We can derive some answers to this question from the books themselves, which sometimes talk about forests in their "Geography of" sections.
Wrath of the Immortals dealt with this to some extent with its 24 miles per hex map, showing us that the forests of the Northern Reaches, Heldann and Wendar are fully evergreen. It also shows the northern Darokin forest (next to the Broken Lands) as well as Glantri's forests (what little show up on a 24 mile per hex map, that is) as evergreen. Rockhomes forests are too small to show up on the map. Lastly, the forests of the main Alphatian continent are entirely evergreen.
Champions of Mystara continues this by showing the edge of Hule's Darkwood as being (mostly) evergreen.
Finally, Poor Wizard's Almanacs I and III show us the divide between deciduous and evergreen on the Isle of Dawn, Bellissaria and Western Skothar. Poor Wizard's Almanac II shows us Hule's Darkwood and the Isle of Dawn again, while leaving the Northern Reaches with deciduous trees - presumably a mapping error.
Conclusions:
Glantri
Page 7 of GAZ3 explains in detail the types of trees that grow in Glantri. Basically, the trees of Erewan and Belcadiz are oak, while the rest are mostly a mix of evergreen trees. Combined with the information from the Wrath of the Immortals map, we can safely say that aside from the Elven oaks, all of the forests marked on Glantri's 8 mile per hex map are evergreen.
Rockhome
Page 47 of GAZ6 tells us about Rockhome's trees, but it is somewhat ambiguous. It says that Rockhome's mountains are heavily forested, mostly with pines, but for the lowlands it fails to mention the type of tree. Considering Rockhome's latitude, it could go either way, but it seems that it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that most of Rockhome's forests are evergreen, and to mark Rockhome's forest hexes as such.
The Northern Reaches
Page 8 of GAZ7 suggests that the slopes of the Makkres and Hardanger Mountains are covered in conifers, while the rest of the forests are mixed conifer-broadleaf forests. It sounds like these forests could be marked as either deciduous or evergreen - it could go either way. Wrath of the Immortals marked them as evergreen.
Darokin
I couldn't find any information in the Darokin Gazetteer about forest types. If we are to take Wrath's map at face value, then it would appear that the Broken Lands' Black Hills, and adjoining hills in Darokin, are coniferous forested hills.
Alphatia
I couldn't find any evidence in Dawn of the Emperors about forest types, though I may have missed something as there is a lot to look through. The altitude would seem to support most of the continent's forests being evergreen, as the Wrath of the Immortals map suggests.
The Hollow World
The only Hollow World map with evergreen forests marked on is HWR3 The Milenian Empire. In the far south of Milenia, forests change to predominantly conifers. The altitude of this area, a little north of the city of Laroun, would imply that the lands southwest of Lake Agrisa and all the lands on the south Sea of Yr have coniferous forests. Also the forested area enclosed by mountains southeast of Hapta in the Nithian Empire is likely evergreen, though the climate of south Nithia probably means that the forests around Lake Thufu are deciduous. It's important to remember that with the Hollow World, though, that climate and seasons are far less related to latitude than on the Outer World; it seems often cultures have had their climate "localised" specially in order to suit their original Outer World conditions.
In the north, the Antalian Wastes, the Beastmen Wastes and all the lands north of the Azcan Empire probably have coniferous forests. But this is just a guess based on those cultures and the latitude.
Inconsistencies
Wrath of the Immortals' 48 mile per hex map incorrectly places an evergreen forest southwest of Akesoli, bordering the Atruaghin plateau. Firstly, there is not much of a forest here according to the other sources we have for this area - including Wrath's own 24 mile per hex map! Secondly, it seems marginally too far south, going by the evergreen-deciduous separation line as it seems to apply to the rest of the Known World.
A Final Note
During my research for this article, I had to take a closer look at some tree related words that it turns out I really didn't know half as well as I thought I did. My father set me straight, as follows:
- Deciduous trees are those which lose their leaves every year in autumn.
- Evergreen trees are those which have green leaves all year round. They do lose their leaves, and they get replaced by new ones, but it's not a yearly thing.
- Coniferous trees, or conifers, are those which grow cones for seed distribution.
In other words, deciduous and evergreen are effectively opposites, while either can be coniferous. Thus, for example, a quick check of my Oxford Dictionary tells me that larches are deciduous coniferous trees. (That example was the source of my initial confusion.)
In fact, most conifers are evergreen, and that's why they are sometimes used as synonyms. However, it's more correct to talk about evergreens and deciduous trees.
That's all for now. I intended to get this posted hours ago, but the research combined with some distractions made it take far longer.
So - any comments, corrections or suggestions?
thanks for teaching me some new english words! It's been a while
I agree with most of what you've written. It seems reasonable to look at RW equivalent countries when talking about Mystara's forests. However, many RW countries have a mix of evergreen and deciduous trees, so the same is probably true for the Known World. When marking maps though, going by the dominant type of tree probably makes sense. Where inconsistencies are involved, this could be explained by a large presence of the other type of trees, or in the case of southern Darokin/athruagin, perhaps there are a few evergreen trees there, but possibly not enough that they should show up on a map. The maps from WotI did seem to overuse the evergreen tree symbol a bit, didnt they?
Håvard
Overall I think they did a good job. The Atruaghin plateau/Darokin/Sind border bit is the only area I don't really like. But it's certainly far from being out of the question - altitude-wise it's only marginally lower than the other marked evergreens. I'd be interested to hear what Andrew, champion of the clans if I recall, has to say about the possibility of some evergreen hexes at the northern tip of the plateau.
As for the dominant type, I agree entirely. The problem is that marking hexes one way or another gives a very strong mental image, I think. In the future, perhaps it would behove mappers to write short terrain descriptions to go with their legend/key...
Glad I could teach you a new word by the way, Håvard. Teaching English to non-native speakers is, in fact, my current profession. Hehe, ufortunately I don't have any students as good as some of you guys here, though. :D
One other thing to add here is that, with Gaz1, they apparently didn't have the forested hill hex (deciduous or otherwise), and the description of the terrain in Gaz1 indicates that most if not all of the hills there should be forested hills. Someone pointed this out not too long ago here on the board (sorry I can't recall quite who- I don't remember which thread it was pointed out in.)
Rockhome
Page 47 of GAZ6 tells us about Rockhome's trees, but it is somewhat ambiguous. It says that Rockhome's mountains are heavily forested, mostly with pines, but for the lowlands it fails to mention the type of tree. Considering Rockhome's latitude, it could go either way, but it seems that it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that most of Rockhome's forests are evergreen, and to mark Rockhome's forest hexes as such.
I was always under the impression that Rockhome was at a higher altitude than surrounding areas, as well, so evergreen hexes would probably be most likely.
Inconsistencies
Wrath of the Immortals' 48 mile per hex map incorrectly places an evergreen forest southwest of Akesoli, bordering the Atruaghin plateau. Firstly, there is not much of a forest here according to the other sources we have for this area - including Wrath's own 24 mile per hex map! Secondly, it seems marginally too far south, going by the evergreen-deciduous separation line as it seems to apply to the rest of the Known World.
Never noticed that before- I hardly ever look at the 48 mile hex map from Wrath.
Got no explanations. There is a little bit of forest there, as seen on the 24 mile map from Wrath, as well as the Trail Maps and Atruaghin maps, but I'd say it's probably deciduous forest, not evergreen. If you wanted to go with evergreen, I could see maybe tying it in with the magic used to create the plateau (not natural) but that's all.
I might be inclined to make the Elk Clan's forests evergreen, though. I think it would fit more with their RW analogues (Northeastern Native American tribes), and the height of the plateau might make a big difference, climate-wise (it's what, half a mile high? Huge.)
I'm a long time player and lurker on these boards but finally decided to add something.
The Mystara map is based upon ancient earth, and the Known World is set in what would be North America. Roughly, Thyatis and Karameikos would be set in the areas or Florida and Mississippi. I used to live in Mississippi and the forests are mostly evergreens, lots of pines. And further west into Texas where I grew up is mostly pine with some oaks. I currently live in the midwest, very roughly where Darokin would be set and there is a great mix of trees. In my back yard there are more cedars and pines than oaks.
Granted the geography of the KW is very different from modern North America, but it could help.
In my game, the forests of Karameikos and Darokin and mostly evergreens with a good healthy mix of deciduous and conifers. When making a map I use the evergreen symbols, but during play I try to describe a mix.
Thanks
Larches - yes larches are deciduous confiers, however IIRC they are (pretty nearly) the ONLY deciduous conifers - nearly all the others are evergreen.
Now, just to make life interesting, in temperate climates evergreen woodlands are pretty much all coniferous - the few non-coniferous evergreens (holly etc) don't form woodlands, they form small patches in a woodland.
Tropical and sub-tropical forests tend to be evergreen - probably because they don't have cold winters....
As such, in temperate lands (i.e. the Known World) Evergreen will = coniferous and Deciduous will = broad-leaves. (All woods tend to have a mixture, this will be what is predominant).
Add in altitude effects and we can be really confused about what grows where...
Oh yes, as for what the flora is in those parts of the map now, yes the map ws based on the world, it was based on the world ? million years ago - just after the supercontinent break-up - so looking at the current flora and temperatures is not a guide, we need to find a plate tectonics expert who can say where (latitude) the plates where when, and what the climate would have been - sorry.
It does seem that the two hex types are really only a guide. In practice most forests are going to have a mix of trees, and the hexes should be used just to show the predominant type - though the predominance may be minor or major, depending on latitude, climate, region, etc.
In the end, I think the best thing to do would be to note these points along with our maps.
Talking of which...
:D *Sneaks back into the shadows*
Håvard
I've just been having a look at the Alphatian Empire, and what evidence there is for types of forest there.
Alphatia
As noted above, Alphatia's forests are apparently entirely evergreen. It seems to fit with the latitude. Any thoughts?
Alatian Islands
According to all the official maps, these islands are deciduous forest. However, Dawn of the Emperors Book I, page 61: "All are hilly islands with poor soil and tough, durable tracts of pine forest." Hmmm... These islands are situated around the 30 degrees North line, mostly further south than Ierendi and Minrothad. That should make them rather warm. Added to that, the islands are not particularly high. It seems much more likely their forests would be deciduous.
The Poor Wizard's Almanac actually confirms this, noting that the Alatians have "some tropical trees for shade and fruit".
Bellissaria
The Wrath of the Immortals map shows all the forests as deciduous, but only shows the western part of the continent. Poor Wizard's Almanac I has just two 72 mile hexes of forests in northern Notrion evergreen, and the rest deciduous. It sounds reasonable given the latitude.
Esterhold
The Poor Wizard's Almanac shows the whole peninsula with evergreen forests. Poor Wizard's Almanac III extends this to the adjacent area on Skothar, north of the Steppes of Jen, with the area south of the steppes decidous.
Isle of Dawn
Wrath of the Immortals shows us that the forests from Newkirk north are all evergreen, and the Almanacs seem to agree. The latitude coincides with the Northern Reaches and Alphatia, so I suppose it should be about right.
Right then, I have some editing to do. ;)
One other thing: In starting to do some mapping of my own (using Hexmapper), I realized that I didn't recall seening hexes in the traditional style for grassy hills, either in the various hex sets available for the program or in maps that I had seen in products or on the web. It seems like this would be a valuable hex type and I intend to make one for my own purposes. Any thoughts on why you don't see them generally?
Gordon
Got no explanations. There is a little bit of forest there, as seen on the 24 mile map from Wrath, as well as the Trail Maps and Atruaghin maps, but I'd say it's probably deciduous forest, not evergreen. If you wanted to go with evergreen, I could see maybe tying it in with the magic used to create the plateau (not natural) but that's all.
I might be inclined to make the Elk Clan's forests evergreen, though. I think it would fit more with their RW analogues (Northeastern Native American tribes), and the height of the plateau might make a big difference, climate-wise (it's what, half a mile high? Huge.)
I finally got access to my copy of GAZ14 again (just player's book -argh!). Interestingly, it corroborates your idea for the Elk Clan's forests on p. 56.
It also mentions on p. 42 that the lands of the Children of the Turtle are dominated by huge pines. These pines are the source of that clan's long canoes. However, the Children of the Tiger appear to live in a much more dense, jungle-like forest.
More on this later, I have to go out now.
Going back to your original confusion between tree types, the symbols used (chosen by TSR/WotC) don't help. Although they are supposed to represent deciduous/evergreen, the drawings are broadleaf/coniferous.
Now in temperate climbs the majority of evergreen trees are conifers (and all evergreen woodlands are conifers - so far as I know the other evergreens don't naturally form woodlands) but in tropical climbs nearly all trees are evergreen broadleafs (no winter to make them need to shed at the same time).
If people look at the maps they are likely to think broadleaf/conifer even if they know better - and thus will be seriously puzzled by seeing tropical rainforests marked with the conifer symbol as evergreen...
(OK I posted most of the above before - but I wanted to explain my reasoning)
What I suggest is to do this one major edit of the maps yourself - and re-define the symbols broadleaf/conifer - you will find this much easier to work out from textual descriptions.
However, the solution is already in the system: tropical rainforests are marked as jungles, right? Aren't they one and the same thing?
Thus we have three symbols to mark forests, effectively split into high altitude/latitude, medium altitude/latitude, and low latitude forests. It seems to me that there's less of a need to change the actual symbols than to change the names of the symbols, or the extended descriptions. Any suggestions?
tropical rainforests are marked as jungles, right? Aren't they one and the same thing?
That's a judgement call, but technically "No".
Jungle is usually interpreted to mean very heavy ground cover - the traditional sort of growth that you need to hack your way through with a machete as in a lot of films.
Tropical rainforests usually have quite light ground-cover except where a tree has fallen making a break in the canopy - there is just not enough light getting through to support jungle-type growth. Admittedly this varies, and it can be quite thick - but you shouldn't normally need to hack your way through - walking works on its own.
That's a judgement call, but technically "No".
Jungle is usually interpreted to mean very heavy ground cover - the traditional sort of growth that you need to hack your way through with a machete as in a lot of films.
Tropical rainforests usually have quite light ground-cover except where a tree has fallen making a break in the canopy - there is just not enough light getting through to support jungle-type growth. Admittedly this varies, and it can be quite thick - but you shouldn't normally need to hack your way through - walking works on its own.
This is an interesting topic. It's obvious that the hexes as designed don't necessarily correspond with the science (or reality) of forests in the real world. My aim is therefore to come up with descriptions for each hex that gets around these shortcomings, while trying not to get too technical.
Anyway, I noticed that the word jungle doesn't come up much in discussions of forests and forest "biomes". So I searched for a definition, and found the following:
The word jungle refers usually to a forest. It originated from a Sanskrit word jangala, meaning wilderness. In many languages of the Indian subcontinent, including Indian English it is generally used to refer to any wild, untended or uncultivated land, including forest, scrub, or desert landscapes.
In other English speaking countries, it has come to have a generic meaning of dense forest, or a technical term for describing the forest biome rainforest. This refers to a forest of densely tangled plants (trees, vines, grasses and reeds). As a forest biome it is present in both equatorial and tropical climatic zones. The jungle has high biodiversity. The dense "jungle" of popular concept is associated with preclimax stages of the rainforest.
I don't know enough about this to make a judgement call on the validity of this, but it looks good.
From my research on biomes, it really seems that we should have three hex types: tropical (rain)forest, temperate forest, and boreal forest. Remembering that the hexes are symbolic, it shouldn't be too big a stretch to apply these definitions to the current jungle, "deciduous" and "evergreen" hexes.
I'm starting to understand why TSR avoided this whole issue by labelling both types of forest hexes simply as "Forest"! :P
Remembering that the hexes are symbolic, it shouldn't be too big a stretch to apply these definitions to the current jungle, "deciduous" and "evergreen" hexes.
I think this is the way to go, IMO, using your maps with the evergreen hexes of course. Perhaps short foot-notes at the bottom of the maps can give info about undergrowth or other out-of-the-ordinary elements.
I hope everything's okay in Andrewland! ;)
In KoA supplement for Karameikos it describes the types of forest found. With Pine Forest in the Northern parts being the dominate species and along the hillsides, whilst along the southern coast Oak is the dominate species. Or just give you a headache as it doesn't give a boundary as to where which is the dominate forest type 
On the Children of the Turtle note, why they live amongst pines. The culture they are based on are the native american peoples who can be found living along the NW Pacific Rim where Conifers are the dominate species.
Or just blame Atrughan, as he shaped the region for the tribes. Recreating as best as possible their original habitat that was destroyed in the past.
I was hoping for Andrew to make some comments about the Children of the Turtle living in pine forests, but he doesn't seem to have been around much lately.
I hope everything's okay in Andrewland! ;)
Sorry I've been quiet lately- social life has been unusually active, and haven't found a lot of time to devote to more insightful observances and posts hereabouts.
As PointMan points out, the pine forest cover would most closely match with the RW analogue of the Children of the Turtle as Northwestern Coastal tribes, although the proximity of the Turtle tribal lands on the coast would seem to indicate that their forests should actually be more deciduous, at least at the coastal elevations. As a California transplant, I should be able to better comment on the types of flora present hereabouts, but I can't with any real authority, sadly. It seems to me that, coastally, at least, we do have a lot of deciduous trees, but that the elevation in certain areas rises pretty sharply from sea level, and its not unusual to find more pine/evergreen types of flora not far from the coast. Again, I can't say that with any authority, and in any case, that shouldn't necessarily apply to the sea-level tribe lands of the Turtle clan. IE, maybe the elevation rises steeply as you get away from the coast (resulting in the pine forests), but it shouldn't be the case necessarily along the coast where the Turtle tribes actually live.
Given that the Gaz describes those forests as being pine, however, I'd have to say it's probably a localized odd weather phenomenon, possibly caused by Atruaghin's magic, or some other Elemental Planar type of phenomenon (similar to the causes of the Ylari desert, though of different origins). Possibly there is something going on underneath that portion of the Known World in the Shadowdeep? I don't know.
As for the Tiger Clan's jungle type domains- I assume that the idea is supposed to be something akin to the Central American (Mayan/Aztec) sorts of flora, although such wouldn't quite fit with the evergreen forests of the Turtle clan. Again, it could be a (very) localized phenomenon, or it could simply be a jungle in the loose sense of the word as you've found it defined- ie, very heavily overgrown areas of evergreen. Kind of odd, I'd think, as evergreens don't typically have the broad canopies that deciduous trees have that would block out light and result in the kind of overgrown under biomes that one associates with equatorial rain forest "jungles", but once more, I'm not exactly an expert.
Something I just thought of, and I don't have my Darokin Gaz handy, but does it mention in Gaz11 what kind of flora are present in southeastern Darokin and/or the Malpheggi swamp? If so, we might be able to piece together some kind of idea of what should be there, or better justify why/how the diversity is there (ie, perhaps the whole Malpheggi Swamp/Canolbarth runoff is related?)
Personally, I'd be inclined to ignore the mention of pine trees in the Children of the Turtle entry, make all of that deciduous forests, getting more thickly overgrown and jungle-like the further inland you go, and base the Turtle Clan more closely on Southern Coastal native American tribes as opposed to the decidedly Northwestern Coastal slant that they're given in Gaz14. There are enough similarities between the various coastal cultures, not to mention that they are only given a very broad overview in Gaz14, that it wouldn't be too difficult a transition to make.
Hmm... all this talk makes me inclined to get back to developing the Clans more again. I really need to stop stalling on that project...
I was hoping for Andrew to make some comments about the Children of the Turtle living in pine forests, but he doesn't seem to have been around much lately.
I hope everything's okay in Andrewland! ;)
Sorry I've been quiet lately- social life has been unusually active, and haven't found a lot of time to devote to more insightful observances and posts hereabouts.
As PointMan points out, the pine forest cover would most closely match with the RW analogue of the Children of the Turtle as Northwestern Coastal tribes, although the proximity of the Turtle tribal lands on the coast would seem to indicate that their forests should actually be more deciduous, at least at the coastal elevations. As a California transplant, I should be able to better comment on the types of flora present hereabouts, but I can't with any real authority, sadly. It seems to me that, coastally, at least, we do have a lot of deciduous trees, but that the elevation in certain areas rises pretty sharply from sea level, and its not unusual to find more pine/evergreen types of flora not far from the coast. Again, I can't say that with any authority, and in any case, that shouldn't necessarily apply to the sea-level tribe lands of the Turtle clan. IE, maybe the elevation rises steeply as you get away from the coast (resulting in the pine forests), but it shouldn't be the case necessarily along the coast where the Turtle tribes actually live.
Given that the Gaz describes those forests as being pine, however, I'd have to say it's probably a localized odd weather phenomenon, possibly caused by Atruaghin's magic, or some other Elemental Planar type of phenomenon (similar to the causes of the Ylari desert, though of different origins). Possibly there is something going on underneath that portion of the Known World in the Shadowdeep? I don't know.
As for the Tiger Clan's jungle type domains- I assume that the idea is supposed to be something akin to the Central American (Mayan/Aztec) sorts of flora, although such wouldn't quite fit with the evergreen forests of the Turtle clan. Again, it could be a (very) localized phenomenon, or it could simply be a jungle in the loose sense of the word as you've found it defined- ie, very heavily overgrown areas of evergreen. Kind of odd, I'd think, as evergreens don't typically have the broad canopies that deciduous trees have that would block out light and result in the kind of overgrown under biomes that one associates with equatorial rain forest "jungles", but once more, I'm not exactly an expert.
Something I just thought of, and I don't have my Darokin Gaz handy, but does it mention in Gaz11 what kind of flora are present in southeastern Darokin and/or the Malpheggi swamp? If so, we might be able to piece together some kind of idea of what should be there, or better justify why/how the diversity is there (ie, perhaps the whole Malpheggi Swamp/Canolbarth runoff is related?)
Personally, I'd be inclined to ignore the mention of pine trees in the Children of the Turtle entry, make all of that deciduous forests, getting more thickly overgrown and jungle-like the further inland you go, and base the Turtle Clan more closely on Southern Coastal native American tribes as opposed to the decidedly Northwestern Coastal slant that they're given in Gaz14. There are enough similarities between the various coastal cultures, not to mention that they are only given a very broad overview in Gaz14, that it wouldn't be too difficult a transition to make.
Hmm... all this talk makes me inclined to get back to developing the Clans more again. I really need to stop stalling on that project...
If you are English look at areas in the Lake District, where high rainfall creates an abundance of undergrowth mainly Mosses and ferns in Oak forests, these can give an impression of jungle like terrain.
Broadly speaking when looking at planning terrain types if possible base it on a RW area that fits the description. For me Karameikos is similar to the Adriatic coast of Former Yugoslavia, Glantri is somewhere like Romania or Hungary, etc.