Weird Question(Elemental Related) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Weird Question(Elemental Related)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
beyowulf
Feb 02, 2005 21:40:05 Something occured to me. Does an elemental in Dark Sun get spell-casting ability? According to the monster manual, it doesn't, but wouldn't it seem weird to have clerics drawing power from the elements to cast spells, but the elementals themselves not be able to do the same?
#2
dawnstealer
Feb 02, 2005 22:20:07 Especially with epic-level clerics able to become elementals, yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you want it in your campaign, do it. I'd say any of the lesser or standard elementals are just regular elementals. Greater elementals, on the other hand, are probably clerics and of considerable power, at that.
#3
pringles
Feb 02, 2005 22:21:34 Not enough intelligence and wisdom
#4
zombiegleemax
Feb 03, 2005 1:02:04 then you MODIFY the stats to suit the needs of the campaign.
#5
jaanos
Feb 03, 2005 17:40:06 Give them abilities that allow them to cast divine spells as a spell like ability. I'd suggest level of caster equal to hit dice of elemental.
#6
superpriest
Feb 03, 2005 18:06:40
Something occured to me. Does an elemental in Dark Sun get spell-casting ability? According to the monster manual, it doesn't, but wouldn't it seem weird to have clerics drawing power from the elements to cast spells, but the elementals themselves not be able to do the same?

Clerics get power from Elemental Planes, not elementals. Elementals should not have spells.
#7
Pennarin
Feb 03, 2005 18:16:16 I miss the point of being able to cast scorching ray when you can use your slam attack in conjunction with your Burn extraordinary ability, and at will at that.
#8
jaanos
Feb 03, 2005 19:41:25 Elementals should be have some abilities tied to divine magic. I like to think of them as natives (which they are) or weird ass petitioners, with funky powers. True, the planes is where the spells come from, but the planes are how for these creatures. I also recall in the transfromation process for dragons, they need the assistance of powerful elemental beings. Further, noting stopping elementals having levels as clerics, after all, wouldn't an earth elemental revere his homeland whence he derives his strength?

#9
Sysane
Feb 03, 2005 20:07:30
I miss the point of being able to cast scorching ray when you can use your slam attack in conjunction with your Burn extraordinary ability, and at will at that.

I don't know. A ranged touch attack that does 4d6 points of damage (with no save I might add) comes it pretty handy for those enemies beyond the reach of your slam attack IMO. ;)
#10
dawnstealer
Feb 03, 2005 21:24:03
Clerics get power from Elemental Planes, not elementals. Elementals should not have spells.

True, as long as the elemental in question is not a cleric. Since epic-level cleric/psions can become elementals, and do not lose their spellcasting abilities: yes, an elemental can potentially cast clerical spells (to answer your original question).

Do they need to? Maybe. What good is Slam going to do for you if you're trying to heal someone, dig?
#11
beyowulf
Feb 03, 2005 21:29:32
Further, noting stopping elementals having levels as clerics,

That brings up another question. Does an elemental that takes class levels as a cleric, still gain in size along with attendant bonuses to attributes as they gain more hit die? I am guessing not, but if they gain spell casting as elementals, there wouldn't be a whole lot to gain if they advance as class levels.

That'd make them too good. Am I missing something obvous here?
#12
zombiegleemax
Feb 03, 2005 22:41:15 I've thought about this, and I don't think it's standard elementals that grant the spells to priests. To circumvent this issue, just take the stats for a Primal Elemental of the appropriate type (From the Epic Level Handbook) and use them as "patrons", granting the spells to their clerics through sheer force of will. If you really feel it's necessary for the elementals to be able to cast the spells they grant (Remember, in Deities and Demigods, it clearly states that only gods with cleric levels know cleric spells, yet all gods of divine rank 1 or greater can grant spells) , just give the Primal Elementals some cleric levels.
#13
dawnstealer
Feb 03, 2005 22:58:41 As far as I know, a standard elemental cannot cast spells. The only type of elemental that can cast spells is one that used to be "human" and chose to become an elemental at epic levels.
#14
Pennarin
Feb 04, 2005 0:30:40
What good is Slam going to do for you if you're trying to heal someone, dig?

Is an elemental's psychology even that related to humanoids that it would help a cleric with some healing?

I always saw elementals as near-mindless aliens, thinking of nothing more than exercising their most basic functions (i.e. fire elemental burns things, air fly around, disturbing things, etc.)
The more intelligent elementals use better combat tactics, know more of the way of the Multiverse and their place in it, and lord over weaker elementals.

Am I wrong in my assessment?
#15
jaanos
Feb 04, 2005 2:14:10 It also clearly states that it is appropiate to give powerful elemental being and demon princes etc divine rank 0 or 1... and even the ability to grant spells, if the pantheon / setting requires it - in this case, it could be argued that it does. I'd go for most elementals being plain vanilla. The smarter and wise one that have levels as clerics... look out!

(Remember, in Deities and Demigods, it clearly states that only gods with cleric levels know cleric spells, yet all gods of divine rank 1 or greater can grant spells) , just give the Primal Elementals some cleric levels.

#16
dawnstealer
Feb 04, 2005 9:35:58
Is an elemental's psychology even that related to humanoids that it would help a cleric with some healing?

Nope, not a standard elemental, at least. The only type of elemental that has spell-casting powers is one that used to be human and, at an epic level as a psion and a cleric, chose to become an elemental. In that case, yes, I assume they would have at least some semblance of a human psyche. Otherwise (a standard elemental), it would not have spell-casting abilities, only the normal abilities of a normal elemental.
#17
jaanos
Feb 04, 2005 17:16:18 There is nothing to say that a 'standard' (ie 'naturally' occuring) elemental does NOT have divine spell casting powers. The ones presented in MM don't, but that is not to stop a DM giving them character levels, if they have the appropiate attributes.

Nope, not a standard elemental, at least. The only type of elemental that has spell-casting powers is one that used to be human and, at an epic level as a psion and a cleric, chose to become an elemental. In that case, yes, I assume they would have at least some semblance of a human psyche. Otherwise (a standard elemental), it would not have spell-casting abilities, only the normal abilities of a normal elemental.

#18
dawnstealer
Feb 04, 2005 22:37:35 Certainly not.

It's reasonable to assume that an elemental lord (if there are such things on Athas) might infuse an elemental with a bit more power if it felt the need were dire enough.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 beyowulf Feb 02, 2005 21:40:05	Something occured to me. Does an elemental in Dark Sun get spell-casting ability? According to the monster manual, it doesn't, but wouldn't it seem weird to have clerics drawing power from the elements to cast spells, but the elementals themselves not be able to do the same?
#2 dawnstealer Feb 02, 2005 22:20:07	Especially with epic-level clerics able to become elementals, yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you want it in your campaign, do it. I'd say any of the lesser or standard elementals are just regular elementals. Greater elementals, on the other hand, are probably clerics and of considerable power, at that.
#3 pringles Feb 02, 2005 22:21:34	Not enough intelligence and wisdom
#4 zombiegleemax Feb 03, 2005 1:02:04	then you MODIFY the stats to suit the needs of the campaign.
#5 jaanos Feb 03, 2005 17:40:06	Give them abilities that allow them to cast divine spells as a spell like ability. I'd suggest level of caster equal to hit dice of elemental.
#6 superpriest Feb 03, 2005 18:06:40	Something occured to me. Does an elemental in Dark Sun get spell-casting ability? According to the monster manual, it doesn't, but wouldn't it seem weird to have clerics drawing power from the elements to cast spells, but the elementals themselves not be able to do the same? Clerics get power from Elemental Planes, not elementals. Elementals should not have spells.
#7 Pennarin Feb 03, 2005 18:16:16	I miss the point of being able to cast scorching ray when you can use your slam attack in conjunction with your Burn extraordinary ability, and at will at that.
#8 jaanos Feb 03, 2005 19:41:25	Elementals should be have some abilities tied to divine magic. I like to think of them as natives (which they are) or weird ass petitioners, with funky powers. True, the planes is where the spells come from, but the planes are how for these creatures. I also recall in the transfromation process for dragons, they need the assistance of powerful elemental beings. Further, noting stopping elementals having levels as clerics, after all, wouldn't an earth elemental revere his homeland whence he derives his strength?
#9 Sysane Feb 03, 2005 20:07:30	I miss the point of being able to cast scorching ray when you can use your slam attack in conjunction with your Burn extraordinary ability, and at will at that. I don't know. A ranged touch attack that does 4d6 points of damage (with no save I might add) comes it pretty handy for those enemies beyond the reach of your slam attack IMO. ;)
#10 dawnstealer Feb 03, 2005 21:24:03	Clerics get power from Elemental Planes, not elementals. Elementals should not have spells. True, as long as the elemental in question is not a cleric. Since epic-level cleric/psions can become elementals, and do not lose their spellcasting abilities: yes, an elemental can potentially cast clerical spells (to answer your original question). Do they need to? Maybe. What good is Slam going to do for you if you're trying to heal someone, dig?
#11 beyowulf Feb 03, 2005 21:29:32	Further, noting stopping elementals having levels as clerics, That brings up another question. Does an elemental that takes class levels as a cleric, still gain in size along with attendant bonuses to attributes as they gain more hit die? I am guessing not, but if they gain spell casting as elementals, there wouldn't be a whole lot to gain if they advance as class levels. That'd make them too good. Am I missing something obvous here?
#12 zombiegleemax Feb 03, 2005 22:41:15	I've thought about this, and I don't think it's standard elementals that grant the spells to priests. To circumvent this issue, just take the stats for a Primal Elemental of the appropriate type (From the Epic Level Handbook) and use them as "patrons", granting the spells to their clerics through sheer force of will. If you really feel it's necessary for the elementals to be able to cast the spells they grant (Remember, in Deities and Demigods, it clearly states that only gods with cleric levels know cleric spells, yet all gods of divine rank 1 or greater can grant spells) , just give the Primal Elementals some cleric levels.
#13 dawnstealer Feb 03, 2005 22:58:41	As far as I know, a standard elemental cannot cast spells. The only type of elemental that can cast spells is one that used to be "human" and chose to become an elemental at epic levels.
#14 Pennarin Feb 04, 2005 0:30:40	What good is Slam going to do for you if you're trying to heal someone, dig? Is an elemental's psychology even that related to humanoids that it would help a cleric with some healing? I always saw elementals as near-mindless aliens, thinking of nothing more than exercising their most basic functions (i.e. fire elemental burns things, air fly around, disturbing things, etc.) The more intelligent elementals use better combat tactics, know more of the way of the Multiverse and their place in it, and lord over weaker elementals. Am I wrong in my assessment?
#15 jaanos Feb 04, 2005 2:14:10	It also clearly states that it is appropiate to give powerful elemental being and demon princes etc divine rank 0 or 1... and even the ability to grant spells, if the pantheon / setting requires it - in this case, it could be argued that it does. I'd go for most elementals being plain vanilla. The smarter and wise one that have levels as clerics... look out! (Remember, in Deities and Demigods, it clearly states that only gods with cleric levels know cleric spells, yet all gods of divine rank 1 or greater can grant spells) , just give the Primal Elementals some cleric levels.
#16 dawnstealer Feb 04, 2005 9:35:58	Is an elemental's psychology even that related to humanoids that it would help a cleric with some healing? Nope, not a standard elemental, at least. The only type of elemental that has spell-casting powers is one that used to be human and, at an epic level as a psion and a cleric, chose to become an elemental. In that case, yes, I assume they would have at least some semblance of a human psyche. Otherwise (a standard elemental), it would not have spell-casting abilities, only the normal abilities of a normal elemental.
#17 jaanos Feb 04, 2005 17:16:18	There is nothing to say that a 'standard' (ie 'naturally' occuring) elemental does NOT have divine spell casting powers. The ones presented in MM don't, but that is not to stop a DM giving them character levels, if they have the appropiate attributes. Nope, not a standard elemental, at least. The only type of elemental that has spell-casting powers is one that used to be human and, at an epic level as a psion and a cleric, chose to become an elemental. In that case, yes, I assume they would have at least some semblance of a human psyche. Otherwise (a standard elemental), it would not have spell-casting abilities, only the normal abilities of a normal elemental.
#18 dawnstealer Feb 04, 2005 22:37:35	Certainly not. It's reasonable to assume that an elemental lord (if there are such things on Athas) might infuse an elemental with a bit more power if it felt the need were dire enough.