, as far as I can tell Mongoose's "Book of Immortals" is likely another attempt at the "Epic Levels" than a reediting of the original rules for Immortal PCs of Classic D&D. Basically if I got it right, they set up rules for beefing up your character from level 21st and on, rules that could substitute the Epic Levels sourcebook from Wizards of the Coast and that don't necessarily imply that PCs become gods. Can you confirm or deny any of these assumptions, Dreamknight, since you got the book? In particular, could you please write a review of that sourcebook, since I think there may be many here interested in reading it before getting it? Thanks in advance ;)
#8 zombiegleemax Feb 07, 2005 17:37:33	Okay, I can confirm that the book is essentially an alternate set of rules for beyond 20th level advancement without using the official Epic Level Handbook rules. It bears only a superficial if any resemblance to the Immortals of old editions from what I've read. As for writing a review, I'm not sure I'm really well qualified to do so, considering that I'm extremely new to D&D, have barely/never played using the rules, and probably have bitten off more than I or my players can chew by starting a game off at ECL 30 in Forgotten Realms with the gestalt rules in Unearthed Arcana (this remains to be seen, as the campaign is still weeks to months from starting). If you really, *really* want a review, I could give you one, but, again, see above.
#9 zombiegleemax Feb 09, 2005 4:43:05	Yep Dreamknight, I really want a review of that sourcebook ;) And don't worry about your experience with D&D: if you don't start from somewhere, you'll never get experienced :P Oh btw, I'm particularly interested in a comparison between Book of Immortals and Epic Levels Handbook (if you have the second one too, that is..) Thanks again!
#10 zombiegleemax Feb 10, 2005 17:18:30	Of course I have the second book! And even if I didn't, the base aspects of the rules are in the DMs guide v. 3.5 and the SRD is available for free. Thank you :D The review will be up either later today or tomorrow.