I've been looking through this spreadsheet, trying to work it out. Specifically, I'm interested in using it to (re)calculate the Known and Hollow World nations.
Now from what I have gathered so far, it seems that it requires the following:
- judgement calls on what terrain is settled, borderland and wilderness)
- population figures for each village, town and city marked on the map
- data or guesses about mining efforts
- data or guesses/deductions about military forces.
In other words, if two of us were to calculate the population for the same country, we might well come up with two rather different figures.
So, my question here is this: what work have people done on this before? I would be very interested to see anyone's spreadsheet/work on any country they've tried running through the sheet.
One more question: how does the spreadsheet work when dealing with non-standard populations, such as dwarves, for example, who presumably should be more prolific in mountain tiles than humans? Has anyone tried running Rockhome through the spreadsheet to see what it comes up with?
Apologies if this has been talked to death already. I realise that we inherited the spreadsheet years ago, and I have seen some mention of it here and on the list, but no direct talk about it yet. And I'm very interested in using it to help with a certain project I'm doing. :D
In other words, if two of us were to calculate the population for the same country, we might well come up with two rather different figures.
I've been tinkering with it recently (based on Mystaros' suggestion) and have come up with the same conclusion. I even ran through some of the other examples on the Vaults (Bruce's City-States, in particular) and came up with very different conclusions. Sometimes they were in the same ballpark, sometimes way off.
So, my question here is this: what work have people done on this before? I would be very interested to see anyone's spreadsheet/work on any country they've tried running through the sheet.
I've got some notes around here. If I get a chance later today, I'll post what I've come up with.
One more question: how does the spreadsheet work when dealing with non-standard populations, such as dwarves, for example, who presumably should be more prolific in mountain tiles than humans? Has anyone tried running Rockhome through the spreadsheet to see what it comes up with?
Not yet, but from the notes in the source info (Dragon #189-191), Bruce mentions that dwarves would ignore penalties from Mountain hexes and elves from Forest hexes- though he doesn't specifically go into what that means. I'd imagine it means that Heavy forest and Mountain aren't limited to borderland and wilderness for elves and dwarves (respectively). I took it to mean (for example) that a hilly forest in an elf domain would simply be counted as a hill hex for elves, or a heavy forest as plains (rural/suburban/border/wild as location dictates), while say, a mountain hex for a dwarf could be counted as plains I suppose (again- suburband/rural/border/wild as location seems to dictate).
One thing I'd like to see (now that we're talking about it) would be rules for underground hexes- so we could work up, say, the realms of the Shadowdeep.
Not yet, but from the notes in the source info (Dragon #189-191), Bruce mentions that dwarves would ignore penalties from Mountain hexes and elves from Forest hexes- though he doesn't specifically go into what that means. I'd imagine it means that Heavy forest and Mountain aren't limited to borderland and wilderness for elves and dwarves (respectively). I took it to mean (for example) that a hilly forest in an elf domain would simply be counted as a hill hex for elves, or a heavy forest as plains (rural/suburban/border/wild as location dictates), while say, a mountain hex for a dwarf could be counted as plains I suppose (again- suburband/rural/border/wild as location seems to dictate).
There is an old thread here somewhere in which I praised Bruce's spreadsheet but as I recall it didn't get much attention. I have only used it to calculate a single dominion (a barony) but I guess it could apply to larger dominions as well. (But isn't there something about feudal taxes to an overlord in the system? Kings and emperors don't have lords)
I haven't got excel currently, so I only have a vague memory of what the spreadsheet was like, but I remember liking it.
I think Cthulhudrew's method on how to calculate demihuman settlement of mountains and woods is quite good. It allows for a greater population to survive in non-farming lands, assuming that they trade for food. But then there is another thing to consider: mining activity in Bruce's spreadsheet counts as a seperate income. If you both count dwarven mountains as plains (allowing a large population) and grant the hexes mines (because they are mountains) then the dwarves wind up with both food and money... and that is hardly fair. Or am I missing something?
:-) Jesper
The question is, is it worth going to all the effort of running countries through the spreadsheet and adjusting their populations when the results are only going to be as accurate as our guesses and estimations anyway? Given the time it seems to take to put even one small country through the sheet, probably not...
The rules probably need to change for dwarves, yes I agree. I'm not sure how much, though - mountains to plains might be a little too much of a shift, particularly when it comes to farming. After all, the dwarves of Rockhome do have relatively large plains farming areas to support the rest of the country.
Some tinkering is definitely in order there...
One thing I'd like to see (now that we're talking about it) would be rules for underground hexes- so we could work up, say, the realms of the Shadowdeep.
Underground hexes shouldn't be too much of a problem, I think. Perhaps the difference between cavern and tunnel would have to be clarified, though. And it might make sense to count even the best underground terrain as at least one level down from its upper world equivalent.
By the way - Shadowdeep? I read the thread you linked to. Also, Gwaithallin? From what I can see, these are names for the Known World's network of underground realms, and the Shadow Elf Territories respectively, but where did the names come from? Gwaithallin especially kinda has me nonplussed.
By the way - Shadowdeep? I read the thread you linked to. Also, Gwaithallin? From what I can see, these are names for the Known World's network of underground realms, and the Shadow Elf Territories respectively, but where did the names come from? Gwaithallin especially kinda has me nonplussed.
The idea of Shadowdeep originate on this forum, I believe I came up with the name.*ahem* :embarrass Gwaithallin was our attempt at making a Shadowelf translation of Shadowdeep. It is the name the Shadowelves use for this realm, and a word that has been adopted by many of the other races of the Shadowdeep aswell. All non-canon ofcourse...
And yeah, would be cool to have a spreadsheet to calculate Shadowdeep population Cthul!
Håvard