Why did the Immortals interfere and sabotage/destroy the Nithian Empire?
The reason most often quoted by official sources is that they dabbled in "forbidden magics", due to the influence of Thanatos. But unless the magic of the Nithians challenged the Immortals themselves, or put the entire Multiverse in danger, I don't see how the Immortals can justify their actions under the no direct interference rule. Worse, it really seems as if the Immortals are basically just bad losers: having collectively lost the worship of the Nithian culture to Thanatos, they decide to destroy the entire culture in an amazingly selfish display of the mentality of "If they're not ours, they'll be no one's!"
Thanatos loses his followers. The other Immortals are happy with their interference and even go so far as to establish the "non-corrupt", i.e. non Thanatos-worshipping Nithian survivors in the Hollow World to bolster their faiths!
Come to think of it, when it comes to worship and the Hollow World, it seems that the Immortals worshipped by Hollow World cultures are at a rather large advantage: they cannot ever fade completely, because even if they lose all their other followers, and even if their faith in the Hollow World shrinks to a tiny number of people, their faiths can never be wiped out entirely.
While I'm on this line of thought about Immortal interference, has anyone else wondered about the changes the Immortals made to the Nucleus of the Spheres? The first time it was changed was by an Old One. This gave the Sphere of Energy an advantage, and so the other Immortals eventually changed it to leech energy "from that Sphere" (whatever that means ;) ). This seems rather unfair, since the penalty is much more powerful than the effects.
But the real problem is the third alteration, at the end of Wrath of the Immortals. Supposedly the Nucleus was changed to drain from the Sphere of Entropy. We don't know what effect this drain will have on the world. Nor do we know if the artifact still serves the Sphere of Energy, or if it has changed to somehow serve the sphere it now drains. Either way, it seems rather unfair to the Entropics - especially if the Nucleus allows users to gain immortality in the Sphere of Energy still.
Lastly, there is the Chamber of the Spheres, Rafiel's secret project to build a new, safer and more magic-based nuclear reactor/artifact. What will happen when his shamans complete this project, and start using it? Will the other Immortals take it upon themselves to change this, too, assuming that they discover its existence?
What do you think about these things?
Do you remember that in GAZ2 there's an "ancient evil empire of lizardmen" buried beneath the sands of Ylaruam (cfr the Lizardskin Bed and the Undead Lizardmen quotes)?
Do You remember that Carnifex were exiled by the Immortals and their traces on Mystara basically wiped out by them?
Do you remember that ?
Ok, my idea is that Thanatos convinced the Nithian clerics and mages to seek dark magics, and in their quests they discovered the ancient lizardmen, clearly some remnants of the ancient carnifex empire, who prolly held some dangerous secret or knowledge and shared it with the Nithians.
The Immortals intervened before it was too late and the Nithians got swallowed by the same madness that caught the Carnifex. For this reason they wiped out most of them but not all of them, and went to great lengths to erase the memory of their knowledge and existence from Mystara, because they want to guard some dark and unsettling secrets of aeons ago.
That's my idea for now.
As for the Nucleus, I should check better: I don't remember if it was a group of Immortals who changed it in the first place or the Old Ones, but I seem to recall the first one.
.The Lizardmen are an interesting idea, especially as they probably pre-date the current Immortals (look at what the immortals know of their own history in WotI) - perhaps not the Carnifex, but it would be reasonable for such ancient magics to start having effects unforseen and unforseeable by the immortals - something they woud hate.
Also, what do we know about the Lizardmen - pretty much just that some were (and still are) powerful liches - how many liches can survive for millenia without getting involved with the rest of the world? From Gaz5 we know that some Nithian royalty went the same way, perhaps they were looking to turn their entire empire into a perpetual undead realm - one that would probably (long term) spread over the entire world. And one thing the undead don't do is produce new immortals (except possibly some entropics, but that is pushign it). Such a strategy would bring immortal involvement lest they lose their supply of new recruits, and would not be clocked by the Old Ones for the same reasons...
As for the Radience - I agree with your issues, but don't have any ideas (yet)
Onto the Radiance:
While I'm on this line of thought about Immortal interference, has anyone else wondered about the changes the Immortals made to the Nucleus of the Spheres? The first time it was changed was by an Old One. This gave the Sphere of Energy an advantage, and so the other Immortals eventually changed it to leech energy "from that Sphere" (whatever that means ;) ). This seems rather unfair, since the penalty is much more powerful than the effects.
Noumenna, Hierarch of Time was the one responsible for the alteration. Draining a Sphere is impossible due to its general nature, so instead the Radiance was made to drain magic, which in general lays under the influence of Energy. Maybe this was unfair, though the Radiance presented a dangerous situation for Immortal society; one where mortals could become immortals without relying on a sponsor, which had been the only way to achieve immortality in the past. I am also wondering whether Noumenna knew what he was doing, tampering with the artifact of an Old One, and perhaps the result was different from what he intended...
But the real problem is the third alteration, at the end of Wrath of the Immortals. Supposedly the Nucleus was changed to drain from the Sphere of Entropy. We don't know what effect this drain will have on the world. Nor do we know if the artifact still serves the Sphere of Energy, or if it has changed to somehow serve the sphere it now drains. Either way, it seems rather unfair to the Entropics - especially if the Nucleus allows users to gain immortality in the Sphere of Energy still.
G:KoA seems to suggest that the draining of Entropy was only temporary, and that the Radiance returned to draining Energy (magic) after a while. I think this was a disappointment, since as you point out, there are so many other possibilities! There seems to be a general concensus among the fans that the Radiance still drains entropy and that it will produce immortals of Entropy, with Brannart McGreggor being the most likely next candidate.
Lastly, there is the Chamber of the Spheres, Rafiel's secret project to build a new, safer and more magic-based nuclear reactor/artifact. What will happen when his shamans complete this project, and start using it? Will the other Immortals take it upon themselves to change this, too, assuming that they discover its existence?
I think the Almanacs are moving into this field, but I am way behind on reading them. The immortals will no doubt dislike Rafiel's artifact, but perhaps the embarrassment that is the Wrath of the Immortals would prevent the immortals from intervening?
Håvard
------------------ My players kindly keep out ---------------------
While I'm on this line of thought about Immortal interference, has anyone else wondered about the changes the Immortals made to the Nucleus of the Spheres? The first time it was changed was by an Old One. This gave the Sphere of Energy an advantage, and so the other Immortals eventually changed it to leech energy "from that Sphere" (whatever that means ;) ). This seems rather unfair, since the penalty is much more powerful than the effects.
But the real problem is the third alteration, at the end of Wrath of the Immortals. Supposedly the Nucleus was changed to drain from the Sphere of Entropy. We don't know what effect this drain will have on the world. Nor do we know if the artifact still serves the Sphere of Energy, or if it has changed to somehow serve the sphere it now drains. Either way, it seems rather unfair to the Entropics - especially if the Nucleus allows users to gain immortality in the Sphere of Energy still.
What do you think about these things?
We've had discussions about the NotS and CotS before, but I can't find them because the search function has been momentarily disabled.
Let me just say that there are different interpretations depending on which canon products you use. AFAIK the Glantri Gaz and WotI say two different things; the first that "agents of Energy" enchanted the Beagle's atomic reactor to be able to produce Immortals of Energy and that the other Immortals of other spheres gave it the negative side effect of the magic drain, the WotI altered that and said it was an Old One who enchanted the reactor. So it really depends on whether you use the WotI or not (I don't :D )
Lastly, there is the Chamber of the Spheres, Rafiel's secret project to build a new, safer and more magic-based nuclear reactor/artifact. What will happen when his shamans complete this project, and start using it? Will the other Immortals take it upon themselves to change this, too, assuming that they discover its existence?
This is pretty much up for interpretation since no canon material ever related the NotS and the CotS to each other. The Shadowelf Gaz suggests that the Radiance used in Glantri and the Radiance in the Soul Crystals is the same. And since Blackmoor thrived on technology salvaged from the Beagle wreckage (AFAIK) it makes sense that Rafiel's Chamber is a nuclear reactor similar to the Nucleus.
In my campaign I plan to introduce the Day of Dread caused by the drain during the war with the Master of the Desert Nomads and then, ten years later, let the PCs discover how to switch on the Chamber of the Spheres to restore magic to Mystara.
So far, I haven't decided whether the NotS or the CotS will remain able to produce new immortals of Energy after that...
:-) Jesper