~~~
My first, and main, question is: Why were the low-level PCs chosen to save the entire world ?
Because they're the player characters. The player characters should always be the ones who get to save the world. And they will.
Cheers,
Cam
Because they're the player characters. The player characters should always be the ones who get to save the world. And they will.
Cheers,
Cam
Because they are the PCs ? That does not sound right; Doesn't that encourage meta-gaming ? In that case every adventure should have no hook at all it should just take place, because they are the PCs.
I mean come on be for real, the entire hook with the old man just looking up at them with bulging eyes and saying the following is kind of corny:
"I saw YOU in my visions! YOU must save the entire world!"
Doesn't the game designers have a better reason than the above as to why the PCs were chosen to play Supermen/women ? This is what I meant by DL being way too over-dramatic in some instances.
~~~
The high level ones all went to Ravenloft.
I thought Hickman yanked Soth back to Krynn ? Anyway, RavenLoft actually has the most highly developed, and realistic NPCs out of all of the D&D settings I own, with the exception of Eberron(I have not run this campaign yet.). FR is pretty good as well.
You can actually sit down and role play for X amount of hours without even touching a die when playing RavenLoft. The PCs are not one-sided, as in they are not all blindly devoted to one thing, and nothing else. Even if they do have one goal their methods vary in achieving said goal, and are usually quite creative.
Each goal is not just total world domination(Cue evil laughter: Mwah ha ha ha ha) like one of those Superman/Justice League cartoons.
~~~
Doesn't the game designers have a better reason than the above as to why the PCs were chosen to play Supermen/women ? This is what I meant by DL being way too over-dramatic in some instances.
This is what we mean when we say it's an epic campaign setting. Anybody, often the most unlikely of individuals, can realize their greater role in the fate of the world. Yes, it's metagaming, but it happens in the novels, as well, and is no more over-dramatic than the far-flung romances, world-shattering adventures, murderous betrayals, conflicted souls or mighty battles that are also common to the world of Dragonlance and others like it.
I seriously believe that if you don't like any of the above, this is not the setting for you. I'd also like to point out that you don't need to have all of those elements in your adventures for it to feel like a Dragonlance campaign, but actively avoiding them because you'd rather the heroes spend time milling about in backwater towns doing nothing very much and accomplishing very little means you're probably not a fan of the world as it is.
Cheers,
Cam
This is what we mean when we say it's an epic campaign setting. Anybody, often the most unlikely of individuals, can realize their greater role in the fate of the world.
That sounds like LoTR.
I seriously believe that if you don't like any of the above, this is not the setting for you. I'd also like to point out that you don't need to have all of those elements in your adventures for it to feel like a Dragonlance campaign, but actively avoiding them because you'd rather the heroes spend time milling about in backwater towns doing nothing very much and accomplishing very little means you're probably not a fan of the world as it is.
Actually I would just like to have a better reason than the generic "you've been chosen." Seriously, this old guy starts a bar fight, then when he gets his clock cleaned he looks up with eyes the size of quarters and says:
"YOU! I SAW YOUUUUUUUU IN MY DREAMS!"
That is about as corny, and let me just get the adventure started-ish, as you can get.
~~~
That sounds like LoTR.
Lord of the Rings has a strong influence on DL. Tracy studied LotR for quite some time.
Actually I would just like to have a better reason than the generic "you've been chosen." Seriously, this old guy starts a bar fight, then when he gets his clock cleaned he looks up with eyes the size of quarters and says:
"YOU! I SAW YOUUUUUUUU IN MY DREAMS!"
That is about as corny, and let me just get the adventure started-ish, as you can get.
~~~
The modify the adventure to where it the players are introduced in a different way.
The problem at times with using this sort of intro is that we are very scientifically minded in the modern world. We have to remember that our characters think in different terms, and so tools such as prophecy have a much greater impact.
Again, though, if you feel this part of the adventure is corny, feel free to modify it to where it works with you and your players.
That sounds like LoTR.
Right. And I do hope you didn't have a problem with Frodo.
Actually I would just like to have a better reason than the generic "you've been chosen." Seriously, this old guy starts a bar fight, then when he gets his clock cleaned he looks up with eyes the size of quarters and says:
"YOU! I SAW YOUUUUUUUU IN MY DREAMS!"
Is that how you played it out? Okay.
Cheers,
Cam
One is a minor Qualinesti noble whose tried to run away from his responsibilities only to have destiny come up and kick him in the... well you get the idea. He's had to face his heritage a couple of times now, even though they were Silvanesti in Pashin he feels that he needs to help... because who else will, and with a bit of tweaking of the entire ghost blade adventure he's wielding his maternal great grandfather's sword.
Another is a rather brash Phaethon who desperatly wanted to see the world, he's actually from the Phaethon village in SoS though he didn't know about the Tear when her left. Fate (and maybe Habbakuk) guided him to Pashin.
Now the last one, whom I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out 'why him' is the human rogue. His back story is his father was a mighty pirate (YARG!) whose ship went down in a storm when he was young. His mom, who didn't want to lose her son tot he sea like her husband moved as far away from the ocean as she could... Pashin... where he still became a shady character. Accidentally getting involved with the two above he's now a wanted man in Pashin with the Dark Knights... actually everywhere he goes he ends up with more dark knights after him. He stole an old half elven Thorn Knight's spellbook in Ak-Kurman and has been teaching himself magic (I had him wait a few levels to justify the learning curve) and had recently become a spellfiltch. He's the only one without an appearent 'why me'. Interesting side note the ship they took from Ak-Kurman to Balfor did sink with the party on it... and of course in SoS there's going to be another shipwreck it seems. Maybe his momma was right.
Anyway I'm toying with the idea of having his father still be alive with the sea elves in SoS, but I have to wait for the book to see how that will play. If I'm lucky I can find the reason he has been tapped and have it somehow relate to his father's days of buckleing swashes.
Right. And I do hope you didn't have a problem with Frodo.
I think everyone had a problem with Frodo. Heck, Frodo had a problem with Frodo.
Is that how you played it out? Okay.
No that is how it is written into the module; though not using those exact words(I was being sarcastic with the dialogue, but that is the tone of it).
1. He incites a riot
2. He either gets stomped ot he doesn't
3. He goes to get healed, or something like that.
4. He gives the player the whole "I saw you in my vision/dream", then tells them of the "key, that is not a key" which speeds them on their save-the-world quest.
Are you denying this is how the flow of the module is written(though not in the exact words I utilized.) ? It's overkill.
~~~
Well I think its up to the DM a bit to come up with specific hooks for the characters.
It is up to the DM a bit. But is not the purpose of buying a pre-made adventure so that the DM can do LESS work ? Why is everything in DL so overdone ? If they even toned it down a notch it would be a much more believable world.
Because unlike the original heroes of the lance these aren't premade characters. For my part I've managed to work out good hooks for two of my three players...
So what you are saying is even though you have spent 25 bucks on a pre-made adventure, that is supposed to be unique in appeal. You have to take X amount of time, anyway, and modify the overly dramatic/corny hooks in said adventure. You pay gaming companies to have some creativity when you buy pre-made modules, etc. If you still have to insert creativity into said module to fill the void left by corny hook, or non-existant hooks; you have basically just given them money for nothing.
~~~
The high level ones all went to Ravenloft.
I hope this was just a joke and not another attempt at "RL bashing"...
For those who wonder, RL is actually a world where most DM end up asking "what am I supposed to do once my players go past lvl 10?". Apart from specializing in "dark lords killing" (which is risky business), there aren't exactly many things to do for high level adventurers (of which there aren't many to begin with)
If you still have to insert creativity into said module to fill the void left by corny hook, or non-existant hooks; you have basically just given them money for nothing.
I think what Nived is saying is that he customized the suggested course of events to best fit his party's needs. No module, no matter how creatively written, can't be made even better by a GM willing to tailor it here and there to make it fit his group better.
You're a tough guy to please, LOI. In some threads you champion GMs tweaking and modifying the adventure as written, and in others you decry that the writer hasn't done it for you already. Am I missing the point of your post here?
I hope this was just a joke ...
No no, they did go. Lower taxes, better schools. Longer commute, but that's the price you pay.
(Come on, it's a game, it's fun. RL silliness and all. ;) )
It was a joke, but apparently not a terribly good one. Ah well, comedy was never my strong suit. :D
I hope this was just a joke and not another attempt at "RL bashing"...
For those who wonder, RL is actually a world where most DM end up asking "what am I supposed to do once my players go past lvl 10?". Apart from specializing in "dark lords killing" (which is risky business), there aren't exactly many things to do for high level adventurers (of which there aren't many to begin with)
I agree, ever since we have been playing DL it has been hack 'n' slash for the most part. When I run RL we role play for 4 hours out of a 4 1/2 hour session. The fighting only took place in the last 30 minutes of the session, and when it took place there was a "reason"(a good reason, not just the PCs were chosen out of the blue) for it. Do the math.
~~~
I think what Nived is saying is that he customized the suggested course of events to best fit his party's needs. No module, no matter how creatively written, can't be made even better by a GM willing to tailor it here and there to make it fit his group better.
You're a tough guy to please, LOI. In some threads to champion GMs tweaking and modifying the adventure as written, and in others you decry that the writer hasn't done it for you already. Am I missing the point of your post here?
If I commend someone on tweaking and modifying adventures, it does not mean that writers/game designers should stop being creative when making said adventures(You have to admit the hook with 'The Herald' is bland). There is a difference between writing a whole new adventure, or just changing a few things.
I don't mind changing a few things, but you can at least give me my money's worth by providing a good foundation/start.
~~~
I don't mind changing a few things, but you can at least give me my money's worth by providing a good foundation/start.
OK, I can agree with that. I don't remember the encounter with the Herald being that corny in the game Cam's running, but that was 12 levels ago now.
~~~
OK, I can agree with that. I don't remember the encounter with the Herald being that corny in the game Cam's running, but that was 12 levels ago now.
Didn't Cam only use the module as a guideline though ? The module is only supposed to take the PCs as far as level 7, but look at what level your team is currently. ;)
Even though I have hooks, I pretty much try to stay true to the module. Too bad staying true to the module means corny starting points like 'The Herald.'
~~~
Didn't Cam only use the module as a guideline though ?
We were in full-on playtest mode at that point, so I believe he was running pretty much as-written. But you'd have to ask him to be sure.
For instance, my wife(who some know is a DL fan) is turned off by the very same things(the elves of DL, evil for no reason characters, overly dramatic good for no reason characters). The character that came the closest to breaking the DL absolute rule was Dhamon Grimwulf, but even he does evil things for no apparent reason.
~~~
What do you mean by the DL absolute rule?
Also, if the module and DL for that matter turn you and your wife off so badly, why bother?
I agree, ever since we have been playing DL it has been hack 'n' slash for the most part. When I run RL we role play for 4 hours out of a 4 1/2 hour session. The fighting only took place in the last 30 minutes of the session, and when it took place there was a "reason"(a good reason, not just the PCs were chosen out of the blue) for it. Do the math.
It's the same group, isn't it? Why aren't your players roleplaying for four hours out of four and a half in Dragonlance? I can't believe that you're somehow straitjacketed into a different kind of behavior just because it's not Ravenloft, especially when you're the deciding factor on how much of that there is.
Cheers,
Cam
We were in full-on playtest mode at that point, so I believe he was running pretty much as-written. But you'd have to ask him to be sure.
Pretty much. I introduced specific plotlines relevant to everybody's characters and let the games take on their own sort of shape in response, but it's still recognizably Key of Destiny.
Which I'm assuming is what most people would do.
Cheers,
Cam
Even though I have hooks, I pretty much try to stay true to the module. Too bad staying true to the module means corny starting points like 'The Herald.'
The Herald's in the Sylvan Key, you know, not the Key of Destiny. You can actually begin the campaign in a completely different fashion if you don't play through SK first (and KoD gives you options to do that).
Cheers,
Cam
And actually its come together fairly organically for me, an added NPC here, an original encounter there, none of which were back breaking torture for me, and nothing compare to coming up with a 1-20 campaign on my own. Not that I can't, or haven't, but I had a lot more time in highschool and a lot less stress.
You seem to be making this all needlessly hard on yourself LoI
Though I am not personally running KoD, it would seem to me that there are plenty of opportunities to roleplay as opposed to combat. Without giving away too many spoilers, I find myself wondering what your players were doing in the sewers under Pashin when they met the lepers. Hopefully not hacking and slashing. Later chapters seem to provide similar roleplaying opportunities. Between the Mikku, Shroud, and even the Wild Orchard, chapter two is full of awesome roleplaying opportunities. In my experience as a DM, hack and slash is very rarely the only solution to a problem. At some level, negotiation and roleplay are always options.
As to the comments about the herald and hokieness of prophecy, I find myself reminded of Fizban in the Inn of the Last Home. Though he didn't come right out and say it, he more or less picked out the Heroes of the Lance to "do his bidding." These prophecies and whatnot are what draw people to Dragonlance. The tales of weak, fairly insignificant people doing heroic and world-shattering things are common in Dragonlance, and even though it seems a bit over the top at times, it's one of the reasons my players enjoy playing in the setting. In Dragonlance, my players feel like they can actually have a real, world-shaping impact on what goes on around them, and all of the fame that comes along with it.
It's the same group, isn't it? Why aren't your players roleplaying for four hours out of four and a half in Dragonlance? I can't believe that you're somehow straitjacketed into a different kind of behavior just because it's not Ravenloft, especially when you're the deciding factor on how much of that there is.
Probably because in RL the emphasis is on the 3 F...
Find out who the enemy is (in a setting where half the monsters can disguise themselves as "humans", that's not as easy as it may sound)
Find out what can hurt him (because RL modules aren't about handing out magic weapons as if they were candies, so you often have to rely on "special" materials such as cold iron)
Find out where his lair is (usually to avoid it like the plague!)
And only then can you make a reasonably successful attempt to end the (un)life of the big bad critter.
Thus, RL players are actually encouraged to rp in order to interact with NPCs and investigate their enemies.
Probably because in RL the emphasis is on the 3 F...
Find out who the enemy is (in a setting where half the monsters can disguise themselves as "humans", that's not as easy as it may sound)
Find out what can hurt him (because RL modules aren't about handing out magic weapons as if they were candies, so you often have to rely on "special" materials such as cold iron)
Find out where his lair is (usually to avoid it like the plague!)
And only then can you make a reasonably successful attempt to end the (un)life of the big bad critter.
Thus, RL players are actually encouraged to rp in order to interact with NPCs and investigate their enemies.
Exactly Mortepierre, In RL NPCs have personalities; they do not just show up because you need yet another encounter at the time. In RL players HAVE to investigate in order to find out the enemies weakness. In RL 10th-level characters are considered high-level. In RL role playing comes first, you are not fighting every other page of the adventure.
DL has potential, and I like DL. It's just that I think RL was actually BUILT for superior role playing, the setting(RL) demands nothing less
~~~
Exactly Mortepierre, In RL NPCs have personalities; they do not just show up because you need yet another encounter at the time. In RL players HAVE to investigate in order to find out the enemies weakness. In RL 10th-level characters are considered high-level. In RL role playing comes first, you are not fighting every other page of the adventure.
DL has potential, and I like DL. It's just that I think RL was actually BUILT for superior role playing, the setting(RL) demands nothing less
Okay. Whatever. I suspect there's a lot more going on behind the scenes at your games than I'm aware of, so I'll take your word for it that you can't run your Dragonlance games the way you like your Ravenloft ones. All I can tell you is that all of my Dragonlance NPCs have personalities, as do all the ones I write up, and that combat only occurs when I decide that it does. I can only hope that you have continued success in achieving the campaign you want.
Cheers,
Cam
In RL, PC who think a keen sword and/or a few fireballs can solve any problem are going to end up dead, or branded outlaws by the very people they were seeking to protect! It's a different mindset, that's all.
They really have no choice but to keep low-profile, attempt to alienate no one, and work behind the scene. Plus, any magical item they'll discover they'll probably keep at bay with a 10 ft pole just in case it's cursed or haunted or possessed (or all 3 together!).
Compare this to DL and you'll see it's a whole different world (which it should be). Take KoD for instance. Sure, you can (and need) to interact with NPC a fair bit, but there are also a number of fights you can't avoid, not to mention 2-3 artifacts (!!!) to collect on the way.
I could see something similar to RL being possible in DL, perhaps with a group of low-level PC infiltrating an evil nation at a time when both the gods and wizards are reviled but you've got to admit that's not exactly an "average" DL adventure, eh?
In effect, I would say PC are forced to rp in order to survive in RL. On the contrary, in DL they can rp, but for added "flavor".
That said, if you and your PC enjoy quality rp each and every time you play DL, so much the better! And I wish you and them the best for a long time to come
I agree wholeheartedly. Let's look at another setting built-for-role playing: Eberron seems to be taking the right path when it comes to the investigative, built-for-roleplaying style of gaming. Although I bought my Eberron Campaign Setting some time ago, I just recently purchased the new Eberron novel: The City of Towers.
Without trying to go against the CoC or anything I just want to say that the whole vibe of Eberron(from what I have read in the EBCS and the novel) seems steeped in investigation, going against the "all ugly creatures, other than half-orcs, are bad" hack'n'slash style campaigns that many other settings(with the exception of RL) embrace. The villains in Eberron are not like drones(i.e. I must be a stereotypical evil person, I must be a stereotypical evil person,... *repeat this 20 times more*), they plot within plots. Evil sometimes wears a smile instead of a scowl; evil sometimes utilizes a word, instead of a sword.
The setting, Eberron, also makes great use of the many races in the Monster Manual, giving them diverse cultures and making them more than simple-minded encounters thrown in just to help powergaming players stack up XP. The city of Sharn alone has more diversity, hence role playing opportunities, than the entirety of some other campaign settings.
Again, The Age of Mortals campaign modules are good. I just think they need more role playing opportunities(anyone that wants to run through and just cut stuff with no role playing should not be playing the D&D ROLE PLAYING GAME), and a much more reliable release schedule.
~~~
I don't consider the villains in DL to be stereotypical. Everything you said about Eberron villains or "evil people" applys to DL in my mind. Rasitlin and Dalamar were both evil, but hardly stereotypes (at least in my humble opinion).
Again, The Age of Mortals campaign modules are good. I just think they need more role playing opportunities(anyone that wants to run through and just cut stuff with no role playing should not be playing the D&D ROLE PLAYING GAME), and a much more reliable release schedule.
I think you'll definitely be pleased with Spectre of Sorrows, which has even more opportunity for role-playing than Key of Destiny. It also has no shortage of action, adventure and travel, so as not to upset the folks who continue to enjoy those aspects of Dragonlance (and which, I have to say, were true for DL before they were ever true for Eberron).
Cheers,
Cam
I don't consider the villains in DL to be stereotypical. Everything you said about Eberron villains or "evil people" applys to DL in my mind. Rasitlin and Dalamar were both evil, but hardly stereotypes (at least in my humble opinion).
The one thing I will say about Dragonlance is that the evil characters seem so much more defined than in most settings. You not only know that they do evil things, but why they do evil things.
I like that the evil characters are real people, and that sometimes they think they're doing right, but they really aren't. It's like Magneto in X-Men. He's a villain, but he's not being one just to be evil. He does what he does for the benefit of mutants.
I also like that some villains were once friends of the heroes, such as Raistlin and Kitiara.
Plus, sometimes it is hard to figure out who the villains are. When reading the Minotaur Wars, I can't tell who the villains are per se. Golgren and Nephera both seem like villains, as well as Ardnor. But what about Hotak? Is he a villain? It's hard to tell, especially with the good he's done for the empire.
The one thing I will say about Dragonlance is that the evil characters seem so much more defined than in most settings. You not only know that they do evil things, but why they do evil things.
Not to me, they all seem "evil for no, or little, reason." They take being evil too far, it's like those old Saturday morning D&D cartoons. Mina is extremely blind, and a religious lackey; Kitiara is just plain corny; and Takhisis....well let's just say I am GLAD she is dead now.
Plus, sometimes it is hard to figure out who the villains are. When reading the Minotaur Wars, I can't tell who the villains are per se. Golgren and Nephera both seem like villains, as well as Ardnor. But what about Hotak? Is he a villain? It's hard to tell, especially with the good he's done for the empire.
Now I will agree with you as far as The Minotaur Wars goes; although I could never finish the first book, I must say that even though Hotak is supposed to be evil, I kind of saw him as helping out the minotaurs themselves.
~~~
Takhisis was the Queen of Darkness, I would guess she would tend to be EVIL in a more stereotypical way, but think about the fact that she screwed EVERYBODY when she stole Krynn. Thats a memorable villain.
In the Forgotten Realms, Elaith Craulnobur is evil, but very gentlemanly and worried about the condition of elves on the mainland. Cyric is evil, but if you read how he is portrayed by Troy Denning, he is pretty entertaining, even amusing even while planning some pretty horrible things (and he starts to remind me of Loki from Norse mythology).
And to get back to Krynn . . . tell me Soth wasn't compelling.
Takhisis was the Queen of Darkness, I would guess she would tend to be EVIL in a more stereotypical way, but think about the fact that she screwed EVERYBODY when she stole Krynn. Thats a memorable villain.
What it all boils down to is another "Takhisis attempts to take over the world" plot. Not too memorable IMO.
In the Forgotten Realms, Elaith Craulnobur is evil, but very gentlemanly and worried about the condition of elves on the mainland. Cyric is evil, but if you read how he is portrayed by Troy Denning, he is pretty entertaining, even amusing even while planning some pretty horrible things (and he starts to remind me of Loki from Norse mythology).
Look at all of the "buts" in the statement above. Elaith Craulnober has depth, he is not on some grand, super-evil, take over the world scheme. Elaith thinks of his daughter first, and Elaith second. Have you ever read some of the novels with E. Craulnober in them ? His character is deep!
He's not just leading some huge army to "kill, or subjugate everyone in the world." I don't know much about Cyric, so I cannot really comment there. I will take your word for it, as far as Cyric goes.
And to get back to Krynn . . . tell me Soth wasn't compelling.
Yeah I like Soth, I like how he went out in the WoS. But I think it is moreso because he was once in RL. ;)
~~~
What it all boils down to is another "Takhisis attempts to take over the world" plot. Not too memorable IMO.
Few things are memorable when they are boiled down to anything. Just ask the Irish.
Best of luck with Eberron.
Cheers,
Cam
Few things are memorable when they are boiled down to anything. Just ask the Irish.
LoL!
Best of luck with Eberron.
Thanks Cam, I am not giving up on DragonLance just taking a break(not to mention that my players' characters are around 4th-level so they would never let me just blindside their characters like that
). I'll still be on the DL boards and such discussing campaign ideas, and pestering you for some of your gaming ideas. 
Trust and believe that the day your DragonLance SoS module drops I will be one of the first to pick it up from my FLGS.
~~~
(just messin' with ya LoI
)